VeeshanVault

Lalanae wrote:And yes, they are heroes. They risk their lives NOT WITH THE INTENT OF KILLING OTHERS, but with the intent in peaceably furthering the human race. THAT is a bigger hero in my book.

Exactly.

Yup

I think this was a horrible event, but I believe NASA has a very good track record. Three major accidents in what? Almost 40 years?

I think NASA does a great job with their limited budget, and people pulling the strings who are clueless (ie. Congress). Hopefully, the government will allow private industry to take over eventually.

Budget cuts are keeping us from a better vehicle. Budget cuts made the ISS useless (three people needed to run the place + three person crew = noone to run scientific tests). If private industry where up there, they would have a moonbase by now. Sure, there would be Holiday Inns, McDonalds, and a Walmart or two, but it would be there. But, best of all, the money wouldn't come from taxpayers, so it wouldn't get sucked out for some pork project.

As for why we need to send people up there. Two reasons:

One, this planet won't be livable forever. If we don't move out into space, when the planet goes, we go with it. If that happens, then everything we ever did, or will ever do is for nothing.

Two, we have an enormous population problem. It's getting worse, and people are completely unwilling to stop having kids. So, we need more room, and there's going to be no more here very, very soon. Overpopulation means not enough food, not enough jobs, not enough places to live. You can't just throw money at that problem, it does nothing to help it, much less solve it.

There are plenty of other reasons, for it. I can't think of one reason against it. The only negative thing is people may die, but they will die if we don't try, too......

Bratly's wealth of ignorance astounds me.

Well I think the real tragedy is that they pretty much died for nothing. NASA needs to stop sending those 30 year old shitboxes up into space so a bunch of astronauts can study the effects of frog embryos and frozen cookie dough in zero gravity and fucking ground everything so they can concentrate the money they get into researching the next generation of space vehicles with the intent on actually exploring something new.

I don't give a rat's ass about the first left handed non-smoker jewish baritone doctor in space. Hi there we've been in orbit before about a million times, can we spend some money on trying to do something new? The last time I was excited about anything NASA was when they sent that little unmanned remote control car to Mars. How about focussing our money on sending people there now instead of spending a trillion dollars on launching archie comics into space to see if they are any funnier in zero-g?

Exactly.

kyoukan type-R wrote:The last time I was excited about anything NASA was when they sent that little unmanned remote control car to Mars. How about focussing our money on sending people there now instead of spending a trillion dollars on launching archie comics into space to see if they are any funnier in zero-g?

There is a scheduled manned mission to mars in 2018, this is not exactly a trip across the sandbox. It's in motion, demanding too much too fast "How about focussing our money on sending people there now" and more accidents will happen.

Sending a person to mars is and will be the pinnacle of human scientific achievement up to that point. A trillion calculations have to be precise. There is no margin for error when you are millions of miles from the planet.

Call me insensitive, but I don't understand why this is a tragedy. A space shuttle blew up. That's expensive, but you know, losing money doesn't bother me too much. 7 people died. That's too bad, and I certainly feel bad for their families and everything, but guess what: thousands and thousands of other people died yesterday. The vast majority of them didn't get reported upon, let alone have flags flown at half-mast for them.

You can call these guys heroes all you want. I call them gifted people doing a pretty fucking neat job.

Some people have told me "it's not that the people died, it's that the deaths were avoidable, and that's why it's a tragedy." Guess what: Lots of people die avoidable deaths every day. If we expended some of the fucking energy we're using mourning these particular 7, maybe we could get some food to some starving people and the next batch of avoidable deaths that no-one gives a fuck about could be avoided. But no, those people aren't 'heroes,' they don't have glamorous jobs, and they weren't all fortunate enough to be born with physical and intellectual gifts.

For that matter, someone explain to me why the Challenger was such a tragedy. I was 2 when it happened, so I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert on the national mood, and for all I know there could have been circumstances that made it bigger than this. But the way I see it, some people died and some equipment was lost, and the situation was no different than the Columbia.

I live in the north, so I don't really see the space program, and it doesn't have much of a personal effect on me. One of my high school teachers was involved with NASA and an alternate for the Challenger mission, and that's the extent of my involvement.

Anyone have any answers?

Again, the space program is arguably the pinnacle of Human scientific achievement, so when you have an accident, it's major news. These people are pioneers, and space is our future, whether you agree with that or not. One day the human race will be bouncing around the solar system, and godwilling outside of the solar system.....and we will owe this huge leap in human achievement to these guys and gals that make the near impossible seem mundane.

For that matter, someone explain to me why the Challenger was such a tragedy.

Those of us who saw it and were affected by it know why it was such a tragedy. For others who don't understand or who weren't around it's hard to explain. It's just one of those moments in your life you'll always remember. What happened to Coumbia was a shame but it doesn't affect me like Challenger did. Maybe it's because I've been through something similar before or maybe things like 9/11 have made me more jaded.

One of the main problems with Mars, is it takes 3 months or so to get there. That's a long time for the crew to be sitting around. Plus, you have six months travel time, then however much time on planet. That's OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of food and water.

So, you need a ship big enough for exercise equipment, room to walk around (if it's going to have a rotating section), a years worth of food. A decent amount of water, and reclamation equipment. Portable living quarters for on the planet, rovers, test equipment. Never mind all the damned fuel. Then, you need a sizable crew of flight personel, scientists, and maintenance people.

We just don't have anything on the table big enough to make the trip. Nor the ability to lauch such a monstrosity. Actually, it would have to be assembled in space, which the shuttles would still be needed to do. So, I guess we should keep them around. I don't see how NASA is going to pull this off without the help of private industry (maybe they will have it, I haven't followed it much).

I guess what I'm getting at, is it's OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS easier to "sell" the shuttle program come budget time....

Krimson Klaw wrote:There is a scheduled manned mission to mars in 2018, this is not exactly a trip across the sandbox. It's in motion, demanding too much too fast "How about focussing our money on sending people there now" and more accidents will happen.

Sending a person to mars is and will be the pinnacle of human scientific achievement up to that point. A trillion calculations have to be precise. There is no margin for error when you are millions of miles from the planet.

so shitcan flights into space until 2018 *shrug* that way they can focus all of their budget money into research. I mean does anyone give a flying fuck what NASA does on their orbital shuttle missions? I bet 3/4 of the people crying tragedy didn't even know there was a shuttle in space.

Sueven wrote:Call me insensitive, but I don't understand why this is a tragedy. A space shuttle blew up. That's expensive, but you know, losing money doesn't bother me too much. 7 people died. That's too bad, and I certainly feel bad for their families and everything, but guess what: thousands and thousands of other people died yesterday. The vast majority of them didn't get reported upon, let alone have flags flown at half-mast for them.

You can call these guys heroes all you want. I call them gifted people doing a pretty fucking neat job.

Some people have told me "it's not that the people died, it's that the deaths were avoidable, and that's why it's a tragedy." Guess what: Lots of people die avoidable deaths every day. If we expended some of the fucking energy we're using mourning these particular 7, maybe we could get some food to some starving people and the next batch of avoidable deaths that no-one gives a fuck about could be avoided. But no, those people aren't 'heroes,' they don't have glamorous jobs, and they weren't all fortunate enough to be born with physical and intellectual gifts.

..........

Anyone have any answers?

My apologies if this was quoted here once already, in scanning the thread I did not see it, however I recall reading this in the last day or two concerning this tragedy. Sueven, your points, although valid in a way, also neglect the importance of space exploration in the coming centuries.

J. Michael Strazynski wrote: Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu, Einstein, Morobuto, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars.

This quote is just as true now, as it was several years ago when it was written, and as it will be in a hundred or even a thousand years. The job that the people of NASA undertake is perilous beyond compare. The breadth of human space exploration is limited to the last 50 years only. 50 years of experience, that holds the potential for knowledge that will bring the solutions to our social problems.

We have limited resources on this planet. Everyone has different ambitions and dreams for what their lives are meant to accomplish. Who are you to judge what some of the most gifted people choose to do with their lives. Just as you wish to have the freedom to make choices of your own, allow for the same privalidges of others.

I won't allow myself to go any further into this, as I feel it will constitute a diatribe that most will find overbearing. The people who died in that tragic accident were brave heroes of humanity. They were the best and brightest of America, India and Israel. Their scientific experiments were meant to bring important steps in medicine, herbology and far more beneficial scientific fields. The loss of the lives for overweighs the loss of the data, but it is possible that something that was lost yesterday could have brought the end of a plague, or brought food to the hungry. Don't be so quick to trivialize the cost of space missions, in both dollars and lives. The progression of humanity is not linear, but rather depends on the work of millions of people, in millions of progressions, and at the cost of millions of other alternatives.

(I apologize for spelling mistakes, I'm too tired to spell check, and too exhausted to know the difference.)

kyoukan type-R wrote:

Krimson Klaw wrote:There is a scheduled manned mission to mars in 2018, this is not exactly a trip across the sandbox. It's in motion, demanding too much too fast "How about focussing our money on sending people there now" and more accidents will happen.

Sending a person to mars is and will be the pinnacle of human scientific achievement up to that point. A trillion calculations have to be precise. There is no margin for error when you are millions of miles from the planet.

so shitcan flights into space until 2018 *shrug* that way they can focus all of their budget money into research. I mean does anyone give a flying fuck what NASA does on their orbital shuttle missions? I bet 3/4 of the people crying tragedy didn't even know there was a shuttle in space.

I actually think this is a good idea, at least cease all missions into space that do not have a direct purpse for the manned mission in 2018.

I don't think it's a good idea myself. That almost assumes they're not doing anything worthwhile when they go up there now. Here's a good link showing what Columbia was doing those 16 days. You don't think any of those experiments would have uses to us down here (or have benefits to long-term space travel such as to Mars in 2018)? The people that say we're wasting time and it's all a bunch of cock-waving have probably never bothered to actually look at what we're doing up there.


http://spaceresearch.nasa.gov/sts-107/index.html


Granted, not every space-shuttle mission did this much research but I doubt they were sitting around playing poker. Do some research and you can find fact-sheets for just about most of the missions.

funneling all of the programs efforts into one mission - one extremely challenging mission - would be foolish in my opinion. I hope Mars does happen, but there is so much to do in between now and then, you can't just take tunnel vision approach. that marginalizes NASA in the political sphere, and makes it easier for their funding to be messed with in changing political tides.

the sympathy and support we feel right now, for the most part, wont be around in 2010, and NASA will have to be justifying their budgets with results.

we can't even get Federal Budget cuts guaranteed past 2010, i can tell you for a fact taht scientific research budgets won't be guaranteed through 2018.

kyoukan type-R wrote:I bet 3/4 of the people crying tragedy didn't even know there was a shuttle in space.

Yup. If not more than that.

The space program is an extention of our dreams.

Dreams that resonate in our bones.

It gives flight and manifests what before was only in our mind.

It takes our dreams and lets us touch the stars.

Whenever this dream made real falls from the sky, it hurts us.

It hurts us because as it linked our dreams to reality, it also linked the horrors of reality to our dreams.

and that a hurt that's hard to shake....

Zamtuk wrote:

kyoukan type-R wrote:I bet 3/4 of the people crying tragedy didn't even know there was a shuttle in space.

Yup. If not more than that.

Who the fuck cares if they knew a shuttle was up? Everyone doesn't keep track of all space activity...that doesn't mean they don't care. Your arguments are weak.

***If*** Jacques Cousteau died while researching undersea life (yes, I know about his son...stfu) and we didn't know where he was at the time...would we feel any less hurt if you respected his work? Pathetic. (that was an example freaks..don't hijack this into another topic or get into a debate over the life and times of Couseau) We all have a lot on our minds but it doesn't mean we don't care.

Not to mention all that useless research they do on space mission has resulted in some pretty neat shit down here on earth.


"What good is a newborn child?"

When you can answer that question, then you can may feel qualified to question space-borne research.

Until then you are just flapping your gums.

Fallanthas wrote:Not to mention all that useless research they do on space mission has resulted in some pretty neat shit down here on earth.

like what

Adex_Xeda wrote:The space program is an extention of our dreams.

Dreams that resonate in our bones.

It gives flight and manifests what before was only in our mind.

It takes our dreams and lets us touch the stars.

Whenever this dream made real falls from the sky, it hurts us.

It hurts us because as it linked our dreams to reality, it also linked the horrors of reality to our dreams.

and that a hurt that's hard to shake....

One day you'll eventually come out of that closet and admit you're gay.

Seriously, wtf was that last message? Are you trying to come off as some eloquent poet? Or is that what you really think?

Here's what I think.

Space is our future, but most "politicians" are too nearsighted to see that. When a disaster such as this happens, it's effects resound two-fold. Once, due to the loss of life. Twice, due to the loss to the endeavour. It's sad that the space program will suffer for this, when it should be redoubled.

Another harsh blow for NASA.

kyoukan type-R wrote:

Fallanthas wrote:Not to mention all that useless research they do on space mission has resulted in some pretty neat shit down here on earth.

like what

Like this.

ooh shit space pens i had one of those.

I guess some of my assumptions on their research (because I don't know the reasoning for some of their experiments any more than any one else posting here) are along the lines of Neroon's response, in that any kind of deeper exploration, be it to Mars, someplace else, or even for semi-permanent orbital platforms, will require a complete self sufficiency of a scale that is unknown to us. If it takes 3 months one way, do you pack food, or grow it? what about the airsupply: is it regenerated through plants are totally contained? Hell we don't know what the long term effects of low-g environments will be on the crew (unless the Russians feel like sharing what they have found from their cosmonauts). The closest we have now is the research outposts in places like the South Pole, and they are still somewhat accessible. Some of the experiments on "frog embryos", etc are probably (again I admit speculation) first stage research.

Add this to experiments/observational data they gather on things like weather/climate patterns. Hell, in Canada the great debate on greenhouse gas emissions and the governments declaration to ratify the Kyoto Accord has shown that for all we suspect on that issue, there are tons we don't know.

Can some of this be done via un-manned missions on "conventional" rockets and satellites? Probably. But some will still require crewed missions if they ever want to progress into what applies directly to humans in space. As Kyou pointed out: the remote vehicle on Mars was cool shit, but the next step is sending people there...

i dont think we are racing against the sun burning out as much as we are racing against ourselves destroying our own planet. we will run out of recources OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS sooner than the sun is going to explode or burn out

Specifically, Kev, you're probably right. However, the point holds just as much truth. If we don't find new resources, or the technology to produce more resources, the end result will be the same.

I ran out of honey nut cornflakes this morning. should I be building a rocket?

But what are the chances of our Governments actually doing a thing about it?
From what a lot of us see, our Leaders arent so much concerned about that far in the future. Hardly anyone is, people take the view,
"Its not going to happen in my life time."
And thus, future generations get fucked up the ass because of it.

kyoukan type-R wrote:

Fallanthas wrote:Not to mention all that useless research they do on space mission has resulted in some pretty neat shit down here on earth.

like what

Like Tang. (Joking with that one. Sorta.)

And velcro. (Not really. But everyone seems to believe that one.)

And rechargeable batteries.

And lazy people who don't bother to take 2 minutes to find out for themseleves.

You can even license some of their patents if you want to come up with your own applications. This one I found rather interesting

http://technology.nasa.gov/scripts/nls_ ... P9-39;0;1)

And who couldn't use an inflatable pole!

http://technology.nasa.gov/scripts/nls_ ... P9-91;0;1)

(I think the parens are messing up the link. Oh well)



http://technology.nasa.gov/scripts/nls_ ... SuccList()

http://technology.jsc.nasa.gov/docs/spin00.pdf

Lots of neat stuff in those.


Interesting:

"Work on the Space Station extends beyond building the actual structure. Johnson is working on assembling the X-38 Crew Return Vehicle, which is intended to serve as an emergency “lifeboat” for the crew of the Space Station. Successful flight tests of the X-38 have been conducted at Dryden Flight Research Center, with more planned for the future. Johnson is to complete assembly of the X-38 in time for a space flight test scheduled for 2002."

kyoukan type-R wrote:I ran out of honey nut cornflakes this morning. should I be building a rocket?

Well, yeah, but that's because no one likes you.

lots of people like me.










ps: pound sand you stupid fag.

I cant stop looking at that fucking banana

kyoukan type-R wrote:lots of people like me.










ps: pound sand you stupid fag.

hehe.






On a side note, a story about 7 students who died in an avalanche in BC was relegated to page 10 so they could have another 8 pages coverage of this space shuttle disaster.

Yeah Goddamn those Americans.

Space shuttle astronauts = doing there job, in space, our future

Highschool student avalanche victims = skiing



Yeah, I don't get why they don't have as much attention from the media.

Without NASA, my plans for an evil moon base will never be realized!!!1!!

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Yeah Goddamn those Americans.

Space shuttle astronauts = doing there job, in space, our future

Highschool student avalanche victims = skiing



Yeah, I don't get why they don't have as much attention from the media.

That's pretty fucked up, man.


And what the hell does this have to do with americans?

miir wrote:

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Yeah Goddamn those Americans.

Space shuttle astronauts = doing there job, in space, our future

Highschool student avalanche victims = skiing



Yeah, I don't get why they don't have as much attention from the media.

That's pretty fucked up, man.


And what the hell does this have to do with americans?

Ummm, hello sarcasm.

Dregor,

I feel something. I only know one person who works at NASA, an old friend. Even though I'm disconnected from those people, the loss of that shuttle struck a nerve. Rationally I can't explain it.

Have you ever tried to put words to an emotion? Have you ever tried to describe a feeling that doesn't have a name?

I was trying to describe why people who have nothing to do with NASA other than taxes were taken back by its loss.

Am I trying to be a show-off poet? Nope, I don't pretend to be that talented.

I'm just trying express in words what I think the connection is between the event and the seemingly disconnected people who were affected by it.

I'm pretty sure Miir reads Canadian papers mostly or at least that is what he is refering to. I am also going to go out on a limb and say that the shuttle accident doesnt really need 8 pages in a Canadian newspaper where I would think the loss of 7 Canadian (more then likely) deaths would be a fairly newsworthy story in Canada.

Dregor Thule wrote: It's sad that the space program will suffer for this, when it should be redoubled.

Another harsh blow for NASA.

Wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 3Feb2.html

good to hear that Krimson.

One thing i would say regarding the "what has the space program done for us/me?". Basically without the shuttle the Hubble Telescope would not have lasted more than a few months (there was a problem with it on arrival to orbit, that the shuttle came up and performed maintainance on). Quite a bit of very good science has come from this device.

science like that where we continue to take great leaps in our understanding of the history and physics of the universe is worth much more than the billions that were spent to give us the power to make these observations.

Here's a link for the Asshats who think we are wasting money....


http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/facts ... 05-HQ.html

the link above wrote:The telescope also helped astronomers realize that the universe may be destined to expand forever and may even be accelerating.

that is not trivial information in my view.

Yea, it sucked to think we were trapped in a multi-galactic trash compactor.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... eport_dc_2


"what's that? we're not safe? fuck you! pack your shit and get out, you're fired"

Adex_Xeda wrote:So fierce is the pentality for imperfection. I don't see how those NASA guys could stand it, day to day.

How do they deal with such pressure?

At a guess, those who feel the pressure probably never get there, or don't last too long. Same with military maintenance folks, pilots, submariners, etc.. For most it's probably just a job, albiet a very exacting one.

The fact that we've lost as little as we have over the last 20 years when there's so little margin for error is a testament to QA and redundancy.

Space is the future period. As for grounding future space launches until 2018 are you fucking nuts Kyoukan? Ya let's leave those billion dollar satellites up there for another 15 yrs and let em fall apart. Fuck fixing them, what purpose do they serve anyway.

I think Adex did an admirable job of explaining why some people feel this was such a tragedy. Our future is in Space exploration. It is kind of depressing to know that we can still make mistakes even though every precaution is taken to ensure the safety of the astronauts. It is a reminder of how far we still have to go.

oh which broken sattelites did they fix?

Hammerstalker PE wrote:I think Adex did an admirable job of explaining why some people feel this was such a tragedy. Our future is in Space exploration. It is kind of depressing to know that we can still make mistakes even though every precaution is taken to ensure the safety of the astronauts. It is a reminder of how far we still have to go.

I agree with all of this. I also agree with Kyoukan. The experiments performed in space damn well had better matter.

This is a tragedy to be sure. Took me back to the 6th grade when my teacher walked into the classroom and told us that the space shuttle had exploded, and we all thought he was joking. Sadly he was not. Is it a tragedy? Yes.

The people and the equipment are the very best we as human beings can put together and we can still fail. I'm glad to see a budget increase for NASA proposed. Where that money is going to come from is anyone's guess, but to me this represents our future and it would be a shame to see it tossed by the wayside.