09 NFL Discussion Thread

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 1, 2009, 10:51 pm

Also, free breakfast at Denny's on Tuesday.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » February 2, 2009, 12:13 am

That was a great football game. Just a great game. Halftime show was awesome. Springsteen crotch tackling a camera is awesome. Both teams showed lots of heart. Great game.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » February 2, 2009, 12:19 am

That was a great game, I knew the Damn Steelers were gonna make us fans sweat.

Cards played a great game.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 2, 2009, 12:21 am

Yes, that was a great game, but let us not forget that free breakfast is at Denny's on Tuesday!

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » February 2, 2009, 12:27 am

Teabagged by the Boss.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » February 2, 2009, 12:28 am

Great game, lame commercials. I wouldnt buy a breakfast at Dennys and am on the fence about a free one.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » February 2, 2009, 12:31 am

Santonio Holmes was a credit to his Alma Mater.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 2, 2009, 12:36 am

The last play before halftime was just brutal.

I'm proud of the Cardinals for managing to come all the way back and take the lead to make it an exciting finish. The last quarter was outstanding. The Steelers earned the win. Fitzgerald is the best WR in the NFL.

Springsteen had some serious energy for an old man and put on a good halftime show.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 2, 2009, 12:38 am

If it hadn't been raining during Prince's performance of Purple Rain, Bruce Springsteen very well could have had the best Super Bowl halftime show ever.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 2, 2009, 12:58 am

fun game to watch! Elway can fly. Fuck Denny's!

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » February 2, 2009, 1:17 am

sarlen · Post by **sarlen** » February 2, 2009, 1:21 am

One of the best Super Bowl games I have seen, and the Boss delivered.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 2, 2009, 2:02 am

My stomach is literally still in knots. Roethlisberger has to be earning serious HoF thoughts even at such a young age. Elway had 47 4th quarter comeback wins. Roethlisberger has 19 now already...including this one on the biggest stage.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 2, 2009, 2:24 am

Yeah, 19 is incredible for such a short career. Being such a big fucker, I can see him breaking elway's record... (gotta layoff the concussions though!)

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » February 2, 2009, 2:41 am

Spang wrote:
Sueven wrote:In fact, the Pittsburgh Steelers are the best franchise in American sports. I don't think there's even another contender. It's so obvious as to not be worth arguing about.
The Boston Celtics may beg to differ.

Detroit Red Wings, too.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » February 2, 2009, 9:54 am

I thought that the game was great except for the last play of the game. I was totally shocked that they didn't even take the time to review it. I, and those around me (even die hard steeler fans), did not think that was a fumble at all. So instead of a, "damn the Cards lost" or a, "Holy Shit the Hail Mary worked", I'm left with a, "WTF" kind of feeling at the end.

I did enjoy the pepsi commerical where the men were all, "I'm Ok".

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » February 2, 2009, 10:42 am

Great game indeed! Couldn't have asked for more I don't think.

The non-play stoppage type replay is suspect. In my heart, I can't possibly see the booth not being sure on that, so I am telling myself that they saw it was a fumble in those 30 seconds between the end of the play and the next snap...plus they had the time as well from the penalty calling formalities. So I'm assuming they saw it as a fumble. If memory serves, I believe the ball started forward, and his hand was pulled back which then caused the fumble instead of it being ruled as a passing motion.

Either way, it was still a fantastic game...with liberal penalty calling against both sides, that's for sure, so no one can complain about the flagging.

Favorite commercial was the boxed flowers one. That was great.

edit: Also, I'm trying to find a video of when James Harrison was called for unsportsmanlike conduct, and everyone wanted him kicked out of the game. The only videos I can find START with him picking on the guy while he is down. The reason being, I want to know if he was retaliating to a blatant attack at his knees by Francisco to attempt to end Harrison's career, or if Harrison was showing his ability to be totally classless. I'm a steelers fan, obviously, and I don't condone professional sports players losing their cool, unless their is a good reason. I played football, and the only good reason I can come up with, is if someone tried to block his knees (ie. cause serious injury to get them out of the game). If Francisco made an attempt to injure him (which I'm sure people will say he wasn't trying to), but anyone who blocks a player's knees is obviously going for at least a game ending injury, then I support the kidney punching...because as a football player, I would have done the exact same thing. But, like I said above, if Harrison was just being an asshole, then I'll happily support those saying he is an asshole.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » February 2, 2009, 1:00 pm

Kluden, I don't think it was on camera, but let's hope that Harrison was delivering some payback rather than just being an ass.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » February 2, 2009, 1:12 pm

I had no stake in this game, emotionally, beyond the usual wanting Winnow's team to lose vs liking the underdog winning internal drama. With that in mind, I had a few thoughts on the game afterwards:

1) Dirtiest Superbowl (without the Patriots) ever- The Steelers started the dirty play, but the Cards jumped right in when they started to get pissed. Honestly, Holmes should have been tossed for punching that guy and the chop block, comming from a vet like James was inexcusable. I don't know if the head coach rivalry was the catalyst for it, but for two teams that never play each other, you would have thought that Pitt was playing the Ravens with all the extra curricular bullshit going on.

2) Uneven Officiating- I am really of the opinion that the refs were in the tank for Pitt. The INT runback, while an amazing play, had three obvious blocks in the back. There were some other weak calls that submarined/sustained a couple drives, particularly the defensive holding calls in the second half, especially given how Pitts DBs were getting away with mugging the Card WRs all game. There were a couple head scratchers against Pitt as well, but the disparity was deffinately in their favor. Some of the reviews and non reviews were odd with poor results, too. I think that Pitt had the TD on the first drive, but clearly did not have it on the INT return, for one example.

3) Cards did not deserve to win- Wissenhunt made a couple big mistakes that cost the Cards the game. First major one was wasting the timeout on the 3rd and forever play. You are not going to get the 1st down, just eat the delay of game and bank the timeout for later on. Second one that jumped out at me was the wierd screen thing at the end of the first half that got picked off and ran back. You do not call that sort of play in that situation, because if it is picked off (and given the rushed nature of that drive, odds were high) it is a free sprint to the end zone and a game crushing momentum shift going into the half. You call an outside corner route and take the three points if it is not there. Total coaching failure there, as instead of going into half tying things up and all the momentum, they essentially had a ten point swing happen. Finally, your defense has been having the most success with soft pressure on Rothlessburger all day and on the final drive where you cannot afford to give up the big play, you run nothing but 5 man rush and man press coverage? Had they run something like a Nickle outside cover two that entire drive, they would have given up a FG, as a worst case scenario, but instead, they virtually let Big Ben walk the team down the field. I don't know how you call that kind of defense in that situation, especially when it has not worked all game.

4) Big Ben it the real deal- Say what you want about his uneven play, he produced when it mattered. That last TD pass was nothing short of amazing. He is the Anti- Aaron Rodgers; crummy stats and ugly play, except the one that counts when it counts.

5) Pitt fans are idiots- First off, this whole "largest fanbase" thing is demonstrably false. Both the Cowboys and Packers have larger nationwide followings and our fans actually continue to support the team even when they are losing. I am pretty sure the Lakers have a bigger fanbase, as well. Second, I know a lot of Pitt fans who bet on the game and lost their shirts because they were so certain that they were going to blow the doors off of Arizona. Anyone who thought that Pitt was going to cover a 6.5 spread has not been watching their games, or based their betting on what happened in the San Diego game. Not that the Cards fans are much better....

6) Cards are done- They got a long way on emotion, but the Cards folded in the end (sorry bad joke). Problem with a team living on emotion is that a major crushing loss like this one pretty much pops the bubble, especially if the vet QB who was sustaining that emotional high isn't around anymore (see Greenbay this year vs last), which it is rumored that Warner is going to retire or be traded. They had a good run, but it is over now and no one will overlook them.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 2, 2009, 1:56 pm

Kluden wrote:Great game indeed! Couldn't have asked for more I don't think.

The non-play stoppage type replay is suspect. In my heart, I can't possibly see the booth not being sure on that, so I am telling myself that they saw it was a fumble in those 30 seconds between the end of the play and the next snap...plus they had the time as well from the penalty calling formalities. So I'm assuming they saw it as a fumble. If memory serves, I believe the ball started forward, and his hand was pulled back which then caused the fumble instead of it being ruled as a passing motion.

Either way, it was still a fantastic game...with liberal penalty calling against both sides, that's for sure, so no one can complain about the flagging.

Favorite commercial was the boxed flowers one. That was great.

edit: Also, I'm trying to find a video of when James Harrison was called for unsportsmanlike conduct, and everyone wanted him kicked out of the game. The only videos I can find START with him picking on the guy while he is down. The reason being, I want to know if he was retaliating to a blatant attack at his knees by Francisco to attempt to end Harrison's career, or if Harrison was showing his ability to be totally classless. I'm a steelers fan, obviously, and I don't condone professional sports players losing their cool, unless their is a good reason. I played football, and the only good reason I can come up with, is if someone tried to block his knees (ie. cause serious injury to get them out of the game). If Francisco made an attempt to injure him (which I'm sure people will say he wasn't trying to), but anyone who blocks a player's knees is obviously going for at least a game ending injury, then I support the kidney punching...because as a football player, I would have done the exact same thing. But, like I said above, if Harrison was just being an asshole, then I'll happily support those saying he is an asshole.

I don't watch sports really at all, besides hockey from time to time, and watching the game last night I think I finally realized one of the major reasons why. The way the dudes act, roaring and pounding their chest and shit when they make a good play, makes them look like barbaric, cocky retards and I have a hard time stomaching it.

That aside, I knew little to nothing about the teams or any of the players coming into the game, and I didn't actually start watching till about half time, but I wanted Arizona to win, and not solely because they seemed to obviously be the underdog. From first glimpse of the Steelers' coach, I didn't like him at all. He looks like a arrogant prick and I really, really wanted him to lose.

I didn't see a whole lot during the game in regard to calls/flags (or lack thereof), etc that looked fishy so that was good to see, but that last play seemed a bit much. I am not intimately familiar with the rules of football, but I don't see how that could have been a fumble. If the rule is that his hand has to be moving forward in a passing motion, it most certainly seems like BS to me, because that's precisely what was about to happen had the dude behind him not grabbed his arm and stopped him from throwing the ball.

The one thing that really bugged me, I think it was the Harrison dude you are talking about. When he was pinning the guy down and then punching at him and shit as the dude was trying to walk away. I don't care what his logic was, he should have been permanently ejected from the NFL for that. Go back to the projects if you want to act like that, there should be no place in professional sports for that kind of behavior. Or the NFL can just continue to let it's ranks be polluted by degenerates like that dude.

The commercials were ok, nothing great. But to be honest, I was actually kinda on the edge of my seat during the game which was a first for me during a football game, so it was fun. Besides the few things I mentioned above I thought it was a great game.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » February 2, 2009, 2:32 pm

Guess I'm in the minority in thinking this was the worst superbowl I've ever seen. Cardinals definitely didn't deserve to win, and for the first half I was wondering how they even got there in the first place.

That and Harrison needs to be suspended & fined for being a douche.

Worst superbowl commercials E V E R.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 2, 2009, 2:44 pm

One of the writers had said something about that guy going low on Harrison before he started pounding him on the ground. It would not surprise me if that was the case since Harrison has not really done anything like that even though he gets held by the throat on nearly every single play when he rushes the QB.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » February 2, 2009, 2:45 pm

Go back to the projects if you want to act like that

Just pointing out that your statement is mildly racist, what with assuming he's from the projects because he's black.

Have a nice day

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 2, 2009, 2:48 pm

Gzette wrote:
Go back to the projects if you want to act like that
Just pointing out that your statement is mildly racist, what with assuming he's from the projects because he's black.

Have a nice day

He acted like a criminal prick trying to intimidate someone and start a fight in his place of employment, he brought that on himself. I would have said the exact same thing if he was white/asian/indian/whatever. His behavior would fit right in there. Pretty simple.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 2, 2009, 2:51 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:One of the writers had said something about that guy going low on Harrison before he started pounding him on the ground. It would not surprise me if that was the case since Harrison has not really done anything like that even though he gets held by the throat on nearly every single play when he rushes the QB.

Still, that's no excuse for him to act the way he did, at all. If I went and punched someone at my job because they did something shitty to me or made my job harder (happens to all of us, I'm sure), I would get fired promptly, and it should be no different for this guy, no matter how much of an important asset he is to the team.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 2, 2009, 2:57 pm

If someone did something they knew could destroy your career, then would you be apt to do something to hurt them?

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » February 2, 2009, 3:00 pm

He acted like a criminal prick trying to intimidate someone and start a fight in his place of employment, he brought that on himself. I would have said the exact same thing if he was white/asian/indian/whatever. His behavior would fit right in there. Pretty simple.

keep telling yourself that

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 2, 2009, 3:10 pm

Funny that there were no posts like that around here when Midnyte and Funk left. Now that at least one of them is back hey... Just like the 'good ole days'. Grats!

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 2, 2009, 3:19 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:If someone did something they knew could destroy your career, then would you be apt to do something to hurt them?

Probably not, because that could have equal consequences, and it would be all my own fault. And judging by the way that the dude he was beating on was acting (scared and surprised, imo) I wouldn't say his intentions were to wreck anyone's career.

Funny how a "professional" acts like a criminal asshole and somehow that turns into me being racist, I

you guys.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 2, 2009, 3:21 pm

The crosscheck by Krechensky was over the line. He can take that attitude back to the projects.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 2, 2009, 3:21 pm

Canelek wrote:The crosscheck by Krechensky was over the line. He can take that attitude back to the projects.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 2, 2009, 3:22 pm

Hold on a sec...you watch HOCKEY and are appalled at an NFL player's action for using an open hand to punch someone that has hard plastic padding on their body? Are you retarded or are you a Brown's fan?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 2, 2009, 3:24 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Hold on a sec...you watch HOCKEY and are appalled at an NFL player's action for using an open hand to punch someone that has hard plastic padding on their body? Are you retarded or are you a Brown's fan?

That behavior is acceptable and expected in hockey (and is part of the reason I watch it!). As far as I understand it is exactly the opposite in football. If fighting was acceptable in football I wouldn't have said a word about it.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 2, 2009, 3:25 pm

Aren't those two the same things? Regardless... It looked like obvious sarcasm to me.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » February 2, 2009, 4:19 pm

Disclaimer: I was pulling for the Steelers. My fiance being from that area is a huge fan and I was cheering with her.

Fan loyalty: I don't think this is a worthy subject for a pissing contest. Steeler fans to me seem like Edmonton Oiler or Montreal Canadien fans in the NHL, or a Yankees fan in MLB: they aren't happy with anything less than a champion, because they are used to it and think its their right. In the NFL there are a handful of teams that define the league: the Cowboys, the Packers, the Bears, the 49ers and the Steelers. These teams all have a mystique and almost a legend behind them that most others lack. They are institutions. People know who they are, love them or hate them. You can maybe add one or two more to the list but not very many.

Harrison: I don't know what all happened before he blew up but he should have been ejected. I know he takes a lot of shit (you could see that from the number of holds that were flagged because of him) but by the same token you know he has to be used to dealing with it. There may have been (probably was) something extra/dangerous that caused him to snap but he did snap. I still thought it was awesome the way he ran back that INT 100 yds, sumersaults into the endzone, landing head-first and laying there like he was dead while the booth was reviewing it.

Dirty play in general: I didn't think it was worse than most other games. There were a lot of personal fouls called but I almost expect that when two young teams are playing a championship game: its the pinacle of their careers and there is no guarantee they're ever going to be there again, so I expect a lot of emotional reaction. Its hard to tell as a fan watching on TV, where you're limited in some respects to what you can see (especially because the networks seem to intentionally shy away from a lot of the cheapshots/instigation on replays if they can). That also applies to the "who started it" crap: we can't see it all (unless we're there and even then you can't see everything that goes on) so we don't know.

Reffing: I disagree with Jice in that the refs seemed to be pulling for Pittsburgh. I thought it was pretty even but the Cards were more undisciplined and had a lot to contend with (i.e. the holds called on the guys trying to block Harrison).

Warner's incomplete passes/fumbles: I thought they should have reviewed that last one but even the Cards didn't seem to protest it very much. I honestly thought the first one was more a fumble than the game ender. I don't know that they had it in them to do it but it would have been cool to see them get that last shot.

Game in general: was closer than I thought. Fitzgerald, I felt for him because he finally got some space and made some plays in the 4th quarter and it looked like Cinderella might be staying, but in the end the Steelers offense did a perfect 2 minute drill. For people saying it was a bad game, I guess I'd like to know what makes a good game. This had great offense and defensive plays, it had huge swings in momentum (if not that many lead changes) and the deciding points were scored in the final minute.

ps Canno, my GF says Broncorpse fans shouldn't comment on gayness of other fans until their necrophilia is cured...

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 2, 2009, 7:00 pm

Leonaerd wrote:
Spang wrote:
Sueven wrote:In fact, the Pittsburgh Steelers are the best franchise in American sports. I don't think there's even another contender. It's so obvious as to not be worth arguing about.
The Boston Celtics may beg to differ.
Detroit Red Wings, too.

Hate to say it, but the Yankees would beg to differ as well. But my vote would be for the Red Wings.

Side note, the CareerBuilder commercial was far and away the best of the night imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzq-leO85w

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » February 2, 2009, 7:08 pm

Apparantly, the official upstairs did review the "fumble", and confirmed the call on the field...so no reason to stop the play. NBC reports it HERE

quotation for those that don't want to click:

According to NFL VP of Officiating Mike Pereira, the replay official upstairs did see the play clearly.
“We confirmed it was a fumble,” said Pereira. “The replay assistant in the replay booth saw it was clearly a fumble. The ball got knocked loose and was rolling in his hand before it started forward. He has to have total control.”

There, now I don't feel bad for the cards and can continue celebrating without that monkey.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 2, 2009, 7:23 pm

On other great franchises: Yeah, I guess the Red Wings have an argument. I don't know all that much about hockey and had always assumed that Montreal was the top franchise. Is that just a historical thing? In my opinion, the other franchises mentioned-- Celtics, Yankees, etc-- are a clear step down, although there's certainly an argument to be made. I'll defend this position more strongly if anyone really cares. And the idea that the Cowboys or Packers have a fan base the equal of the Steelers seems totally ludicrous to me.

On whether it's racist to tell James Harrison to go back to the projects: Well, I think it is, but I'm not going to convince you (Funk) so I won't argue it. I'll just point out that you would have sparked no reaction whatsoever if you had said "maybe if he wants to act like a criminal he should just go rob some banks instead of playing in the NFL," and you would have gotten the exact same point across.

On the game: I thought it was a great game. It wasn't necessarily two great teams on the top of their games slugging it out, but it was thrilling and a whole lot of fun to watch, and that's what it's all about. I was pulling for Arizona by the end of the game, and after Fitzgerald scored two sick touchdowns I really wanted them to pull it out. But Pittsburgh made a great drive, Santonio Holmes made a phenomenal catch, and they won the game. Good for them; I've already admitted that I like the franchise and I'm glad they got a 6th ring. Dan Rooney is a great owner and deserves it, I'm glad Mike Tomlin got a ring, and so on and so on.

Did anyone really scrutinize a replay of that Harrison touchdown? Did he actually get the ball across the plane? How bad were the uncalled fouls?

Hypothetical: If the Steelers fizzle out on that last drive and Arizona wins, who would have been the MVP?

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 2, 2009, 7:24 pm

Chidoro wrote:Side note, the CareerBuilder commercial was far and away the best of the night imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHzq-leO85w

I found it rather annoying due to how repititive it was. People at worked seemed to be of the the same opinion. I thought it was one of the worst commercials. And punching koalas is cool.. Just don't go around punching pandas!

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 2, 2009, 7:40 pm

Sueven wrote:In my opinion, the other franchises mentioned-- Celtics, Yankees, etc-- are a clear step down, although there's certainly an argument to be made. I'll defend this position more strongly if anyone really cares.

Since the Boston Celtics were founded in 1946 they have won 17 championships. In that same time frame the Yankees have won 16 championships while the Steelers have only won 6. The Montreal Canadians have won 19 championships while the Red Wings have only won 8. The Steelers are a great franchise, but how are they the best franchise among any of the other franchises mentioned? Also, the Celtics won 11 titles in 13 seasons. And I'm not a fan of any of these franchises. Go Bucs!

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » February 2, 2009, 11:53 pm

If you count pre super bowl existance, the Packers actually still hold more NFL world championships than any other franchise.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 3, 2009, 12:15 am

Spang wrote:Since the Boston Celtics were founded in 1946 they have won 17 championships. In that same time frame the Yankees have won 16 championships while the Steelers have only won 6. The Montreal Canadians have won 19 championships while the Red Wings have only won 8. The Steelers are a great franchise, but how are they the best franchise among any of the other franchises mentioned? Also, the Celtics won 11 titles in 13 seasons. And I'm not a fan of any of these franchises. Go Bucs!

Well, I don't think that total championships are a huge factor in my thinking, since cross-sports comparisons are difficult enough to be close to meaningless. For instance, the vast majority of the Celtics 11-in-13 run took place while the NBA was an 8 team league. Major League Baseball has no salary cap. I don't know dick about hockey, so the Canadiens or the Red Wings have valid arguments as far as I'm concerned. Since the Steelers first won a Super Bowl, they have 6 titles, while the Celtics have 5, the Yankees 6, the Canadiens 6. I think it's more relevant that each of those three teams has more titles than any other team in their respective sport (and yes Jice, I realize this excludes the Packers pre-merger titles). The Celtics and Yankees are both way out in front in titles while the Steelers are just barely on top of the list. I think this is mitigated by the fact that the Celtics and Yankees both won the vast majority of their titles in far less competitive eras, and have been nothing more than pretty good franchises since. The Yankees were dominant from 1923 until 1964, but are simply a good team since. The Celtics are in a similar situation; they've been outclassed by the Lakers ever since the Bill Russell run ended. The Steelers were terrible until the 1970s and won all of their titles in a fairly modern, highly competitive environment. I'll admit that their awfulness prior to this time is a mark against them, but ancient history only counts for so much when you're assessing who the greatest franchise currently is.

Other factors in favor of the Steelers:

- They represent what is probably the third smallest market in the NFL yet have the top fanbase in American sports (this is also a mark for the Packers).
- They've been family owned for decades upon decades, and the family has a reputation for the highest caliber of citizenship (ownership situation also a mark for the Packers).
- They've featured only 3 coaches since 1969, each of whom has won a Super Bowl.
- Their elderly white male republican owner was the impetus behind the Rooney Rule, a huge step forward for progress in racially nondiscriminatory hiring.

And so on. Contrast that to Jerry Jones choosing to turn his team into a factory for the enabling of badly behaved athletes, from Michael Irvin and Nate Newton all the way through to Pacman, Tank Johnson, and TO; or to George Steinbrenner firing his coaches on a whim and feuding with his players, and on, and on

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » February 3, 2009, 1:00 pm

Well, if we are talking about the greatest current NFL franchise, as opposed to all time, then I reluctantly have to admit that the Patriots get that nod. Their dominant record (one non playoff season and that with an 11-5 record) in rescent years and record setting offense are alone enough to distinguish them from everyone else. The Steelers did have one era like this, of course, during the Bradshaw/Steel Curtain period, but the numbers the Pats put up the last couple years are probably more impressive, especially given that they did it under the salary cap system.

Don't get me wrong, the Steelers are among the top franchises in NFL history. I just do not think they are number one, all time, or even current. If in the next couple years they beat the Pats in the playoffs and win another SB or two, we might have to revisit this discussion, however.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 3, 2009, 1:27 pm

I'm not sure that you are understanding the subject I'm trying to discuss. Two points that you're missing: First, the question is NOT "who won the most championships in some span of time," with the only challenge to define the span of time; and second, while I am looking at a 'current' perspective, that's simply because it happens to be 2009 and therefore we evaluate things from the perspective of 2009. That in no way means that history is irrelevant, it's simply a recognition that greatness can erode over time if it isn't maintained. If the Steelers go on to make three playoff trips in the next couple dozen years, they would no longer be seriously in the discussion. The fact that you think the Patriots even belong in the discussion is perfect evidence that we're not talking about remotely the same thing. The way I conceive of this question, a team which has only had sustained success under one coach has no place in the argument. The fact that the Patriots win with Belichick might make him a great coach; it does not make them a great franchise. Let's see what happens when he leaves, and when the coach after that leaves...

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 3, 2009, 1:48 pm

There was also the whole stain on the Pats for blatantly cheating their way through the last decade too. What Sueven and the media people are looking at when they say "best franchise" is a variety of things which include, winning consistently, winning championships, having class owners, having class coaches, eliminating or refusing to draft people with major character issues, fan base, and the legacy of the team.

Looking at that as criteria, you can eliminate a couple of teams instantly. Patriots...not a chance with a classless coach and the massive cheating allegations. Not to mention they have had a run of 10 years total in franchise history...and that run was the decade marred with their admitted cheating. The Yankees definitely have the championships, but their ownership pretty much curses them to be viewed with disdain. They also had the late 70's-early 90's where they were garbage. Celtics would be a possibility....not sure to be honest about the hockey franchises. Green Bay would be the only other football franchise I would even think about listing there.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 3, 2009, 2:11 pm

Sueven wrote:I'm not sure that you are understanding the subject I'm trying to discuss. Two points that you're missing: First, the question is NOT "who won the most championships in some span of time," with the only challenge to define the span of time; and second, while I am looking at a 'current' perspective, that's simply because it happens to be 2009 and therefore we evaluate things from the perspective of 2009. That in no way means that history is irrelevant, it's simply a recognition that greatness can erode over time if it isn't maintained. If the Steelers go on to make three playoff trips in the next couple dozen years, they would no longer be seriously in the discussion. The fact that you think the Patriots even belong in the discussion is perfect evidence that we're not talking about remotely the same thing. The way I conceive of this question, a team which has only had sustained success under one coach has no place in the argument. The fact that the Patriots win with Belichick might make him a great coach; it does not make them a great franchise. Let's see what happens when he leaves, and when the coach after that leaves...

So, what exactly ARE you trying to say? You are saying that you are looking at 2009 for the Steelers, but people cannot look at recent successful teams. Then you talk about how only teams that have only had sustained success under one coach would not count, but it is rare for NFL teams to have any mid-season coaching change (since this is only about 2009).

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 3, 2009, 3:20 pm

Kilmoll seems to have figured it out pretty easily. Your post is just willfully refusing to even think about what I'm writing. How could you possibly conclude that I'm talking about only 2009?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 3, 2009, 3:54 pm

Sueven wrote:Kilmoll seems to have figured it out pretty easily. Your post is just willfully refusing to even think about what I'm writing. How could you possibly conclude that I'm talking about only 2009?

From the same post I quoted:

Sueven wrote:First, the question is NOT "who won the most championships in some span of time," with the only challenge to define the span of time; and second, while I am looking at a 'current' perspective, that's simply because it happens to be 2009 and therefore we evaluate things from the perspective of 2009.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 3, 2009, 4:01 pm

Any way you look at it....welcome to Sixburgh! And in celebratory fashion, I present to you some of the newest shirts out there:

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 3, 2009, 4:14 pm

The very next sentence in the post you quoted:

That in no way means that history is irrelevant, it's simply a recognition that greatness can erode over time if it isn't maintained.

And from my previous post:

Since the Steelers first won a Super Bowl, they have 6 titles

I think it's more relevant that each of those three teams has more titles than any other team in their respective sport

The Yankees were dominant from 1923 until 1964, but are simply a good team since

The Celtics are in a similar situation; they've been outclassed by the Lakers ever since the Bill Russell run ended

The Steelers were terrible until the 1970s and won all of their titles in a fairly modern, highly competitive environment. I'll admit that their awfulness prior to this time is a mark against them, but ancient history only counts for so much

They represent what is probably the third smallest market in the NFL yet have the top fanbase in American sports (this is also a mark for the Packers)

They've been family owned for decades upon decades, and the family has a reputation for the highest caliber of citizenship (ownership situation also a mark for the Packers)

They've featured only 3 coaches since 1969, each of whom has won a Super Bowl.

Contrast that to Jerry Jones choosing to turn his team into a factory for the enabling of badly behaved athletes, from Michael Irvin and Nate Newton all the way through to Pacman, Tank Johnson, and TO; or to George Steinbrenner firing his coaches on a whim and feuding with his players

Reading comprehension much? These are all factors I cited as factors in forming my opinion. Which of these things happened in 2009? Is "since 1964" the same thing as "2009?" What about "since the Bill Russell run ended," "decades upon decades," "since 1969," "from Michael Irvin and Nate Newton," "George Steinbrenner firing his coaches," "since the Steelers won their first Super Bowl?" In what possible world could you construct an interpretation of what I wrote that leads you to think that I'm talking about only 2009?