South Ossetia

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 9, 2008, 10:07 pm

I know the US media seems more interested in Obama's vacation and Edwards affair confession but I'm interested in how the USAdians here view the conflict.

There is something seriously wrong with US media. All the reporting I've seen seems to come straight from the State Department. There is a much bigger and deeper story here than is being reported. BBC and CBC have way more info than I'm seeing from US sites.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 9, 2008, 10:50 pm

I've been following the story for the past few days, on US media sites. Seems a bit early to jump to any conclusions. I will say, it is quite evident how careful the US is with their attacks versus Russia. Seems they've been killing innocents by the hundreds.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » August 9, 2008, 11:06 pm

Forthe wrote:I know the US media seems more interested in Obama's vacation and Edwards affair confession but I'm interested in how the USAdians here view the conflict.

There is something seriously wrong with US media. All the reporting I've seen seems to come straight from the State Department. There is a much bigger and deeper story here than is being reported. BBC and CBC have way more info than I'm seeing from US sites.

hmm, I have been seeing it on the front page at CNN.com, but I might also have it set to the International Edition...for, you know, international news

*Edit* I just went to the abomination that is FoxNews.com and it is the top story there...along with some 19th century priest being declared a Saint...

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2008, 12:15 am

Fucking murderous Russian cunt fuckwits.

Anyone with a brain has been aware of what's been coming, now it's happened, during the fucking Olympics, cunts. Russia, like the US in Iraq, deserves a fucking bloody nose after this bullshit. Murdering innocent people for realpolitik IS NOT OK.

Sorry for being idealistic and daring to acknowledge the basic principle of morality and all fuckwits but that's how I roll. Not that anyone with a fucking minuscule amount of gray matter would disagree, but that rules out about half this board.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 10, 2008, 1:08 am

The picture that's been on the front page of CNN (US edition) looks pretty brutal.

Why isn't Nick bitching about there not being similar graphic pictures on the front page about Iraq?

*waits*

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2008, 1:11 am

Congratulations on reading the thread you "post ironic" fuckwit.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 10, 2008, 3:20 am

I was baiting you to say "fuckwit" just ONE MORE TIME!

worked

go ahead, do a forum search for "fuckwit"

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/sear ... ds=fuckwit

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 10, 2008, 4:46 am

Nick wrote:Fucking murderous Russian cunt fuckwits.

Anyone with a brain has been aware of what's been coming, now it's happened, during the fucking Olympics, cunts. Russia, like the US in Iraq, deserves a fucking bloody nose after this bullshit. Murdering innocent people for realpolitik IS NOT OK.

Sorry for being idealistic and daring to acknowledge the basic principle of morality and all fuckwits but that's how I roll. Not that anyone with a fucking minuscule amount of gray matter would disagree, but that rules out about half this board.

Well this should be fun. While I doubt Russia's motives are benevolent they happen to be on the right side in my opinion.

History:
-Georgia, as it exits today, has only existed since 1991 when it split from the USSR.
-South Ossetia has wanted independence from Geogia for a long time, prior to the fall of the USSR
-South Ossetia has been autonomous since the 1991-1992 war
-South Ossetia has had 2 referendums (the last one monitored by outside groups) supporting independence.

Current:
-Georgia and South Ossetia had agreed to a ceasefire and mediated talks on the 7th. Hours later Georgia's sneek attack began with an artillery bombardment on the South Ossetia capital followed by a ground invasion.
-Georgia attacked and killed Russian peacekeepers, giving Putin his excuse on the 8th.
-Now Russia is kicking Georgia's ass while Georgia plays victim (after starting this shit) and tries to goad the west into a larger conflict.
-Georgia's president is a dumbass.

Update: Georgia has withdrawn from South Ossetia.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » August 10, 2008, 5:19 am

From all appearances fuckwit it appears fuckwit cunt motherfuckershitbitch Georgia started some motherfucking cunt shaking goddamn cuntlike shit and is now paying for the motherfucking cuntlike action the fuckwits. It is terrible that some cunt innocent fuckwits got fucking killed and such...but the fuckwits goddamn country started this fuckwit situation and now is paying the fuckwit price the cunts.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » August 11, 2008, 8:53 pm

So who's brain is more aware- Nick's or Forthe's?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 11, 2008, 11:22 pm

Some pics from the Ossetia:

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showth ... p?t=139735

....

Some more, including initially some images from Iraq.

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showth ... p?t=139735

U.S. troops are so much better equipped than anyone else. Russian soldiers, and any other troops you see, and equipment, just don't come close.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 12, 2008, 2:10 pm

hMMM, LOTS OF OIL PIPELINES IN gEORGIA. cOULD THIS BE A WAR ABOUT OIL?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 12, 2008, 2:39 pm

Well russia has already stated that they wanted to "secure" the pipeline.

I miss the old USSR.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 12, 2008, 5:06 pm

The pipelines could definitely be a motivation but they are further east and south than Russia's forces at the moment. Russia is in the north and north west. The pipelines run from the east to the south.

I think the black sea port in the western breakaway province is also a possible motivator if we are going to speculate on Russian motives.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 12, 2008, 5:09 pm

When was the last time Russia invaded anyone? 1986? Maybe they were just bored... who knows.

As a USAdian, I am going to point to oil.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 12, 2008, 6:34 pm

Sarkozy scoring political points today.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08 ... index.html

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » August 13, 2008, 9:22 am

South Ossetia finally got some help...and the big dog became the small dog...so they cried to the world. Never deny mother russia! Some are saying its Russia's motive to "have" the land that the pipelines are on...but doesn't it look more obvious that Georgia needs the pipeline revenue from South Ossetia more? If the pipeline wasn't there, South Ossetia would have been its own nation by now, cause no one would want it.

But of course, the US has to give its opinion, and ask Russia to back away from Georgia.

I really think the US should be sitting this one out...Georgia must be loaning troops to the Iraq efforts.

Traz-KOE · Post by **Traz-KOE** » August 13, 2008, 12:29 pm

Kluden wrote:Georgia must be loaning troops to the Iraq efforts.

Third after the US and Britain, as I recall. Georgia is one of the most staunch US allies in the region.

If you assume a kernel of truth to what everyone is saying you get a pretty fucked up story.

-Breakaway forces lob a rocket into Georgian territory.
-Georgia flips the fuck out and launches a disproportionate offensive (TENFOLD!) into South Ossetia (probable truth: uses as an excuse to attempt to regain control over the region)
-Russia flips the fuck out and launches an even more disproportionate counter-offensive (TENFOLD TENFOLD!) into Georgia (probable truth: uses as an excuse to annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia)
-Georgia realizes its in deep shit and cries to it's allies for help, downplaying the fact that it seems to have had a clear motive other than retaliation for an isolated incident
-Russia claims that they are only defending areas that Georgia invaded in the first place, downplaying the fact that *they* now occupy those areas.
-France grows a set, and sends Nicolas 'Man-of-Steel' Sarkozy in to negotiate a cease-fire
-Georgia agrees to cease-fire
-Russia Agrees to cease-fire
-Both sides keep fighting
-Wtf?

Also, I'm pretty sure none of the oil pipelines mentioned actually run through South Ossetia. The northernmost pipeline, Baku-Supsa, was closed by BP as a precautionary measure, but it appears to run somewhat south of the South Ossetian region.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 13, 2008, 1:55 pm

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/2 ... in_Georgia

You got to love the arrogance coming from the apostles of Obama.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 13, 2008, 2:52 pm

Move to Georgia and get in the way of a Russian tank, please.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 13, 2008, 4:31 pm

Bring it on!

China? Russia?

Canada = one of those skinny white lines.

Everyone besides Japan and the UK (not counting Russia and China) should be paying the U.S.money for protecting their interests and policing the world. Pay up! (Canada can sell us $50/barrel oil instead of paying loonys if they want to make things right)

Mawafu · Post by **Mawafu** » August 13, 2008, 6:13 pm

I'm not for Russia being there. I think it's BS reasons why they are there. South Ossetia is part of the Georgian country. Though they are separatists and consider themselves independent from Georgia the international community does not recognize them as a separate country. In essence it's a civil war and this was an excuse for Russia to move it's military in position for something more.

Reminds me of Nazi Germany moving in on Sudetenland..

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 13, 2008, 6:14 pm

Where's the piechart about Global Distribution of Debt? I'm sure US would rank #1 there too!

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » August 13, 2008, 6:44 pm

I sure hope for those poor bastard's sake, Russia isn't "Liberating" them from an outside conquerer like they did for Poland...

Putin has been itching to regain the glory of the USSR days. Expect more of this.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 13, 2008, 7:51 pm

Winnow wrote:Bring it on!

China? Russia?

Canada = one of those skinny white lines.

Everyone besides Japan and the UK (not counting Russia and China) should be paying the U.S.money for protecting their interests and policing the world. Pay up! (Canada can sell us $50/barrel oil instead of paying loonys if they want to make things right)

Where's the arabs on that chart? You're all so worried about protecting us from them, surely they must be spending a lot more than that.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 13, 2008, 8:03 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/2 ... in_Georgia

You got to love the arrogance coming from the apostles of Obama.

DIAF you fucking retard, and take your kids with you for Darwin's sake. You're the most faith-based voter on the board. The right could roll out a candidate who's major platform was baby eating and you'd be in here telling everyone to look at the big picture.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 13, 2008, 8:24 pm

Aslanna wrote:Where's the piechart about Global Distribution of Debt? I'm sure US would rank #1 there too!

Good idea! The U.S. should just write off our world debt and call it even.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 13, 2008, 10:46 pm

Zaelath wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/2 ... in_Georgia

You got to love the arrogance coming from the apostles of Obama.
DIAF you fucking retard, and take your kids with you for Darwin's sake. You're the most faith-based voter on the board. The right could roll out a candidate who's major platform was baby eating and you'd be in here telling everyone to look at the big picture.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to make yourself feel better.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 14, 2008, 10:23 am

Zaelath wrote:
Winnow wrote:Bring it on!

China? Russia?

Canada = one of those skinny white lines.

Everyone besides Japan and the UK (not counting Russia and China) should be paying the U.S.money for protecting their interests and policing the world. Pay up! (Canada can sell us $50/barrel oil instead of paying loonys if they want to make things right)
Where's the arabs on that chart? You're all so worried about protecting us from them, surely they must be spending a lot more than that.

That's possibly the most ignorant comment I've heard from you to date.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 14, 2008, 8:44 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:
Zaelath wrote:
Winnow wrote:Bring it on!

China? Russia?

Canada = one of those skinny white lines.

Everyone besides Japan and the UK (not counting Russia and China) should be paying the U.S.money for protecting their interests and policing the world. Pay up! (Canada can sell us $50/barrel oil instead of paying loonys if they want to make things right)
Where's the arabs on that chart? You're all so worried about protecting us from them, surely they must be spending a lot more than that.
That's possibly the most ignorant comment I've heard from you to date.

That's possibly the most retarded comment I've heard from you to date.

No wait, there's so many others.. but that's a goodun.

Oh, and FYI, sarcasm. Dipshit.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 14, 2008, 8:59 pm

I don't have time to decipher whether a comment on a message board was made sarcastically or not, so I assumed you were being a prick, as hard as I know that is to believe. Dipshit.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 14, 2008, 9:32 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:I don't have time to decipher whether a comment on a message board was made sarcastically or not, so I assumed you were being a prick, as hard as I know that is to believe. Dipshit.

You're projecting again. Perhaps you should see a shrink.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 14, 2008, 11:31 pm

Funkmasterr is too busy low riding, rolling in the g's and and pimping out his phat ass bitches to SPEND TIME ON A MESSAGE BOARD THAT HE HAS CONSISTANTLY FREQUENTED FOR SEVERAL YEARS to decipher BASIC SARCASM ZEALATH YOU CUNT

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 14, 2008, 11:36 pm

Nick wrote:Funkmasterr is too busy low riding, rolling in the g's and and pimping out his phat ass bitches to SPEND TIME ON A MESSAGE BOARD THAT HE HAS CONSISTANTLY FREQUENTED FOR SEVERAL YEARS to decipher BASIC SARCASM ZEALATH YOU CUNT

Borderline racism.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 14, 2008, 11:49 pm

Predictable, and idiotic, as usual.

Funkmaster likes rap - sarcastically stereotyping Funk's love of rap sure IS RACIST EH AMIRITE???

I would say "go back to defending the oil companies", but you aren't even good at that.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 15, 2008, 12:06 am

Nick wrote:Predictable, and idiotic, as usual.

Funkmaster likes rap - sarcastically stereotyping Funk's love of rap sure IS RACIST EH AMIRITE???

I would say "go back to defending the oil companies", but you aren't even good at that.

In the real world you just have to mention something associated with a race or use a slang used by a race to be labeled a racist. Right?

Defending oil companies. The facts did that, not I.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 15, 2008, 12:26 am

suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure little buddy

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 15, 2008, 1:01 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... g-arm.html

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » August 15, 2008, 8:35 am

I'm sorry...I just have to ask thought after looking at that link...

are the "snipers" using pellet or BB sniper "rifles"? I mean...she got hit in the arm...if it were a sniper rifle, there would be lots of blood and torn sinew of flesh and muscle hanging there...not just a bump.

Second...another reporter was hit in the eye. In the fucken eye...and he kept going...

I'm not trying to be a prick, but someone had to ask.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 15, 2008, 9:57 am

Hell has frozen over...I agree with Pat Buchanan.

Blowback from Bear Baiting
By Patrick Buchanan

Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Nasser's blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili's blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours.

Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain, and America's lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli.

Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?

That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili's provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost -- in Tbilisi.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... iting.html

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 15, 2008, 2:29 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/in ... /putin.htm

Putin's Career Rooted in Russia's KGB

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 15, 2008, 2:50 pm

Stroilov: Alexander revealed, in his articles and interviews included in the Allegations, that at least two notorious Al Qaeda terrorists are secret agents of the FSB – one of whom, Aiman al Zawahiri, is bin Laden’s second-in-command.

As the former leader of the terrorist organisation Egyptian Islamic Jihad, al Zawahiri was on international lists of most wanted terrorists for many years. In 1997, he suddenly re-surfaced in Russia, where he undertook a special training course at a secret FSB base in Dagestan. After that, he was sent to Afghanistan, and joined Al Qaeda as bin Laden’s number two. Meanwhile, the FSB officers who had supervised him in Dagestan were promoted and re-assigned to Moscow. It was from them that Alexander learned about al Zawahiri.

These and other facts of FSB involvement in international terrorism, revealed by Alexander, have tremendous implications. Contrary to the view of many in the US, Russia is anything but a reliable ally of yours in the ‘war on terror’. The Kremlin is playing a treacherous double game: while enjoying the West’s support as ally, it secretly supports and manipulates the Al Qaeda through FSB agents of influence.

Interesting. I wonder how much truth there is to this.

Animale · Post by **Animale** » August 15, 2008, 3:12 pm

<shrug> Wouldn't be surprised if it's true. Afghanistan has a pretty long history of war by proxy on both sides. Of course, they always end up doing whatever the hell they feel like in the end - we'll see how long it'll take for it to start biting Russia in the ass.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 15, 2008, 3:16 pm

This whole thing could just be a republican ploy. Peace is good for Obama, war is good for McCain.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 15, 2008, 4:46 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:This whole thing could just be a republican ploy. Peace is good for Obama, war is good for McCain.

I don't put this on just the GOP. You have people on both sides, neocons and neolibs, pushing this narrative.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » August 15, 2008, 7:32 pm

i'm so rooting for russia

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » August 26, 2008, 3:34 pm

Russia just recognized both regions as independent and pointed at independent Kosovo as a precedent. Big shock.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » August 29, 2008, 4:06 pm

This whole war/operation is all over the control of oil, and nothing else. South Ossetia just provides a nice cover story (like our in Iraq withe hwhole WMD excuse.) Pipelines & Railways are being built & rerouted to take Russia out of the picture in terms on being able to control the flow of oil to the west & it's satellite countries that broke off after the collapse of the soviet union. Since then, Russia has had almost exclusive control of the flow of oil out of the caspian sea & other oil fields, and has long used that control to keep its former soviet satellite contries in check. Get out of line with Moscow? NO OIL FOR YOU!! Western oil companies have been working a very long time to finally wrestle the control of the flow from Russian hands, and Georgia was a huger player.

Russia ain't leaving Georgia anytime soon!