VeeshanVault

Uhhh show me another country in the world that has so many living above the poverty line. Show me another country in the world that has so many people who want to emigrate there. Does Sweden have an open door policy to immigration or is it like Germany where you can go work there but can never obtain a citizenship. "

Speaking of poverty lines I would like to see Swedens record on foreign aid to these countries; pretty much the whole continent of Africa, South America and your neighbours in the old russian satellite countries. So if anyone want to bash the USA on its foreign policies be sure you check the WHOLE fucking picture. For the record I am a Canadian and think the States is the greatest country in the world. "

You are the one who should check the "WHOLE fucking picture", Toker. I'm quite sure you'd see that many of the european countries on a per capita basis give more financial aid to third world countries (and no, sending them tanks or rifles does not = financial aid) than the US do - I have no hard numbers, though. And your reply about the amount of people living above the popeverty line is bordering on the laughable. Again, I doubt you will see another first-world-country that has so large a percentage of it's population living in squalor. Oh and by the way, paid your dues to the UN lately?

There is no doubt that the US remains a beacon for many people in the third world who dream of living in luxury, or just dream of having opportunities. Lots of people I know here in Denmark would like to try and live in the US for a while. The country, it's history and it's psyche, is fascinating, no doubt about it. But guess what? Most of the immigration from northern africa, from the Gulf area and from south eastern europe goes to the EU. So stop your uninformed assumptions about how immigration works in northern Europe. They serve no purpose, they lend no weight to your arguments.

Drolgin...

/bonk anyone can make unfounded statement like you just did. Your arguements carry as much weight as Tokers!

Now then I think we should all just pack up and move to hrmm...

Uzbekistan!!

Drolgin is pissed because of the subtle insinuations that he is a Swede...

As another non-American, I will state that I am not totally in love with US foreign policy either, however I am not an American, thus the policy is not intended to serve the (sole) best interests of me or of my country. I kind of like the "18th century robber baron" analysis, as at times, that is exactly the way it comes across, in terms of some of the conflicts and trade disputes (come now, who REALLY belives the Gulf War was about freeing the people of Kuwait and not the economic interests/foreign investments of several countries). On international trade and protectionism, I'd also say that as protectionist as the US is, in international trade, the EU doesn't have any room to talk.

In foreign economic and humanitarian aid, I would have a hard time believing many countries surpass the US. For one thing, how many European nations have populations in excess of 250 million people to draw these resources from? Per capita, I have no idea, but from what I know of Americans I have no doubt that they are on a similar scale with the rest of the world.

The US as the World's Policeman has been a role that they partially assumed and partially were thrust into after World War II and the Cold War. Now there is really no one else capable of assuming the role (in terms of both manpower and financial obligations). Some people will say the UN should handle this, but the UN has shown in the Balkans how ineffective they are: how many years will foreign peace keepers need to remain in place before the UN can broker some kind of agreement to stop the ethnic violence?

Now I think it is time this thread got back on track and villified the right people, who are not the Americans, but the French!!!

Here's a little tid bit the French always get all pissed off when I mention:

There is no longer any true French wine. Years ago, an incurable root rot blighted their vineyards. They discovered that American stock had developed a resistance to the blight, so EVERY vine in France was cut and grafted onto American root stock.

So even the product that they attatch the most cultural and monetary significance to isn't French, but American at the root.

Wulfran very good points and further to those points and to address the point made by Drolgin.

Oh and by the way, paid your dues to the UN lately?

Has the UN repaid the USA for the enormous expenses they incurred during the Gulf War and every other UN sanctioned conflict sine then?

Hrmm I wonder who owes who what?

Hammerstalker PE wrote:Wulfran very good points and further to those points and to address the point made by Drolgin.

Oh and by the way, paid your dues to the UN lately?

Has the UN repaid the USA for the enormous expenses they incurred during the Gulf War and every other UN sanctioned conflict sine then?

Hrmm I wonder who owes who what?

http://www.cwfa.org/library/nation/2000 ... debt.shtml

The UN claims the US owes the organization a couple billion.

The republican congress refuses to pay (there's a shocker) because they claim that the UN owes them six and a half billion for peacekeeping operations. This is despite the fact these peacekeeping operations were not UN operations under UN guidelines and UN leadership (and thus mostly clusterfucks like Somalia).

It is sort of like me telling voronwe that I don't need to pay him back the 20 bucks I owe him becuase I gave it to some random homeless guy.

The US actually profited from the gulf war, as the money sent to them by member nations exceeded the budget cost of the conflict, not the mention the economic boost the country got for making another eleventy trillion cruise missiles and the fact that the war made the Bush family's billionaire warbuck cronies even richer.

i was under the impression that the US didnt want to pay the UN the dues because there were several countries who had not paid their leases for various offices in New York that they had around the UN. So the US was using its "UN dues" as leverage to make the UN kick these countries in the ass who were essentially not paying their rent.

who knows, anyways, i want my $20 kyo!!!

Katria wrote: Or how about the lazy ass fucks in California who decided that instead of teaching kids how to speak proper English, and hey here's a fucking idea, not pass them on to the next grade unless they do so, they instead come up with Ebonics. Who's fucking brilliant idea was that? Promote laziness and give the fucks their own language.

You don't live in California. First of all if you live in the Bay Area there are tons of Asians and Indian-Americans (came from India). If you move to the Valley there is a heavier Mexican/White population. And about the rest of the damn state I dunno...never been there.

Ever seen "Not another teen movie"? See how that one kid was acting like a "black guy" and he was talkin' like FOO and shit like that? That is where the stereotype comes from. Yes many of us speak very good English...actually most of us do.

I am SO not racist but that stereotype belongs to African Americans...and it is actually quite true for most of them. And some other people who just talk that way becuz they didn't master the English language. But yeah most the people I talk to have more of just a plain California accent than anything else.

K? Understand? Need to know more about California? Ask me! a resident of California!

Yo buss diss foo, i bet you ain't be trippin' out in the boonies this weekend huh niggah? (Most people don't talk that way...)

EDIT - OMG yes they DO teach English here jeezus it is quite annoying might I add...

Drolgin ain't a Swede?


Hiya Droldorf

Da he is Svedish!

Drolgin,


Invesigate before you propagate, muh man.


The top 5%? Do you have any idea how well off people in America are? Hell, you can be below the poverty level here and still own two cars and cable TV.

I'd be lucky to make it into the top 60%, and I have more toys than I have time to play with? Top 5%? The super-rich? Who gives a damn?


Apparently those in other countries do.


As for the "speak English" sentiments, would you do buisness with a stockbroker who didn't know the language of the Street? Hell no. Why should I be required to learn the language of another country to communicate with people who are STANDING IN MY FRONT YARD?


Does the U.S government base decisions on economics? Damn straight. If you don't think taht most countries do, you are living in the dark, bruddah.

Oh, and Saddam the Mad should have been slam-dunked a decade ago. Call it arrogant if you like, but he needs to be thanking someones gutlessness that he has been allowed to breathe this long.

Fal, my post about the huddled and tired masses was meant as a joke. I agree that a minimal degree of fluency in the language of the country you are migrating to, for whatever reason, is (or should be) required.

And I *do* think it's a problem when a society concentrates wealth in the way that it happens in the US, but that's a political debate on a whole different level. As for the poverty issue, I think you're wrong - I'll see if I still have the links to some of the UNESCO reports.

EDIT: not enough coffee + too much sugar + not enough sleep + spelling > me.

You know, this would be a much better medium if you could read body language, etc.



Drolgin, the last time I checked (about 4 years ago when the minimum wage was raised last), the poverty line was just over $24,000 a year for a couple. And yes, you can own two autos and watch MTV for that kind of salary.

Just be careful when you read abou the 'poor' in America. yes, we do have pockets of true poverty. We also have a large number of citizens who like to cry because they have to work 40 hours a week to feed themselves. It can be tough to tell the difference without a lot of investigation.

Wulfran wrote:Drolgin is pissed because of the subtle insinuations that he is a Swede...

WTF?! Drolgin ain't swede? Shaion lied to me? Bastard!!!

Lets get back on the subject shall we?

Ok now everyone knows that Canada is the BEST place in the world to live. The only problem we have are the DAMN separatist neo-fascist asshole Franco-phones.

I say we buy them all first class tickets back to France and be done with it!

An Ontarian wanted to become a Newfie (Newfoundlander). He went to a neurosurgeon and asked "Is there anything you can do to me that would make me into a Newfie?". "Sure, it's easy." replied the neurosurgeon. "All I have to do is cut out 1/3 of your brain, and you'll be a Newfie." The Ontarian was very pleased, and immediately underwent the operation. However, the surgeon's knife slipped, and instead of cutting out 1/3 of the patient's brain, the surgeon accidentally cut out 2/3 of the patient's brain. He was terribly remorseful, and waited impatiently beside the patient's bed as the patient recovered from the anesthetic. As soon as the patient was conscious, the neurosurgeon said to him "I'm terribly sorry, but there was a ghastly accident. Instead of cutting out 1/3 of your brain, I accidentally cut out 2/3 of your brain." The patient replied "Qu'est-ce que vous avez dit, monsieur?"

He's a swede at heart oogah, at heart.

Name me one other country in the so-called western world that concentrates the wealth in the upper 5% of the population like the US does.

Australia.

ps. Drolgin is a swede

Drolgin is not a Swede, his brother is the infamous PREBEN!

INC PREBEN + KIRA + STRIPPEKONGENS PIGER

Would it be wrong to nuke the French?

Why can't Americans fuck in public without being arrested?

I'm moving to Paris

Hammer said:

Lets get back on the subject shall we?

Ok now everyone knows that Canada is the BEST place in the world to live. The only problem we have are the DAMN separatist neo-fascist asshole Franco-phones.

I say we buy them all first class tickets back to France and be done with it!

AMEN !!!

Ohh and i have another problem with canada !

The Dollar is worthless

Heh, since we are on the topic of Canada, I got this email the other day. Guess I'll share it here.


*******************
Subject: PROUD CANADIANS

SO, WHAT DO CANADIANS HAVE TO BE PROUD OF? FROM A CANADIAN'S POINT OF
VIEW

1. Smarties
2. Crispy Crunch, Coffee Crisp
3. The size of our footballs fields and one less down
4. Baseball is Canadian
5. Lacrosse is Canadian
6. Hockey is Canadian
7. Basketball is Canadian
8. Apple pie is Canadian
9. Mr. Dress-up kicks Mr. Rogers butt
10. Tim Hortons kicks Dunkin' Donuts butt
11. In the war of 1812, started by America, Canadians pushed the
Americans
back... past their 'White House'. Then we burned it...and most of
Washington, under the
command of William Lyon McKenzie who was insane and hammered all the
time.
We got bored because they ran away, so we came home and partied...Go
figure..
12. Canada has the largest French population that never surrendered to
Germany.
13. We have the largest English population that never ever surrendered
or
withdrew during any war to anyone, anywhere.
14. Our civil war was a bar fight that lasted a little over an hour.
15. The only person who was arrested in our civil war was an American
mercenary, who slept in and missed the whole thing... but showed up just
in
time to get caught.
16. We knew plaid was cool far before Seattle caught on.
17. The Hudsons Bay Company once owned over 10% of the earth's surface
and
is still around as the worlds oldest company.
18. The average dog sled team can kill and devour a full grown human in
under 3 minutes.
19. We still know what to do with all the parts of a buffalo.
20. We don't marry our kin-folk.
21. We invented ski-doos, jet-skis, velcro, zippers, insulin,
penicillin,
zambonis, the telephone and short wave radios that save countless lives
each year.
22. We ALL have frozen our tongues to something metal and lived to tell
about it.
23. A Canadian invented Superman.

BUT MOST IMPORTANT!
24. The handles on our beer cases are big enough to fit your hands with
mitts on.

Oh yeah... and our elections only take one day.

***************

I don't know who wrote this up, but I thought it was funny.

And that is why I AM CANADIAN!!

/salute Canada

I love the following from the above post

In the war of 1812, started by America, Canadians pushed the
Americans
back... past their 'White House'. Then we burned it...and most of
Washington, under the
command of William Lyon McKenzie who was insane and hammered all the
time.
We got bored because they ran away, so we came home and partied...Go
figure..

and this haha!

We have the largest English population that never ever surrendered
or
withdrew during any war to anyone, anywhere.

and finally this

The handles on our beer cases are big enough to fit your hands with
mitts on.

Then we burned it...and most of Washington, under the command of William Lyon McKenzie...

This explains the McKenzie Bros...ROFL!!!

christ their potheads are unionized?

We need a fucking weed union in the U.S. I'm sick of being out of weed all the damn time.

Can you say stereotypical... how can you say you hate a nationality an assume they are all the same.

Havocmann ! wrote:Can you say stereotypical... how can you say you hate a nationality an assume they are all the same.

you wont get very fair with that attitude sonny

ummm... that doesnt make sence , come again.

Once again Hijacked this is a Franco-phone bashing thread!

Mange le Merde you French Seperatist basterds! I fart in your general direction.

With some commentary, and it begins....NOW!


Heh, since we are on the topic of Canada, I got this email the other day. Guess I'll share it here.


*******************
Subject: PROUD CANADIANS

SO, WHAT DO CANADIANS HAVE TO BE PROUD OF? FROM A CANADIAN'S POINT OF
VIEW

1. Smarties (sucks)
2. Crispy Crunch, Coffee Crisp (sucks)
3. The size of our footballs fields and one less down
4. Baseball is Canadian (boring, always on strike and overpaid)
5. Lacrosse is Canadian (i wanna beat people down with a basket on a stick too)
6. Hockey is Canadian (that's nice)
7. Basketball is Canadian (might wanna check that one...my 2XL when I was growing up told me it was american)
8. Apple pie is Canadian (that McDonald's crap is NOT real apple pie)
9. Mr. Dress-up kicks Mr. Rogers butt (they both suck)
10. Tim Hortons kicks Dunkin' Donuts butt (Krispy Kreme anyone?)
11. In the war of 1812, started by America, Canadians pushed the
Americans back... past their 'White House'. Then we burned it...and most of Washington, under the command of William Lyon McKenzie who was insane and hammered all the time. (This was was against Britain not France or Canada...)
We got bored because they ran away, so we came home and partied...Go
figure.. (Okay we party every day without reason)
12. Canada has the largest French population that never surrendered to
Germany. (You also didn't border Germany during a war now did you?)
13. We have the largest English population that never ever surrendered
or withdrew during any war to anyone, anywhere. (Gotta be in a war first)
14. Our civil war was a bar fight that lasted a little over an hour. (Then we have a civil war every few seconds here in the states)
15. The only person who was arrested in our civil war was an American
mercenary, who slept in and missed the whole thing... but showed up just
in time to get caught. (This one isn't in the history books)
16. We knew plaid was cool far before Seattle caught on. (Plaid is cool...if you suck)
17. The Hudsons Bay Company once owned over 10% of the earth's surface and is still around as the worlds oldest company. (And the Gap ownz Hudsons Bay)
18. The average dog sled team can kill and devour a full grown human in
under 3 minutes. (a buncha pigs can do the same thing)
19. We still know what to do with all the parts of a buffalo. (Native AMERICANS knew how to do it)
20. We don't marry our kin-folk. (That's a practice of the southern states which I have nothing to do with)
21. We invented ski-doos, jet-skis, velcro, zippers, insulin,
penicillin,
zambonis, the telephone and short wave radios that save countless lives
each year. (i'll believe this when you can name each inventor with sources, etc)
22. We ALL have frozen our tongues to something metal and lived to tell
about it. (Leave it to you for everyone in the population to do something that stupid...)
23. A Canadian invented Superman. (Superman has died countless times)

BUT MOST IMPORTANT!
24. The handles on our beer cases are big enough to fit your hands with
mitts on. (Don't need mits when it is 100 degrees and the beer tastes that much better).

Oh yeah... and our elections only take one day. (I don't vote but I think it is on the first Tuesday of November that we do our main voting, then we do one other thing in March for setting up the November vote. Hey it works good I think. All in all it takes 1-2 days to do it...btw if you are referring to our last presidential election that was becuz someone just HAD to look at that shit in Florida...)

END OF COMMENTARY

Now wasn't that fun?

Just so you know when we first started America we did try to take Canida to.... they kicked our ass... thats what they can be proud of.

Joramile

Basketball is indeed a Canadian invented sport. Sorry to burst your bubble on that.

Tim Hortons > Krispy Kreme

The "British" in 1812, in North America were the colonies of Upper and Lower Canada and whatever they called the maritimes then. Officially Canada wasn't a nation until until 1867, but realistically it was formed the day the US won their indepence. Sure it was dependant on British support for its colonists, markets for its products, etc. but realistically the governors of the colonies had enough autonomy to guide the colonies in whateer way they felt would strengthen them. Was it an elected governement? No. It was appointed by the Crown, but that isn't any different from a large number of governments of the day.

Ski-doos were invented by a gentleman named Bombardier: Jet-skis were an invention of the corporation he founded. Insulin was discovered by Sir Frederick Banting. Penicillin by a gentleman named Louis Pasteur. Telephone was an Ontario gentleman by the name of Alexander Graham Bell. Not sure about who invented it, but an Italian immigrant by the name of Marconi was responsible for the 1st trans-Atlantic short wave radio broadcast (so if he didn't invent, he improved it enough to be noteworthy).

And at 100 degrees you don't CARE if its beer... chilled horse piss in a bottle/can would work...

Canada ia a great country but dont take this the wrong way but you Football Sucks.

BLAME CANADA

Sheila: Time's have changed
Our kids are getting worse
They wont obey their parents
They just want to fart and curse!
Sharon: Should we blame the government?
Liane: Or blame society?
Dads: Or should we blame the images on TV?
Sheila: No, blame Canada
Everyone: Blame Canada
Sheila: With all their beady little eyes
And flappin heads so full of lies
Everyone: Blame Canada
Blame Canada
Sheila: We need to form a full assault
Everyone: It's Canadas fault!
Sharon: Don't blame me
For my son Stan
He saw the darn cartoon
And now he's off to join the Klan!
Liane: And my boy Eric once
Had my picture on his shelf
But now when I see him he tells me to fuck myself!
Sheila: Well, blame Canada
Everyone: Blame Canada
It seems that everythings gone wrong
Since Canada came along
Everyone: Blame Canada
Blame Canada
Some Guy: There not even a real country anyway
Ms. McCormick: My son could've been a doctor or a lawyer it's true
Instead he burned up like a piggy on a barbecue
Everyone: Should we blame the matches?
Should we blame the fire?
Or the doctors who allowed him to expire?
Sheila: Heck no!
Everyone: Blame Canada
Blame Canada
Sheila: With all their hockey hubbabaloo
Liane: And that bitch Anne Murray too
Everyone: Blame Canada
Shame on Canada
The smut we must stop
The trash we must smash
Laughter and fun
must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before someone thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus!

While the Canadian Inventions and Discoveries were very impressive I think a list of American Inventions is warranted.

FM Radio , ( We all Know AM sucks ) Edwin H Armstrong Born in, NY,NY
Steam Engine , Matthias W. Baldwin ,Born in Jersey
Transistor , John Bardeen, Wisconsin
Pace Maker, Otis Boykin, Dallas , Tx
Coca Cola , John S. Pemberton ,Georgia
Air Conditioner, Willis Haviland Carrier, Another New York man
Polio Vaccine, Jonas Edward Salk, New York
Poloroid Camera, Edwin H. Land Michigan
Pencil , Joseph Dixon, Massachusetts
Colt Revolver, Samuel Colt South Carolina
Browning Rifle, John M. Browning Utah
Vulcanized Rubber , Charles Goodyear, Ohio


These are just a few

some crazy Canuck wrote:21. We invented ski-doos, jet-skis, velcro, zippers, insulin,
penicillin,
zambonis, the telephone and short wave radios that save countless lives
each year.

Sir Alexander Fleming was Scottish, and he discoverd Penicillin, not Pasteur.

Banting and Best discovered Insulin, and won the Nobel Prize in 1920, while both worked at the Univ of Toronto.

Alexander Graham Bell was also Scottish and educated at University College in London.

Neither Marconi nor Tesla were Canadian either.

Because Einsten lived in the US for a time does not mean an American developed Special Relativity.

Joramile wrote:With some commentary, and it begins....NOW!

(name each inventor with sources, etc)
Now wasn't that fun?

Here you go Joramile.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/taniah/Canada/things/

Enjoy

EDIT: posted the wrong link hahaha

HOLY SHIT!!!!! A Canadian invented the Instant Potato Flake.

ALL MADE IN TAIWAN! WTF!

...

Problem with the 'french separatist bastards' is the fact that they are the economic locomitive of the country... So I wouldn't be so proud of 'my' economy and then say the very people who give me that economy are 'bastards'. Quebec is to Canada what Florida is to the US.

As for the America/Europe thing... Talking about it is all but useless. Both sides won't even try to understand each other, because they were pulled too far apart. I'm going to an american college in Europe ( I will gladly admit there are good things about America. College education is one of them, admitting you have the money to pay it with. I do have a problem with turning education into a business. In Switzerland, the top economics college is a public one. No numerus clausus, all are accepted. And fee is less than 1k $ per year, books not included. Laugh all you want. ), and I had to take three days of orientation and 'ice-breaking' with transfer students, all of them from the US.

So a friend and I were chatting with this girl from St. Louis. We were filling her in as to the customs of the place, where to eat, what to wear, the weather,etc... ( I live in Switzerland ) . We also told her people disliked americans. When she asked why, we proceeded to explain the variety of reasons ( all have already been said on this thread ), and she did admit the fact ( in her opinion ) americans were 'rude', and 'superficial'. Another thing I found laughable is the fact the Americans there ( quite a few, it is an american college after all ), claimed they came from a 'friendly, open-minded culture'.

I'm perfectly right with that. I speak English as well as French or Italian ( I'm neither, so don't say I defend France. I personally abhor the french too, but for different reasons. I'm belgian. ) . I'm not (un)friendly. So, since they claimed to come from a friendly culture, I did start chatting with some of them. All goes well. Then lunch time comes, and I go off with a few people I just met, and we have lunch together, chatting in french ( Note : I -did- prove that I could speak english just as well as they, and that I wasn't clannish in any kind of way ). Know what? Unless I started talking to them, they didn't even try to engage conversation with me. You could say 'You're a fuckwit, it's only you!' . And you'd be wrong. All the people speaking french were never adressed by the Americans. And this wasn't a one-day affair, it happened on the three days.

See the point? We were friendly, we did speak with them, they claim to be 'open-minded', and all you get is a few words and smiles and then they retreat to their clans.

To the person saying 'You come to America, you should learn english!' I will quite simply answer the fact that, as opposed to the UK or France, US never had a single language. Us started as a colony of different European countries. Now, that the MAJORITY of the people there spoke english, there is no doubt. That you claim it should be THE only language of the country though, is stupid. And the fact America refuses to acknowledge any other language as 'official' in different parts of the country, is also stupid. Hell, some of your states were bought from Mexico. You expect people living there to learn english and stop speaking spanish because they were bought?

I agree with the fact that if you move over to the US, since their domestic policy concerning language is so 'strict', you should learn english. However, when I see someone has a problem because he walks into a shop and the people there all come from a different country and speak the same language together, I think there is a problem. Oh... By the way. I live/go to college in a country that has seven and a half millions inhabitants, and that has three ( well, four if you count romanche ) official languages ( French, German and Italian ). And everyone is schooled to their language, + one of the two others AND english.

Masteen, before you go off blabbering shit like that on french wine, at least make it credible.

Quote:
Oh and by the way, paid your dues to the UN lately?




Has the UN repaid the USA for the enormous expenses they incurred during the Gulf War and every other UN sanctioned conflict since then?

Problem is, Gulf war and all that didn't solve anything. The goal was to save Kuweit AND remove Saddam from power, right? Still there, I think. Served only the US interests. And of course, the economical embargo on his country, and on Cuba ( how the fuck do you justify that? ) is normal, right? Sure... Go starve the people of that country. I mean, that's just soooo going to endear you to the other leaders of middle-east.

Fall... Two cars and cable tv isn't a good analogy. What cars? In what state of disrepair? Using them everyday? As for cable tv... I see satellitar antennas on the balcons of HLM in France ( HLM = Habitation a loyer modere. Basically huge chunks of concrete with lots of very small cheap flats, made to house the poor ) everyday.

Problem is, Gulf war and all that didn't solve anything. The goal was to save Kuweit AND remove Saddam from power, right? Still there, I think. Served only the US interests. And of course, the economical embargo on his country, and on Cuba ( how the fuck do you justify that? ) is normal, right? Sure... Go starve the people of that country. I mean, that's just soooo going to endear you to the other leaders of middle-east.

See Estro that is why you are a jackass. It is spelled Kuwait, and having a madman in control of a large portion of the worlds oil is a bad thing kthx.

He is still in power due to the negligence of countries like yours that got together and said enough is enough leave the poor bastard Saddam alone.

Further friendship or tolerance at any cost is not palatable to any nation with a sense of right and wrong. Don't kid yourself Saudi Arabia wanted the USA there as much as the European community did. Hey lets sit back and let the States fix this for us and they can once again be the bad guy.

So when Belgium ever stands up for anything post about bad US foreign policy.

Dorkhat

Problem with the 'french separatist bastards' is the fact that they are the economic locomitive of the country... So I wouldn't be so proud of 'my' economy and then say the very people who give me that economy are 'bastards'. Quebec is to Canada what Florida is to the US.

Sorry Estro, I have no idea what Fla means to the US Economy but Quebec is a drain on the Canadian one. Ontario is the most populous province and is the "economic locomotive". It also is home to the bulk of Canada's manufacturing/industrial capacity. Quebec is the second largest province by population, but is stagnant economically. If you look at the past 30 years, 3 provinces (of 10) have been "carrying the load" on the Canadian economy: Ontario (as mentioned), Alberta with the large petroleum base it has, and British Columbia, with its resource base and Canada's Pacific ports (i.e. agricultural, forrest and other resource based products to JPN and the Pacific Rim nations).

Quebec has suffered from the perception of instability that the repeated separatist governments and (defeated) referendums on sovereignty have brought. Since the late 70s (when the Parti Quebecois was first elected to form the provincial gov't), the business world has shunned Quebec, partially for fears of what could happen if they DID separate (theories of Quebec defaulting on thier provincial debts, and speculation of tensions after any secession) and language issues. English speaking business men literally packed up their shops and moved from Montreal to Toronto in droves. Now, Quebec is a distant second in Canada's industrial scheme and is a leader in no industry in Canada.

To be honest, in my part of the country, the consensus on the last referendum was that the rest of the country should hold a referendum to determine whether or not we wanted to keep them (with popular opinion being "No, we don't want to support their whining asses anymore").

Atokal said:

He (Saddam) is still in power due to the negligence of countries like yours that got together and said enough is enough leave the poor bastard Saddam alone.

There's no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a despot, he's more than that: He's an evil massmurderer. However, his worst crimes occured in the early 1980s when he had the full support of Reagan, Bush and Thatcher. And he wouldn't be in the position he is now if it hadn't been for that support.

The genocide of the kurdish minority, death camps reminiscent of Auschwitz and Treblinka. England and the US supported this man in creating weapons of mass destruction at a time when he was far more dangerous and a much bigger threat to worldpeace than he is now.

The people who supported him when he was the most dangerous can hardly expect to be taken seriously when they want to attack him today.

And I'm sorry, I feel I have every right to comment on bad US foreign policy. Are you aware that the US is the only country to have been convicted of acts of terror at the International Tribunal?

Want me to cite examples?

After Reagan instituted his doctrine against "international terrorism" in 1981, the US performed acts of terror against Nicaragua. In addition to the "regular" acts of war commited by the US came a decade of economical oppression that it's highly unlikely that that small country will ever recover from. And why? Because a vindictive and cruel superpower decided it was needed. The International Tribunal ruled in Nicaragua's favor in 1986 and ordered the US to stop their attacks and to pay restitution. What did the US do? They intensified their attacks. The Security Council of the UN drafted a resolution that appealed to all countries to adhere to international law. The US vetoed it. The General Council drafted a similar resolution. For 2 years, the US and Israel all but refused to acknowledge that this had ever happened and went on about their business as they saw fit.

Want more examples?

In 1985 the Reagan administration detonated a carbomb in Beirut. The target was a member of the muslim clergy. They missed him, instead the bomb killed 80 people and wounded 250, most of them women and children.

How about the way the US supports the atrocities commited by Israel?

How about the Clinton administration that supplied well over 75 percent of the weapons used in the Turkish oppression of the kurdish minority - an ethnic cleansing that rivals what we experienced on Balkan.

How about the bombing of the pharmaceutical installations in Sudan in august of 1998? The bombings themselves caused few deaths, but the ensuing lack of medicine and basic surgical equipment caused deaths in the tens of thousands.

The doctrine of "an eye for an eye" is what caused hundreds of years of wars in Europe, and the fact that doctrines like that almost wiped Europe off the map is what caused the nations of the world to form a pact after WW2 - The United Nations. The US administrations of the past forty years, however, seem to blatantly disregard the rules that were agreed upon in this forum, deciding to interpret them only as guidelines to be broken when it suits them best.

My dream of the world is a democracy. A world where people can voice disagreements, and talk them out like sane people. And that is why - no matter what country I come from, or how big a standing army my country has, or who got my grandfather out of the concentration camp in Buchenwald - I feel I have EVERY right to criticise the policies of the US. Just like you have every right to criticise the policies of, say, Kuala Lumpur.

Peace.


EDIT: spelling.

How about the bombing of the pharmaceutical installations in Sudan in august of 1998? The bombings themselves caused few deaths, but the ensuing lack of medicine and basic surgical equipment caused deaths in the tens of thousands.

Thats right, wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that in the Sudan they are killing each other by the tens of thousands. Oh, wait lets blame this on the USA too.
And speaking of acts of terror, I didnt see a list of terrorist acts committed by muslim terrorist groups that, guess what, live right next door to Israel. We could start with the one in 1972, I am sure you know the one of which I speak. I am not saying that the USA is blameless. What country is, and hey what did they ever do to you.

The reason you don't see a list of acts of terror performed by muslim governments is that your highly aggressive post to Estro delt with a non-american's right to criticize the (foreign) policies of the US. I responded to that.

How about the way the US supports the atrocities commited by Israel?

By making the above statement Drolgin, you must present the other side or be judged.

What attrocities are you speaking about? (not saying there arent any)
But here is a list of acts of terror just off the top of my head committed by the neighbours of Israel, you know those peace loving middle easterners you speak of.

1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred
by: Muslim extremists
2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by: Muslim extremists
3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
Muslim extremists
4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
Muslim extremists
5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered in his wheelchair and thrown overboard
by: Muslim extremists.
6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver
were murdered by: Muslim extremists
7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by: Muslim extremists
8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by: Muslim extremists
9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by: Muslim
10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands
of people were murdered by: Muslim extremists
11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against: Muslim extremists
12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by: Muslim extremists

This doesnt even take into account the endless suicide bombers etc.

It is a difficult mess to sort out to say the least but if the USA didnt befriend Israel would we be witness to another holocaust?

I also find it endlessly amusing how any political thread can be twist and turned to more USA bashing.

This is about the Fucking French dammit lets all try and stay on topic.


Cheers

But here is a list of acts of terror just off the top of my head committed by the neighbours of Israel, you know those peace loving middle easterners you speak of.

What peace loving middle easterners have I spoken of?

I dare you to look through my post and find one word that condones or apologizes for the acts of the Hammas or the Al'Queda or any other paramilitary, islamic organization.

The fact that islamic fundamentalists have commited horrid acts of violence against civilians and enlisted personnel both does not excuse the support of an oppressive, militaristic rule like that of Israel or providing that nation with weapons and machinery that are, largely, used to fight civilians.