VeeshanVault

I had forgotten all about those greaves... yes that was one of the few blinding moments when I said to myself, I should have taken the tag or left long ago... When he called me on the phone he told me, as he did you, that it was his son playing rather than him and apologized. Frankly I couldn't believe it when it happend because IMHO if it haddn't be for myself (not an ego thing, just a listening thing) and Voronwe (at least from an officers council standpoint) many things wouldn't have held together as long as they did. Don't get me wrong, as Adex said, he and MANY other people did what they could to keep things going and people happy too. Adex eventually took an officers position to help as well but saw the light before we did and decided to make the game fun again for himself.

It's interesting that I was telling someone in a PM the other day the exact same thing Voronwe was alluding too in his message... think of who all was in Soverign, 90% of them were in OG at one time or another and even together at one point. I think Soverign showed everyone what potential OG could have had if things had been managed different. I, as a leader, have to take some of the blame for that as I will always believe that if I had taken action earlier things would have been different...

While I spoke with Gak about joining Soverign and comming back to EQ I never made it back. However I did jump online and chat a few time and it was great to see all the cool things my friends were accomplishing. I was luckly enough to join Ixtlan and for a short time because I couldn't commit to both, Sovereign Alliance in WoW.

As I said I'm glad for my time in OG because of all the great relationships formed there. And I love to see all those people still having fun today in different guilds and different games. I'm playing EQII right now with a bunch of old OG folks and RL friends and loving it. Sometimes we will bring up an incident like we have in this thread and just sit back and laugh...

Marb

Voronwë wrote: As i like to remember it though, i think the cool thing is that in spite of all the nonsense, a bunch of us landed in the same place again, and it was a lot of fun.

Yeah, the Legion --> Sovereign reunion was nice. While Celestial Tomb was fun and successful, there was still plenty of drama. Legion/Ixtlan (Sovereign) kept that to a bare minimum as the leadership with Gak and #2 (that would be Samila!) along with the other officers, kept things running smooth as silk.

Gaklek took his time about letting new members into the guild. I remember for a long stretch in Legion, Kittenne was the only new member added. Quality control helped a lot. Compare that to Elex/Moogy and his ridiculous re-adding of that father/son combo that kept getting booted by officers. I can't remember the name atm but someone will post it. While in CT, anyone and their mother could get a tag for awhile (Roger, even after several members continually told the officers he was an idiot, Dakmura, (loot whore and continuted to pile on loot even after the fake pregnancy plea for money from other members thing)

I think Voronwe nailed it without saying it outright. Moogy destroyed OG with his inability to lead but it was as much the fault of the rest of OG for putting up with it for so long. At the same time, we had the great Etain leading raids while two boxing on another EQ server. Sweet.

Winnow wrote:

Voronwë wrote: As i like to remember it though, i think the cool thing is that in spite of all the nonsense, a bunch of us landed in the same place again, and it was a lot of fun.

Yeah, the Legion --> Sovereign reunion was nice. While Celestial Tomb was fun and successful, there was still plenty of drama. Legion/Ixtlan (Sovereign) kept that to a bare minimum as the leadership with Gak and #2 (that would be Samila!) along with the other officers, kept things running smooth as silk.

Gaklek took his time about letting new members into the guild. I remember for a long stretch in Legion, Kittenne was the only new member added. Quality control helped a lot. Compare that to Elex/Moogy and his ridiculous re-adding of that father/son combo that kept getting booted by officers. I can't remember the name atm but someone will post it. While in CT, anyone and their mother could get a tag for awhile (Roger, even after several members continually told the officers he was an idiot, Dakmura, (loot whore and continuted to pile on loot even after the fake pregnancy plea for money from other members thing)

I think Voronwe nailed it without saying it outright. Moogy destroyed OG with his inability to lead but it was as much the fault of the rest of OG for putting up with it for so long. At the same time, we had the great Etain leading raids while two boxing on another EQ server. Sweet.

MM was the best... cleric... ever...

Mountainman

LOL

I remember losing all faith in OG's recruitment policy when Moogy guilded Corpmann because "we need clerics".

Well I can tell you guys that much like many of us, Etain was getting fed up with stuff too but wanted to try to make things work. Which is why he was 2 boxin' on another server wasn't a good idea... but...

Ah this thread is bringing back some fun memories though!

Yea I think Gak did a great job with Sovereign, like he is doing in WoW as well. When I didn't play for a while we had a long talk about leadership one night in WoW. I was truly impressed with everything he said. In EQ I knew Gak had the makings of a great officer and GL but I never saw it. During our talks in WoW I could tell he truly cared for what they were creating and how, just like in RL, perception can hurt or help etc... was very impressed! At the same time I will always remember this big nekked lvl 7 or 8 troll standing outside guk. Seeber had just won a sword he couldn't use so he gave it to Newbie Gak, you would have though it was the greatest gift ever! which at that point in EQ.. it was a pretty damn nice sword. I've always felt that in some way, Seebs helped to solidify Gaklek MMORPG addiction!

Marb

Marbus wrote: The stuff I'm talking about in my post is that a number of people in full ToV armor, pretty much the 2 top groups in OG, left almost immediatly after getting their armor because they said Moogy treated someone unfair... regardless of all other OG drama and where I fall or fell on it I call bullshit on that. If those people TRULY cared about the guild and someone being "fair" then they wouldn't have left. Do you see my point? Their arguement to leave was that Moogy was greedy but yet they did something far worse to those who helped them. When Aslanna or a few other people left at a time it was different... sure tempers flaired for a week or sometimes not at all... but the leaving of those top two full ToV groups pretty much ended OGs raiding and kept everyone else from getting their armor.
Marb

I was royally pissed at Moogy because of that. I hate corruption, and I called Moogy on his BS after he did that. His response was then to boot me from the guild. I never left OG. My OG friends (who also happened to be most of the hardcore raiders at the time) must've realized how big of a douche Moogy really was that night. That's when we formed VI, which merged with Legion, which merged with Ixtlan, and made Sovereign. A lot of us in Sovereign have now been playing together for 5+ years.

You see treachery where we see dissent. Sometimes the only way to get rid of corruption is to establish a new government.

Marbus wrote: The fact that these people wouldn't talk to the OG officers and wouldn't even give me a chance to try and get the GL tag, not saying I could have for sure or not, before forming their own group to partner with others for bigger and better things shows where their loyality lay. Not with those who helped them, but with themselves. Some would say "it's only a game, get over it - we are all out to win" sure... that's fine but don't act like something someone else did that wasn't on the moral up and up actually bothered you. Just be honest and move on.

We obviously have different views on this. I was an officer of OG too at the time of this incident. As an officer, I saw it as my responsibility to look out for the interest of the guild and it's members. So, when this blatant abuse of power occurred, I spoke up -- as you should have, Marbus. Instead, Moogy got you to announce the award of the robe to his gimp. Good going. You're a nice guy, Marbus. Maybe too nice in that you let Moogy walk all over you. You became nothing but his lapdog and yes-man.

For all your raving and ranting on the Current Events forum about the corruption of our current administration, you still seem very willing to throw your support behind a corrupt leader and a corrupt sytem. After all these years, you still have blinders on. I did what you didn't have the moral courage to do. I spoke up. For that, I was deguilded. The only other person to leave that night was Samila -- because we're RL friends. We had no intention of forming our own guild at the time. But, as more and more of our friends started leaving OG, we knew that we all wouldn't all be able to get in to the same guild. So, we decided to form our own small guild of friends. We decided to model ourselves after Legion -- who at that time was known as a guild who was able to do good things with small numbers. We knew nothing of what was happening in Legion at the time. It wasn't til over a month later that Gaklek approached us about raiding with them.

You're insinuating that because Moogy's corruption didn't bother you, it couldn't possibly have bothered us. That says a lot more about you, and it's pretty shameful.

Mountainman and Madcazter, two very special people, i'am glad I never have to encounter again.

I remeber Moggy Deguilding me because I was pissed at him hording all the loot , Everytime he degulded me Regnad would Reguild me.

Yeah! Regnad was like "pwn moogy" during that merge. I remember lots of clashing, it wasn' a good merge. What guild was that again? OTB? I cant remember anymore.

mountainman.

Everyone remembers MM the fireman, but who was his son? The druid? His name started with a S mebbe? Mountiankid?

i can't even imagine how retarded his kid must have been

Gnomies wrote:Mountainman and Madcazter, two very special people, i'am glad I never have to encounter again.

Well said indeed.

MM WTF? I could never believe that guy was an adult, he was acted like a retarded 4 year old. And thats an insult to retarded 4 year olds.

Madcazter was a good guy. He was just too loyal for his own good.

Nilaman wrote:Madcazter was a good guy. He was just too loyal for his own good.

He was a really good guy, couldn't concieve that Moogy could do wrong though.

Someone told me he died a couple years ago.

Nah. MC is/was playing WoW on bloodhoof in the guild Obsidian Guard. His health remains an issue, and I haven't seen him for a while now. I think he's in court trying to get millions of dollars for malpractice or some such from a previous doctor.

Nilaman wrote:Everyone remembers MM the fireman, but who was his son? The druid? His name started with a S mebbe? Mountiankid?

its coming to me...

Specc, something like that?

Lisandre I do thank you for your opinion but as you said we see it two different ways. This is what I saw and experinced... perhaps some of it is incorrect...

When I came back and started raiding, which I had been for 2 or 3 months before the incident. Moogy haddn't pulled any "corruption" stuff as you are talking about. Sure there had been incidents in the past but nothing that seemed too out of place. I mean all you guys in the pull group had been getting prefencial treatment. Yes you were there almost all the time but so were a lot of other people as well who weren't getting all the stuff you got - you didn't seem to mind "corruption" (your words not mine) then. Moogy, the guy was on 24/7 almost and I don't remember anyone there who had been in the guild very long needing that robe. Perhaps I was wrong about that but I had no way to verify that at the time.

What you did was to leave, on a seeming moral high ground, then choose to recruit a new guild and build your own power base while leaving those who weren't fully ToV armored. You "called" Moogy on something that from my perspective and that of MANY other people at the time - you had been doing yourself by getting all the stuff you got. You call them "friends" well that's all fine and dandy but it's very interesting that 90% of those "friends" were the ones you needed to make VI a viable guild. You can tell everyone on this board that they left but I know for a fact that you and others were spreading some truths and some lies to get them to leave OG. Why? because some of those who left were talking to me first about what you were telling them. Some of it was true, and I was hearing it for the first time, some of it was bullshit though. I'm sure it's purely concendential that your "revelation of morality" happened once you had all your equipment.

Now in regards to your jab at me on corruption, unlike you I didn't abandon everyone once I was fully equipped but rather stayed to investiage what was going on. Some of that information, as I noted earlier, I got from people who left for VI. It took a couple of months but after being back a while I was able to verify some of shit Moogy was actually pulling. Voronwe and I spoke about it, Etain and I spoke about it, MC and I spoke about it. I approaced Moogy about rumors, what I had been seeing etc... His answer was to threaten to deguild me as well. I tried to change, hell I even think I asked for the GL tag. Once I knew I did try to change the system rather than running away but couldn't.

At which point I think Voronwe left and I left a day or so later myself. Moving my characters to Fluffy Bunnies. So no, I'm not still defending Moogy today.

So in a way, your actions helped me to see what had started going on in OG. From what I have heard it only got much worse after I left with Moogy not even letting officers award stuff when he was offline unless they called him. So yes, when I was able to verify the corruption, I too hung my hat up in OG.

Which is all I was asking for from you guys was to give me time to figure out what was going on. From the people I talked to you guys were trying to tear everything down I had helped to build and you wouldn't explain everything. Who knows, if you had, I might have just left with you then if I haddn't had to get all my information second hand and spend another 2 or 3 months figuring out you were correct.

I always like you Lisandre and you will notice that in all my posts I never called you out by name but rather spoke of the incident. I will call a spade a spade when I see it, but I also know everyone can fuck up and diserves a little leeway from time to time. I also knew when was going on in Moogy's personal life so I was trying to give him a few extra chances. Eventually I realized that I was wrong about that and if you had read more than my first couple of posts in this thread you would have known that before you tried to belittle me in your post.

Yea I am a nice guy, as you said sometimes too nice but I also won't put up with lies and bullshit when I see it. I was told one thing from VI members and something opposite from my guildmates who were being recruited (some of whom actually joined you guys then.) Say what you will we both came to the same conclusion, it just took me longer. Which is why I didn't name names.

The perception from you guys wasn't explained and the perception from the guys in OG was exactly opposite in many cases. I try to weight both sides and be just whenever possible. That is what I did then, and what I will continue to do. In regards to the current political climate, it should speak for itself. Go back and look at my posts there as well. You will see that I gave them the benefit of the doubt as well for a very long time.

Who knows... maybe my whole perception of that event was wrong Lisa. As I said I always liked you but didn't really know you so I couldn't put a lot of faith in what you were saying when I was hearing different from long time friends (not Moogy). What made the real difference for me to start thinking that some of the stories I was hearing held more water than I knew was Banban... whom I did know, and knew what kind of person he was. If you will remember, it was then that I stoped trying to find out any more info from you guys... I started building my own. Perhapse if we had sat down and spoken about this years ago we wouldn't have needed to lash out on the VV... but most importantly you have heard my feelings now, I have heard yours. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in between and perhapse we can move on since we do agree the end result of all those people working together was a pretty great thing.

Marb

Marb, Lisandre's post is dead on in my opinion. Hell at the time i tried to talk Lis, Sam, Xorg and a couple others out of it - to find some way to mediate it. In retrospect, probably mostly because i knew if they left, i needed to leave to. So it was good in that regards in the end

Marb you shouldnt look at it as an endictment of you. Lisa, Sam, the others did more than their share to equip others in every guild they were a part of from my experience.

There were 2 reasons that OG failed. #1 the leader and #2 the rest of us for letting it happen.

How in the world would you plan to save it? Moogy had a tight leash on officers.

Would you all tell him changes needed to be made? You know his response would be to deguild you and then call you on the phone to cuss and scream.

Moogy was never going to change. He was living too well off the guild.

One time around early PoP I got a look at all the crap the guy had on just the Moogy/Elex account. Fungi's, mana robes, CoFs, mosscovered twig, full kunark armor if available, a ranger in full rubicite, anything and everything that was considered rare/no longer dropping, all high end dropables as well as the best of the best twink gear.

If someone ever hacked his account with intent to strip it of items, they would be in real good shape. I'm sure a lot of guild leaders out there have skimmed a little off the top, but there is no way he got all that crap through being an honest guild leader who just got lucky with a few drops. His account was a treasure hoard.

The only way to change OG would be to get a new leader, and that wouldn't happen. You would need to form a new guild to get away from him.

Marbus wrote: When I came back and started raiding, which I had been for 2 or 3 months before the incident. Moogy haddn't pulled any "corruption" stuff as you are talking about. Sure there had been incidents in the past but nothing that seemed too out of place. I mean all you guys in the pull group had been getting prefencial treatment. Yes you were there almost all the time but so were a lot of other people as well who weren't getting all the stuff you got - you didn't seem to mind "corruption" (your words not mine) then. Moogy, the guy was on 24/7 almost and I don't remember anyone there who had been in the guild very long needing that robe. Perhaps I was wrong about that but I had no way to verify that at the time.

Since we weren't using DKP, there was no reliable way to keep track of who was next up for loot. However, I was there for 99% of the raids. And most of the people who got their armor got it because they were there for most of the raids. You wouldn't know, of course, since you were hardly ever there.

What you did was to leave, on a seeming moral high ground

I didn't leave. Moogy kicked me out of the guild.

You "called" Moogy on something that from my perspective and that of MANY other people at the time - you had been doing yourself by getting all the stuff you got.

There is a HUGE difference between getting stuff on your main, and getting it for your gimp. If he had gotten an item for Moogy instead of Elex, I wouldn't have said anything since it was his main, and we weren't using DKP. But to award that item to a gimp over a deserving main?

You call them "friends" well that's all fine and dandy but it's very interesting that 90% of those "friends" were the ones you needed to make VI a viable guild.

Yes, they were. A lot of them were also former members of GoV. So, I had been playing with them for years at that point. And, I'm still playing with some of them to this day.

You can tell everyone on this board that they left but I know for a fact that you and others were spreading some truths and some lies to get them to leave OG. Why? because some of those who left were talking to me first about what you were telling them. Some of it was true, and I was hearing it for the first time, some of it was bullshit though. I'm sure it's purely concendential that your "revelation of morality" happened once you had all your equipment.

What are the lies I supposedly told? They asked me why I left the guild. I told them the truth. That I didn't leave. I told them what happened. And, I had been in my ToV armor for a while, and was still there for every raid.

Now in regards to your jab at me on corruption, unlike you I didn't abandon everyone once I was fully equipped but rather stayed to investiage what was going on.

I was kicked out. I didn't leave. How many times do I have to repeat that? I questioned Moogy, and he kicked me out. I didn't abandon anyone. And, for someone who had been gone a lot, you undeservedly got awarded the armor that you did get, but I didn't question it because you were a main, and, like I said, we weren't using DKP.

So in a way, your actions helped me to see what had started going on in OG. From what I have heard it only got much worse after I left with Moogy not even letting officers award stuff when he was offline unless they called him. So yes, when I was able to verify the corruption, I too hung my hat up in OG.

It didn't "start" going on. It *had* been going on. We weren't the first wave to have left OG. I just didn't realize it til I became an officer myself.

Who knows, if you had, I might have just left with you then if I haddn't had to get all my information second hand and spend another 2 or 3 months figuring out you were correct.

You should've talked to me. The only person I wouldn't talk to at that point was Moogy.

Nilaman wrote:Nah. MC is/was playing WoW on bloodhoof in the guild Obsidian Guard.

That's good to hear, might reactivate for a month just to bug people .

Lisandre it looks like my understand of events was wrong. Obviously the biggest mistake is that I understood there was a fight, you were going to leave and Moogy did it for you.

There was a lot going on with me at that point as well personally. My father had passed away the year before I looking back there is a long time I wasn't myself. (which might explain why I let so many things slide that normally I would have stopped).

I'm not sure who said it but they are right, how could I have stopped it. There way no way I was ever going to get Elex to step down, that was a pipe dream. By not following a rule I try to always live by this has been harboring with me for years.

As I said, we eventually came to the same conclusion and you guys leaving did help me come to that decision as well. I do aplogize for not checking with you first. Most importantly, as I said in another post, it was great to see a lot of people who were in OG at one time do so great in another guild with different leadership. And believe me, I do consider myself partially responsible for not leaving or giving an ultimatum earlier to force change... but as I found out when I did leave, it wouldn't have mattered if I did. Perhapse the best thing, especially for my EQ enjoyment, I should have left with you guys rather than trying to save a dead horse. No matter what people were telling me. I felt it was my obligation to verify as much as possibly what the truth was. Looking back I didn't get it until I left myself and didn't get all of it until now.

Thanks!
Marb

Lisandre and Samila are two of the most patient people I ran into in EQ. That late into Elex/Moogy's bullshittery, you shouldn't have questioned quality people like Lisandre and Samila leaving over yet another Moogy screw up.

I find it amazing that Voro, Lisa, Sam and others stuck it out that long with Etain and Elex making decisions. You guys must be the type that never get divorced IRL too! : )

You should have been out the door at, Elex: "I reguilded MM for the 4th time"

Honestly I didn't really know Lisandre nor Sam that well. I knew they were friends of BB but you have to understand that there were other good people who did feel betrayed. Looking back over the years after I left I'm sure that plus my ability to play savior played a big part in my decisions at the time. I thought I could control and make right anything that happened... I couldn't.

Since then I haven't crossed nor ever spoken about this because I just wanted it behind me. As I said, I eventually did learn the truth in the way Moogy was acting.

Because I haven't even brought it up nor asked anyone about it, I didn't know Lisandre's character except from that experience. While I may have been mistaken I do remember attempts to talk about this back then that were ignored... being an online game though there are many explinations for that.

From the past 4 years I've never seen any cause to bring it up and all of the posts / discussions I have had with Lisande have been like it never happened which is why I didn't call any names when the topic arose.

Based upon the past 4 years of experience plus the fact that I do value the opinions of numerous people on this board, it looks like I made a mistake. Perhaps I knew that all along and that is why I went here on this thread was to validate that, who knows.

What I will say in finality on this topic, but not necessarly on the thread, is that I do apologize to Lisandre, Samila and anyone else for many things in relation to that incident and hope we can move on, possibly playing together in another game in the future. My regret is that because of what happened I was never able to build that relationship in the past and come to this realization sooner.

Sincerely,
Marb

My cooking is to 300 in WoW Marb .. I'm sauteeing you some crow.

I'll serve it cold Lisandre

well Winnow, in my defense it was fun to deguild mountainman. I know i did it at least twice

As someone who joined after Lisandre and Samila and Xorg and all those people, I must say it was obvious right away that not only were they more skilled at leading than Moogy, they were way more fun.

I remember one time after a raid they needed a tank for Chardok, since no one was available they took me (think I was like 55 at the time). I had more fun that night crawling around Chardok with skilled, fun, nice people that most of my experiences in EQ. Even when the night ended badly (wipeout while dividing loot) it was still ok. Plus they logged me on and CR'ed me the next day while I was at work.

I would always give them the benefit of the doubt over Moogy. When they left I should have immeadiatly asked if I could have joined them. Instead I stayed with OG and all the B/S that came after was a big reason why I quite EQ. I regret not moving over, who know I may still be playing if I did.

As a non officer, non important person in the guild I never knew what really happened, but I have no doubt it was Moogy's fault. Lisander and Samila (and the others with them) were good people and way more skilled at leading and just generally having fun than Moogy.

Just my opinion (not worth much).

Samin

Good god! Am I the only person here that wasnt OG guilded at one time or another???

Probably!

I always confused Trek wioth Trebbor .. .maybe you were in OG.

I hated dying near The Overthere/Skyfire border. It was such a bitch to get a cleric to come out there for a res. Or worse, dying somewhere in Warsliks Woods.

Seebs wrote:I always confused Trek wioth Trebbor

Me too!







Or was it Komodo and Komido I got confused

Trek wrote:Good god! Am I the only person here that wasnt OG guilded at one time or another???

nah, i wasn't. But I was guilded with you a couple times!

Truant wrote:

Trek wrote:Good god! Am I the only person here that wasnt OG guilded at one time or another???

nah, i wasn't. But I was guilded with you a couple times!

6 degrees of OG anyone?

Moogy loves to eat
Smelly nutty brown nuggets
From my ass a treat


For what it's worth, I had a lot of fun in both OG and CT.

I took a few shots at peoples spelling, but I wouldn't say I was a Nazi about it.

Drama drama drama...I picture the Badger flash but using Drama instead and the OG toons bouncing around...

/wave Nowun - good to see you again.

Hey all old CG/OGers, look at what I just found on the interweb: Crimson Guard Roster. Talk about a moment frozen in time!

You know, the game was still plenty fun in the early OG days, but I tell you, the time I had back in Crimson Guard was really special. So many great times and great folks. Those are the times I remember most readily when I think about what was good in EQ.

Ogbar wrote:/wave Nowun - good to see you again.

Hey all old CG/OGers, look at what I just found on the interweb: Crimson Guard Roster. Talk about a moment frozen in time!

Woo, look at all of those email addresses! /spam

I was in Dark Sun while Crimson Guard was training us on Lower Guk Live Side Ramp lead by uber trainer Voronwe. CG/Dark Sun had a little rivalry going over at the Elder Minotaur camp...the only way I got into OG was because Dark Sun went to Saryrn server and I went with them then returned to Veeshan a few days later joining Obsidian Overlords before the CG/OO merger to sneak in the backdoor. : )

Good memories of Live Side Lower Guk during those days.