Roger Clemens

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 31, 2006, 2:09 pm

Clemens comes out of retirement for the third time and signs a 22 million $ contract for 1 year. Since he will only be pitching half the season, he will take home 12.5 million. Thats crazy for an old pitcher.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 31, 2006, 4:51 pm

Old? Yes, but still damn good.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » May 31, 2006, 5:41 pm

How was that old guy last year? Sure he might stink it up someday, but he is well worth the risk until proven otherwise. Plus it is only a 1 year deal, not like they are paying him 22m for the next 5 years....

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 31, 2006, 6:06 pm

I know he still has it, but 22 million for half a season is just a sick amount. for any pitcher.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » May 31, 2006, 6:12 pm

Lynks wrote:I know he still has it, but 22 million for half a season is just a sick amount. for any pitcher.

Escpecially one who didn't pitch well to finish up the year last year and didn't pitch well during the WBC. He hasn't pitched well since July of last year.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » May 31, 2006, 8:15 pm

he had a 1.90 era or some crap last season, how can you not pitch well from July on and have that number?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 31, 2006, 8:21 pm

How's Randy Johnson doing these days?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 31, 2006, 8:31 pm

Winnow wrote:How's Randy Johnson doing these days?

7-4, 53Ks, 5.374 ERA

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 31, 2006, 8:33 pm

Trek wrote:he had a 1.90 era or some crap last season, how can you not pitch well from July on and have that number?

Code: Select all

LAST 7 GAMES
Date	Opp	W	L	SV	IP	HA	ER	BBA	SO
08/28	LA	0	0	0	6.0	2	0	2	5
09/03	STL	0	0	0	5.0	4	2	2	2
09/09	MIL	0	1	0	3.0	5	5	5	2
09/14	FLA	1	0	0	6.1	5	1	2	4
09/19	PIT	0	1	0	5.2	11	4	1	5
10/01	CHC	1	0	0	7.0	6	1	3	5
10/06	ATL	0	1	0	5.0	6	5	3	2

It was pretty bad except for his 2nd last game.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 31, 2006, 9:08 pm

Roger Clemens had a brilliant year last season, and this is a no-brainer signing since he'll bring in at least as much money as he's being paid, regardless of how he pitches.

That said, I think his ERA was a wee bit inflated last year by the Astro's protection of him. There are some horses out there who will go out and throw no matter what. Clemens these days is pulled at the first sign of trouble. I don't know if they don't think he can work out of a funk during a game, or they want to protect his health, or his stats, or his ego, or what, but the man does not sit in and take a beating like many true aces do from time to time.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » May 31, 2006, 10:05 pm

Looks like he pitched pretty good in 4 of those 7 starts to me, of course I like it when my SP can give up less then 2 runs per start.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 1, 2006, 12:11 am

The key thing for pitchers is to eat up innings. Pitching 5 and less innings doesn't help your team. I look at those stats and don't see a 22 million dollar pitcher, I see a guy worth 5 million tops.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 1, 2006, 7:54 am

He is probably worth 22 mill in extra income alone. The attention he gets, the amount of fans he pulls in and the tons of jerseys etc he sells will be amazing.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 1, 2006, 8:34 am

I hope he does well. I personally think he is the greatest pitcher ever.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 1, 2006, 9:14 am

He was in the top 20 in the NL for innings pitched, which is pretty decent for a 43 year old. Considering he had the least ammount of run support for any SP the whole year I would say thats pretty good. Nowadays 200-250 IP is normal he had 211.

In those last 7 'horrible' starts he had last season he pitch 5 or more innings in 6 of 7 games, so its not like he wasnt pitching enough innings. The year before he was top 10 in innings for the NL at 214.

As was eluded to before they are giving him the money because of who he is and what he brings to the club/organization. The had talked about wanting him again since last season, its not like he was looking for a job, they needed to send him a # that made him come back, apparently they found it.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » June 1, 2006, 10:54 am

I am by no means a baseball expert, in fact I hate pro baseball but I think it is just good sense to have soemone who can guarantee a few good innings a game. Even if he only goes five innings in every game then he is earning his money if he does well. I follow the local baseball and softball teams and the difference between the good and great teams are their depth at the pitching position.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 1, 2006, 11:08 am

If every pitcher on your team only does 5 innings, you are going to burnout your bullpen. Superstars need to eat up 7 innings and more.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 1, 2006, 11:11 am

He lost 6 games last year 1-0.
Sucks to pitch for a team that gives you no run support.

He had two of his best seasons in Toronto on two pretty shitty teams.... at least he got some offensive support... I think he's an awesome pitcher but I don't really care for him personally. From interviews and the few times when he was playing for the Jays and he came off as being pretty aloof, self centered and not very sincere... but I guess none of that really matters on the field.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 1, 2006, 9:25 pm

Lynks wrote:If every pitcher on your team only does 5 innings, you are going to burnout your bullpen. Superstars need to eat up 7 innings and more.

Well, he averaged close to 7IP a game last year(Carpenter was just over 7), when you lose 6 1-0 games and have no run support the whole year that is damn good. In the NL the pitcher gets to bat, so they are pulled for pinch hitters in close games or when the situation is right, that means less IP on average per start. You also have to remember Houston had a pretty good pen that was topped off by some guy named Lidge.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 1, 2006, 10:32 pm

I hope he does well. I personally think he is the greatest pitcher ever.

I totally disagree with that. He's an incredible pitcher, certainly, but I'd put Walter Johnson and Bob Gibson ahead of him at the least, Sandy Koufax was far superior for a shorter period of time, and modern-day I'd probably rank him above Randy Johnson but below Greg Maddux. He's better than Pedro, but I'd take a dominant Pedro season over a dominant Clemens season.

Postseason stats:

Roger Clemens: 34 games, 12-8, 3.71 ERA, 196.7 innings, 172 K's.
Bob Gibson: 9 games, 7-2, 1.89 ERA, 8 CG, 81 innings, 92 K's.

Both pitchers won an MVP award, which demonstrates that both were absolutely dominant at some point in their career. Gibson threw up what is among the best pitching season in baseball history:

34 games, 28 CG, 22-9, 13 SHO, 304 innings, 62 BB, 268 K's, 1.12 ERA

After that season, they lowered the mound.

Clemens has absolutely had a longer career, and has been more productive in total, but Gibson was better when he was at his best and was likely the greatest clutch pitcher in history, if not the greatest clutch player in history.

Walter Johnson is hard to compare, because he did a lot of pitching in the pre-Ruth era, but you have to like a guy who throws 6,000 innings, 110 shutouts, 531 complete games, and has a career era of 2.17. He also won 417 games playing for one of the worst teams in the majors, and probably could have crossed the 500 barrier if he played for the A's or the Yankees or someone like that.

Greg Maddux doesn't have the raw power of Clemens, but he's been far, far more consistent. The Braves had that streak of consecutive division titles going, he had that streak of 15-win seasons going, and, despite the Braves reputation for choking, Maddux has as many World Series titles (one) as Clemens. He also has fewer losses (one to three).

My big problem with Clemens as the 'best ever' is that, during a four-year stretch right in the middle of his prime, he went 11-14, 9-7 (strike-shortened), 10-5, and 10-13, with era's of 4.46, 2.85 (strike-shortened), 4.18 and 3.63. Also, his era's with the Yankees are 4.60, 3.70, 3.51, 4.35, and 3.91. That's just not very good. Since winning his first Cy, he's had three seasons with era's above 4 and 5 seasons with era's above 3. For a guy who is largely considered great because of the breadth and longevity of his work, that's a problem.

This was a long post.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » June 1, 2006, 10:57 pm

He is a primadonna cocksucker just like Ken Griffey Jr, Barry Bonds and that other cocksucker, who's name escapes me atm. I don't care how much they pay you. Travel with the team, be part of the team and stop being such a loner-private-office cocksucker.

Oh yeah, that other cocksucker is Kevin Brown.

Fuck those guys and their fans.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 1, 2006, 11:16 pm

I actually agree with the 2 posts above this one

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 1, 2006, 11:17 pm

I actually agree with the 2 posts above this one

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 1, 2006, 11:18 pm

Even with the double post it still holds true!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 2, 2006, 12:10 am

I preferred Nolan Ryan! Roger Clemons was cool the one time I met him at the UT alumni game many years back though.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 2, 2006, 12:25 am

Randy Johnson pitched a perfect game!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 2, 2006, 12:46 am

along with Charlie Robertson, and Don Larsen, and Len Barker, and Mike Witt, and David Wells, and David Cone, and Kenny Rogers, and Tom Browning

I also think Nolan Ryan is overrated as hell, but that's a separate discussion. Suffice it to say that his winning percentage is nearly identical to the cumulative winning percentages of the teams he played on. I'll do the math if you want.

Edit: Did the math.

Nolan Ryan:
324-292, .526
Nolan Ryan's teams:
2022-1969, .507
Difference: +.019

For comparisons sake, another big-armed hurler with a long career:

Walter Johnson:
417-279, .599
Walter Johnson's teams:
1559-1609, .492
Difference: +.107

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 2, 2006, 1:39 am

Sueven wrote:along with Charlie Robertson, and Don Larsen, and Len Barker, and Mike Witt, and David Wells, and David Cone, and Kenny Rogers, and Tom Browning

So nine pitchers in the history of baseball have pitched a perfect game and Randy Johnson was one of them. Anyone ever do it twice?

I thought seventeen pitchers have recorded perfect games. (only seven in the harder National League though)

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 2, 2006, 1:48 am

That wasn't meant to be comprehensive, it was a list of relatively small-name pitchers who had pitched perfect games in order to demonstrate the lack of usefulness in using one game as an evaluative mechanism for a pitchers career. Or seven games, in Nolan Ryan's case.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » June 2, 2006, 1:54 am

You can do all the math you want to, I will do this math:

5714 K's in ~5386IP
7 no hitters
300+ wins
222 complete games
61 shutouts
faced 22575 batters and gave up 321HR
3.19 career ERA in 27 years of pitching

Sure 'anybody' can do that if they pitch in 4 different decades.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 2, 2006, 2:07 am

Sure, he's a good pitcher and a hall of famer. He's not a top five or top ten pitcher in baseball history, though.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 2, 2006, 2:14 am

Rollie Fingers should be, if only for the moustache.

(this is how adults make drunken posts)

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 2, 2006, 2:14 am

Sueven wrote:Sure, he's a good pitcher and a hall of famer. He's not a top five or top ten pitcher in baseball history, though.

Who said he was?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » June 2, 2006, 2:19 am

Man, Nolan Ryan was a fireballer. He also tore the shit out of Nuprin commercials(or was it Advil?).

noel · Post by **noel** » June 2, 2006, 8:34 am

Sylvus wrote:Rollie Fingers should be, if only for the moustache.

(this is how adults make drunken posts)

Truant · Post by **Truant** » June 2, 2006, 1:01 pm

Canelek wrote:Man, Nolan Ryan was a fireballer. He also tore the shit out of Nuprin commercials(or was it Advil?).

Advil.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » June 2, 2006, 1:46 pm

While I respect Roger Clemens, I just don't like the guy. When he threw the end of the bat in the direction of Mike Piazza during the WS (nevermind he threw at his head a few times in the past, one of which put him on the DL) that pretty much solidified his place as a Pro PoS. He pitched in the AL at the time, and I was EXTREMELY disappointed that the Mets didn't drill him in the fuckin ear when he came to bat during intraleague play. Instead, they throw three feet behind him. Oooo... that sure is retribution for putting their HoF catcher on the DL. Yes, I would like him on my team, but the fact that he gets little run support means that either the hitters think they can slack off and can rely more on pitching or they just don't care for him. It just may be the latter. He certainly isn't the best pitcher in my book. Christy Mathewson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Lefty Grove, Warren Spahn... take your pick. Hell, I'd probably put Satchel Paige before Roger Clemens.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 2, 2006, 5:46 pm

Who said he was?

No one in particular.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 2, 2006, 7:32 pm

Sueven wrote:
Who said he was?
No one in particular.

Ah, ok. I have just been trying to figure out where liking a pitcher implied that one felt that pitcher was "one of the best" like some people seem to be arguing about/against.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » June 2, 2006, 9:59 pm

Yeah, I was just going off the deep end really.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 2, 2006, 10:26 pm

Sueven wrote:Yeah, I was just going off the deep end really.

Are there diving boards there, or does it have one of those slides that go in circles?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 3, 2007, 9:49 am

Well, it's that time again. Clemens should decide if/where he'll be coming back this year in around two weeks. He was commenting during a local golf tournament that his agents have already been fielding calls from the Astros, Yankees, and Red Sox. He plans on going "away" for a couple weeks to get into pitching shape before making any decisions. Any bets/guesses on where he'll end up this time, and how much he'll get for it?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 3, 2007, 10:10 am

The Yankees bullpen is on the DL all the time so I'm guessing them. If anything, they'll sign him to make sure he doesn't land on a team like the Red Sox.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » May 3, 2007, 11:49 am

Saw a headline yesterday with a quote from him saying end of may was his personal deadline for the decision.

I could only see him playing for the Yankees if the money is retardedly more than anyone else. He does this because he wants more rings. He's trying to end up on the team that looks like it's going to win the whole shebang. Honestly, if the Yankees don't change something and get out of the funk they're in, I don't see him picking them.

(Disclaimer: Statements presented in the second paragraph are my opinion only and not intended to be represented as actual facts. Suck it.)

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 3, 2007, 11:54 am

If he wants to be on a contender, he should try Cleveland this year. I don't know if they have the cash for him though or if he even wants to go there.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 3, 2007, 3:45 pm

Wait, did someone just say that Nolan Ryan wasn't one of the best pitchers ever? Nigga, is you crazy?

7 no-nos. SEVEN.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 3, 2007, 7:35 pm

How many perfect games?

Randy Johnson has one!

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » May 4, 2007, 11:33 am

Truant wrote:Saw a headline yesterday with a quote from him saying end of may was his personal deadline for the decision.

I could only see him playing for the Yankees if the money is retardedly more than anyone else. He does this because he wants more rings. He's trying to end up on the team that looks like it's going to win the whole shebang. Honestly, if the Yankees don't change something and get out of the funk they're in, I don't see him picking them.

(Disclaimer: Statements presented in the second paragraph are my opinion only and not intended to be represented as actual facts. Suck it.)

having just about their entire starting lineup on the dl doesn't help any team all that much

Soreali · Post by **Soreali** » May 6, 2007, 6:23 pm

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/art ... p&c_id=nyy

And that settles that..

Truant · Post by **Truant** » May 6, 2007, 9:43 pm

Chidoro wrote:
Truant wrote:Saw a headline yesterday with a quote from him saying end of may was his personal deadline for the decision.

I could only see him playing for the Yankees if the money is retardedly more than anyone else. He does this because he wants more rings. He's trying to end up on the team that looks like it's going to win the whole shebang. Honestly, if the Yankees don't change something and get out of the funk they're in, I don't see him picking them.

(Disclaimer: Statements presented in the second paragraph are my opinion only and not intended to be represented as actual facts. Suck it.)
having just about their entire starting lineup on the dl doesn't help any team all that much

The only person from the starting lineup that has been on the DL this season is Matsui. Posada missed a few games but was never actually on the DL. The Yankees have had 6 pitchers on (or are still on) the DL.

So in summary, the starting line up is not the problem, the bullpen is.

Grats on Clemens btw.