Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

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Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Spang »

Where are they?
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Fairweather Pure »

I don't recall reading a single pro-Palin post anywhere on VV. Even our biggest Republican apologists have not come out in support of her.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Spang »

They're supporting a 72 year old elderly man with an inexperienced running mate in Sarah Palin. They are supporting her.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Canelek »

This thread should probably be moved to the retard section.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Spang »

:(
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

I'm a supporter. I don't think they will win and I don't feel like responding to, or even reading, most posts here because you can usually tell fromthe title of the post that there is no point.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I am not a big Palin supporter and think he could have gone a ton of different ways and been better off. Of course I am not a super backer of McCain either, but I cannot stomach the thought of Obama and a pure Dem controlled government in this era. The only hope we have is that the Dems currently in Congress do not cave in and follow whatever that assclown says if he wins the office. Many of the issues we all point to are pretty much a wash for us as we know it....neither one is going to just up and fix the economy. Neither one is going to change Roe vs Wade. Neither one is going to differ from each other in many of the basic daily things we will see. But the one thing I see Obama and Biden doing is exactly what they have done in their entire career in office...and that is be the most anti-gun criminal friendly politicians we have seen in decades. Right now the NRA has rated an awful lot of Dems in both houses as "A" or very close to it in their ratings. Biden and Obama would both be "F-" and if they do what some of the Clinton Dems did and flip because of White House pressure to vote with them, then bad things are going to happen. That is the one serious thing that I think they can actually change during their administration....and of course raise taxes which is a given. I guess if they do win, then we will see a HUGE turnover in Congress in 2010 to oust the Dems and flip it back to a small GOP majority.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Aslanna »

What a fearmonger. I don't see any of that happening. Although I think you're wrong about McCain and Roe v Wade. As do a lot of other people I'm sure. Especially with that Jesusfreak Palin whispering sweet nothings in his ear.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Siji »

It blows my mind that people keep talking about Obama raising taxes. Assuming for a moment that you're actually in the crowd of people that make enough that your taxes would be increased, the amount that he's actually talking about increasing them is minor at best. Your fucktard party got the country into a mess by catering to the rich. It's time to fucking pay up, so quit your fucking whining.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Winnow »

I'm not drinking the Obama Koolaid.

He'll win barring a typcial democrat collapse but only because it's an extremely weak year for the republicans following some war years where the people always get excitable and blame whoever's in charge. Bush Sr kicked ass in the Gulf and still lost to the fat guy. It's all cycles.

A republican will be right back in the White House in 2012. In the meantime, lets work down this national debt so they have something to work with! I could use the fake market boost democrats seem to give as well. Do it!
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Gonzoie - Luclin »

A republican will be right back in the White House in 2012. In the meantime, lets work down this national debt so they have something to work with!
I would have agreed with you before this campaign started, but looking at how far right the GOP has actually gone now, i don't see them winning in 2012. I dont see them winning in 2016 for that matter, but maybe by then Barry will have convinced the nation that he deserves 3 terms!
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

I simply believe that you should keep what you earn. Taxes are high enough. Lower taxes for everyone and cut the shit out of government services. We can start with the National Endowment for the Arts and not stop until we have gutted social security.

Fuck socialism, it has never. . .ever. . .worked. You end up destroying all the incentives people have to work their asses off. Raising corporate taxes. . .are you kidding? They are already 35% of income. Some large companies may enjoy huge profits, but most companies do not. For those of us who have started businesses, this sucks ass. Really pisses me off. It is just going to drive more business overseas as it gets harder and harder to actually see a payday from starting your own business.

Yes, the Obama tax cuts will give more money to people who have less money. Yes, that means that my taxes will go down. I would rather have a better chance to hit it big because I am willing to work my ass off to start and run a business than have a couple more bucks in my bank account today. At some point, it jsut isn't worth it anymore and I will just leech off of other peoples' success like everyone else.

Fuck socialism.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

I'm sorry Stan, but socialism? Come off it. Obama's tax plan is nowhere near being socialism, or even social democracy. The miniscule rate of wealth distribution proposed would make any real socialist turn in his grave nine times and vomit little red books out of sheer frustration.

And as far as things like the NEA... imo it's just about the most important thing you can possibly spend money on. Fuck socialism? No, fuck greed.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Zaelath »

Avestan wrote:I simply believe that you should keep what you earn. Taxes are high enough. Lower taxes for everyone and cut the shit out of government services. We can start with the National Endowment for the Arts and not stop until we have gutted social security.

Fuck socialism, it has never. . .ever. . .worked. You end up destroying all the incentives people have to work their asses off. Raising corporate taxes. . .are you kidding? They are already 35% of income. Some large companies may enjoy huge profits, but most companies do not. For those of us who have started businesses, this sucks ass. Really pisses me off. It is just going to drive more business overseas as it gets harder and harder to actually see a payday from starting your own business.

Yes, the Obama tax cuts will give more money to people who have less money. Yes, that means that my taxes will go down. I would rather have a better chance to hit it big because I am willing to work my ass off to start and run a business than have a couple more bucks in my bank account today. At some point, it jsut isn't worth it anymore and I will just leech off of other peoples' success like everyone else.

Fuck socialism.
So funny. But tell you what sport, here's where your theory breaks down.

YOU: OMG I earn lots of money and I have lots of shit, wait! People are stealing my shit! OMG, where are the police?

REALITY: I guess you hire your own in your newly formed egalitarian society.

YOU: I sure would like to drive my fabulous sports car to the shops! OMG, there's no roads!

REALITY: Get building! Oh, and don't forget to buy all the land your new road is built on.

YOU: Oh man, I'm OLD. And the big companies that I entrusted my life savings to have fucked me in the ass.

REALITY: Time to get pushed out into the snow old man!

Pure capitalists are as retarded as pure socialists. But, they're even more self righteous windbags about it.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Aabidano »

Your fucktard party got the country into a mess by catering to the rich. It's time to fucking pay up, so quit your fucking whining.
Both sides have an equally large slice of the crap sandwich. If it was as one sided as some people seem to think the dems would be screaming about it at the top of their lungs. Where has the commotion been for the last 8 years? That argument doesn't hold wanter at all. If they talk about it too much people will wake up at the TV and realize what really happened.
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Me neither, I was surprised when Xyun jumped on the bandwagon to the extent he has. Thought he was more of a realist than that.

I think both candidates suck, in different ways. Again, I don't support McCain but I'll probably voting for him.

Early voting started yesterday in FL.

And, there's no point in arguing with a zealot. Of any stripe.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Aslanna »

Aabidano wrote:I think both candidates suck, in different ways. Again, I don't support McCain but I'll probably voting for him.
Yeah. That makes perfect sense. If you don't support him why the fuck are you voting for him? Talk about sheep...
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Aabidano »

Aslanna wrote:If you don't support him why the fuck are you voting for him? Talk about sheep...
Put differently, it's voting against Obama. Just like I voted against Kerry. The sad part is I probably would again even knowing what I do now.

*Edit - As I've said elsewhere, if the dems didn't control the legislative branch I'd very likely be voting against McCain hoping for a few years of bickering.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Spang »

You're better off not voting at all. You shouldn't vote for someone you don't support. That's fucking stupid.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Aabidano »

Spang wrote:You shouldn't vote for someone you don't support.
Why not? While I might not care for today's version of McCain, I really don't care for Obama and Biden's view of how things should be.

In the lesser of two evils races we have, it's what many do whether they choose to admit it or not.

Ran across this today on the BBC site:
One of the least wealthy members of the Senate, Joe Biden nonetheless lives in a colonial-style lake-front house worth in the region of $3m.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Canoe »

Spang wrote:You're better off not voting at all. You shouldn't vote for someone you don't support. That's fucking stupid.

I completely disagree with this. While I'm not a big fan of the McCain / Palin ticket, I am completely against "almost" everything that Obama stands for. Therefore I have no choice but to vote for McCain in the hope that Obama doesn't win.

That being said it doesn't matter as I live in NY, which always goes blue anyway.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Ashur »

I think what we're seeing is two tickets:
Obama
Nobama
- Ash
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Xatrei »

If you're just voting against one of the main party candidates, vote Barr, Nader or McKinney if you have the option. It sounds like many of those voting "against Obama" that aren't in love with McCain fit better into the Libertarian/Barr set anyway (in general, not just here).

I cast protest votes for Nader in 2000 and 2004 for a couple reasons: this state is too red for a more pragmatic Democratic vote to matter and Gore and Kerry were far too conservative economically and socially for my tastes. Even though Obama is still far too moderate for my liking, I'll be casting a more pragmatic vote this time for him. This is because even though he has no chance of winning my state, the moral authority conveyed by a mandate in the form of a decisive popular vote victory is potentially meaningful as he and the Democratic congress work to implement their agenda.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Sueven »

I agree with Ashur.

John McCain has run almost entirely against Obama. His policy proposals have run the gamut from inconsequential political gimmicks to incoherent nonsense to as he reacts to the daily political winds. Even if you have more respect for his policy proposals than I do, he's been dropping policy talking points as fast as he's raised them (hear anything about a prize for an alternative-energy battery lately? What about the "Lexington Project"?) Obviously, he would govern in a different fashion than he has campaigned, but he's failed to send any coherent message about how he would govern beyond "I'm a Republican." That may sometimes be enough, but in a year where he's the member of the incumbent party, saddled by an extraordinarily unpopular president, an unpopular war, and a tanking economy, saying "I'm a Republican, and by the way fuck Barack Obama" is not going to win an election. McCain winning would have required McCain to put forth a substantive, positive vision of where he plans to take the country. He needed to get the American public to buy into his vision, and not simply raise doubts about Obama in a year where the tie goes to the Democrat. He hasn't done that, and he's losing.

To be clear, I'm not saying that McCain's policy actions as President would amount to gimmicks and nonsense, simply that the policy proposals he's presented as a candidate fall into those categories. It's his campaign that I'm taking issue with here.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

Zaelath wrote:
Avestan wrote:I simply believe that you should keep what you earn. Taxes are high enough. Lower taxes for everyone and cut the shit out of government services. We can start with the National Endowment for the Arts and not stop until we have gutted social security.

Fuck socialism, it has never. . .ever. . .worked. You end up destroying all the incentives people have to work their asses off. Raising corporate taxes. . .are you kidding? They are already 35% of income. Some large companies may enjoy huge profits, but most companies do not. For those of us who have started businesses, this sucks ass. Really pisses me off. It is just going to drive more business overseas as it gets harder and harder to actually see a payday from starting your own business.

Yes, the Obama tax cuts will give more money to people who have less money. Yes, that means that my taxes will go down. I would rather have a better chance to hit it big because I am willing to work my ass off to start and run a business than have a couple more bucks in my bank account today. At some point, it jsut isn't worth it anymore and I will just leech off of other peoples' success like everyone else.

Fuck socialism.
So funny. But tell you what sport, here's where your theory breaks down.

YOU: OMG I earn lots of money and I have lots of shit, wait! People are stealing my shit! OMG, where are the police?

REALITY: I guess you hire your own in your newly formed egalitarian society.

YOU: I sure would like to drive my fabulous sports car to the shops! OMG, there's no roads!

REALITY: Get building! Oh, and don't forget to buy all the land your new road is built on.

YOU: Oh man, I'm OLD. And the big companies that I entrusted my life savings to have fucked me in the ass.

REALITY: Time to get pushed out into the snow old man!

Pure capitalists are as retarded as pure socialists. But, they're even more self righteous windbags about it.

First off, I could barely understand your post, but I think I got the idea.

I have zero problem with taxes. I have a big problem with taxes that simply move money from one constituancy to another.

I am fine with taxes to build roads, improve schools, fund police, etc. I am very not ok with higher taxes for the people who have created the wealth and jobs in this country so that we can prop up people in a different demographic. Rich people already pay far more taxes than other groups. At some point, you start to remove the incentives to be rich. Those incentives are exactly what create jobs in this country.

It may seem like a great idea to say "Those people have a lot and should share with my broke ass, it's not fair". Bullshit. It is perfectly fair. People who take good risks, work their asses off through school, and work and end up rich should keep their money.

As an aside, I am also very ok with very high estate taxes, but I am not ok with high corporate and income taxes for the wealthy.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:I'm sorry Stan, but socialism? Come off it. Obama's tax plan is nowhere near being socialism, or even social democracy. The miniscule rate of wealth distribution proposed would make any real socialist turn in his grave nine times and vomit little red books out of sheer frustration.

And as far as things like the NEA... imo it's just about the most important thing you can possibly spend money on. Fuck socialism? No, fuck greed.
It is a slippery slope and I already don't like where we are. 2nd highest corporate tax rate in the world, and if you are unlucky enought o live in California, you pay 40% of income to the government if you make over $100,000 a year. In Northern California, that is barely a living wage. Today, by the time I pay rent, I am left with about 20-25% of my income to spend on everything from food to gas to VV donations. I am pissed because the businesses I have started are going to get reamed even more and that my capital gains taxes are going to go WAY up. I have worked for 10 years basically around the clock and the companies I helped build have created well over 200 high paying jobs while I have been renting low cost apartments to stay afloat on the hope that, someday, I would make a lot from seeling the equity in my companies. Obama's plan will raise the taxes on that sale by 20% (yes, really). Not only does that suck for me, it makes it MUCH harder to sell in the first place because the investors will demand higher post-tax returns. That, in turn, makes it harder to get financing to start and build new businesses, and that, in turn, means fewer jobs will be created by folks like me.

I think Obama is a nice guy and agree with him on 80% of his social stances, but his economic policies are like candy for hungry children right now and will end up rotting the teeth of this country.

I have no problem if you want to call me greedy. I want to make a lot of money. I am willing to work my ass off to do it. I want a big house and all that shit and I do not want to pay the way for people who did not work their asses off through high school, college, grad school, and in professional life like I did. Sorry, I just don't.
Last edited by Avestan on October 21, 2008, 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Aabidano »

Xatrei wrote:If you're just voting against one of the main party candidates, vote Barr, Nader or McKinney if you have the option. It sounds like many of those voting "against Obama" that aren't in love with McCain fit better into the Libertarian/Barr set anyway (in general, not just here).
You're correct, it doesn't meet my goal though, I don't want to see Biden\Obama in office. Voting third party might make the point but doesn't accomplish the task. Made that mistake with Perot.

The new system in FL is pretty nice, I ran out and voted early at lunchtime.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Aardor »

Avestan wrote: but his economic policies are like candy for hungry children right now and will end up rotting the teeth of this country.
Not that this implies Obama's economic policies are fantastic/going to work/etc, but what analogy would you use the describe the current economic policies of our country, and how they have brought us to the current economic crisis?
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

Aardor wrote:
Avestan wrote: but his economic policies are like candy for hungry children right now and will end up rotting the teeth of this country.
Not that this implies Obama's economic policies are fantastic/going to work/etc, but what analogy would you use the describe the current economic policies of our country, and how they have brought us to the current economic crisis?
I would say that the policies that got us where we are today were instituted 15 years ago and they are EXACTLY like what Obama is trying to do today.

there was legislation passed back then because the government was trying to force Fannie and Freddy to give more risky loans so that lower income people could buy houses. Every time you fuck with the natural balance, it bites you in the ass eventually. These firms have been spiraling out of control for a lot longer than 8 years and it finally caught up with them.

I would argue that our problems today arose from a forced misalignment of executive compensation and incentives resulting from government pressure to make it easier for people to buy homes. Does that sound familiar to anyone? If you want more detail, you can read my posts in the other economy thread that is somewhere on this board.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

Here is a pro-Clinton article written in 1999. The last paragraph provides a nice summary. Doesn't seem so great anymore:
It’s one of the hidden success stories of the Clinton era. In the great housing boom of the 1990s, black and Latino homeownership has surged to the highest level ever recorded. The number of African Americans owning their own home is now increasing nearly three times as fast as the number of whites; the number of Latino homeowners is growing nearly five times as fast as that of whites.

These numbers are dramatic enough to deserve more detail. When President Clinton took office in 1993, 42% of African Americans and 39% of Latinos owned their own home. By this spring, those figures had jumped to 46.9% of blacks and 46.2% of Latinos.

. . . Since 1994, when the numbers really took off, the number of black and Latino homeowners has increased by 2 million. In all, the minority homeownership rate is on track to increase more in the 1990s than in any decade this century except the 1940s . . .

What explains the surge? The answer starts with the economy. . .

But the economy isn’t the whole story. As HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo says: “There have been points in the past when the economy has done well but minority homeownership has not increased proportionally.” . . .

All of this suggests that Clinton’s efforts to increase minority access to loans and capital also have spurred this decade’s gains. Under Clinton, bank regulators have breathed the first real life into enforcement of the Community Reinvestment Act, a 20-year-old statute meant to combat “redlining” by requiring banks to serve their low-income communities. The administration also has sent a clear message by stiffening enforcement of the fair housing and fair lending laws. The bottom line: Between 1993 and 1997, home loans grew by 72% to blacks and by 45% to Latinos, far faster than the total growth rate.

Lenders also have opened the door wider to minorities because of new initiatives at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac–the giant federally chartered corporations that play critical, if obscure, roles in the home finance system. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac buy mortgages from lenders and bundle them into securities; that provides lenders the funds to lend more.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Sueven »

The idea that the current economic crisis is solely due to a government push for lenders to issue risky loans to low-income families is, well, wrong.

At the very least, even if you think that the entire crisis can be attributed to bad mortgages, you have to acknowledge that the government, via freddie/fannie, was far from the only entity pushing for the writing of more bad mortgages. Investment banks, who were making shitloads of money by packaging mortgages into various derivative securities, were pushing very hard on mortgage brokers to write more mortgages to feed the machine.

As a result of the pressure to write more mortgages-- pressure which was a result of both government and private actions-- the mortgage broker business became extremely shady, and hustlers who had been engaged in other pursuits flocked to it. Many of the failing mortgages are simply beyond the means of those who took them out, while others are straight-up fraudulent.

Additionally, let's not forget that the "ownership society" is an idea heavily pushed by conservative politicians who want an excuse to avoid any real poverty-alleviating policies (*gasp* welfare *gasp*)
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

Not saying this was the only contributing factor, but in my opinion, this financial bubble started with that policy change and change in consumer behavior.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by cadalano »

less blame on government and consumers, more blame on lenders
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

personal responsibility is a dying concept I guess.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Boogahz »

Avestan wrote:personal responsibility is a dying concept I guess.
It has been dead for a while now.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

why take personal responsibility when taxpayers will bail you out?
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Zver »

We got lucky 8 years ago by keeping Gore out of the white house, maybe we can get lucky again this time around - but it doesnt look that way :shock:
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Nick »

Yeah those sure have been a lucky last 8 years.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Zver »

could have been a lot worse
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Nick »

how?
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by miir »

Zver wrote:could have been a lot worse
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Forthe »

The US has a high corp tax rate but there are so many loopholes and havens that corps rarely pay at that rate. In fact it is common for corps to pay no tax at all.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ ... 5620080812
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by cadalano »

i agree. personal responsibility is dead. certainly lenders know that because they've been exploiting that fact for years.
why take personal responsibility when taxpayers will bail you out?
irresponsible corporations are being bailed out, not irresponsible people. those corporations gladly wrote up as many high risk contracts as they could knowing they had an endless supply of idiots to sign them who didn't know any better. and in some cases, knowing that the government would never allow them to fold if those massive risks ever came around to bite them in the ass.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Spang »

miir wrote:
Zver wrote:could have been a lot worse
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
You'll have to forgive Zver. He's Russian.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Spang »

Aabidano wrote:
Spang wrote:You shouldn't vote for someone you don't support.
Why not? While I might not care for today's version of McCain, I really don't care for Obama and Biden's view of how things should be.

In the lesser of two evils races we have, it's what many do whether they choose to admit it or not.
If, in your mind, there are two shitty candidates, one shittier than the other, and you vote for the one less shittier, he or she will still be shitty, given that you think both choices are shitty. Start a new trend. Find a non-shitty candidate, and vote for them.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Fairweather Pure »

I guess I've been voting incorrectly for all these years. I simply vote for who I think would make the best president. /shrug
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Canoe »

Spang wrote:
Aabidano wrote:
Spang wrote:You shouldn't vote for someone you don't support.
Why not? While I might not care for today's version of McCain, I really don't care for Obama and Biden's view of how things should be.

In the lesser of two evils races we have, it's what many do whether they choose to admit it or not.
If, in your mind, there are two shitty candidates, one shittier than the other, and you vote for the one less shittier, he or she will still be shitty, given that you think both choices are shitty. Start a new trend. Find a non-shitty candidate, and vote for them.
The reason is you DON"T want a certain person in the presidency. If I vote for let's say, Barr, it does me no good in trying to keep Obama out of the presidency. If I vote for McCain, it has a shot of keeping Obama out of office (aside from the fact that I'm in NY).
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Zaelath »

Avestan wrote: First off, I could barely understand your post, but I think I got the idea.

I have zero problem with taxes. I have a big problem with taxes that simply move money from one constituancy to another.

I am fine with taxes to build roads, improve schools, fund police, etc. I am very not ok with higher taxes for the people who have created the wealth and jobs in this country so that we can prop up people in a different demographic. Rich people already pay far more taxes than other groups. At some point, you start to remove the incentives to be rich. Those incentives are exactly what create jobs in this country.

It may seem like a great idea to say "Those people have a lot and should share with my broke ass, it's not fair". Bullshit. It is perfectly fair. People who take good risks, work their asses off through school, and work and end up rich should keep their money.

As an aside, I am also very ok with very high estate taxes, but I am not ok with high corporate and income taxes for the wealthy.
It's called disposable income, and it's been discussed here plently.

It's the reason a flat tax fucks the poor.

The idea that "income tax" bothers the wealthy is flat out fucking hillariously naieve. Upper Middle-Class, perhaps, but the wealthy? no.

BTW:
People who take good risks, work their asses off through school, and work and end up rich should keep their money.
Is a pretty small segment of "the wealthy". Perhaps you mean "Me, I should keep my money"?
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

What I mean is that people who make money should keep their money. People who are gifted their money should not. I do not mind being taxed at a higher bracket if I make more, but it is getting ridiculous. There is a point at which taking the wealthy will start to have a bad impact on the econoy as a whole and I think we are damned close today. I think that more taxes on the wealthy could very well be the push we need to really cause investment (universally from the wealthy) to dry up. That impacts the wealthy, but indirectly impacts the poor in a much more severe way. . .no jobs.
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Forthe »

Avestan wrote:What I mean is that people who make money should keep their money. People who are gifted their money should not. I do not mind being taxed at a higher bracket if I make more, but it is getting ridiculous. There is a point at which taking the wealthy will start to have a bad impact on the econoy as a whole and I think we are damned close today. I think that more taxes on the wealthy could very well be the push we need to really cause investment (universally from the wealthy) to dry up. That impacts the wealthy, but indirectly impacts the poor in a much more severe way. . .no jobs.
Society needs a balance, which the US doesn't have right now. Continual redistribution from the many to the few is unsubstainable. Eventually that will reach a point where things will blow up.

As long as people see progress they really don't give a shit about the rich. But if the system is benefiting a few while most are stagnant or struggling then people get pissed. Which is basically what happened over the last 8 years. Serious wealth from the boom for the top few while salaries went down for the many. Lower prices for Chinese goods cushioned the impact of this but then prices went up pretty drastically which pissed people off. Then tax dollars were used to bail out the problems caused by the few that created and benefitted from the boom and people are now irrate at the hypocrisy of it.

As with the corp tax, most wealthy people pay much less than the tax rate due to loopholes and havens. Obama frequently mentions an executive that pays less tax (percentage wise) than his secretary. That executive is Warren Buffett, see the video below for his effective tax rate. Close all the loopholes and then your arguments would be valid. As it is you are being played for a sucker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s
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Re: Where'd all the McCain/Palin supporters go?

Post by Avestan »

Buffet pays less becuse long term capital gains is a lower % than income tax. The reason for this is to create incentive for investment. This incentive gives people a reason to invest in small companies that create new jobs, new technology, etc.

There are loopholes in capital gains that need to be closed, but capital gains must remain low if we expect to compete in a global market. Despite all the shit going o with subprime lending, the US still thrives with a entreprenurial spirit, but if we boost the taxes paid on the cashout, we are not making it easier for poor people to climb the ladder, we are making it much, much harder. Even if all of that money is given to the lower and middle classes, we would be eliminating the best (by far) way for people in lower socioeconomic circles to improve their long term status.

As much as many of us hate to admit it, most of the people who created the jobs that we now work did that because they had a shot at hitting it big. If you start to limit that upside, you are giving crying children candy (to use my earlier analogy). Every time I eat candy, 15 minutes later, I wish I hadn't. This will not be any different.
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