VeeshanVault

What loot system did you like in EQ. Not which one you were in with your guild but the one that you liked. I know there are more so if you really don't fit either then you don't have to vote This is for something outside of EQ.

I only kill for food.

i am a big fan of twinking the cybersluts first

I prefer the "I get what I want, when I want it" system

Wow... I can't believe how many people favor NBG / nazi loot / officer loot. It's a birth canal for corruption.

Vis Maior has my favorite system. Each item is given a set value, carefully decided by a program created by the people in charge of maintaining the database. Incoming quote...

vis maior's point system wrote:We use a points in=points out system. This means that the points given out for a raid are equal to the points spent on the raid.

EXAMPLE

3 200 point items drop on a raid attended by 60 people, each person on the raid recieves 10 points, because 600 points of loot was bought divided between 60 people.

Some raids, no loot is bought due to a variety of reasons (we wipe, no one wants it, none dropped). These raids sometimes are given BOT points so the people there have something to show for being there.

EXAMPLE

We wipe learning a new mob. It's decided that everyone that was there will get 10 BOT points. 40 people are at the raid. That means 400 BOT points are given out. Since in our system in=out, these points need to come back somehow. They come back by taking some points from EVERYONE in the guild. Assuming there are 80 people in the guild, everyone in the guild would lose 5 points. This may sound like a pointless thing to give out points then just take them back, but assume you are 100 points behind the next person up, you go to the raid and recieve BOT points and they don't. You gain 10 points, then lose 5, and they also lose 5. You STILL got 10 points closer to them. Our point system is all relative. Everyone could lose or gain 1000 points, and it would make no difference as long as it effected everyone. The amount of points you actually have does not matter. How many points you have related to how many points other people have is what matters.

There are also 3 attendance ranks which can effect who gets loot.

ACTIVE

This is the standard category, and what everyone should be. You are Active if you have atleast 60% attendance over the previous 15 days. No adjustment is made to your points when considering loot.

NA

This is the first category lower than Active. You are NA if you have 40%-59% raid attendance the previous 15 days. When you bid on an item, 1500 will be subtracted from your actual point count when comparing to other bidders.

EXAMPLE

Jim has 300 points and is Active, George has 1200 points and is NA. They both bid on an item. Even though George has 900 more points than Jim, Jim gets the item because George is NA

ZP (Zombie Player)

This is the lowest attendance category, and if you fall into this and havn't posted something you're in trouble. You are ZP if you have 0%-39% raid attendance for the previous 15 days. When bidding, you will not even be considered if any people who aren't ZP bid. While ZP, you will essentially get no loot unless it would be rotting.

EXAMPLE

Bob has -5000000000000 points (this would never happen, i'm just making a point) and is Active, and Sue has 50000000000000000 points and is ZP. They both bid on an item, Bob gets it because Sue is ZP.

I like the, "Holy fucking shit, this is a single player game and that shiny pointy thing is the piz-own! *equip*" system.

I'm pretty tired of MMOGs, but if I must play one, then DKP is nice.

Leonaerd wrote:Wow... I can't believe how many people favor NBG / nazi loot / officer loot. It's a birth canal for corruption.

Don't join a guild headed up by greedy fuckheads.

Voronwë wrote:i am a big fan of twinking the cybersluts first

Elex must have been cybering himself!

don't get me started on officer-loot...

the above quoted system sounds awesome.

Officer's choice... oh yeah, that's the one where the officers log on one of the chicks that they wish they had a snowballs-chance-in-hell of shagging and take loot despite not even being in attendance at the raid in question.

DKP + the Main Tank(s) need first choice on the plate in EQ.

OtB had an offshoot system that worked rather nicey

Don't join a guild headed up by greedy fuckheads.

If only it was that easy.

That's like.... every guild I was ever in!

As someone who has always run officer loot, I know full well its far more susceptible to personal bias (and therefor greed). But if you think that DKP systems are any less susceptible to corruption, greed, and favoritism, your pretty naive. Also, these days, too many people know how to fuck the points no matter how hard you try, unless the officers are stepping in to correct problems. And if thats happening, then why have DKP in the first place?

Jice Virago wrote:As someone who has always run officer loot, I know full well its far more susceptible to personal bias (and therefor greed). But if you think that DKP systems are any less susceptible to corruption, greed, and favoritism, your pretty naive. Also, these days, too many people know how to fuck the points no matter how hard you try, unless the officers are stepping in to correct problems. And if thats happening, then why have DKP in the first place?

The trouble with officer loot is it's run purely by perception of worth, and while DKP numbers are prone to some inflation with dual boxers pretending to be the real deal, it's not nearly as inaccurate as individual perception.

You also get into rediculous cock-jousting about "well, you don't really need the extra 2 str from the Cock-blocking boots of Umberness, where as Johnny Rag-Shirt over there dies from a single dragon AOE" but we'll overlook the fact that Johnny is being dragged by the rest of the guild, in fact, we'll reward that so he doesn't have to be dragged as much, and the moment he's got a full set of gear he'll get bored/pissed-off/drunk/what-have-you and leave the guild w/ his fat loots.

DKP is about "what have you done for me lately?"

Officer loot is about "how can I keep my circle of old friends interested in this game?"

DKP, in my experience, has been the fairest and the most non-arguable.

My favorite, however is loot given out based on longevity in the guild (whether you play or not).

I like the system where you bend over and get fucked in the ass...

well theres no other choice really.

DKP is the only way to go IMO. As a player, I can save and get what I want when I want. If I lose out on an item, there is no dissappointment what-so-ever.

Also, if someone is abusing the DKP system, it's extremely easy to track and point it out to have the problem addressed.

Officer loot is a fucking biased joke in every guild I've ever been in, but it did keep the drama flowing which is kinda fun I guess

Officer Loot is the best. You always have the ability to put the gear on the people who actually need it the most.

DKP is useless unless your whole raiding force is the same people everytime on every raid. When does that ever happen? Otherwise the no-lifes always have the power to take items that could be better used on other players to make the whole guild stronger.

Ask Eudas how good officer loot system is... ask any tank of old CT. I think the officers of CT geared up half of Veeshan at one point or another.

WTF is closed and straight DKP? In either case, I think both ways can get fucked. In DKP prices can be retardedly implemented as well as retros which usually screw up rankings anyway. Officer loot can also end up as who can virtually sick my duck more/better and at a much lower price? I also didn't really like the whoever has been in the guild longer, because if that were in place, I could log in and take loot over about 80% of the Guild's members. It'd also be like somebody whoring up a fuckton of DKP, looting whoring for a week and Ebaying. I dunno, guess it just depends on the people though.

Xanupox wrote:Officer Loot is the best. You always have the ability to put the gear on the people who actually need it the most.

DKP is useless unless your whole raiding force is the same people everytime on every raid. When does that ever happen? Otherwise the no-lifes always have the power to take items that could be better used on other players to make the whole guild stronger.

Ask Eudas how good officer loot system is... ask any tank of old CT. I think the officers of CT geared up half of Veeshan at one point or another.

I chose Officer Loot mainly because I don't know what the hell DKP stands for.

I am not sure if include Eudas as a source is sarcasm or not.

with good officers, Officer Loot is a very workable system. However, from my experience in both as well as having awarded my fair share of loots, I think that DKP works very well, and is by FAR the better system. but yeah i dont know what "Straight" v. "Closed" DKP means, nor do i care

I can't even imagine having officer loot on a fucking time raid. that would add an hour to the damn raid right there. If you set up your DKP system well, and its automated, you take tells on loots for a couple of mins, then the loot is distributed.

The notion that "non-contributors" suck up loot disproportionate to the hard core contributors is not true if you have your system set up properly. I know that of the rangers in Sovereign, Andry was our most active player (probably 2nd or 3rd most active player in the guild), and he was also the best equipped.

Those with spotty attendance (like myself), still got a fair amount of loot as well, but we were super DKP negative. We cleaned up on Time loots that the hard core players would not equip. Taht also kept us at a DKP balance so we couldn't come in and snag a Quarm loot that somebody like Andry (above) was saving up for.

The system we had was extremely equitable from my experience. It wasn't perfect, but there was a lot of loot going to a lot of poeple.

The bottom line with an EQ raiding guild is you have to generate a lot of loot for your players, so that whatever system you have will have some of its flaws "glossed over" by the loot volume.

If quality loot is rare (like it was often in OG - referenced above, hehe), any inequities in the system become even more glaring.

The Legion/Ixtlan --> Sovereign loot system worked well. Combined with the DKP, you had 30 day raid attendance percentage that had to be met (that way people with high DKP that hadn't played in a few months couldn't log on and grab a high end item. Adding the rolling raid attendance requirement was important IMO to keep the active players equipped.

The website that tracked DKP and loots in Sovereign was more complex than some corporate databases. There were several people with negative DKP simply because noone wanted loot drops. I think all of the Beastlords had negative DKP.

when i retired, i had -5000 DKP. "rot" hated me, i ganked many loots from him!

You also have to seperate the real loot from the "fuck that's a nice piece of equipment for a trash drop" in zones like Time, if for no other reason than to stop mentally retarded wizards from hoarding their DKP until the first silk chest drops from Quarm, meanwhile being constantly dead from lack of HP/resists that they should have if they took the trash drops in stage 1-3.

Xanupox wrote:Officer Loot is the best. You always have the ability to put the gear on the people who actually need it the most.

DKP is useless unless your whole raiding force is the same people everytime on every raid. When does that ever happen? Otherwise the no-lifes always have the power to take items that could be better used on other players to make the whole guild stronger.

Ask Eudas how good officer loot system is... ask any tank of old CT. I think the officers of CT geared up half of Veeshan at one point or another.

and OG geared them up with cleric epics lol

Jice Virago wrote:As someone who has always run officer loot, I know full well its far more susceptible to personal bias (and therefor greed). But if you think that DKP systems are any less susceptible to corruption, greed, and favoritism, your pretty naive. Also, these days, too many people know how to fuck the points no matter how hard you try, unless the officers are stepping in to correct problems. And if thats happening, then why have DKP in the first place?

I'm curious to know what greed, corruption and favoritism you think DKP is equally susceptible to? Its all on paper (so-to-speak) and out in the open. Its pretty hard to rig it when everyones income, spending and current rankings are there for all to see... Only issues are reserving certain specific disproportionately valuable loots to the proper classes for a while and thats it really. Forinstance Ixtlan/Legion had Fennin daggers restricted to rogues only to start with, but that was one of only maybe three items that were ever restricted I think. So where is the corruption?

Xanupox wrote:Officer Loot is the best. You always have the ability to put the gear on the people who actually need it the most.

DKP is useless unless your whole raiding force is the same people everytime on every raid. When does that ever happen? Otherwise the no-lifes always have the power to take items that could be better used on other players to make the whole guild stronger.

Gearing the people who need it most- Yes, I've heard that. And lived it. And what it means in practice is that youre always gearing the newbies to the guild, the part-timers, and the lazy, over your core raiders. You're gearing people whose loyalties or drive is not yet certain and have higher odds of quitting or guild-hopping soon, and then that gear is lost to the guild and you're weaker, not stronger. You're gearing people who only play part-time, so you only get the benefit of that gear to advance the guild part of the time. You're gearing people who are too lazy to get upgrades on their own outside of raids, rewarding them for their sloth. And all of these deprive your core raiders of their just rewards, which builds resentment and low morale. And that will certainly damage your guild. Yes, gearing the needy sounds good on paper, but its long-term effect is corrosive and weakening.

DKP means that you get what you earn. You play lots, you earn lots. You play half-time, you earn half. You're a newbie, you start off with substandard gear, but you earn dkp same as anyone else, according to your playtime. And the thing about that is that having crap gear everything is an improvement and a lot of the lower-end stuff is cheap and uncontested so you can bulk up fast on cheap stuff, fixing the crap gear issue fast so youre not a liability in combat. Time is the prime example of that- When we were clearing time, after a while everyone had the phase 1 and 2 gear they wanted and most of the phase 3 stuff. When we had a new member with us they could eat their fill of phase 1-3 gear quickly, low dkp or no, and rapidly catch up to everyone else, while the older members jockeyed for phase 5 and 6 gear. We had a cleric transfer naked from another server when we were doing Time. I was well dressed and was being choosy about my upgrades. She just sucked up everything she could find during Time to get her slots filled. And it was not long at all before I looked over my shoulder to see her sitting just a few hp and mana below me and with nearly the same dkp total left to spend. I got my gear and strengthened the guild, and the unequipped cleric got her gear and strengthened the guild. Everybody won. As it should be.

Yes, the no-lifes have the power to take specific items when they would be a bigger upgrade to a lesser-geared person. But you forget why that lesser geared person is lesser-geared in the first place. And youre forgetting the contribution of the no-life people to the guild. Theyre what make the guild uber enough to get the toys in the first place. And youre also forgetting that its not like its something they can keep doing. If they have 8000 dkp to the newbies 500, sure, they can take that item over the newbie. And then they only have 5000 dkp. And after the next time they only have 2000 dkp left. And after the next time, look, suddenly the newbie has more dkp. It corrects itself quickly. And of course all that dkp that the older members may have didnt just spring from nowhere. It was ALL EARNED, through hours of raiding to strengthen the guild. Why on earth wouldnt someone who has contributed more get the reward if he wishes it? Your employer puts up a new car as a reward for one person on an upcoming project. You work 10 hour days for the next 2 months on the project. 7 weeks into the project they hire one more person, who works on the project for its last week. Then they give the car to the new guy, because they dont have a car and you have a 10 year old beater, totally ignoring the fact that youve been there longer, and contributed more to the project. Hands up those of you who wouldnt think that was bullshit?

No, DKP is the way to go, everyone winds up with their due share, according to what they contribute, and the guild gets stronger, and nobody is pissed off. And the neatest trick is that with the way DKP works in practice is that the lesser equipped players always gain strength faster than the better equipped players due to the prices of lower quality gear vs their effect, which means that the new people are not permanently behind. For example- You could buy 3 phase 1-3 loots or 2 phase 4 loots for the price of 1 quarm loot in our system, and those loots between them will be a bigger upgrade for the lowbie than the 1 quarm loot, in most cases. Heck, in some cases each of those loots is a bigger upgrade for the lowbie by itself than the quarm loot is for the senior members. Thats how our transfer cleric caught up with me- I'd get a 60hp and mana upgrade for my quarm item, she'd get 60-70hp and mana more from each of the 2-3 items she'd buy with the same dkp. If she'd spent that dkp on the quarm item instead she'd only have gotten 130-150hp and mana, rather than the 180-210 hp from bottom feeding.

Anyways, thats enough scribbling for now. I'm sure I could tidy and tighten all that up some but I dont wanna spend the time, so suffah!

*Hugs*
Varia

For: all the fanbois of DKP inside of MMORPGS...

Dragon Kill Points aka DKP, rewards those that sacrafice everything in order to achieve the 'favored status' amongst their guild leadership.

DKP leadership wants you (the player) to be online 24/7 if they could manage it, their concern is not sensible playtime/raidtime, but rather when its convienient for them (the leaders) to kill stuff. Since thier system is DKP, they know that thier followers will come, regardless of time of day or night because those DKP points are up for grabs. Worker Bees MUST gather DKP at all cost or else risk dropping in favored status. (labled as NON-HARDCORE)

When you logon to your favorite MMORPG for the 6-8 hours a day, 7days a week, then you will naturally be online for the 'raids" and thus accumulate your DK Points basically ...by default. Did you get them because you healed the best, had the best mana spent / damage dealt ratio, killed the most enemy NPCs without draining the healers mana? Umm, no. You got those points because your ass was sitting in front of the screen, while intently waiting for the next sequence of barking orders to come down from the "queen bee". DKP+1

"True Uber Hardcore" TUH is a collection of players that are not ranked or judged by time played or raid attendance, but rather thier skills displayed during the time that they are actually online and being productive for the team/guild. Using for example an undefeated Battlefield team on a ladder of 200 other teams looking to knock you off, yet overcoming the odds of losing week in and out. A group of 15 skilled guys that at best compared to the DKP-MMORPG structure would be labled as "casual online players" 1-2 hours a day. Yet in the same gaming community of Battlefield / FPS shooters, they would be the "Uber of the Uber" simply because they worked as a team to achieve victory. DKP does NOT breed teamwork, it breeds frothing greed to "outdo" your fellow guildmates, trust is never earned in a DKP guild.

Anyway, you talk about hardcore/core-of-the-guild/non-guild hoppers... but what defines hardcore in an MMORPG? Online daily for obscene amounts of time? Yep that sounds right, because if you are on any less than that guess what... someone else is gonna be on more than you and you will be classified as "NON-CORE" "Softcore" whatever... you will not get the DKP you NEED, you will not get the loot that you will need to do you "job/role" to the best of your ability, thus your guild suffers, you suffer. You get less opportunity... NOT because you were not online enough, but simply because some other no-life was online MORE...

DKP rewards time, not skill.

MMORPG DKP Uber Guilds = 1-3 Skilled Players that have dozens of mindless "worker bees" at their disposal to be able to issue halt/go orders to get things done. Its a game of ONE thinking for the MANY. The only thing it takes to be successful in an MMORPG is a command structure that is competant and a large group of listeners. That's all. So as long as the DKP lovers sit in front of thier computers for 6-8 hours a day, hitting every possible raid, following the orders of the command structure on how to exactly play... oh wait.. play thier class? or role? Wait... they are not actually playing thier class. They are following a script that the leader laid out for the battle.... back to the drone factory with the bee.

OLS Guilds and FPS Shooters Clans on the other hand require each member of the team to be of the calibur of the entire MMO DKP guilds leader structure. You have to know all the roles of all players on the team incase you need to adapt and overcome. ... I could go on an on about it, but you get the gist. I know this wont go over well here since so many still play MMO's but thats just the truth, like it or not.

The end point is that DKP in an MMO game is a flawed concept that breeds contempt, and makes good people hate each other that in any other situation they would not. DKP breeds laziness, obeisity, social ineptitude for the single reward of digital pixels and the inner warm fuzzy for the player that in some fantasy realm they are "l33t' cuz they sit in front of thier computer 8 hours a day, meticulously following the pre-designed gameplan of another human being, or more likely the gameplan of some other smarter guy who wrote a FAQ that your "leader" is now barking off as his own genious ideas.


Concluding with a final comment on the Officer Loot system: It is much better, simply because the leaders of the guild can identify as a collective and unified group the most deserving member that not only need the items the most, but are TRUELY the most deserving "OVERALL" for the item to be awarded. Its just not about coming to raids, its about being flexible, sincere, friendly toward guildmates, supportive etc., Many good players get kicked to the curb because they cannot put the time in on a daily basis to rack up the "raid points". If you wanted an item, and it was awarded to a fellow guildmate but you were not "happy" for them, instead you sulked inside and thought of a dozens reasons why "YOU" deserved it more, then you would probably fit in with a DKP guild. Otherwise you saw past the greed and the reason for need, then you have ascended in the realm of online gaming.

In todays 2nd generation MMOs the guild size is much smaller compared to the original EQ genre games. The ability to gather a central core of skilled players without having to sacrafice competantcy for sheer numbers is much more achieveable with just a little effort on the part of the leadership of the guild. When you get a group of "skilled players" together under one banner, the need for DKP ends.

1) DKP was made as a tool to shut up the whiners and greedy players inside guilds that were NOT composed of skilled players or friends. It breaks down the bonds of guilds and works against cohesion, two of many critical factors needed to sustain a guild and keep the group going into the future of thier game of choice.

2) DKP is for groups of selfish and less skilled players, as this sytem makes them happy since the chance for loot increases for the player based on a single statistic. .TIME. There are 24 hours in a day last I checked, how much of that is sitting on the CLOCK earning your DKP.?!?!?

Officer Loot System is more for a group that can accept and understand reason. It's for the group of players that are individually competant on how the inner workings of the whole guild function but as a group work seemlessly and flawlessly with no noticable effort displayed on thier part. Once a group that can achieve this state without the commonly seen "drama" then it is the true "State of True Uber".

Are you a member of STU or DKP GIMP? Only you really know.

I completely agree with Xanupox.

DKP favors the individual while officer loot favors the guild as a whole. In my opinion, a guild is greater than the sum of its members. The main weakness of the officer loot system is that it is susceptible to corruption, but if there is corruption in the leadership the guild has bigger problems than which fucking loot system they use (see: Obsidian Guard). However, if the officers are competent and understand the guild progression concept (one which far too many people including some of you retards reading this fail to understand) the guild as a whole is far far better off in the long run by having its officers make loot decisions.


DKP reeks of greed and selfishness. Its proponents care more about themselves than their teammates. They do not understand that the success of the guild is the first and foremost priority in the game. They want to log on and accumulate "wealth" so that they are able to spend it the way they want, often passing up minor upgrades in order to save up for that one badass item that truely belongs in someone else's hands. They contribute less on the process of learning, adapting, and defeating new and difficult encounters and yet they seem to always be around more when the shit is on pharm status. Even if 5 or 10% of the guild behaves in this manner it is completely unacceptable, and the beauty of the officer system is that greedy imbeciles like this always end up jumping ship.


DKP guilds are similar to corporations in that their objective is wealth. Their members band together simply because they realize that they could not succeed without eachother. They do their "job" in the hopes of being rewarded by virtual fucking pixels that give them the feeling of uberness. OLS guilds on the other hand are like football teams or military organizations. Their members' first priority is success. They realize that true glory, true uberness is not represented by the gear you wear but by the encounters you defeated.


DKP is a system for mediocre guilds, OLS is one for uberguilds, those that simply want to be the best.


Does attendance matter and should it be rewarded? Of course. It is the duty of the officers to track not just attendance, but helpfulness and competence of their members and reward them accordingly and make this process as fair and transparent as possible.


Ixtlan is the epitome of an uberguild. Currently in WoW, we are the first horde guild and third guild on Whisperwind to clear Molten Core in-house. Fuck yes I'm bragging because I'm fucking proud of my guild, of what we've been through and what we've accomplished even though my personal gear is pure shit. The guild tag itself is what commands respect and/or envy from the gaming community.


Here is a linkto our raid tracking page. The officers use this as a utility to help make loot decisions. The discrepancies are Boxer who I think is passing up raid gear b/c he has his heart set on pvp gear and Brahman who is our designated MT. Our loot system not only works but provides an environment where we can thrive and flourish as a guild and therefore as individuals.

If the guild is small, I think the Officer loot system works well enough. When there are only 15-20 people in the guild, it doesn't take much to remember who was on which raid, and who got what. And, determining what would benefit the guild most is also easier since, with such a small group of people, you can get to know each member. The larger the guild gets, though, it becomes more and more difficult to keep track of those details. Before Legion/Ixtlan moved to the DKP system, for example, some of the quieter members would sometimes be overlooked. Also, awarding items sometimes took a long time because of debate in the officer channel. The DKP system helps the guild leadership get a handle on all that.

OLS Guilds and FPS Shooters Clans on the other hand require each member of the team to be of the calibur of the entire MMO DKP guilds leader structure. You have to know all the roles of all players on the team incase you need to adapt and overcome

Character development in most MMORPGs is done through equipment upgrades. The DKP system is an attempt to handle loot distribution as fairly as possible. Since most FPS games are not RPGs, and loot is not really an issue, DKP doesn't apply.

DKP breeds laziness, obeisity, social ineptitude for the single reward of digital pixels and the inner warm fuzzy for the player that in some fantasy realm they are "l33t' cuz they sit in front of thier computer 8 hours a day

Those traits are not the fault of a DKP sytem, but from the way MMORPGs are designed and played. The DKP system most likely arose because a large organization of "hardcore" players needed a more-or-less fair way to distribute loot.

If the guild is small, I think the Officer loot system works well enough. When there are only 15-20 people in the guild, it doesn't take much to remember who was on which raid, and who got what. And, determining what would benefit the guild most is also easier since, with such a small group of people, you can get to know each member. The larger the guild gets, though, it becomes more and more difficult to keep track of those details.

This is not true. Keeping track of the details takes much less effort than installing a full DKP system regardless of the size of the guild.

Those traits are not the fault of a DKP sytem, but from the way MMORPGs are designed and played.

This is horseshit. MMORPGs are designed so that a group of people have to work together to accomplish goals. How those people (guilds) handle loot awards has nothing to do with game design. It is a completely voluntary issue. The traits listed happen to be more prevalent in DKP guilds.

Xanupox wrote: DKP leadership wants you (the player) to be online 24/7 if they could manage it, their concern is not sensible playtime/raidtime, but rather when its convienient for them (the leaders) to kill stuff. Since thier system is DKP, they know that thier followers will come, regardless of time of day or night because those DKP points are up for grabs. Worker Bees MUST gather DKP at all cost or else risk dropping in favored status. (labled as NON-HARDCORE)

Are you talking about tackling the latest content, or making your first run at Ssra now? If you're talking about the later, then yeah, who gives a damn who gets the loot? It's only a few stats here and there different from the stuff you can buy cheap in the bazaar.

Who is (was?) the Officer Loot guild that can (could?) compete at the coal face?

Skills don't mean anything if you're not in attendance (unless you're talking about l33t inf0z about old/beaten content; there's no substitute for good intel). Oh, and it's really convenient to kill mobs when they're up; loot gained from mobs another guild has already killed is hard to come by.

Varia said it better than I could hope to; I wish she had more time to make it a little shorter though

Xyun wrote:DKP is a system for mediocre guilds, OLS is one for uberguilds, those that simply want to be the best.

I'd be curious to see how many of the top EQ 'uberguilds' are using OLS to distribute loot. I'm going to go out on a limb and say zero.


(Ok maybe one just because I know someone will find one. Either way I'm fairly certain it would be a very small percentage.)

Yes because if the majority says it's true, then it must be.

Xyun wrote:Yes because if the majority says it's true, then it must be.

No, it's because it just works better. You're the one who said DKP was a sign of mediocre guilds. I'm asking you to back that up since the vast majority of succesful "mediocre guilds" in EQ use the DKP system.

Xyun wrote:

If the guild is small, I think the Officer loot system works well enough. When there are only 15-20 people in the guild, it doesn't take much to remember who was on which raid, and who got what. And, determining what would benefit the guild most is also easier since, with such a small group of people, you can get to know each member. The larger the guild gets, though, it becomes more and more difficult to keep track of those details.

This is not true. Keeping track of the details takes much less effort than installing a full DKP system regardless of the size of the guild.

a) The loot tracking system you linked is every bit as complex as any DKP system I've seen, just doesn't show any numbers.

b) I clicked on at least 20 players and, apart from 1 or 2 outliers, the loot distribution is directly proportional to raid attendance.

c) This looks a lot more like DKP w/ office discretion than "OLS" to me.

I backed up my argument by using my guild as an example. Sorry I don't play EQ anymore nor do I care about the vast majority of MMORPG guilds. My argument is officer loot not only works but is better and I gave the only example I need to. Now if you have issues with any part of my argument bring them up specifically and I'll address them, otherwise you are trolling.

a) The loot tracking system you linked is every bit as complex as any DKP system I've seen, just doesn't show any numbers.

b) I clicked on at least 20 players and, apart from 1 or 2 outliers, the loot distribution is directly proportional to raid attendance.

c) This looks a lot more like DKP w/ office discretion than "OLS" to me.

This is exactly my point. Maybe your viewpoint is skewed because you've never seen OLS work properly?

Ok, so now you're basing your entire argument on the guild you happen to be in? That's not a very good argument. And labeling me as a troll doesn't change anything. I'm not saying officer distributed loot can't work. I'm simply saying that the way you distribute loot is a very poor indicator on guild quality. You're labeling all DKP guilds as mediocre based on nothing but opinion when they're plenty of examples out there proving you wrong.

Xyun wrote:This is not true. Keeping track of the details takes much less effort than installing a full DKP system regardless of the size of the guild.

Only keeping track of who got what may be easier. But, when it comes to deciding who should get what, and taking into consideration the quality of the loot drop and the history of all 40+ members of a raid, and keeping in mind that the loot distribution must be done within only a few minutes, then it's not so easy.

Xyun wrote:

Those traits are not the fault of a DKP sytem, but from the way MMORPGs are designed and played.

This is horseshit. MMORPGs are designed so that a group of people have to work together to accomplish goals. How those people (guilds) handle loot awards has nothing to do with game design. It is a completely voluntary issue. The traits listed happen to be more prevalent in DKP guilds.

Most MMORPGs are designed so that character progression is done through loot. The acquisition of that loot usually requires a lot of time. The traits that Xanupox mentioned ("laziness, obeisity, social ineptitude for the single reward of digital pixels") are a result of time spent to acquire that loot. The DKP system is not at fault for that want.

Xyun wrote:

a) The loot tracking system you linked is every bit as complex as any DKP system I've seen, just doesn't show any numbers.

b) I clicked on at least 20 players and, apart from 1 or 2 outliers, the loot distribution is directly proportional to raid attendance.

c) This looks a lot more like DKP w/ office discretion than "OLS" to me.

This is exactly my point. Maybe your viewpoint is skewed because you've never seen OLS work properly?

Your point is that your OLS system is a DKP system in all but name? Come again?

Most MMORPGs are designed so that character progression is done through loot. The acquisition of that loot usually requires a lot of time. The traits that Xanupox mentioned ("laziness, obeisity, social ineptitude for the single reward of digital pixels") are a result of time spent to acquire that loot. The DKP system is not at fault for that want.

I didn't say DKP resulted in those traits. Those are human traits. They are simply more prevalent in DKP guilds.

Character progression is done through loot. Loot is done through content. Content is done through the guild, which entails that character progression is done through the guild.

Ok, so now you're basing your entire argument on the guild you happen to be in? That's not a very good argument. And labeling me as a troll doesn't change anything. I'm not saying officer distributed loot can't work. I'm simply saying that the way you distribute loot is a very poor indicator on guild quality. You're labeling all DKP guilds as mediocre based on nothing but opinion when they're plenty of examples out there proving you wrong.

oops i missed this one. My argument is not that DKP doesn't work. My argument is that OLS is better for guild progression. The loot system a guild uses in a way represents their attitude and purpose. Also, while I am basing my argument on the guild I happen to be in and created, I have been in a DKP guild and have the experience to see the virtues and vices of both systems. If you want numbers to back up my claims look at the results of this poll.

Xyun wrote:If you want numbers to back up my claims look at the results of this poll.

How do the results of this poll in any way validate your assertion that DKP is a sign of mediocre guilds? There is no relevance between the two.

Officer decision based on officer-viewable-only DKP or raid tracking system (for an accurate reference).

Aslanna wrote:

Xyun wrote:If you want numbers to back up my claims look at the results of this poll.

How do the results of this poll in any way validate your assertion that DKP is a sign of mediocre guilds? There is no relevance between the two.

They don't. I was merely refuting your statement that the "vast majority of uberguilds" prefer DKP.

Xyun wrote:

Aslanna wrote:

Xyun wrote:If you want numbers to back up my claims look at the results of this poll.

How do the results of this poll in any way validate your assertion that DKP is a sign of mediocre guilds? There is no relevance between the two.

They don't. I was merely refuting your statement that the "vast majority of uberguilds" prefer DKP.

My statement was actually "the vast majority of succesful "mediocre guilds" in EQ use the DKP system" and that is a true statement. This poll refutes nothing of the sort.

And besides which we have no idea what guilds the people who voted happen to be in.

Xyun wrote:

Most MMORPGs are designed so that character progression is done through loot. The acquisition of that loot usually requires a lot of time. The traits that Xanupox mentioned ("laziness, obeisity, social ineptitude for the single reward of digital pixels") are a result of time spent to acquire that loot. The DKP system is not at fault for that want.

I didn't say DKP resulted in those traits. Those are human traits. They are simply more prevalent in DKP guilds.

Character progression is done through loot. Loot is done through content. Content is done through the guild, which entails that character progression is done through the guild.

I disputed Xanupox's statement saying as much, and you disputed mine. As far as your assertion that those traits are more prevalent in DKP guilds, it's as unsubstantiated as a statement saying corruption is more prevalent in OLS guilds. DKP and OLS are simply loot distribution systems. They certainly have an impact on the success of a guild, but it's only one of a few factors. There are very many successful DKP guilds -- of which Afterlife (both in EQ and WoW) is notable -- as I'm sure there are successful OLS guilds.

Lisandre wrote:

Xyun wrote:

Most MMORPGs are designed so that character progression is done through loot. The acquisition of that loot usually requires a lot of time. The traits that Xanupox mentioned ("laziness, obeisity, social ineptitude for the single reward of digital pixels") are a result of time spent to acquire that loot. The DKP system is not at fault for that want.

I didn't say DKP resulted in those traits. Those are human traits. They are simply more prevalent in DKP guilds.

Character progression is done through loot. Loot is done through content. Content is done through the guild, which entails that character progression is done through the guild.

I disputed Xanupox's statement saying as much, and you disputed mine. As far as your assertion that those traits are more prevalent in DKP guilds, it's as unsubstantiated as a statement saying corruption is more prevalent in OLS guilds. DKP and OLS are simply loot distribution systems. They certainly have an impact on the success of a guild, but it's only one of a few factors. There are very many successful DKP guilds -- of which Afterlife (both in EQ and WoW) is notable -- as I'm sure there are successful OLS guilds.

I understand that many uberguilds use DKP and many mediocre guilds use OLS. I am not disputing this. My argument is simply about which system IS better, SHOULD be used, and why.

My argument is that if you prefer DKP you display:

1) A lack of trust in your leadership and your guildmates.
2) A lack of percipience of the concept of "guild"
3) Greed, or support for an environment that promotes it.
4) A belief that contribution demands reward and not vice-versa.
5) Individual rather than team mentality.

So when I say DKP is for mediocre guilds and OLS is for uberguilds, I mean it conceptually. It is the mentality and intentions of the DKP proponent (guild) that I'm concerned with. Hope that clears it up.

Xyun wrote: I understand that many uberguilds use DKP and many mediocre guilds use OLS. I am not disputing this. My argument is simply about which system IS better, SHOULD be used, and why.

My argument is that if you prefer DKP you display:

1) A lack of trust in your leadership and your guildmates.
2) A lack of percipience of the concept of "guild"
3) Greed, or support for an environment that promotes it.
4) A belief that contribution demands reward and not vice-versa.
5) Individual rather than team mentality.

So when I say DKP is for mediocre guilds and OLS is for uberguilds, I mean it conceptually. It is the mentality and intentions of the DKP proponent (guild) that I'm concerned with. Hope that clears it up.

It can also be seen in this way:

1. When guild leadership moves toward a DKP system, it is an abandonment of arrogance, and an acknowledgment that they are not omniscient.
2. DKP displays a trust in guild members to know when to yield to others for the good of the guild.
3. DKP promotes the concept of fairness.

It's just a matter of perception.