VeeshanVault

Hey Guys...

I'm not an MT and I need some help with some information please. I've been told by one of my Warriors that kicking a mob while the MT trys to build agro actually helps the MT raise agro quicker... is this accurate? Any MTs out there can give me any insight to this?

Outside of Taunt weapons.... are there any tricks or technigues a Warrior should employ to build agro quickly and be able to hold it?

thanks guys

Stand close

Wait a minute, this isn't an eq board, wtf

i'm gunna assume you mean the mt kicks while taunting to build agro, then yeah, kick helps but who knows how much. While mt'ing a hard hitter however, kicking = bad because it's an extra check for a riposte. That sucks if your fighting mobs hitting for ultrahigh damage.

Warrior taunt not Bard taunt.

Actually... the first qestion pertains to a melee 'other' than the MT kicking the mob... to stunn him while the MT builds agro.

Warriors taunt?

I've been told by one of my Warriors that kicking a mob while the MT trys to build agro actually helps the MT raise agro quicker... is this accurate?

I can't think of any way to prove or disprove this.

MT keeping aggro is as much the job of everyone else present as it is the tank.
That or DWing EB weapons but relying on procs for aggro control is teh suk.

in my opinion kicks generate negligible agro from the perspective of non-tanking melee.

Voronwë wrote:in my opinion kicks generate negligible agro from the perspective of non-tanking melee.

I agree. They should just give warriors Snare, that would solve all the problems.

Every attack on a mob generates aggro, therefore if your MT is kicking/slamming before he/she calls in the troops then it will help generate more hate faster. As Stragi said it can also increase your chance of riposte. And once the fight starts, the kick/slam may be of small relative value, but if the mob isn't too nasty, it may help keep aggro centered on your MT. Using disarm is another common "taunt add" that tanks will try but the value of this is even harder to quantify. You can parse your logs to see what DPS the kick/slam does, you can't for disarm.

As Tanc said, keeping aggro on an MT is the responsibility of an entire raid force.

/agree xou

ok.. so kicking generates negligible agro and can increase chances of riposte.

So a non-MT-melee shouldn't be kicking the mob or slamming the mob to stun it while MT builds agro... this the concensus?

If I may... how would this topic of taunt relate to a mob like Vindi?

Fynris wrote:ok.. so kicking generates negligible agro and can increase chances of riposte.

So a non-MT-melee shouldn't be kicking the mob or slamming the mob to stun it while MT builds agro... this the concensus?

If I may... how would this topic of taunt relate to a mob like Vindi?

you don't get riposted on if you are standing from behind or the side, which is where I, as a ranger, always stand. So i will keep kicking

it gives me something to do while i wait for nukes to refresh too

basically when you fight vindi, you are probably gonna have your MT backed into a corner. That way everybody else gets his back.

So since you are still at the vindi stage, your warriors don't have enraging blow weapons to help him hold agro. To compensate you have the enchanter spells horrifying visage, etc. Give the MT some time to build agro, 15 extra seconds or whatever (you'll have to play with this number to optimize for your force composition).

Your rangers, monks, and rogues need to be managing their agro as well. Not being dipshits and getting to the top of the hate list. Pal/SK if they go 2h , they should be fine if they avoid weapons with really annoying procs.

On vindi, if you have a tank who isn't getting much taunt over the rest of the party, have them solo the mob for a few seconds before they pull him back into the corner. Any damage the tank does will increase his agro, so kicks or bashes would help, though, a bash/kick for 15 is very little compared to the possible riposite for 400-700

But sometimes it's FUN to piss off the MT by taking aggro!

The most surefire way to get and maintain agro is to be the person who pulls the mob. If you're the MT on your Vindi raid, pulling Vindi yourself will ensure that he sticks to you like glue for the first few seconds of the fight. After that, it's up to you and your groups to dance the delicate dance needed to allow warrior "taunt" to work.

Basically, kicking him will help you gain aggro (albeit negligibly), and you're going to need all the aggro help you can get. Vindi doesn't hit hard enough to consider his ripostes on kicks a serious threat.

Neost wrote:But sometimes it's FUN to piss off the MT by taking aggro!

No. It's not. It just shows you don't know what the fuck you're doing.

No, it's fun.

Akaran_D wrote:No, it's fun.

No, it makes you an asshole.

Here's why I say this...

There are people who think that if a warrior isn't holding aggro, it's somehow the fault of the warrior. This is generally speaking, bullshit. All a warrior can do it pull, time his first taunt for when the mob is engaged, kick/taunt/disarm every time they're available and have the best weapons he can acquire/afford. If the warrior is doing all of those things on a raid or an experience group, he's doing the right thing.

You fucking idiots act like it's some major accomplishment to take aggro from a warrior. It's not. It's fucking easy. The devs themselves have said taunt is STILL not working right.

If you are generating too much aggro, you're going to get hit, going to take damage, and going to waste cleric mana. Wasting cleric mana lowers the efficiency of your raid/group. Helping the MT keep aggro is everyone's responsibility. If you think it's just the responsibility of the warrior you're a fucking tool.

But keep on thinking it's funny. Like I said, it just illuminates you as someone who doesn't know what the fuck you're doing.

Very well said Aranuil.

Also on a mob like Vindi "getting agro" isn't as big of a deal if folks understand he is 99.99999% proximity agro. Just ensure everyone is attacking from as far back as possible and agro shouldn't be an issue.

pretty sure Neost is kidding

but it is also fun not healing some people since you know they are gonna get snuffed regardless

ok, let me explain.

I don't do this anymore because I've already proved my point to the snobs I personally know (IE: I never do it at a raid and only do it in exp groups when necessary to either save the group or to prove the point - DO NOT REPLY WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THIS). Every once in a while you get some snobbish jackass of a warrior or a cleric or a whatever that insits that warriros are the best tanks for everything, or that hybrids are simply melee and shouldn't be considered as tanks for anything - exp in exp groups, not so much raids anymore, the point has allready been proven.

Occasionally, one has to sneak in a couple stuns here and there and then sit back and smoke a gnome while you watch as the warrior pathetically tries to pry a_random_exp_mob02 off of yer ass.

So yes.
Giving a /rude is fun.
This, is a /rude.

I'd always been told taunting when you already have agro has no real benefit. A succesful taunt moves you to the top of the agro list, a concurrent succesful taunt won't do anything more as it's not a numerical hate value like a weapon proc. It might make your taunt button unavailable when your cleric gets agro though.

Edit - Which would follow that giveing the MT ~15 seconds personal time with the mob before others engaging is the only reliable way to keep the mob on him at the begining.

You can play around with it on mobs that give a message when taunt suceeds and see what I mean.

Akaran_D wrote:ok, let me explain.

I don't do this anymore because I've already proved my point to the snobs I personally know (IE: I never do it at a raid and only do it in exp groups when necessary to either save the group or to prove the point - DO NOT REPLY WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THIS).

You post, I'll reply.

Every once in a while you get some snobbish jackass of a warrior or a cleric or a whatever that insits that warriros are the best tanks for everything, or that hybrids are simply melee and shouldn't be considered as tanks for anything - exp in exp groups, not so much raids anymore, the point has allready been proven.

Honestly, I don't give a shit who tanks. Whether they're a warrior, paladin, shadowknight, or ranger, have at it, but once the MT has been designated, it's EVERYONE'S responsibility to ensure they have aggro.

Occasionally, one has to sneak in a couple stuns here and there and then sit back and smoke a gnome while you watch as the warrior pathetically tries to pry a_random_exp_mob02 off of yer ass.

Again, you act like this is some major accompishment. Stop grouping with stupid warriors and you won't have to deal with this frustration.

Edit: Aabidano, if you're the MT, I would highly recommend you not miss pressing your taunt button, ever.

Akaran_D wrote:Every once in a while you get some snobbish jackass of a warrior or a cleric or a whatever that insits that warriros are the best tanks for everything, or that hybrids are simply melee and shouldn't be considered as tanks for anything - exp in exp groups, not so much raids anymore, the point has allready been proven.

Forgive me, but I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that warriors are *not* better at tanking mobs than a paladin/SK? In experience groups, yea sure, hybrids can MT for you. But to say that they're better at taking damage than warriors is just silly. There is a multitude of reasons why warriors are selected to MT over every other class.

I guess I can see why you would want to try and fuck with somebody to try and put them in their place. But generally speaking, I'd say let the warrior tank.

If that's what you're saying here. Like I said, I believe I'm confused.

Aranuil wrote:Edit: Aabidano, if you're the MT, I would highly recommend you not miss pressing your taunt button, ever.

/g Incoming agro
/cast 3
/g %t slowed

Aabidano wrote:

Aranuil wrote:Edit: Aabidano, if you're the MT, I would highly recommend you not miss pressing your taunt button, ever.

/g Incoming agro
/cast 3
/g %t slowed

The Shaman!

No, I'm saying Paladins / Sk's can hold agro better than warriors, and in some situations, should be used instead. Anymore, those situations are mostly exp groups. I'm *never* going to say - not with the release of pop, anyways - that warriors are not as good as taking dmg as a hybrid is, or that a hybrid can take dmg as well as a warrior, even with similiar gear and hp.

Honestly, I don't give a shit who tanks. Whether they're a warrior, paladin, shadowknight, or ranger, have at it, but once the MT has been designated, it's EVERYONE'S responsibility to ensure they have aggro.

Agree. Which is why I don't do it anymore. Was fun when I was 55 pulling agro off of a egotistical 60 warrior to prove a point. Not fun now (or as fun).

Stop grouping with stupid warriors and you won't have to deal with this frustration.

I quit joining pickup groups for just this reason. Now that pop is out, I'm having to start joining them again.. feh.. to get anywhere, since soloing is no longer an option. Unfortunately, in pickup groups, you never know if someone is stupid until you've been with them for a few minutes.

Akaran_D wrote:No, I'm saying Paladins / Sk's can hold agro better than warriors

This is news to who?

...and in some situations, should be used instead.

You understand that the reason a warrior is chosen as the MT is because he typically has higher HPs and AC than a hybrid? It has little to do with whether or not it's easier for a class other than warrior to hold aggro. OF COURSE IT'S EASIER. THIS IS NOT NEWS. If warriors could hold aggro like it was nothing, none of the other classes would have to worry about controlling their aggro and the combat system in EQ would be more trivial than it already is.

Having said that, if you have a paladin or SK with more HPs/AC than a warrior, they should be considered for MTing a given mob.

I can tank!

No, really.

Stop laughing.

Please?

*sulk*

I never ever said it was news to anyone, just pointing out what I was saying for Sunserae.

NOTHING in this post is news. I'm just saying I find it fun because on occasion I like to piss an egotistcal warrior off who thinks he or she is gods gift to tankdom.

Settle down.

Akaran_D wrote:I never ever said it was news to anyone, just pointing out what I was saying for Sunserae.

NOTHING in this post is news. I'm just saying I find it fun because on occasion I like to piss an egotistcal warrior off who thinks he or she is gods gift to tankdom.

Settle down.

People who have an ego about tanking, or about Everquest in general need fucking help.

As a rogue,

1. <EXP Groups> you have to walk a fine line on agro. I like to be the second most hated. If the main tank dies or is slowed. I can step in and take agro off the clerics or casters that have less HP AC then me.

2. <RAIDs> I stay as far from the top of the list as possible. Example.. Rhag two. If you spin the mob once it can DoT all the melee. The Main, rampage tank should be the only ones taking damage.

We as melee or casters are responsible for OUR agro.

Thanks clarification Akaran.

Feel teh

I use Disarm too, even though the mob may not have an equipped weapon or can't be disarmed.. I've turned mobs back onto me once I hit my disarm key. Sometimes, it just keeps me that high on the hate list.

With that note, I will add:
RAGE! RAGE! RAGE! TURN OFF ATTACK TALLANVOR!!!@#$%

Akaran_D wrote:No, I'm saying Paladins / Sk's can hold agro better than warriors, and in some situations, should be used instead. Anymore, those situations are mostly exp groups.

And sabotaging your raid is the best way to express your feelings on this matter? If your raid leader is under the impression that you can't even manage aggro while NOT the MT, do you really think he's going to let you try your hand at MTing?

If you're pulling a mob off your MT, you're fucking up. It's not an accomplishment, it's not amusing, and it pisses everyone off -- most especially the MT, who takes an inordinate amount of shit from everyone else on the raid if he/she fails to hold aggro. It's as if people forget that warriors are the worst aggro-acquiring class in the game (ironic, no?).

Sargeras wrote:With that note, I will add:
RAGE! RAGE! RAGE! TURN OFF ATTACK TALLANVOR!!!@#$%

Haha! Mean

Millie!

1. Paladins are probably the best in the game at holding aggro in exp group setting.

2. If I am in a group and the warrior is doing his job, regardless if he is an egotistical maniac, LET HIM TANK! Nothing will piss off your healer faster than some idiot trying to make a point and making said healer waste mana.

3. It is the end result that counts. Warrior tanking well and is bragging. I am getting steady stream of EXP and have mana for buffs, heals and to melee the odd time. To me I could give a rat's ass if he wants to brag about his prowess. Show me the EXP.

Millie.. I don't do it in raids. I don't ADVOCATE doing it in raids. EVER.

Exp groups are a totally, utterly different story.

Akaran_D wrote:Millie.. I don't do it in raids. I don't ADVOCATE doing it in raids. EVER.

Exp groups are a totally, utterly different story.

I've booted people from my groups for less.

Aru.. remove da burr from yer ass.

I got stopped there for a sec and hit the reply button too damn early.

1: IT IS FUN for me, WHEN the guy has an ego the size of a small mountain and is insulting the hell out of me / my class in the process.

2: I DO NOT do it on raids. I DO NOT advocate you doing on raids.

3: The ONLY time I attempt to draw agro when I am in a group and not the MT (which doesn't happen anymore, I'm sorry) and the fact stated at number is is not in consideration is when the enc is OOM or the warrior is LD or I am asked to off tank. PERIOD>

Shit.

Akaran_D wrote:Aru.. remove da burr from yer ass.

I got stopped there for a sec and hit the reply button too damn early.

1: IT IS FUN for me, WHEN the guy has an ego the size of a small mountain and is insulting the hell out of me / my class in the process.

2: I DO NOT do it on raids. I DO NOT advocate you doing on raids.

3: The ONLY time I attempt to draw agro when I am in a group and not the MT (which doesn't happen anymore, I'm sorry) and the fact stated at number is is not in consideration is when the enc is OOM or the warrior is LD or I am asked to off tank. PERIOD>

Shit.

WHO THE FUCK IS ARU?!?!



J/K

Aranuil wrote:People who have an ego about tanking, or about Everquest in general need fucking help.

Heh, I am suprised anyone could be proud of getting the virtual crap beat out of him/her