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A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 9:30 am
by Spang
Do you consider a nude photograph of a minor child porn?

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 9:41 am
by Boogahz
Well, considering that the "law" finds it to be porn...that's rather easy to answer.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 9:48 am
by Spang
That's what i thought too!

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 11:00 am
by VariaVespasa
Boogahz wrote:Well, considering that the "law" finds it to be porn...that's rather easy to answer.
Cite that law. I find it hard to believe there are no context caveats included.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 11:05 am
by Morgrym
Depends on if it's my own child as a baby in the bath or something to that effect. Anything over 1ish I would consider improper.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 11:37 am
by Sueven
There are context caveats and it varies by jurisdiction.

This is what I posted on the other thread. It's a quote I pulled off some site I found by googling "child pornography definition."
Many states also address this issue by prohibiting images of minors touching or displaying their bodies "for the purpose of sexual stimulation of the viewer." (See, for example, California Penal Code ยงยง 311.3-312.7).

Section (E) prohibits images of "lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area." Courts that have interpreted this section have done so broadly - "as used in the child pornography statute, the ordinary meaning of the phrase "lascivious exhibition" means a depiction which displays or brings forth to view in order to attract notice to the genitals or pubic area of children, in order to excite lustfulness or sexual stimulation in the viewer." See United States v Knox (1994). You may risk prosecution if your website displays images of minors depicted in a way that excites viewers.
I think a nude pic of an underage girl is child porn if it's a sexual picture.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 11:59 am
by Boogahz
or posted in a sexual context

pictures of your naked baby's first bath are okay, but when you post that you are "excited" by the sight of the naked baby, it is not.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 12:00 pm
by Boogahz
VariaVespasa wrote:
Boogahz wrote:Well, considering that the "law" finds it to be porn...that's rather easy to answer.
Cite that law. I find it hard to believe there are no context caveats included.

See the two " 's?

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 12:03 pm
by Lalanae
Morgrym wrote:Depends on if it's my own child as a baby in the bath or something to that effect. Anything over 1ish I would consider improper.
My mom took lots of pics of me and my sister naked in the backyard, playing in a baby pool. My sister was 1 and I was 5. I wouldn't say that my mom taking pics of me naked at 5 was improper. Not that she'd put them on the internet or anything, but they come from a happy cute family moment.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 1:50 pm
by Sirensa
Can't vote - depends on the context!

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 4:02 pm
by Sabek
Sirensa wrote:Can't vote - depends on the context!
The context is a 16 yr old girl that took a naked picture of herself to send to a celebrity in order to "get their attention".

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 4:24 pm
by Fash
then i don't see how there's any question, especially under the law. it's definitely pornography, and intended as such.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 6:03 pm
by Winnow
Boogahz wrote:or posted in a sexual context

pictures of your naked baby's first bath are okay, but when you post that you are "excited" by the sight of the naked baby, it is not.

You can write or draw anything you want concerning minors in the form of fiction. I think what you meant by context is that a naked baby in a bathtub is fine but a naked baby in a bathtub isn't ok if there's a man with an erection in there with it.

While +18 laws apply for viewing adult material, you'll have no trouble finding stories, artwork, and animation with child content if you look. You need only check the newstands in Japan to find it.

To help define what's what:
Supreme Court strikes down ban on 'virtual child porn'

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Supreme Court Tuesday struck down a 6-year-old law that prohibits the distribution and possession of virtual child pornography that appears to -- but does not -- depict real children.

The law had banned a range of techniques -- including computer-generated images and the use of youthful-looking adults -- which were designed to convey the impression of minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct.

The 6-3 ruling says the law violates the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech. The decision hands a major setback to the Justice Department and the majority of Congress in their legislative efforts to fight child pornography.

Writing for the majority, Justice Anthony Kennedy said key provisions of the Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 were "overbroad" and infringed on established protections of material with artistic value that does not violate community standards.

"Pictures of what appear to be a 17-year-old engaging in sexually explicit activity do not in every case contravene community standards," the court said.

"The (Act) also prohibits speech having serious redeeming value, proscribing the visual depiction of an idea -- that of teenagers engaging in sexual activity -- that is a fact of modern society and has been a theme in art and literature for centuries."

The opinion cited several artistically significant instances in which teenage sex was portrayed, including William Shakespeare's play "Romeo & Juliet," and the recent movies "Traffic" and "American Beauty."

Kennedy was joined by justices John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer. Clarence Thomas wrote a separate opinion agreeing with their conclusion.

Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, in a dissent, disagreed with much of the majority opinion, and was joined by Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Antonin Scalia.

In a separate dissent Rehnquist, backed by Scalia, strongly disagreed with the majority, saying "the computer-generated images are virtually indistinguishable from real children."

The ruling came in a case named Ashcroft v. The Free Speech Coalition. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft and President George W. Bush's Justice Department inherited defense of the law from former Attorney General Janet Reno and the President Clinton Justice Department, which had defended the law in the lower courts.

The Free Speech Coalition is comprised primarily of a trade association of publishers of pornographic materials.

Ashcroft said he was disappointed by the court's decision.

"This morning the United States Supreme Court made our ability to prosecute those who produce and possess child pornography immeasurably more difficult," Ashcroft said.

Ashcroft said the Justice Department would use every resource to prosecute child pornography cases and said child pornographers "will find little refuge in today's decision."

He said he would work with Congress to pass new laws that would survive the court's scrutiny.

"I believe today's opinion and the Constitution leave open legislative avenues to protect our children from harm and we will seek to develop the means to do so with legislative endeavor," Ashcroft said.

Still to be decided by the Supreme Court this spring is another case involving a separate law, which specifically restricts the access of minors to sexually explicit material on the Internet.
I had to look into this because I have a huge collection of artwork (comic/fantasy/sci fi) and wasn't interested in being thrown in jail if someone decided some of the drawings or paintings looked underage.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 7:54 pm
by Midnyte_Ragebringer
Depends if the child is yours or not and whether it is a baby picture in the tub, etc. Anything other than that, I'd say it's pron.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 8:45 pm
by masteen
Shine on outdated puritanical values!

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 9:34 pm
by Leonaerd
exactly

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 10:00 pm
by Sabek
I can't believe we have two retards who actually want to argue that kiddie porn is puritanical.
There are plenty of 18+ girls on the net to rub one out to. Go find one of them.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 15, 2007, 10:17 pm
by Siji
If the photograph is sexual in nature, then yes. Otherwise, nude does not always equal porn.

I highly doubt a bunch of teenage friends at a nudist colony taking pictures of each other sitting and laughing around the campfire singing Neil Diamonds greatest hits would be ruled porn in a court of law. It's disgusting that a large number of Americans find nudity to be so shameful.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 16, 2007, 2:01 am
by Sabek
Siji wrote:If the photograph is sexual in nature, then yes. Otherwise, nude does not always equal porn.

I highly doubt a bunch of teenage friends at a nudist colony taking pictures of each other sitting and laughing around the campfire singing Neil Diamonds greatest hits would be ruled porn in a court of law. It's disgusting that a large number of Americans find nudity to be so shameful.
I don't find nudity shameful at all, but I find it an all new level of retardocity for the people to be freaking out in the NWS forum about someone suggesting that the picture of a 16 yr old be removed to prevent any chance of teh VV being held responsible.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 16, 2007, 2:55 am
by Spang
I may be completely wrong here, but I think it's against the law to have nude pictures of minors, not including 'happy cute family moment' pictures, in the United States.
A person may not agree with it, but it's against the law. If a person wants to view nude pics of minors, there may be countries that allow that kind of sick shit, but I really don't know.

I personally don't have a problem with nudity, so long as they are 18 or older. Had I grown up in another society that was cool with nudity at any age, I may think differently. Not including 'happy cute family moments', if a person is under the age of 18 and naked, it's child pornography as far as I'm concerned.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 16, 2007, 4:08 am
by Winnow
Anything, besides what Siji is trying to explain above, is pretty much porn concerning anyone under 18.

/start slight hijack

While I can waiver on the actual age of consent (an 18 year old having sex with a 16 year old is not a 10 year prison sentence IMO for example) ,although it is the law. I'm not going to argue whether a 16 year old can consciously consent because there is no hard line age where people "get it" and some 25 year olds probably shouldn't be having sex yet (or ever) if you take the time to evaluate their mental capacity to understand things.

18 sounds like a reasonable age to set the laws for pornography. Do not confuse that with drawings or other art forms like fiction literature. I fully believe that anyone has the right to express their imagination in the form of art or writing. People fantasize about some crazy shit. People with rape fantasies don't really want to be raped the same as people that love to shoot people in FPS's don't want to (or won't at least) go around shooting people IRL. There are exceptions with all things.

I'm 100% opposed to government regulation on this type of thing besides setting age limits as to the access of such material.

Anytime I find a new site that has hentai, along with other fantasy art, I'm bound to find scat, water sports, torture, and child porn (art) either mixed in with it or in separate categories. Now, not to gross anyone out, but all you need to do is go here:

***NWS material linked***

http://www.datorrents.com/gallery/

Scroll down to the Hentai section and you'll find thousands of images that you're not going to like in a highly organized manner.

totally ignoring the lolikon section (which should be enough to freak anyone out), check the Guru section:
Guro

A place for the not so nice things in doujins or anime. Blood, gore, violence, rape, all are welcome here... Enter at your own risk as there may be adult material here
As far as I can tell, that's a Canadian site (from the DNS lookup) and it's completely open without even registering with a simple disclaimer from the operators so I'm assuming all of that material is perfectly legal in Canada at least.

While I only care for certain "non mainstream" art, I scanned the forums of the above site and the posters certainly don't seem like whackos anymore than you nut jobs on this board!

/end slight hijack

My point being, I don't want the government anywhere near regulating our imaginations in art or literature. (for +18 viewers)

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 16, 2007, 11:26 am
by Nick
The words "child porn" when being used to describe a topless picture of an actress of a hit movie who is of legal age of consent in most countries is fucking moronic. It's probably still illegal, but then again, there's not exactly a shortage of 18 year old girls in porn who look about 12.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 16, 2007, 11:37 am
by Boogahz
Nick wrote:The words "child porn" when being used to describe a topless picture of an actress of a hit movie who is of legal age of consent in most countries is fucking moronic. It's probably still illegal, but then again, there's not exactly a shortage of 18 year old girls in porn who look about 12.

Well, if she had only been topless, it might have been different...might. Unfortunately, the law of our own country is the one that would apply to us :P

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 17, 2007, 6:17 pm
by Marbus
There are some things which you can say, HEY! I'm taking the higher moral ground on this! Like stealing to save someone's life... wrong or right? could be either.

But this isn't one of those situations. The Law says that a picture of an underage adolescent or child is considered or can be considered Child Porn.

That is something you don't even take a chance on, just stay away.

Marb

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 11:38 am
by Siji
Marbus wrote:The Law says that a picture of an underage adolescent or child is considered or can be considered Child Porn.
Perhaps our new lawyer can quote this specific law for us. My understanding is that a picture alone isn't considered child pr0n, but has to have a sexual suggestion or whatever in it.

Wouldn't have either myself, but if we're talking about the law, let's get it straight.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 12:26 pm
by rhyae
slight derail maybe, but I was looking for casting kits for my friends babies hands and feet, and found this kit:
Designed by the artist and lifecaster CJ Munn, this kit contains everything you need to create a unique keepsake capturing your tiny baby's perfect peachy bottom!

Accompanied by a photo of a casting of a babies butt.

Is it me or is that just a little creepy?

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 1:03 pm
by Aslanna
Why even take the chance with how a judge (or whoever) will interpret it. If the subject in question is knowingly under 18 then that pretty much tells you all you need to know.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 1:04 pm
by Sylvus
I found it interesting that the picture was on Best Week Ever this week. Sure, they had the offending pieces mostly covered up, but it seems odd that they'd even do that if it were child porn.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 1:41 pm
by Dregor Thule
Sylvus wrote:I found it interesting that the picture was on Best Week Ever this week. Sure, they had the offending pieces mostly covered up, but it seems odd that they'd even do that if it were child porn.
Not at all if the picture was censored. It's not like it was a picture of her getting fucked, no amount of censoring would have cleaned that up enough for consumption by Joe Q. American. But her just standing there, censored, I don't find that surprising. As to the issue at hand, was it wise for Bubba to remove the picture from NWS, yes, I believe it was. Not because of some inferred sense of puritanical belief (lol), but to cover his, and our communities, ass.

Look at it like this. If this same picture had been posted on the NWS forum, but instead of the background story of her being some celebrity the only comment was "hot 16 year old girl" what would your reaction have been? I'm betting a little different for some of you. And for those saying the picture isn't sexual in nature, please. She sent it to a guy to get his rocks off to. She obviously meant it to be sexual in nature.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 1:57 pm
by masteen
Maybe I'm biased, because the 17 year old son of a close family friend got prosecuted for this shit because his girlfriend and her crew (also 16-17 year olds) sent him naked pics from a slumber party or something. Kid has to register as a goddamn sex offender, and that shit almost cost him a scholarship to a very decent out of state college.

Maybe if she'd been lured into a van with candy or something, but when a chick takes the photos of herself, isn't there some mitigation? Shouldn't there be? Exactly WHEN do we start assigning people some responsibility for their own actions?

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 2:06 pm
by Soreali
masteen wrote:Maybe I'm biased, because the 17 year old son of a close family friend got prosecuted for this shit because his girlfriend and her crew (also 16-17 year olds) sent him naked pics from a slumber party or something. Kid has to register as a goddamn sex offender, and that shit almost cost him a scholarship to a very decent out of state college.
Please correct me if I'm wrong... But I cant honestly believe he got prosecuted because his girlfriend sent some nudie picks of her and her girlfriends to him.. there has to be more of a story to it than that... Espicially if he's a year older than her and was still a minor...

Again, could be totally wrong on this one...

Getting back to the point. I'm amazed how much debate this is getting... The bottom line is if you're viewing pictures of an underaged girl naked, theres a problem... the bitch from HSM took a provactive picture of herself bare ass naked with her cash and prizes hanging out for this dude to see...And it turned out she was 16 when she did it. So I'm all for the decision for Bubba to take it down...

Why the fuck risk the rest of your life over a naked underaged chick? Seriously, theres plenty of other legal ass to see this day and age, dont be an idiot..

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 2:09 pm
by Dregor Thule
Unfortunately the law in the US doesn't feel that a minor is responsible for anything ;)

I feel for the 17 year old in your story tho. The laws are far from perfect. Who brought the charges up against him? One of the girls parents?

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 18, 2007, 5:56 pm
by masteen
Dregor Thule wrote:Unfortunately the law in the US doesn't feel that a minor is responsible for anything ;)

I feel for the 17 year old in your story tho. The laws are far from perfect. Who brought the charges up against him? One of the girls parents?
I don't know. Wasn't exactly their favorite topic of conversation, and I didn't pry, but I think the fact that he didn't clean out his e-mail folder (and thus was still in "possession" of the pics a year later) was part of it.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 19, 2007, 9:24 am
by Deward
Keeping the photos is what got him then. As soon as he turned 18 years old he was in possession of child porn. The justice system is totally fucked in this country and they will do everything they can to get you whether you deserve it or not. When it comes to child porn it is better to err on the EXTREME side of caution. If you even have a whiff that the girl is under 18 then stay away, very far away. Somewhere there is a cop, prosecutor and a judge that will fuck you for it otherwise.

Bubba did the right thing. If he hadn't taken the photo down then he could "legally" have been charged with distributing child porn. Everyone has heard of or knows someone that claims they didn't know how old he or she was. The courts do not accept that as an excuse. The minor can have a fake ID taped to their foreheads and the court still expects you to be psychic and know if they are underage.

Re: A priest, a pedophile and Michael Jackson walk into a bar...

Posted: September 19, 2007, 4:20 pm
by Bubba Grizz
Dregor Thule wrote:Unfortunately the law in the US doesn't feel that a minor is responsible for anything ;)
Unless you are black and have a noose in the deep south.