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Fuck Sony/Toshiba format wars
Posted: March 15, 2006, 12:34 pm
by Animalor
And go LG for thinking the same.
1 machine, will play both formats. No questions asked.
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArtic ... BLURAY.xml
Posted: March 15, 2006, 2:14 pm
by Siji
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict Blu-Ray to win the battle. Sony knows how to market products and has more companies behind it than Toshita. Not to mention, it's technically superior:
HD-DVD
15 GB Storage
19 MB/s xfer rate
Blu-Ray
25 GB Storage
36 MB/s xfer rate
So it holds 67% more and is almost twice as fast..
Posted: March 15, 2006, 2:19 pm
by Skogen
Last I heard Blu Ray was extremely sensitive to surface scratches....then later I heard TDK has developed some super-duper coating that helped aleviate this problem. Any have the deets?
Posted: March 15, 2006, 2:23 pm
by cadalano
I think i just posted something but i got an error screen and lost the post. We'll see if it shows up magically in a few weeks or whatever.
anyway, here's a paraphrased repost:
LG isnt the first to do this. Samsung tried but got cockblocked due to licensing agreements that restrict a device from supporting both formats (from what I read). I would really like to know why LG is now able to go forward with this. I couldnt find any information on it.
They just signed an agreement with Toshiba to share patent rights on new technology for the HD:DVD format before nixing their Blu-ray player rollout and making this move. I dont blame them for it at all, its obviously a smart position to put yourself into where you can sell guns to both countries. But I dont really see them as crusaders for the consumer, or whatever. Its all about the Yenjamins, baby.
Posted: March 15, 2006, 2:57 pm
by cadalano
Siji wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and predict Blu-Ray to win the battle. Sony knows how to market products and has more companies behind it than Toshita. Not to mention, it's technically superior:
HD-DVD
15 GB Storage
19 MB/s xfer rate
Blu-Ray
25 GB Storage
36 MB/s xfer rate
So it holds 67% more and is almost twice as fast..
HD-DVD's can be manufactured with existing processes. Not a lot of modification needed. Thats largely because the cover layers are the same size as the current DVD format. Blu-ray is gonna be much more expensive for the companies producing them, at least initially. That may or may not affect the price for the consumer, but it will obviously help the ability for HD:DVD manufacturers to turn a profit.
And yeah, Blu-ray offers more storage space and speed. But both formats can house a high definition movie with plenty of legroom. Youre gonna be paying for 67% extra space.. but what are you gonna do with it?
Its still a crapshoot and really depends on how the big players decide to play their hand. If the HD:DVD proponents are smart they should be happy about dual compatible players. That will make it even easier to play on the only strength they have and offer the consumer the exact same movie that they would get on a Blu-ray but for a cheaper price.
Personally thats how I predict it. If HD:DVD ends up being offered cheaper for the consumer to buy (which again, is their ONLY strength and they would be fucking goons to not utilize it), then HD:DVD will take over.
Posted: March 15, 2006, 2:57 pm
by Winnow
Siji wrote:
HD-DVD
15 GB Storage
19 MB/s xfer rate
Blu-Ray
25 GB Storage
36 MB/s xfer rate
So it holds 67% more and is almost twice as fast..
Way to pick the lowest form of HD-DVD and compare it to Blu-Ray! Both formats will have larger formats.
Why did Microsoft and Intel side with HD DVD?
The companies cited several reasons for their decision. They said the 50GB version of Blu-ray was "nowhere in sight," giving the 30GB HD DVD the capacity advantage for the time being. They also said HD DVD guarantees a feature they want, "managed copy," which lets a computer user copy a movie to a computer hard drive so it can be beamed around the house. The iHD software offers "greater interactivity," for example, letting a small screen with a movie director be overlaid onto the main video screen. HD DVD manufacturing is easier than for Blu-ray's BD-ROM, and its "hybrid disk" feature will mean an owner of today's DVD player will be able to buy a dual-format disk that can be played in tomorrow's HD DVD player.
I'm not too worried about it. Companies have been planning dual format HD-DVD drives and they've got a headstart this time over the mess that happened with DVD +R-R. All drives handle both of those formats now along with dual layer, blah blah blah.
Posted: March 15, 2006, 4:57 pm
by cadalano
Winnow wrote:Siji wrote:
HD-DVD
15 GB Storage
19 MB/s xfer rate
Blu-Ray
25 GB Storage
36 MB/s xfer rate
So it holds 67% more and is almost twice as fast..
Way to pick the lowest form of HD-DVD and compare it to Blu-Ray! Both formats will have larger formats.
He also "picked" the lowest form of Blu-ray. Unless you are talking about something other than multiple layers?
Posted: March 15, 2006, 5:04 pm
by Winnow
cadalano wrote:
He also "picked" the lowest form of Blu-ray. Unless you are talking about something other than multiple layers?
You mean the easily scratched 25GB Blu Ray vs the available and easily produced 30GB HD-DVD?
These things are going to be for day to day use. They must be at least as durable as today's DVDs.
Blu-ray's difficulties, Knox explained, begin with the technology itself, and the idea that its 50GB dual-layer capacity is superior to HD DVD's 30GB. Through the use of better codec technology, such space is not actually needed for high-definition movies. In fact, Blu-ray admitted to BetaNews that most discs won't go beyond the 25GB mark.
Although both formats are being demoed at the show, there has been much speculation about production problems in the Blu-ray camp. Knox confirmed the rumors, and said the problem involves Blu-ray's numerical aperture. In order to store more data on a disc, the laser is bent into a cone shape.
The aperture setting on standard DVD is 0.6, with the setting for HD DVD a slightly smaller 0.65. The additional capacity is provided by the blue laser technology. However, in order to store a full 25GB per layer, Blu-ray has adopted a 0.85 aperture, meaning the divots on the optical layer are smaller and more prone to error.
Additionally, the smaller aperture requires a thinner disc and smaller layer spacing, which makes the medium more vulnerable. Initially, Blu-ray was designed with an external cartridge to protect the disc. But now, the group is utilizing a special protective coating that has not yet been finalized due to disagreements.
Given HD DVD's design, the requirements are similar to standard DVDs, which has eliminated manufacturing problems. Knox said that Blu-ray could see a much higher production flaw rate, as the equipment has minimal room for error during both the medium and content manufacturing, as well as the reading of discs by Blu-ray players.
Additionally, Knox refuted claims that Blu-ray's use of Java for its menu system and interactive features will make development easier. He explained that Blu-ray is actually using an imported specification from Europe named JEM. Due to JEM's large number of instructions, it will be nearly impossible for hardware manufacturers to ensure devices will function under any circumstance.
Knox said that HD DVD can verify that every disc will play on every player, as its iHD specification is DHTML-based rather than built with Java. This also means reduced production time for studios and firms developing the HD content. Hewlett-Packard recently asked Blu-ray to adopt iHD, but the group balked at the demand.
Regarding the notion of limited content in the HD DVD format, BetaNews was told that while HD DVD does not have the number of studios its rival touts, the Blu-ray Disc Association simply wanted "as many logos as possible on their PowerPoint slide."
Knox highlighted the fact that of the American Film Institute's Top 100 movies, more than 60 were from studios supporting the HD DVD format, and a majority of the major-grossing films of the last three years were from those same studios. HD DVD has focused on quality, not quantity, Knox said.
HD DVD recently signed foreign and independent studios, including European filmmaker Studio Canal. By the end of 2006 HD DVD will have roughly 200 titles available, more than Blu-ray has announced thus far.
Another problem plaguing Blu-ray development is a requirement placed on the organization when it signed a deal with Fox Studios. Fox had demanded that high-definition DVDs utilize a stricter copy-protection format than AACS, which is employed by both Blu-ray and HD DVD. While HD DVD rejected the demand, Blu-ray conceded.
Knox said Fox was unhappy with the decision to let consumers watch movies where they please using Mandatory Managed Copy. Managed Copy has become a contentious point in the next-generation DVD battle, with HP demanding that Blu-ray require the technology on all discs. However, as Fox's proprietary DRM will run after AACS, the studio could theoretically restrict such portability.
This proprietary format is also rumored to have delayed the PlayStation 3, which will include a Blu-ray drive for the masses. Pioneer is set to launch a $1,800 Blu-ray player in May.
HD DVD, meanwhile, is launching its first players in March. Toshiba will bring two models to market with price points of $499 and $799 USD. The high-end model will feature improved output connections for home theater aficionados who have componentized systems.
For the average consumer, with surround sound systems "from a box," the $499 HD DVD player will be sufficient, Knox said. Consumers will see the $499 models in stores such as Best Buy, while the $799 player will be available through specialty retailers where home theater buffs can additionally purchase high-end audio systems.
Posted: March 15, 2006, 5:07 pm
by Sabek
Sony marketed Betamax so wonderfully.
Posted: March 15, 2006, 6:20 pm
by cadalano
Yeah. And everyone has an ATRAC3plus player these days, right? Whats MP3????
Posted: March 15, 2006, 6:23 pm
by cadalano
Winnow wrote:cadalano wrote:
He also "picked" the lowest form of Blu-ray. Unless you are talking about something other than multiple layers?
You mean the easily scratched 25GB Blu Ray vs the available and easily produced 30GB HD-DVD?
These things are going to be for day to day use. They must be at least as durable as today's DVDs.
Check it out, I just made that Blu-ray double layer like the HD:DVD you're comparing it to and now its 50GB. Math is fun.
You could have just said "No. I am talking about multiple layers."
The scratch thing is a good point, but doesnt a scratch on a multiple layer disc fudge the data on all layers?
Posted: March 16, 2006, 6:35 am
by vn_Tanc
Just to act as counterweight to Winnow's shilling for anything remotely related to the 360:
Sony marketed Betamax so wonderfully
Ya know Sony's Beta system is still the industry standard for broadcast quality video transfer? The availability of porn on VHS is what won with VCR wars not the relative merits of the hardware
Blu-Ray does more and faster than HDDVD. What's to argue about?
Posted: March 16, 2006, 6:40 pm
by Winnow
vn_Tanc wrote:
Blu-Ray does more and faster than HDDVD. What's to argue about?
It's reliability, difficulty to produce, durability, error rate, inability to put both an old DVD and new HD-DVD on same disc, cost, media availability for the format...should I go on or were you kidding?
Posted: March 16, 2006, 7:30 pm
by Zaelath
If I want high definition I head to the Cinemaxx (such a crappy marketing name).
If I want good definition I get a DVD.
If I want to waste more money than I could ever spend at the cinema, I'll be an early adopter of Blu-Ray *OR* HD-DVD.
I recall seeing Super-VHS back in the late 80's and it looked fantastic compared to VHS... but it never sold, and it didn't have to overcome consumer resistance to DRM.
It will be interesting to see if either format survives, but I won't be betting my cash on it.
Posted: March 18, 2006, 10:17 pm
by Xanupox
HD-DVD is going to win this war, Sony will have to give in eventually.
The HD-DVD is cheaper to produce, more stable and is backed by more component manufacturers than the Sony Blu-ray.
The fact that Blu-ray can hold more data is really not much of a player, since both formats can hold more than 3 times that of a current DVD. Blu-ray is overkill, it is unstable and it breaks.
HD-DVD sounds like something you need for your home entertainment, Blu-ray sounds like some medical equipment or an exotic fish.