VeeshanVault

I was raised in a very very strict Christian home, graduated from a Christian School, and even graduated from seminary (yikes).

However, (in my personal experience) I found that most of it was a big game with lots of rules that were quite difficult to follow. I pretty much found myself against organized religion as a whole. My family also followed the same progression.

Though I still hold many Christian(ish) beliefs, I don't refer to myself as a Christian - I don't usually associate with Christians or share their concerns. For the most part, I find them irritating. My faith is more internal than anything... I don't believe *I* have anything to prove because of my faith. In my book, God is quite capable of proving whatever he wants.

Calixte wrote:
Personally, the thought of there being NOTHING when I die is pretty damn depressing. To think of all my life's experiences, the people I love, and everything I hold dear to me POOF, gone, in one single moment - bleh... yea, pretty sad.

I am terrified of death because of the possibility that there really is nothing afterwards.

The way I think about it is....yes everything I did in life is over...done...but I had fun doing it. I made the most of the time I had. Hopefully people liked me, if not...fuck them doesn't matter much anymore right? But actually I hope that while they aren't "happy" I'm dead, that they also won't be too depressed about it....it's just the way shit is. Move on with your life because your times running out too.

I just accept it as a fact of life....it's weird and I can't expect other people to feel the same way.....some examples...

my grandmother can take alarge spider and squish it between her bare fingers, while I would be freaking out...(I'm not deathly afraid of spiders, but big juicy ones on my bare flesh...eh....give me a medium one and like some 3 ply toilet paper...I'll handle it..otherwise give me a phone book). She probably can't see why I dislike spiders, hell I don't even know why I dislike spiders...probably because my mom used to run around screaming when even a little one came in the room, to my grandma a spider is just a spider unless it's poisonous.

My friend mike probably doesn't understand why I can't just walk up and talk to a strange woman I find attractive and ask for her number, rejection is just a fact of life to him.....

I have a hard time understanding why people are afraid of death...it's just death...that's just part of what makes me who I am I guess..

I'm more scared of having a large spider crawl on me, or ask a girl out then I am of dying. Now I can face my fears...I have asked girls out, and I have had a large spider even jump on my penis when I was getting out of the shower....and I survived to tell the tale hehe. But as often as I confront them it doesn't really get that much easier...

Can I ask you a question Calixte?

Does your beleif in heaven get rid of your fear of death? Or does it still exist?

My assumption is just like I have told myself a million times that a spider is just a spider and there is nothing to be scared of (well there are a couple exceptions heh), that when I go to kill a spider using a tissue, I can do it...but the fear is still in the back of my throat. When the tissue tears and I get the guts on my fingers it creeps me out, when a spider runs around and manages to run up my hand I want to scream....I can contain myself, but no matter what I tell myself...there will always be some level of fear....the question is how much fear does the story I tell myself get rid of?

P.S. No, I'm not on speed heh...I'm just like this...always have been.

Akaran_D wrote:Does the thoguht of going to bed, going to sleep, and never, ever waking up bug me? The thought of all that is ME existing in nothing but people's memories - that's it, good bye, TV is off, show is over, no end credits no music no NOTHING the cessation of ME in all of my forms in who I am all I think and the hardships I have endured mattering for NOTHING, going into the empty blackness but not having a consciousness even to tell that it's there.. not being...

Not being.

Yeah, that bugs me.

A nightmare I can wake up from.
Not being.. there's nothing TO wake up from.

Heh, but your fear of not being will cease to exist when you cease to be....

So yeah you can't wake up from it, but you don't really care because you don't exist...you have no fears to wake up from.

You sound like your thinking about it like a being buried alive scenerio where you think about wanting to be alive, getting out, waking up etc......your dead your not thinking about a whole hell of a lot.

Heaven doesn't really make me more comfortable with death....because the basics of it are similar....you cease to exist on this planet. Life as you know it is over, you only exist in those people memories, there will be no new memories generated regarding you in the minds of your family and friends.

It's not like EQ where when the game is over we can still sit around and chat via VV...heaven isn't like VV as far as I understand it (but admittedly I haven't studied it intensively) to my knowledge your contact with your loved ones ceases.

Some people say you get a another shot in another form....that's kinda neat, I like that idea....but fact is even in those concepts, you cease to be you....your memories are gone, oyu might even be a bug this time around...your big fears might be birds, your not remotely similar to what you used to be....doesnt seem much better then nothingness when you analyze it from my perspective.

In heaven my understanding is no sex, no parties, no beer, *maybe* you run into a friend or two for the most part tho it sounds like solitary confinement. Little wings and a halo or whatnot, I bet that dress is pretty drafty and clouds don't proide much protection from the elements. Probably cold, and I hate harp music...I prefer guitar. And maybe some drums for bass, I like bass.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't even understand what people are looking forward to in an afterlife.....I don't even think they know what they are looking for....the accounts of heaven int he various forms of media seem to be pretty boring....almost nightmareish by some accounts...although hell is always depicted as worse.

I mean whats worse?
A) ceasing to exist
B) being alone, cold, and bored for eternity listening to harp music
C) being re-incarnated with no rememberance of the past

I mean can you watch what's going on down on earth? Do you want to see your body rot? Your wife in love with another man? Your son jerking off to bad 70's porn?

Do you want harp music? Do you want that little gown? Do you want to float in the sky?

What do you want? What do you think your religion is offering you?

Dregor has a good grasp of things it seems with religion and why it exists.

I upset out my humanities teacher in high school who was very religious with my paper titled, "The Fear of Death is what Keeps Religion Alive". I got an A though!

When I ponder the good and bad of religion, I come up with the following good:

-eases the fear of death
-controls the masses
-provides a moral base to prevent chaos
-people seem to use their beliefs for charitable work

the bad:

-religion peddling assmasters...I hate them all! GTFO!
-endless wars over religious beliefs
-corruption, money stealing, molesting
-religion being pushed on others

---------------

The bottom line is that people are scared of dying. People don't want think that all they are is soylent green after death. I can appreciate that. I do wonder about what's out there and if there's anything more to life but that's where it ends. I am open to searching for answers but will not believe something for comfort. Religion is just another form of fiction to me for now.

Pilsburry wrote: I mean whats worse?
A) ceasing to exist
B) being alone, cold, and bored for eternity listening to harp music
C) being re-incarnated with no rememberance of the past

I would rather suffer than "not be".
Besides, pain is a crude way a describing torment. If you are dead you will have no pain receptors, no brain, so how will you feel pain? Can the soul be hurt? Can the soul be killed?
I choose D) Touching the essence of everyone I care for at the same time while determining what exactly my eternity will consist of, as it is up entirely to me.

My view of heaven is a lil bit different bud.
I'm not saying I'm going to end up there.. my life isn't void of regrets.

Right.. my fear of not being will cease when I cease to be. But in the meantime, I've got to put up with it... I'd like to think that there's somthing better that we go to, away from death, pain or woe.. just pure happiness.

And if that's motivation enough for me to be a good person, or try to be, where's the harm in that?

agnostic for two years so far bay bee.

Pils, joo longer winded than any preacher I've seen.

I've never had a problem believing that there is a higher power, but I've never accepted any organized religion.

I'm not sure why it's so tough for people to believe theres something out there with more power than them...

The way I see it, is look at an ant, then look at a human. Humans have more abilities, more intelligence, a higher ability to comprehend whats going on around them, and, if they so choose, the ability to put strict limits on the ant, its life, and what it is and / or isn't able to do. (Ant farm anyone?)

Maybe we're just an ant farm to something much bigger.

Actually winnow will hate to hear me say this, but I agree with him...well except the molesting part...religion doesn't cause that. Some people are just messed up to begin with, a preist can choose to break his rules to molest a small child or have hot steamy sex with 5 of the hottest chcks he has ever seen.

Religion doesn't allow him to do either or influence his decision.

Akaran_D:
There is no harm in beleiving in heaven, jesus, god....and I agree with the majority of rules your religion dictates to it's followers. I think if religion makes you happy, more power to you (unless you try and force it on me, or try and kill me over it, and then I'm going to cut your head off and shove it up your ass).

What I'm saying is I don't understand exactly what you think heaven is or why it makes you happier then nothingness.

Like for example I like to Jet ski.....if heaven was like jet skiing into the sunset on a warm summer day with a pretty girl riding shotgun....you would think I would be happy right? I mean that's an almost ideal way to spend your time right?

Wrong I hate that concept...it's great for an hour, maybe a half day...but then I would get pissy and go postal on that chick and toss her overboard and try and stick my head in the impeller after like a month.

I mean I get bored here...imagine if I could do anything, and nothign ever went wrong....not that I like drama...I hate it, but it's a part of life that makes me realize how much I enjoy the other things.

I mean you could provide me with limitless space and limitless things that make me happy, and the more you provide me with that crap, the less enjoyment I will receive from it.

Then again, I've always known I'm not quite normal...maybe that stuff would make normal people happy.

You know the phrase ignorance is bliss? You ever meet anyone that is really slow on the uptake that thinks everything is honky dory and he has no idea what's going on? Say for example a guy gets in a car accident and his wife picks him up from the hospital, he has major head trama and so he is mildly retarded, he can't remember much of his previous life, but he is happy....his kid is on drugs, his wife is sleeping with his brother, and he has cancer....but he just doesn't know or understand what's going on.

That's my concept of heavenly happiness. I mean is it that I don't care? Is it that I'm too stupid? Is it that I don't know? I dunno....it's just hard to explain, the fact that I know there is suffering on earth, likely with my family and I can't help them out....it would bother me deeply...to know I exist and can do nothing to help except smile and be happy in the face of my childs suffering..that's a nightmareish concept to me.

I am happier with the concept of me just ceasing to exist entirely....because whenever I try and buld a concept of what I think heaven should be like....it has very visible flaws.

I wish I didn't always over analyze things....I wish I could be happy with just a blanket "heaven is great!" statement...but that's not in my nature.

If I could come up with a perfect heaven scenerio, I don't know what I'd do. I mean why be here if I could be there? It's an odd thing to say....but really...if I truly beleived I would go to a place better then the one I am currently in, I would find that depressing. I would essentially be waiting anxiously to die.

Dust- Not only am I normally long winded on forums, but you guys touched on the topic of death and religion, one that gets me going hehe...I had to confront my own death at age 5...it's something I put a lot of thought into since then.

Can I ask you a question Calixte?

Does your beleif in heaven get rid of your fear of death? Or does it still exist?

My fear of death still exists, but the possibility that there is a heaven (and my heaven is pure happiness -being with the people I loved, that would be my happiness) makes that fear bearable.

Pilsburry, the cases of molestation and the church are far too frequent to be chalked up to mere coincidence. Whether it's a matter of people who have that natural tendency tend to be drawn to the church, maybe by their subconcious trying to deal with something their repressing and seeing religion as a crutch, or if the restrictions placed on the clergy sends an unfortunate few down the path of pedophelia, I don't know. But I can't believe it's just a fluke.

And post shorter messages damnit, I read the first paragraph and then stop!

Neziroth wrote:I've never had a problem believing that there is a higher power, but I've never accepted any organized religion.

I'm not sure why it's so tough for people to believe theres something out there with more power than them...

The way I see it, is look at an ant, then look at a human. Humans have more abilities, more intelligence, a higher ability to comprehend whats going on around them, and, if they so choose, the ability to put strict limits on the ant, its life, and what it is and / or isn't able to do. (Ant farm anyone?)

Maybe we're just an ant farm to something much bigger.

But if the ant were to try and draw a larger picture of the way the rest of the world worked, with birds, dogs, cats, humans...how to make us happy so as not to turn the magnifying glass thier way....how accurate a picture would they paint?

If one ant said to the other ants "human's like such and such" would he be correct? And ants are a lot more similar in nature to us then we are to our depiction of god, and our world is closer to an ant farm then it is to heaven.

I mean us and ants, we eat, sleep, breed, we get tired, hungry....do we think gods act the same way? Well I mean...the greeks did...so some religions do...but does your god? How can we assume to understand "god" if one does actually exist? How can we put in in writing as cryptic and odd as the bible which we can't even agree upon it's meaning when it's written in english? Yet we pretend the person who wrote it knew much clearer but just couldn't write it down?

Wouldn't a god who came down and explained how things work to a man...wouldn't he explain it a bit clearer? And on the parts where it is made very clear...when we screwed up, wouldn't the magnifying glass turn in our direction? Like when we say"thou shalt not kill" and then we have years upon years of "holy wars"....if that was my ant farm I'd set the shit on fire and watch it burn.

I mean maybe there is a god, but to pretend we know what it's intents/desires are.....it just seems foolish. I mean would you want me to sing for you? No...you don't...trust me on that one. Do you want me to pretend like I am drinking your blood and eating your flesh? What the hell? That's crazy shit...why would anyone want something like that? If someone ate my flesh and drank my blood, I'd like to forget about it, or kill them....not watch home movies of it every week.

Don't certain things about the bible or common religous practices just make you think "OMG that's some weird shit" ? It;s like the ants didn't quite understand what you tried to tell them through the glass and they got it horribly horribly wrong.

In my post i never once said what this "God's" intentions were, I never tried to describe it, and I didn't because I simply can't.

Going back to the ant analogy - maybe they do sit around and tell stories about this human that owns them, but its nothing more than stories. Personally, I don't believe much of the bible, I don't believe that any person has ever been closer to the "God" than any other person has. I think religious figures (The pope, priests, etc) are nothing but storytellers and showmen.

Religions are groups of people looking for answers who believe these showmen.

Personally I hope that afterlife is the good scene in "What dreams may come"....

Aranuil wrote: I asked one of my atheist friends that question once, and he replied with, "Worms."

I don't remember Aran...was that me?...lol...

I'm Atheist...I have never needed smoke, mirrors, or faith to explain the universe as I see it...

I'll admit it would be convienient at times to be able to blame a "higher power" for my stupidity or sincerely believe that the easter bunny would save me from a mess if I had enough faith...

But I see what I see...

Pilsburry wrote:well except the molesting part...religion doesn't cause that. Some people are just messed up to begin with, a preist can choose to break his rules to molest a small child or have hot steamy sex with 5 of the hottest chcks he has ever seen.

If you've noticed, the religions that seem to have the largest problems with this are the ones that for some reason forbid their ministers to marry (these are christian religions, supposedly following the bible, which nowhere forbids marriage for ministers/priests). So they spend their whole lives with an unhealthy view of women and sex, and surrounded constantly by alter boys. Its not hard to see how things would develop.

I think the bible has been misused and mistreated and misrepresented by just about all christian religions. Taken at face value without "traditions", etc.. it makes a lot of sense. I read some interesting books once that showed how the bible, when it was written, was far more advanced in its scientific refrences than what most of the world was at that time. Things like refering to the world as "hanging upon nothing" and as a "sphere" back when most peoples thought it was flat and sitting on the back of a giant turtle. That and the fact that from beginning to end it spans around a thousand+ years and had 40 some different penmen and yet carries the same theme and never contradicts itself makes me think it was inspired by a higher power.

Worms!

My typical response is similar: 'food for the cherubs.' Personally, I would prefer cremation.

'Fear of death' sums up the reasons why religion still has so much influence quite nicely. A Lot of people who approach old age who werent very religious (if at all) too often seem to "find God" all of a sudden (how fucking convenient can that be?).

The deluded concept of immortality might float other peoples' boats, but not mine. Fearing the cessation of my existence isn't something that is going to drive me into the 'open arms' of some pathetic religion when I'm old and nearing the bucket kicking time.

Atheist. As soon as people realize that prayers don't accomplish shit and they actually start doing something about their troubles, the world will be a better place.

Thats a very poor statment. OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of people pray that doesn't mean they don't take care of there buisness.

I belive In God and I also pray from time to time I don't follow any particular relion in general though. I don't condone people forcing religion on others either. Everyone has the right to choose there own patch and what they belive in. I have many friends that belive in diffrent things and thats there choice.

The only thing I ask when it comes to religion.

Don't try and force your belifes on me because I'm damn sure not gonna try and force mine on you. I wish everyone went by that.

I have had some amazing descussions about religons and I enjoyed other people veiws of things. As long as you can keep an open mind and talk about it rationaly and inteligently you can have some really good and indepth conversations about it.

I believe in a higher power

I do not believe in the church

I believe in reincarnation

I believe in each life we live we have lessons to learn and if we don't learn them we take them with us into the next life with those lessons aswell til we do learn them.

I believe in the power of the mind (to much evidence here to think otherwise)

Not sure on a heaven or hell, I'd like to think there is a heaven but not hell, not sure i like to think of a hell the way most movies show it. Perhaps there is something else

Neziroth,

I didn't mean to make it sound like you knew the answers I was just using your analogy of the ant farm to explain why organized religion is kinda weird to me even if there was proof of a higher power.

Taly if we took our lessons to the next life you wouldn't have to teach most kids not to stick thier hand on a hot stove. Most people learn the more common lessons about life before they die, yet no children are born with an inherant basic understanding of decency, it is instilled in them by thier enviroment aka family.

Agnostic I suppose. There is no God, in my humble opinion. When you die....your dead.

OMG... Im so confused, there are so many choices... What happens if i pick the wrong one? Who will know? What will happen if i die and some one say's "remember on 4-17-03 you posted on VV!!!" okies time to go hide in the hole.

Oreo

Anti-Organized religion for myself but all for it for the masses.

Leading cause of death in the middle ages behind the plague was the catholic church.

Lalanae wrote:No agnostics are fence-sitters. They won't say there is or isn't a God.

though i'm not an agnostic, trivializing this view offhandedly i think is unfortunate. especially because there is no empirical evidence of anything divine, it is not an unreasonable position to take. It gives creedence to the large amount of anecdotal accounts that support religious views while at the same time adopting a healthy skepticism.

i for one think there is no reason to believe in a religion other than you happened to have been socialized within that religion, or you are trying to be cool (white kids who claim to be Buddhists, etc )

The big problem with the question of what happens after death is that there is no possible way to know for sure, until it happens. But then, once you find out, you can't tell anyone.
I think anyone who proffesses to know the answer as to if there is a god is an ignorant fool. Is there a higher power? How the hell do I know? How the hell can anyone know? My feeling is that death comes to us all...there is nothing you can do to stop it. So, why worry about something you can't control?
I forget who said it, but I remember someone saying something to the effect, "I dont know if heaven exists, but I'm gonna assume it does, and try to be good and get there....if it does exist, I'll be happy I was good, if it doesn't, oh well, nothing lost"

Voronwë wrote:

Lalanae wrote:No agnostics are fence-sitters. They won't say there is or isn't a God.

though i'm not an agnostic, trivializing this view offhandedly i think is unfortunate. especially because there is no empirical evidence of anything divine, it is not an unreasonable position to take. It gives creedence to the large amount of anecdotal accounts that support religious views while at the same time adopting a healthy skepticism.

i for one think there is no reason to believe in a religion other than you happened to have been socialized within that religion, or you are trying to be cool (white kids who claim to be Buddhists, etc )

Vor, I'm sorry if you think I "trivialized" the view "offhandedly", but I was simply making it easy for the tards on this board to understand what an agnostic is. I myself was an agnostic for a time, so I am not completely separated on what its like to BE agnostic. Frankly I see them as in limbo, between the ego-satisfying beliefs of religion (a psychological necessity for many) and the understanding of how history, science, sociology, cultural anthropology, philosophy, and psychology all merge to explain WHY mankind invented the idea of a higher power. The question that should be asked in the quest to understand life, is NOT "Is there a God" but "Why is there a God? (in the ideological sense). From the ancients who needed to explain rain to present day death anxieties, why is there a "God" in people's minds?

Although I respect everyones religions and religion has no bearing on who my friends are, it warms my heart to see that 50% of the people here are agnostic or atheist.

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Agnostic I suppose. There is no God, in my humble opinion. When you die....your dead.

That's atheism. If you don't believe in God, you are an atheist.

Athiest, very much so. But, I was raised Roman Catholic, that'll drive anyone away!

Seriously, I had to go to church every Sunday without question. Had to go to CCD classes every week until high school. Then I was free? No, I was able to stop going to CCD because it was a Catholic high school!

When I turned 18, I stopped going to church, and labelled myself an athiest. It wasn't until my mid-twenties that I really *became* one, though. It was always more anti-religion than athiest. I find this is far too common among athiests.

I never knew what an epiphany was until that transition (the intuitive realization kind, not the religious feast kind!).

The following is practially a quote from Dregor only with a political slant instead of a religious one.....

Organized Politics, evolved because of the fears and anxieties of people, yes. It's a tool, used to calm the masses and give them some focus, faith, and a general sense of worth in the world. Some use it to do good in their communities, some use it as a reason to start wars and kill, some use it simply for a crutch. There's many reasons for why and how. I don't believe in organized politics for myself, but I shudder to think of what would happen to the world if suddenly all forms of organized politics disappeared... I don't think the popullation of Earth could handle it.

Honestly, I would have zero qualms about governments except for a few glaring reasons. Corruption in the government is one, it's far more prevalent than most people think, and it's sad that there are those that will prey on the gulliability of others and exploit it. Preaching to those who don't want to hear it is another. Just because you think Democrats are great and how you do things is how it should be doesn't give you any right to tell me that need to think and live that way too.

Your average joe who goes to work every day I have no problem with. I just fear liberals.

It reads mostly the same, and you can easily subistute other entietes for religions and governments. There are many different things man has invented in order to protect himself from himself. In turn each of those has been used for its own purposes. Man is a flawed creature when it comes down to it, we will constantly pervert even the most noble of ideas given enough time.

yeah lalanae i read your post wrong. my apologies

Jesus was way cool.
Everybody liked Jesus.
Everybody wanted to hang out with him.
Anything he wanted to do, he did. He turned water into wine, and if he wanted to, he could turn wheat into marijuana, or sugar into cocaine, or vitamin pills into amphetamines.
He walked on the water and swam on the land.
He would tell these stories, and people would listen.
He was really cool.
If you were blind or lame, you just went to Jesus, and he would put his hands on you, and you would be healed.
That's so cool!
He could've played guitar better than Hendrix, he could've told the future, he could've baked the most delicious cake in the world, he could've scored more goals than Wayne Gretsky, he could've danced better than Barishnakoff, Jesus could've been funnier than any comedian you could think of.
Jesus was way cool.
He told people to eat his body and drink his blood.
That's so cool.
Jesus was so cool.
But then some people got jealous of how cool he was, so they killed him.
But then he rose from the dead! He rose from the dead, danced around, and went up to heaven.
I mean, that's so cool.
Jesus was way cool.
No wonder there are so many Christians.

Jesus Was Way Cool - King Missle

Atheist. Not afraid of being dead as I don't believe I'll have any awareness of it. It is the process of getting there that worries me.

Dalmoth wrote:The following is practially a quote from Dregor only with a political slant instead of a religious one.....

Organized Politics, evolved because of the fears and anxieties of people, yes. It's a tool, used to calm the masses and give them some focus, faith, and a general sense of worth in the world. Some use it to do good in their communities, some use it as a reason to start wars and kill, some use it simply for a crutch. There's many reasons for why and how. I don't believe in organized politics for myself, but I shudder to think of what would happen to the world if suddenly all forms of organized politics disappeared... I don't think the popullation of Earth could handle it.

Honestly, I would have zero qualms about governments except for a few glaring reasons. Corruption in the government is one, it's far more prevalent than most people think, and it's sad that there are those that will prey on the gulliability of others and exploit it. Preaching to those who don't want to hear it is another. Just because you think Democrats are great and how you do things is how it should be doesn't give you any right to tell me that need to think and live that way too.

Your average joe who goes to work every day I have no problem with. I just fear liberals.

It reads mostly the same, and you can easily subistute other entietes for religions and governments. There are many different things man has invented in order to protect himself from himself. In turn each of those has been used for its own purposes. Man is a flawed creature when it comes down to it, we will constantly pervert even the most noble of ideas given enough time.

I disagree. It's not that simple to draw parallels between something like American politics and a religion like the Roman Catholic church. Yes, there's corruption, there's bad people, there's good people, there's exploitation... but one is expected to do it, the other isn't Seriously tho, politics, as much as we'd all like to think it's supposed to be something done to improve conditions for all the people of the Earth, most of the time it boils down to one thing... power. Be it personal power of one politician, all the way to the power of one nation. It's dictated most of modern politics, and spans all the way back through the centuries and civilizations that shaped our world.

A senator gets pegged for bribery, embezzlement, the usual, and not many people bat an eye. A priest gets accused of fondling young boys over a 20 year period, and people feel completely betrayed. Politicians may think they're as close to a god as it gets, but priests are supposed to serve one... hardly the same.

I want a "too lazy to care" option!

I am an dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac.


I stay up all night wondering if there really is a dog.

So basically your drawing a parallel between religion and politics dalmoth? I see that...

Both are just large organizations used to maintain order via fear of ultimate reprisal.

Without them there would be a little more chaos in the world...nice people would still be nice, mean people would still be mean.....the problem is the mean people would not be afraid to say...kill your kid over his shoes...because the only person he would have to be afraid of is you, and he could cap you as well...if noone cared about you then he might ge off scott-free (what the hell does that term mean anyway scott-free? I thought england like dominated scotland for a long ass time).

But using religion then god will come down and punish him, god sees all and condemns you for bad deeds to a afterlife full of punishment.

Using government the laws you violated would be upheld by the other members of the community, and then ultimately end in your incareration aka punishment.

----------------------

Using that kind of tie...you could assume that provided one, the other, or both of those organizations broke down, that we would see a rise of gang membership.....take out my homey and my posse will put a cap in yo ass. You band together in order to assure that someone messes with you that there will be reprisal even if you are unable to do so yourself. It's a preventative measure to insure people don't go there.

You can look inside the walls of the crimal justice system to see some evidence of this....they aren't scared of incarceration, they aren't scared of god.....so they join gangs in hopes that the gang will protect thier interests.

It would be nice if we didn't have to worry about dickheads so we could truly be our own person without having to belong to a larger organization.

Pilsburry wrote:Taly if we took our lessons to the next life you wouldn't have to teach most kids not to stick thier hand on a hot stove. Most people learn the more common lessons about life before they die, yet no children are born with an inherant basic understanding of decency, it is instilled in them by thier enviroment aka family.

actually my own personal answer to this would be thats just curiousity or if u want to make it a lesson then a very trivial one. I am speaking of the more harder lessons in life. Respect for you and others, Love one another and yourself, treating each other as you would want to be treated, so on and so on. Things like this.

The scene in Star Trek when Diana had the child gave the best resean for that. He burnt his finger for the experience of it lol.

Hope that clarified it abit.

Taly GoldenHeart wrote:

Pilsburry wrote:Taly if we took our lessons to the next life you wouldn't have to teach most kids not to stick thier hand on a hot stove. Most people learn the more common lessons about life before they die, yet no children are born with an inherant basic understanding of decency, it is instilled in them by thier enviroment aka family.

actually my own personal answer to this would be thats just curiousity or if u want to make it a lesson then a very trivial one. I am speaking of the more harder lessons in life. Respect for you and others, Love one another and yourself, treating each other as you would want to be treated, so on and so on. Things like this.

The scene in Star Trek when Diana had the child gave the best resean for that. He burnt his finger for the experience of it lol.

Hope that clarified it abit.

curiosity
you
reason
a bit

I've gone too long, repressed too much, not to finally speak out!

secular humanism

Look it up all you way cool anti-religion folks. Atheism breeds the most selfish people there can be, I mean, why not fuck over anyone and everyone while you pass through life? The Godless have no reason to listen to that little voice in the back of their head, whatever you attribute that "voice" to no one can deny it's there. Yes it's a generalization. Yes it holds true to the majority.

Bash religion all you want, it has it's blackeyes just like *any* social construction out there. Don't ever forget though, that despite the negatives that are prevalent in all religions and all governments, there has never been an atheist to better this world like any one of the Saints have. No matter what you believe, it's extremely ignorant to label religion itself as a cause of strife in the world when it is, in fact, one of the greatest motivators for doing good that has ever existed.

<--- Christian (as Thess likes to point out )

My parents are Lutheran, my grandparents are Catholic, but I was raised in a Baptist education system. I believe denominations today can be a bunch of crap for the way they battle each other for which way is the "right way." We are all on the same side people!

One night I was working a Christian concert at our local minor baseball stadium. 2000 Christians were there, and I have never in my whole life been treated like shit as I did that night. I swear those people there were damn hypocrits. I'm not saying every single person there was, but everyone single person I had to deal with was.

Have I lost faith in the religion? No.
Have I lost faith in the community of the religion? Yes.

My old co-worker put it best:

Why should I have to go sit in a building that a man made, and listen to a man tell me how I should worship God?... When I go sit under a tree that God made, and talk to him personally.

People don't need a fear of\belief in god to have morals or decide between right and wrong. Society and our families imprint values on us, religion is just part of that social system. An athiest family can bestow those same values onto their children (ie. thou shall not kill..., forgiveness, etc) as well as or better than a priest. Good people will do good regardless of religion.

im agnostic, and go to the point of saying i do not believe anyone should be a part of an established religion just becouse of all the evil, war, mass murders etc brought about by religion

I like to believe there is an afterlife, weather there is 1 supreme god or just a neverending cycle is unclear, athiesm and science throw me off from being atheist due to science cannot explain a beginning, becouse if everything was pure logic, the universe would just be nothingness, and would always be nothingness, but there is life and emotion etc...
Im playing around with the fact that there is no defined god, but no beginning or end to life, that we always were and always will be in one form or another with our own "soul" or whatever it may be called, weather we can remember our past and future, or that time itself does not exsist

its a bigass mystery and a question i try to solve all the fucking time, my biggest fear is becomming nothingness when i die

Rekaar. wrote:Atheism breeds the most selfish people there can be, I mean, why not fuck over anyone and everyone while you pass through life? The Godless have no reason to listen to that little voice in the back of their head, whatever you attribute that "voice" to no one can deny it's there. Yes it's a generalization. Yes it holds true to the majority.

That's not even close to being an accurate statment in my experiences. All of the atheists I've encountered have been fine people. Religion is a source of morals and values but not the only source by far. I've found atheists to be free thinkers with open minds. Just because atheists don't believe in a god doesn't mean they have no morals.

We do wear less polyester though and sweat less.

Rekaar. wrote:secular humanism

Look it up all you way cool anti-religion folks

.

When did religious indoctrination or lack thereof become an indicator of cool?

Rekaar. wrote: Atheism breeds the most selfish people there can be,

Atheism doesn't breed selfish people, selfish people breed selfish people

Rekaar. wrote:I mean, why not fuck over anyone and everyone while you pass through life?

Odd that you ascribe this motive to myself when it is clearly foremost in your mind. I dont fuck everyone over because I ascribe to a social contract with the rest of the folks out there...read some Locke man..

Rekaar. wrote: The Godless have no reason to listen to that little voice in the back of their head, whatever you attribute that "voice" to no one can deny it's there.

The "Godless" don't have little voices in the back of our head...people who hear voices we like to call..."Psychotic"...

Rekaar. wrote: Yes it's a generalization. Yes it holds true to the majority.

It holds true to the majority of the human race and is about as prevalent in both the religious and the non-religious.

Rekaar. wrote: Bash religion all you want, it has it's blackeyes just like *any* social construction out there. Don't ever forget though, that despite the negatives that are prevalent in all religions and all governments, there has never been an atheist to better this world like any one of the Saints have.

Errrrrmmmm let me think Polio Vaccine, eradication of smallpox...

Rekaar. wrote: No matter what you believe, it's extremely ignorant to label religion itself as a cause of strife in the world when it is, in fact, one of the greatest motivators for doing good that has ever existed.

I dont deny that religion can be and is a force for good in many cases...It has also motivated wars, inquisitions, persecution...

It is ignorant to ignore that data which does not fit your model...look at both sides and think before you post...

Bah Doubled...

on the contrary, more people have been murdered in the name of religion and god then with any other justification, religion is one of the greatest evils in this world, imho
more then 3/4ths of wars in the history of the earth i am almost sure have been in the name of religion

one of my favorite quotes from chris rock in dogma "dont have faith, it doesnt do anything but mess things up, just have ideas, ideas you can change"

Xzion wrote:on the contrary, more people have been murdered in the name of religion and god then with any other justification

So true!

Legenae wrote:

Xzion wrote:on the contrary, more people have been murdered in the name of religion and god then with any other justification

So true!

While I'm on the Atheist side of the arguement I disagree with this generalization...Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao are responsible for more human deaths among them than all other non- "natural" causes...And they were killing for non-religious reasons...Looks to me like "political affiliation" is in the lead followed closely by "racism"...at best religion is a distant 3rd though I think greed would probably outstrip religion as a cause too...

Overgeneralization kills...