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Barry Next?

Posted: December 2, 2004, 12:07 pm
by Tyek
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - New York Yankees slugger Jason Giambi injected himself with human growth hormone in 2003 and also used steroids for at least three seasons, according to his grand jury testimony reviewed by the San Francisco Chronicle.
The testimony given in December 2003 to the federal grand jury investigating BALCO contradicts Giambi's public proclamations that he never used performance-enhancing drugs.

Giambi described how he injected human growth hormone in his stomach, testosterone into his buttocks, rubbed an undetectable steroid knows as "the cream" on his body and placed drops of another, called "the clear," under his tongue, the Chronicle reported on its Web site Wednesday night

Giambi testified that he obtained several different steroids from Barry Bonds' personal trainer, Greg Anderson, who is one of four men indicted by the grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative. He said he got the human growth hormone from a gym in Las Vegas.

Anderson's attorney, Tony Serra, declined comment to the Chronicle, citing a court order.


Anderson, BALCO founder Victor Conte, vice president James Valente and track coach Remi Korchemny all have pleaded not guilty to the charges, which include steroid distribution.

On Wednesday, a federal judge said she would not immediately dismiss the charges in response to accusations that prosecutors illegally searched BALCO headquarters and Anderson's house and car. U.S. District Judge Susan Illston said she may conduct hearings into the matter in January.

Giambi was among dozens of elite athletes - including Bonds, Gary Sheffield and track stars Tim Montgomery and Marion Jones - who answered the grand jury's questions last year. Bonds, Jones and Montgomery deny using illegal drugs, but Sheffield told Sports Illustrated and ESPN earlier this year that he used "the cream" and "the clear" from BALCO, which he said unknowingly to him contained illegal steroids.

The Chronicle reported in October that on a 9-minute recording it had obtained, a speaker the paper identified as Anderson is heard saying Bonds used an "undetectable" performance-enhancing drug during the 2003 season.

Giambi met Anderson when the trainer joined Bonds on an All-Star tour in Japan in November 2002. Giambi said he wanted to know what Bonds' secret for success was.

"So I started to ask him: 'Hey, what are the things you're doing with Barry? He's an incredible player. I want to still be able to work out at that age and keep playing,"' Giambi testified, according to the Chronicle. "And that's how the conversation first started."

After returning to the United States, Anderson told Giambi he could provide him with performance-enhancing drugs and suggested he stop taking the steroid Deca Durabolin that he obtained from the Las Vegas gym because it stays in the system too long, the paper reported. Giambi said he started using Deca Durabolin in 2001.

Giambi said Anderson never told him that Bonds used performance-enhancing drugs.

"You know, I assumed because he's Barry's trainer - you know, Barry - but he never said one time, 'This is what Barry's taking, this is what Barry's doing,"' Giambi testified. "He never gave up another name that he was dealing with or doing anything with."

Prosecutors confronted Giambi with a calendar seized from Anderson's home that detailed Giambi's schedule of drug use.

Giambi said he didn't notice a "huge difference" in his performance after starting to use illegal drugs.

Giambi came to spring training this year looking noticeably trimmer as baseball began a steroid-testing program that included punishments for the first time. Asked in February whether he had ever taken performance-enhancing drugs, Giambi said: "Are you talking about steroids? No."

Giambi won the AL MVP in 2000 for Oakland and signed a $120 million, seven-year free-agent contract with the Yankees after the 2001 season. He hit 155 homers from 1999-2002 and batted over .300 each season, but injuries slowed him down the last two years.

Bothered by a balky knee, Giambi hit just .250 in 2003. Giambi batted .208 and played in only 80 games last season, missing time because of a tumor, which the New York Daily News reported was in his pituitary gland. Medical experts told the Chronicle that Clomid, a drug Giambi said he thought Anderson had given him, can exacerbate a tumor of the pituitary gland.

Giambi's younger brother, Jeremy, who last played in the majors with Boston in 2003, also testified that he used performance-enhancing drugs given to him by Anderson, according to the Chronicle.
I wonder how much longer Barry will stick to the "I did not take steroids" story. It sounds like every other person they dealt with has admitted to knowingly, or in Sheffield's case unknowingly taken drugs.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 1:03 pm
by noel
I think Barry's, "Can't I just be good?" and, "If I were white, this wouldn't be an issue." are VERY entertaining.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 1:08 pm
by Voronwë
Bonds is a terrific player, but what he has done is more of a threat to the integrity of baseball than what Pete Rose did. They deserve the same punishment in my opinion.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 1:18 pm
by Winnow
Voronwë wrote:Bonds is a terrific player, but what he has done is more of a threat to the integrity of baseball than what Pete Rose did. They deserve the same punishment in my opinion.
I say give Barry his baseball cap from his rookie season and see if it fits his head. It the hat doesn't fit, he's out!

Posted: December 2, 2004, 1:49 pm
by masteen
I think that if Bonds is found to have juiced during last season, his records should erased.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 2:18 pm
by Kilmoll the Sexy
They should ban Giambi and Bonds for life. Sheffield should be placed on whatever baseball has as a probation.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 2:42 pm
by Homercles
they should be banned but they wont. Baseball doesnt have a drug policy which would enalbe them to ban these players. Hell, Strawberry was a recurring coke head and he continued to play baseball. Same goes for Howe. As long as the Players Union is in charge nothing substantial will ever been done concerning a drug policy.

The Players Union will eventually be the demise of Major League Baseball

Posted: December 2, 2004, 3:50 pm
by Sylvus
Darryl Strawberry is a different case. Steroids are cheating, I don't think coke helps your performance all that much. Personally, I don't think that athletes should even be tested for drugs that aren't performance-enhancing.

Taking that even further, I'd like to encourage all athletes to take steroids, cork their bats, etc, as it makes the game more exciting. Who wants to watch boring-ass 1995 MLB baseball? It's more fun when McGwire and Sosa are both cheaters and hitting 70 home runs in a season.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 4:43 pm
by Kilmoll the Sexy
I would much rather watch a pitcher dominate hitters than see some roided up cheater mash homers and set records. They suspend pitchers for using performance enhancing items such as nail files, vaseline, etc.....why not the hitters for using illegal substances?

They should just make it legal for pitchers to modify the ball with sandpaper or substances to even things out. Give me Greg Maddux in the mid-90's to watch play over any of these asshats with their juice.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 5:11 pm
by XunilTlatoani
Homercles wrote:they should be banned but they wont. Baseball doesnt have a drug policy which would enalbe them to ban these players. Hell, Strawberry was a recurring coke head and he continued to play baseball. Same goes for Howe. As long as the Players Union is in charge nothing substantial will ever been done concerning a drug policy.

The Players Union will eventually be the demise of Major League Baseball
It's not entirely the players union's fault. Nothing is done because the union is holding the drug policy (which > 80% of the union members want stricter) as a bargaining chip and ownership has been unwilling to give up anything to get a strict drug policy in place. I know it's in the best interest of baseball, but if I were in the union (or any union for that matter), I wouldn't want to give up the privacy rights of my rank-and-file without getting something in return. Union leadership is just doing what it is paid to do...

Posted: December 2, 2004, 6:06 pm
by Winnow
XunilTlatoani wrote:
It's not entirely the players union's fault. Nothing is done because the union is holding the drug policy (which > 80% of the union members want stricter) as a bargaining chip and ownership has been unwilling to give up anything to get a strict drug policy in place. I know it's in the best interest of baseball, but if I were in the union (or any union for that matter), I wouldn't want to give up the privacy rights of my rank-and-file without getting something in return. Union leadership is just doing what it is paid to do...
I wish I could go to my employer and ask for more money because they want to drug test me. I don't see the logic. Privacy? A bazillion companies drug test their employees. The players want something in return for giving the game more integrity?

My current company doesn't drug test but I used to piss all over the place at Motorola. They had mad drug testing almost once a month.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 7:03 pm
by Sueven
Winnow wrote:I wish I could go to my employer and ask for more money because they want to drug test me.
Assuming that:
1. You are represented by a Union;
2. Your union goes through a collective bargaining process;
3. Management has requested a drug-testing policy

Then I am relatively certain that yes, you would receive some concessions, including possibly more money.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 8:23 pm
by XunilTlatoani
:vv_yeahthat:

Winnow, It's a totally different ballgame (no pun) when all the employees of a company are represented by a union. Every single policy that isn't written in stone has to go to negotiations.

As far as I know, random drug testing by employers is not a requirement by law. If your non-union company requires it, then you either submit to the testing or you quit (or you fight it, which will most likely result in your termination). If your union company wants to require it, then either the union agrees to do it or everyone goes on strike....typically unions don't give the company something for nothing.

That's where this process is getting slowed down. Like I said, a vast majority (> 80%) of MLB players want a steroid/drug testing policy in place with some real punishments for offenders, but it's not up to the rank-and-file to vote on that. Donald Fehr (the MLB union leader) said that they don't poll the rank-and-file on issues, so don't confuse the player's union with the actual players themselves.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 10:27 pm
by Tyek
Darryl Strawberry is a different case. Steroids are cheating, I don't think coke helps your performance all that much. Personally, I don't think that athletes should even be tested for drugs that aren't performance-enhancing.
Strawberry and Howe were addicts, the drug controlled them and it is probably reasonable to assume they played some games under the influence of the drugs. While they are not performance enhancing drugs, they may have altered their performances and therefore affected it's outcome. Any type of drugs, performance enhancing or not inpacts the integrity of the game itself and they should have been suspended first, then banned after multiple instances.

Until there is an actual penalty for doing the drugs they will continue to do them. Jason Giambi has 120 million reasons to do them. Will it kill him? Maybe, but he is young and felt invincible. They need to start setting harsh penalties to make the risk outweigh the reward.

Posted: December 2, 2004, 10:30 pm
by Chidoro
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:They suspend pitchers for using performance enhancing items such as nail files, vaseline, etc.....why not the hitters for using illegal substances?
"You put SNOT on the ball"? :lol:

Posted: December 2, 2004, 11:53 pm
by Pherr the Dorf
Correct me if I am wrong, Bonds has never been proven juiced, Bonds has never tested positive, and this past year, when he was being watched like at HAWK, at the age of 40 for gods sake, he had a broke more records, won the batting title, won the MVP and actually had a better Hr/AB ratio then anyone, besides one other season he had in history. now we live in america where you are what till proven what? Am I stupid enough to think he wasn't offered these steroids by his best friend from childhood and former trainer... no... but if he was taking him, why didn't he slim down at all (he came in 2, count them 2 pounds under his weight from a year before), why didn't his skills drop off like everyone else?

Posted: December 3, 2004, 1:50 am
by Tyek
They were tested, but the results were never revealed.

Last season all tests were anonymous. They were tested but no names were attached. Also the things he is accused of taking were new drugs that were not being tested for. Victor Conti head of Balco says point blank in the interview airing tomorrow that beating the drug tests were like "taking candy from a baby" . What he accomplished and is accomplishing is amazing, but if he did it juiced then they are not real figures.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 2:52 am
by noel
Pherr the Dorf wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, Bonds has never been proven juiced, Bonds has never tested positive, and this past year, when he was being watched like at HAWK, at the age of 40 for gods sake, he had a broke more records, won the batting title, won the MVP and actually had a better Hr/AB ratio then anyone, besides one other season he had in history. now we live in america where you are what till proven what? Am I stupid enough to think he wasn't offered these steroids by his best friend from childhood and former trainer... no... but if he was taking him, why didn't he slim down at all (he came in 2, count them 2 pounds under his weight from a year before), why didn't his skills drop off like everyone else?
Bonds may be clean as a whistle. It's sad that he, like Lance Armstrong, will never be able to prove it.

Once again though comes down to, 'You are who you roll with.' Bonds might be clean, but the circumstantial evidence... and I'm only speaking about the circumstantial evidence that's been made public... looks pretty bad.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 3:41 am
by Soreali
According to a report on the San Francisco Chronicle's Web site late Thursday night, Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (BALCO), but he said he never thought they were steroids.
Bonds testified that he received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season, but that he was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by the Chronicle.

Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations.

Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, told the Chronicle he was upset, though not entirely surprised, that his client's secret testimony had been revealed.

During the three-hour proceeding, two prosecutors presented Bonds with documents that allegedly detailed his use of a long list of drugs: human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," insulin and Clomid, a drug for female infertility sometimes used to enhance the effect of testosterone.

But Bonds said he had never paid Anderson for steroids and had never knowingly used them.

Bonds said that as far as he knew, Anderson gave him only legal products to treat the arthritis and fatigue that afflicted him, especially when playing a day game after a night game. The trainer brought the products into the Giants' clubhouse at Pac Bell Park "once a homestand," Bonds said, and that's where he used them.

"It was in the ballpark ... in front of everybody," Bonds said. "I mean, all the reporters, my teammates. I mean, they all saw it. I didn't hide it."

Late Wednesday night, the Chronicle reported that, according to transcripts, Giambi told the federal grand jury that he used steroids, some of which were provided to him by Anderson.

Other players who admitted their use of performance-enhancing drugs were former Giants Armando Rios, Benito Santiago and Bobby Estalella.

A sixth witness, Yankees outfielder Gary Sheffield, testified that while he trained with Bonds in the Bay Area before the 2002 baseball season, Bonds arranged for him to receive "the cream," "the clear" and "red beans," which the prosecutors identified as steroid pills manufactured in Mexico.

Sheffield said he was never told that the substances were steroids. Bonds also was using "the cream" and "the clear," Sheffield said.

Since the BALCO scandal erupted, Bonds has insisted he never used banned drugs. But in statements they later denied making, both Conte and BALCO Vice President James Valente, also indicted, told investigators that Anderson was supplying steroids to Bonds, court records show.

In addition, the Chronicle reported that in a secretly recorded conversation, Anderson said Bonds had used an "undetectable" performance-enhancing drug during the 2003 season.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/m ... &fext=.jsp

Posted: December 3, 2004, 11:55 am
by XunilTlatoani
But Bonds said he ... had never knowingly used them.
Just like Sammy said he didn't know his bat was corked :roll:

Kind of a side note, but what do you guys think about newspapers who report on illegally leaked grand jury testimony? I know there are federal laws preventing grand jury testimony from being leaked, but do you feel the newspaper is in the wrong for reporting it? Personally I'm torn on the issue, but I wish that the SF Chronicle reporters had used the testimony as a tool to get the story instead of quoting the illegal transcript as their sole evidence. Then again, if they hadn't reported it, someone else would have..

Here's what Bonds attorney said in regards to this:
He said he had no proof but suspected the government was the source of the leak, insisting it had been out to get Bonds from the beginning.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 12:59 pm
by Mr Bacon
It's sad.. even our biggest stars (such as Jimmy Swanson) are using steroids as well.

http://home.comcast.net/~timmall/South_ ... ou_say.wav

Posted: December 3, 2004, 12:59 pm
by Tyek
Because getting Bonds accomplishes what for the government?

Here comes the racial persecution defense. Add a little "I did not know they were illegal substances" and hope for the best i guess.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 1:07 pm
by Winnow
If you were smoking pot and you claimed you thought it was tobacco would it get you off the hook?

Posted: December 3, 2004, 1:22 pm
by Chidoro
Barry in all of his years from rookie through the 2000 season, he hit 3 home runs over 450 feet.

He's hit 25 since then

Posted: December 3, 2004, 2:07 pm
by noel
He can say he didn't know all he wants. It's fucking total bullshit. Total bullshit.

There's not a professional athlete on the planet that puts anything in or on his body that he doesn't know what it is. It is a LIE. Barry Bonds might be a wonderful person, but he's cheating.

Also interesting that every single one of the other athletes that's admitted to using 'Teh Cream' or 'Teh Clear' including Gary Sheffield knew damn well what it was, but Barry Bonds, Greg Anderson's best friend... didn't know.

I've got a Bridge in San Francisco I'd like to sell you.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 2:09 pm
by Sylvus
I guess we can put the "we will never know" statements to rest. Barry was using steroids, at least to some degree, and the only question now is whether he was actually duped or if he is just trying to cover his ass. My money is on the latter.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 2:18 pm
by Winnow
Sylvus wrote:I guess we can put the "we will never know" statements to rest. Barry was using steroids, at least to some degree, and the only question now is whether he was actually duped or if he is just trying to cover his ass. My money is on the latter.
I very good point made on a radio talk show today was if Barry Bonds didn't know he was using steroids, where is the outrage and lawsuits? Some guy pumped roids into Bonds body and he doesn't care?

It's bullshit. He'd be going nuts, suing Balco and claiming his life was ruined etc. He knew.

My opinion is that McGuire, Sosa, Giambi's MVP, Bonds and anyone elses records of people that used roids should have an asterix by them and the league needs to set a drug policy. I don't think the records should be taken away altogether.

I can't stand unions. So fucking lame. The owners need to take a stand and stop baseball for a year until the union gives in. The fan support will be 100 percent on the side of the owners if they say the only reason baseball is stopped is because a drug policy is needed. The players union will look like tools for asking for money or compensation to uphold the basic integrity of the game.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 2:54 pm
by Kluden
Good god! Owner's care if their player's are drug tested? I truly doubt that 100% of them feel that way.

I mean, the only reason the San Fran Giants are on TV (non local stations) is because of Barry. That is great income for a team owner. Do you honestly think they want players that are juicing and playing well, ie. making them money, to be caught, and their team going back to the mediocre ball club it is?

Owner's would stand to lose money, so I don't see them all getting together and saying "Yes, we must have drug testing".

Posted: December 3, 2004, 3:07 pm
by noel
I just heard a reporter for I believe the New York Daily News (might be a different publication) say that he won't vote for Bonds to get into the hall of fame based on this.

He also said that he dismisses any suggestion that Bonds didn't know they were steroids out of hand.

I'll say it again. There is no professional athlete that works as hard as Bonds does that doesn't know EXACTLY how much he's sleeping, what he's eating, how many hours a day he's working out, or... what supplements he's taking. It's complete and total bullshit.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 4:02 pm
by Winnow
Kluden wrote:Good god! Owner's care if their player's are drug tested? I truly doubt that 100% of them feel that way.
You sure about that? How long did it take for the NY Yankees to try and void Giambi's contract with the league office? Was it more or less than 5 minutes after the announcement? They may be two-faced about it but they want a drug policy in place.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 4:09 pm
by Kilmoll the Sexy
You can't judge all the owners by the attempt to void Giambi's contract. Giambi turned into such a turd of a player that they would do ANYTHING to get that albatross off their neck. They were doing cartwheels in the Yankee's offices precisely 8.3 seconds after that story hit the wire.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 4:12 pm
by Winnow
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:You can't judge all the owners by the attempt to void Giambi's contract. Giambi turned into such a turd of a player that they would do ANYTHING to get that albatross off their neck. They were doing cartwheels in the Yankee's offices precisely 8.3 seconds after that story hit the wire.
Well they're two-faced for sure. You won't be seeing the S.F owner trying to void Bonds contract unless Bonds takes ill from horse urin use and starts sucking. They'd be all over it then. "Get this POS off my team!"

Posted: December 3, 2004, 4:27 pm
by Sueven
1. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Gary Sheffield denied knowing that those substances were steroids.
2. I could be wrong, but I think the Yankees have explored terminating Giambi's contract and have not actually attempted to do so. If this is so, then the answer to your question is "more than 5 minutes." Additionally, Giambi's healthy .208 batting average might have something to do with it.
3. My personal theory is that Barry was given steroids, figured they were probably shady, and decided to take them anyway without asking. He may not have known specifically what was in them, but he probably knew that they were illegal.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 4:29 pm
by Kluden
Well, in Giambi's case, it is an admitted one. That's why you see the owner's taking that stance.

I think when it is "unfounded" or "unproven", you see the owners being tight lipped about it, when they should be saying publicly, "We are going to test our athlete for steroid use, and void the contract should anything come up"...or something to that extent. (that is extreme simple example, I know it would not be like that).

Anyways, yes, I think you will not being seeing resistance from the owners of larger, better, organizations when it comes to implementing solid, drug/enhancement testing on their players. Why? because they stand to lose the most. They have the best players, the only thing that can happen to their team is, they lose good players because of scandal. Bad teams have nothing to lose, cause they will still suck after the player is ousted.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 4:33 pm
by Winnow
Sueven wrote: 3. My personal theory is that Barry was given steroids, figured they were probably shady, and decided to take them anyway without asking. He may not have known specifically what was in them, but he probably knew that they were illegal.
You need to get a job as a union representative somewhere.

"How is making scat films during our lunch break in the employee cafeteria affecting our performance? If you want us to stop making scat films, we demand a raise!"

Posted: December 3, 2004, 4:45 pm
by noel
Sueven wrote:1. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Gary Sheffield denied knowing that those substances were steroids.
But he said when he found out, he stopped. He found out from someone, who was it?
2. I could be wrong, but I think the Yankees have explored terminating Giambi's contract and have not actually attempted to do so. If this is so, then the answer to your question is "more than 5 minutes." Additionally, Giambi's healthy .208 batting average might have something to do with it.
Giambi was quoted in his grand jury testimony as having said, "I want what Barry is using."
3. My personal theory is that Barry was given steroids, figured they were probably shady, and decided to take them anyway without asking. He may not have known specifically what was in them, but he probably knew that they were illegal.
Even when you disagree with me, I've always liked and respected your posts, but your point 3, is horseshit. Even if he didn't ask, which is for me a huge stretch of the imagination, if he had any inkling that they were steroids, or shady, etc. He was knowingly cheating. Knowingly defrauding baseball fans of the product they paid to see.

How could he not know? Did he not notice the weight gain? Did he not notice the improved power? The fact is that Barry Bonds would have probably been a first ballot hall of famer without steroids, but now that it's out that he did in fact use them... and this is whether he knew it or not... every single one of his 'records' will have to have an asterisk next to it.

The sad thing in all of this is that unlike the NBA where you have a comissioner who's willing to drop a hammer down, MLB has... Bud Selig, who won't do a thing and the fans will continue to get screwed.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 5:38 pm
by Winnow
Look at the size of Barry Bonds' melon:

Image

[glow=orange]GUILTY![/glow]

Posted: December 3, 2004, 6:41 pm
by *~*stragi*~*
heh, you're a fool if you think he isn't juicing.. integrity no longer exists in 'professional' sports.

Posted: December 3, 2004, 6:42 pm
by Sueven
But he said when he found out, he stopped. He found out from someone, who was it?
Good question that certainly needs to be answered. If you notice, Barry stopped as well.
Giambi was quoted in his grand jury testimony as having said, "I want what Barry is using."
How does this apply to the fact that the Yankees have taken more than five minutes to move to terminate Giambi's contract?
Even when you disagree with me, I've always liked and respected your posts, but your point 3, is horseshit. Even if he didn't ask, which is for me a huge stretch of the imagination, if he had any inkling that they were steroids, or shady, etc. He was knowingly cheating. Knowingly defrauding baseball fans of the product they paid to see.

How could he not know? Did he not notice the weight gain? Did he not notice the improved power? The fact is that Barry Bonds would have probably been a first ballot hall of famer without steroids, but now that it's out that he did in fact use them... and this is whether he knew it or not... every single one of his 'records' will have to have an asterisk next to it.
Can you please point out to me where I said "Barry's behavior is justified" or "We shouldn't criticize Barry for this" or "I would have done the same thing Barry did." I said that he probably was aware that he was taking something illegal. I said that he probably took an attitude that, if he didn't know what was in it, he couldn't be held responsible. I do not condone this attitude. My scenario:

Barry Bonds' trainer, wishing to enhance his reputation and prestige, supplied Barry with steroids.
Barry, wishing to enhance his performance, chooses to use these supplements without asking questions, despite the fact that he suspects that they are likely illegal.
Barry gets bigger and his performance increases. At this point, he knows that he's probably taking something shady, but he is still able to plausibly claim otherwise.

How is that scenario implausible in the slightest? Furthermore, how did anything that I wrote suggest that I supported this behavior?

Posted: December 3, 2004, 8:10 pm
by noel
Sueven wrote:
Giambi was quoted in his grand jury testimony as having said, "I want what Barry is using."
How does this apply to the fact that the Yankees have taken more than five minutes to move to terminate Giambi's contract?
Sorry, I was slammed at work. I was just trying to make more of a case that Bonds knew what he was doing.

Regarding the rest of your post... my bad, I read into it a bit.

I still don't believe there's any possible scenario where a professional athlete is regularly taking any kind of supplement and doesn't know what it is.

I loved Barry's take that he was taking it for arthritis. Did he notice that his 'arthritis' :roll: wasn't going away, but that his dome was getting ginormous?

Posted: December 3, 2004, 10:29 pm
by Sueven
The statistic that Chidoro posted is very telling. That really shows that the drugs have real effects.

Posted: December 4, 2004, 2:13 am
by MooZilla
Sylvus wrote:Darryl Strawberry is a different case. Steroids are cheating, I don't think coke helps your performance all that much. Personally, I don't think that athletes should even be tested for drugs that aren't performance-enhancing.

Taking that even further, I'd like to encourage all athletes to take steroids, cork their bats, etc, as it makes the game more exciting. Who wants to watch boring-ass 1995 MLB baseball? It's more fun when McGwire and Sosa are both cheaters and hitting 70 home runs in a season.
Amen to that :) Cheating makes it intersting. (sp)

Posted: December 4, 2004, 2:50 am
by Tenuvil
noel wrote:I loved Barry's take that he was taking it for arthritis. Did he notice that his 'arthritis' :roll: wasn't going away, but that his dome was getting ginormous?
ROFuckingFL!

If the cap don't fit, the Hall must not permit!

Posted: December 4, 2004, 11:54 am
by Voronwë
Was he taking Clomid because he was having a hard time getting pregnant?

Posted: December 7, 2004, 10:58 pm
by Raistin
1986-2000 2001-04

Batting Average .289 .349

On-Base Percentage .412 .559

Slugging Percentage .567 .809

Stolen Bases 471 35

Gold Gloves 8 0

Home Run Titles 1 1

Batting Crowns 0 2

MVPs 3 4

Black Ink* 33 32

Grey Ink# 223 62

*Black Ink scores measure how often a player leads the league in major categories.
#Grey Ink scores measure how often a player places in the top 10 in a league in major categories.





If this doesnt show the effects I dont know what some of you will believe.

Hank Aaron
First, since I played the game myself I know that you can't put something in your body to make you hit a fast ball, a change-up, or a curve ball. The only person who can do that is the Good Lord. But at that age, at age 40, you have to ask, did Barry Bonds accomplish all of this by rejuvenating his strength from day to day with those substances? I know that when you reach a certain age, you just don't bounce back as quickly as you think you can when you're playing all those games," sort of like recovery from a workout. That's why they tell you to do it every other day or different muscle groups so you can recover from it. But these things may enhance your recovery time and you get less fatigued and you have less muscle breakdown because this stuff builds it back up. "Drugs won't help you hit the ball," Hank Aaron says, "but can they make you recuperate consistently enough to hit the kind of home runs these guys are hitting