VeeshanVault

Lalanae wrote:I hated the 80's, and not just because my adolescence spanned the decade. It was a very materialistic decade. The celebratory spirit of the 70's and the deepening self-consciousness of the 90's were far more enjoyable.

The deepening self consciousness of the 90s that brought us:

The dot com bubble in the stock market;
CEO's getting rich off of worthless stock options after marketing their company's stock instead of producing real returns;
The constant influx of sex and violence on TV;
What the meaning of the word "is" is;
The blowjob becoming acceptable for early teen sex;
The discovery that everyone lies so its ok;
The utter corrupted cesspool that our legal system has become;

I could go on and on.

The 90's are only another stop toward the societal cesspool that America has been becoming since (some people argue) the 1960's - I think it probably goes back much further - more than likely to the late 1910' or early 1920's.

Whatever the case on the societal debate, saying that the 90's was an age of the discovery of self conciousness is completely laughable.

I think many people confuse "disaffection" with "deepening self consciousness."

Yes, society is a cesspool, but you don't have to do anything to help fix it, just bitch constantly. Yes, your parents were a generation of self-indulgent hippie fuckstains, so you should pierce every available flap of skin to show them.

Yes, you are a beautiful and unique snowflake, just like everybody else.

Mezzmor wrote:

Lalanae wrote:I hated the 80's, and not just because my adolescence spanned the decade. It was a very materialistic decade. The celebratory spirit of the 70's and the deepening self-consciousness of the 90's were far more enjoyable.

The deepening self consciousness of the 90s that brought us:

The dot com bubble in the stock market;
CEO's getting rich off of worthless stock options after marketing their company's stock instead of producing real returns;
The constant influx of sex and violence on TV;
What the meaning of the word "is" is;
The blowjob becoming acceptable for early teen sex;
The discovery that everyone lies so its ok;
The utter corrupted cesspool that our legal system has become;

I could go on and on.

The 90's are only another stop toward the societal cesspool that America has been becoming since (some people argue) the 1960's - I think it probably goes back much further - more than likely to the late 1910' or early 1920's.

Whatever the case on the societal debate, saying that the 90's was an age of the discovery of self conciousness is completely laughable.

Your examples do not SPEAK OF AN AGE, but only of the issues which you personally seem to think is a problem now. Think abstractly and objectively, if you can wade through your Reagan-cock-sucking morality.

The 90's was a time when the ills of the previous decade were explored and condemned. Look at the music of the 90's. You can always see a reflection of an age in its artists and musicians have become modern man's most accessible artist. The grunge trend was a revolt against 80's shallow materialism. Also, in the 90's environmentalism became a big social concern, implementing changes on all levels. Equal rights with homosexuals were finally being tackled. People were less concerned with being rich and "fitting in" and more concerned about unity and individual expression. The 80's (unless you were punk) were about "fitting in" and "keeping up with the Joneses." It was the decade of Yuppiedom. Also, look at the movies of the 80's and the values portrayed.

The 80's (unless you were punk) were about "fitting in" and "keeping up with the Joneses."

Was never really "punk" but I certainly never fit in

I think I was in that grey area between goth and punk.

Xyphir wrote:"Girls Just Wanna Have Fu-uhn" - Cindy Lauper
"We Built This City" - Starship
"We're Not Gonna Take It" - Twisted Sister
"Red Red Wine" - UB40
"Hungry Like the Wolf" - Duran Duran
"Relax" - Frankie Goes to Hollywood

Couldn't put together a best list. Excellent.

Two Tribes - Frankie Goes To Hollywood.

Thanks Lalane for verifying what I knew all along - that when confronted with debate that the left can't handle they resort instead to name calling and tearing down the opposition.

Lets discuss your post in depth.

"if you can wade through your Reagan-cock-sucking morality. "

I have never sucked President Reagan's cock.

"The grunge trend was a revolt against 80's shallow materialism"

Funny, there were a lot of people who dressed this way. I thought it was a passing fashion trend.

"Also, in the 90's environmentalism became a big social concern, implementing changes on all levels"

If by this you mean, the environmentalism that has:
Robbed countless ranchers in the western US of their land, in the name of "keeping them pristine for our future generations" (with a KEEP OUT sign);
Burned up a huge chunk of the US forests with wildfires caused by rampant underbrush being left to dry and ignite on our "pristine government (now) owned land, which is not cared for or maintained, just left in a "pristine" state (meaning - no evil men allowed)
Forced recycling programs on us that, while they feel really good, do absolutely nothing for the environment, suck resources, and in many cases actually do more harm than good to the environment;

There are many books about the subject of "environmentalism" that counter your belief, although I admit to reading both sides of the environment debat If you care to actually engage in debate I would love to sometime. I can give you some books to reference on the subject:

The Skeptical Environmentalist: Measuring the real State of the World, Bjorn Lomborg (sp?)

A great wesbite : http://www.stewardsoftherange.org

Lever Action, by L. Neill Smith
The Ballad of Carl Drega - Essays on the Freedom Movement, by Vin Suprinowycz

Both of the above books have thought provoking chapters on the environmental movement.

"Equal rights with homosexuals were finally being tackled"

Well, this is great. Instead of doing what common sense would dictate - enforcing the laws on the books, government created yet another minority class. I would just bet that the gay community thanks you for that...now, instead of being chosen for a job based on merit, they will be part of the "quota" that employers just gotta have to avoid the feds from reaming them. Now, when a homosexual is murdered by some backwoods nimwit KKK wannabe who thinks he or she is doing God's will by ridding the world of the inherent homosexual evil, we prosecute it as a "hate crime", rather than linking up the DNA evidence, prosecuting the perp for murder 1 and sending them on the fast track to old sparky.

And, prior to the argument of how would my cracker ass know about how gays feel, I will tell you, my wife is a black woman of west indian descent, who runs the state program that provides money for AIDS patients in this area. One of my groomsmen in my wedding was a gay man.

"People were less concerned with being rich and "fitting in" and more concerned about unity and individual expression."

I refer you to my earlier post. By the way, it isn't morally wrong or inherently evil to aspire to have wealth or desire nice things - and it certainly isn't wrong to work however many jobs you see fit, or open a business and employ people and make money to obtain this goal. It is wrong to pump your stock price and dump the options, inflate earnings, hide losses, lie on your general ledger, file bankruptcy and pull the golden parachute cord while the commoners (the employees and the stockholders) are left holding the bag.

Its a shame that a generation of people has been taught that everyone lies, its ok.

What values are portrayed in the movies of the 90s? Are you referring to Pulp Fiction? Something about Mary? American Pie? Are these movies that much more wholesome than the R rated movies of the 80s? I enjoyed all of those movies I mentioned from the 90s...I found them funny, and found just as funny the people who left the theatre during Mary and Pulp Fiction in disgust. Please don't tell me that the movies of the 90s were more wholesome than the 80s. What is on the movie screens, TV and radio is a progression of what society permits over time. Is it not OK to question why this stuff is acceptable to society today when it wasnt 50 years ago? And, is it truly contributing to the overall lack of substance and values in American society today?

what I remember, and like, the most:

Avalon - Roxy Music
Sweet Dreams - Eurythmix
Billy Jean - Michael Jackson
Relax - FGtH
Private Dancer - Tina Turner
Purple Rain - Prince
We are the world - USA for Africa
Money for nothing - Dire Straits
Brothers in arms- Dire Straits
Jump - Van Halen

Culturally - Material Girl.

Consumption was definetly the big thing in the 80s. Fads came and went every week it seemed.

Musically - Video killed the radio star.

What's So Funny 'Bout Peace Love and Understanding - Elvis Costello

Arborealus wrote:What's So Funny 'Bout Peace Love and Understanding - Elvis Costello

Or the rest of Cocktail's soundtrack.

Zamtuk wrote:

Arborealus wrote:What's So Funny 'Bout Peace Love and Understanding - Elvis Costello

Or the rest of Cocktail's soundtrack.

What is Cocktail?...

Tom Cruise movie on which that song (among others) is found.

BTW: How come no one as said shit about Micheal Jackson? Thriller et al. was very symbolic of the 80's.

Zam, I don't think that song's on the Cocktail soundtrack.

1. Wild Again - Starship
2. Powerful Stuff - The Fabulous Thunderbirds
3. Since When - Robbie Nevil
4. Don't Worry, Be Happy - Bobby McFerrin
5. Hippy Hippy Shake - The Georgia Satellites
6. Kokomo - The Beach Boys
7. Rave On - John Cougar Mellencamp
8. All Shook Up - John Cougar Mellencamp
9. Oh, I Love You So - Preston Smith
10. Tutti Frutti - Little Richard

Grosse Pointe Blank! Now that was a good movie & soundtrack.

1. Blister in the Sun - Violent Femmes
2. Rudie Can't Fail - The Clash
3. Mirror in the Bathroom - The English Beat
4. Under Pressure - David Bowie
5. I Can See Clearly Now - Johnny Nash
6. Live and Let Die - Guns N' Roses
7. We Care a Lot - Faith No More
8. Pressure Drop - The Specials
9. Absolute Beginners - The Jam
10. Armagideon Time - The Clash
11. Matador - Los Fabulosos Cadillacs
12. Let My Love Open the Door [E.Cola Mix] - Pete Townshend
13. Blister 2000 - Violent Femmes

Mezzmor wrote:Thanks Lalane for verifying what I knew all along - that when confronted with debate that the left can't handle they resort instead to name calling and tearing down the opposition.

I can handle you and your conservative moral drivel, thats obvious. I didn't call you "a name" but I did call your beliefs "a name" *gasp* for emphasis. Its a common tool used in debate here, if you haven't noticed. Besides its not like I said "You r gay" and nothing else. So who fucking cares, dipshit (There, you can accuse me of name-calling now). You are trying to make this into a list of things that happened in the 90's that were "bad" instead of comparing the cultural ideologies of the 2 decades.

I have never sucked President Reagan's cock.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm sure everyone here assumed you actually did suck his cock and you set them straight.

"The grunge trend was a revolt against 80's shallow materialism"

Funny, there were a lot of people who dressed this way. I thought it was a passing fashion trend.

huh? You need to pay attention to life around you a bit more. Grunge wasn't just clothing, it was also a mind set most expressed in the music. It was a very anti-materialistic movement. It was a movement that dominated youth culture, which in turn defines the flavor of an age. The only difference with the youth culture dominating the decade's voice/vision/flavor is the Baby Boomer's who because of their sheer masses, also affect cultural direction. The Boomers in the 90's were dealing with entering their 40's, a time when people start confronting mortality. After their years of working frantically in the 80's, the Boomers began to settle down and stop obsessing about money and start thinking about fulfilling their personal desires and dreams, paying better attention to how they treat their bodies and families. This and the anti-materialistic youth culture defined the individualistic (that's what I mean when I say "self-conscious" ie conscious of the "self") yet socially concerned 90's.

If by this you mean, the environmentalism that has:

There you go again mixing your personal politics into an objective analysis of the social consciousness of 2 decades. I'll say that your ideas have been nicely spoonfed to you since you brought them up. You right-wingers are so fucking defensive everytime someone brings up the environment (among other things actually). If you want to play propaganda trading games with someone else, fine. My point was that the environment became a forefront of social interest in the 90's while it was not in the 80's. Even if you don't agree with the methods, its better than not caring at all.

Well, this is great. Instead of doing what common sense would dictate - enforcing the laws on the books, government created yet another minority class. I would just bet that the gay community thanks you for that...now, instead of being chosen for a job based on merit, they will be part of the "quota" that employers just gotta have to avoid the feds from reaming them.

What quota? Don't make shit up.

Now, when a homosexual is murdered by some backwoods nimwit KKK wannabe who thinks he or she is doing God's will by ridding the world of the inherent homosexual evil, we prosecute it as a "hate crime", rather than linking up the DNA evidence, prosecuting the perp for murder 1 and sending them on the fast track to old sparky.

Once again personal politics.

And, prior to the argument of how would my cracker ass know about how gays feel, I will tell you, my wife is a black woman of west indian descent, who runs the state program that provides money for AIDS patients in this area. One of my groomsmen in my wedding was a gay man.

How important for you to point out how decent you are for associating with minorities. That completely changes my opinion of you...

By the way, it isn't morally wrong or inherently evil to aspire to have wealth or desire nice things - and it certainly isn't wrong to work however many jobs you see fit, or open a business and employ people and make money to obtain this goal. It is wrong to pump your stock price and dump the options, inflate earnings, hide losses, lie on your general ledger, file bankruptcy and pull the golden parachute cord while the commoners (the employees and the stockholders) are left holding the bag.

HUH? I never use the word "evil" unless in complete jest because it is a flimsy word that has religious connotation first of all. Second of all I never said it was bad to *make* money, just to be obsessed with materialism. Focus. Focus. This is about social ideologies of 2 particular decades. Think abstractly, if you can.

Its a shame that a generation of people has been taught that everyone lies, its ok.

What??? Where is that coming from? "Its OK to Lie" was NOT some mantra of the 90's. You are pulling that out of your own personal belief. It is not a reflection on society.

What values are portrayed in the movies of the 90s? Are you referring to Pulp Fiction? Something about Mary? American Pie? Are these movies that much more wholesome than the R rated movies of the 80s? I enjoyed all of those movies I mentioned from the 90s...I found them funny, and found just as funny the people who left the theatre during Mary and Pulp Fiction in disgust. Please don't tell me that the movies of the 90s were more wholesome than the 80s. What is on the movie screens, TV and radio is a progression of what society permits over time. Is it not OK to question why this stuff is acceptable to society today when it wasnt 50 years ago? And, is it truly contributing to the overall lack of substance and values in American society today?

YOU are about "values" a word conservatives love to throw around meaning "what WE think is good and right and what Jesus would approve of." I think sexual expression is a positive. I'm sorry you were so offended by the humor in Something About Mary to walk out. being hung up on human sexuality you call a "value," but most people call it a shame. Besides sexuality and violence in entertainment was not a 90's thing. Its been evolving for decades. It was worse in your precious Reagan years than in the 70's. So you have no point to make.

When I think of the '80's I think of Reagan. Thusly, "Proud To Be An American" by Lee Greenwood.

When I think of the '80's I think of Reagen. Thusly, 'Where Is My Mind' by the Pixies.

Too Drunk to Fuck - Dead Kennedys


;P

Have you heard the new Frank Black crap? I loved the pixies, but most of his new stuff blows.

I have always been partial to Whip it by Devo

I clearly need a lesson in VV debate. My debate class in high school taught me to have facts to back up my supposition. I can see from Lal's posts that an opposing point of view, or facts to back it up, is intolerable for this forum.

what facts have you brought to the table in this discussion?

Mezzmor:

The Skeptical Environmentalist: Measuring the real State of the World, by Bjørn Lomborg isn't really a book you should refer to as a source.

Lomborg presents no evidence, skewers statistical information to suit his needs and attempts to "debunk" rational arguments using emotional discourse.

His book is at best an interesting commentary on environmental policies and the processes that shape them; at worst it is a deliberate attemt to falsify information and present it as truth.

Oh, interestingly enough he was found guilty in bad scientific conduct by the Danish Council of Sciences.

Video Killed the Radio Star


forget who its by

Living on a Prayer - Bon Jovi

Walk Like an Egyptian - the Bangles

And the late 80's it was all about Guns n' Roses.

Taly GoldenHeart wrote:Video Killed the Radio Star


forget who its by

The Buggles...which is basically Geoffrey Downs & Trevor Horne

Humfrey wrote:I have always been partial to Whip it by Devo

GNOME!!!

Girl U Want much better Devo song......

In the Air Tonight - Phil Collins

However I gotta add my voice to those expressing that Devo is excellent.

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:Oh, interestingly enough he was found guilty in bad scientific conduct by the Danish Council of Sciences.

do those crazy fuckers still worship the moon?

Just on mondays, wednesdays and fridays. Unless of course a Holiday conflicts

The 90s were just as materialistic as the 80s it just became unfashionable to show it.

Frankie's "Two Tribes" would be my pick. So easy to forget that the world lived under the shadow of MAD in those days and the affect that had on peoples' consciousnesses. Even the materialism of the era was partially fuelled by a "live for today cos tomorrow we could all be radioactive dust" mindset. Like pretty much all of the mind-boggling excesses of the last 50 years.

Dregor Thule wrote:When I think of the '80's I think of Reagen. Thusly, 'Where Is My Mind' by the Pixies.

Pixies : Doolittle

One of the best albums of the 80s.

Lalanae wrote: The 90's was a time when the ills of the previous decade were explored and condemned. Look at the music of the 90's. You can always see a reflection of an age in its artists and musicians have become modern man's most accessible artist. The grunge trend was a revolt against 80's shallow materialism. Also, in the 90's environmentalism became a big social concern, implementing changes on all levels. Equal rights with homosexuals were finally being tackled. People were less concerned with being rich and "fitting in" and more concerned about unity and individual expression. The 80's (unless you were punk) were about "fitting in" and "keeping up with the Joneses." It was the decade of Yuppiedom. Also, look at the movies of the 80's and the values portrayed.

You watched way too many movies. Just how old were you in the 80's anyhow?
You are comparing parents of the 80's to kids of the 90's and when you do address the kids of the 80's, you're taking it from movies. Just stupid really.
Sorry you think there was some other thing going along with grunge, but it was fashionable to be that way.
Environmentalism was big in the 90's ehh? You mean the decade of 40 mpg cars was less environmentally sound than the over-sized 12mpg pieces of shit we refer to as SUV's
Keeping up with the Joneses? I don't know about your town, but subarban sprawl became a problem in New Jersey in the 90's, not the 80's. Sorry, but your perception of what was materialistic is way off.

some we're forgetting:

Axel F - Beverly Hills Cop Soundtrack
Safety Dance - Men without Hats
Centerfold - J. Geils Band

Lalanae wrote:The Boomers in the 90's were dealing with entering their 40's, a time when people start confronting mortality. After their years of working frantically in the 80's, the Boomers began to settle down and stop obsessing about money and start thinking about fulfilling their personal desires and dreams, paying better attention to how they treat their bodies and families. This and the anti-materialistic youth culture defined the individualistic (that's what I mean when I say "self-conscious" ie conscious of the "self") yet socially concerned 90's.

My point was that the environment became a forefront of social interest in the 90's while it was not in the 80's. Even if you don't agree with the methods, its better than not caring at all.

That is a total and utter crock of shit. There is nothing correct about that over-generalization of either decade.

Lalanae is completely correct in saying that environmentalism become a much larger forefront in the 90s vs the 80s. Sure you can argue till your blue in the face that the environment is still fucked up, but it's still not going to prove that socially people were more aware of our environment in the 90s vs the past. Items off the top of my head are as follows:

- Largest turnout for "Earth Day" was in the 90s
- The recognition of chlorofluorcarbons (basically aerosol hairspray) as a contributant to the greenhouse effect
- Recycling became a large boom (paper, glass, plastic)
- Stringent laws on vehicle emissions
- Preservation of existing aquifers
- Water conservation
- Waste minimization
- Agricultural pollution control
- Hazardous waste treatment
- Solid waste reuse and recycling

A majority of the above listed didn't even have treatments for these or recognition that there were problems with these until the 90s. That is all.

All of your examples except your Earth Day comment (which I have no freaking clue about) was a movement that began in the 80's or earlier. I re-read them twice and , yes, I repeat, all of them.

Actually, all these movements really began in the 70s with the creation of the Environmental Protection Agency if you choose to be so technical.

The point being though, all of these movements hit their largest boom in the 90s. Thanks to the Reagan era, we saw a reduction...yes, a reduction in environmental awareness due to his budget cuts of agencies that did not prove to be fruitful. So, in turn, by 1984, the EPA staff cuts totaled 29% and budget cuts were 44% via the Executive Order 12291, issued February 17, 1981. What does this mean for you and me? Well that means we had very little funding to even come to the realization of how to diminish any of our environmental "problems." Not to mention we didn't have any funding to even design methods of proper treatment. So yes, socially environmental awareness was not at it's all time high in the 80s as it boomed in the 90s. If you'd like to do a comparison, count the number of environmental organizations we had in the 80s vs the 90s. Better yet, count the number of lawyers who now specialize in environmental law.

Social environmental awareness is the whole point with regards to this thread. As far as implementation goes, a lot of that has do to with the government and you're certainly not going to get me to say that I believe Reagan was a strong supporter of such programs because I know it's not true.

Environmental programs are all a matter of funding. Environmental awareness is not. The jab was that such awareness was poor in the 80's because people were, supposedly, more self-centered than the 90's. I contest that is a crock of bullshit.

Chidoro wrote:Social environmental awareness is the whole point with regards to this thread. As far as implementation goes, a lot of that has do to with the government and you're certainly not going to get me to say that I believe Reagan was a strong supporter of such programs because I know it's not true.

I'm not sure where you thought I was trying to convince you that Reagan was a supporter of environmental concerns... if so, he wouldn't have cut EPA's budget so, no?

I found a nice little link on one of our largest social organizations and it had a nifty little comparison of the 80s vs the 90s.
http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/who_we_a ... neties.cfm

You can read it how you want to, but my comprehension tells me we did a whole lot more in the 90s.

Now as far as us being self-centered in the 80s. It was cool to wear fur coats in the 80s (I wore a gorgeous white/gray rabbit) and my mom had a crocodile purse/shoes (before it became illegal to have those in the 90s). Self-centered my ass. People could give a rats ass on what killing endangered species did for the environment, as they were more concerned with what the Jones's were wearing and trying to keep up with them. Madonna really reflected the 80s best in this statement, "We are living in a material world.."

The desire to have bigger and better cars/homes was on fire in the 90's. A whole boatload of people were dancing around in the stock market thinking that they knew something. Everyone was living high on the hog.

Actually, the 90's material wants made the 80's look like a decade of humble saints. It's not even close really.

"I Want A New Drug" Huey Lewis and the News

That song on the Grand Theft Auto: Vice City TV commercial

Recently heard on tv commercials (nooo!)

Alphaville
Modern English

Come on, where are all the hair bands? That was where it was at in the mid 80's.

Master of Puppets - Metallica
Dokken - In My Dreams
Ratt - Round and Round
Winger - Seventeen
Whitesnake - Still of the Night

Come on, lets get some of the metal and hair bands represented.

(and no, I did not like all the bands listed, I am putting them up to elicit discussion. However, Metallica in the 80's could not be beat).

Adel, I'm going to kill you for calling Metallica a hair band.

Well, they werent lacking in the hair department were they? I know they arent a hair band but they fit within the genre that hair bands were in.

Hmm...

Back in the day i used to pop-lock with our samoan crew against boogaloo shrimp that starred in the "Breakin" movie at various local niteclubs in Long Beach, Carson, etc

It was crazy....we'd alll be mad dogging each other from opposite sides of the crowd like about to fight bigtime in a riot..

BUT....

one would suddenly break out on the dancefloor and call the other crew out...Then we'd all go at it with our specialty moves...

Unlike today....

Songs of the 80' i liked:

I'll stop the world and melt with you - forgot who sang that
Hungry like the wolf - Duran Duran
Any song by Depeche Mode
Tainted Love - Soft Cell
Come on Eileen - Dexy's midnight runners
No parking on the dancefloor - Midnight Star
So rough So Tough by Roger & Zapp
5 minutes of Funk - Whodini
Let the music play - Shannon
Nasty Girl - Vanity 6
Erotic City - Prince

Any song with a cool beat to freak chicks on the dancefloor LOL

Samoseus

Samo-

"Melt with You" by Modern English

Music you can grind to is indeed the win!