VeeshanVault

Backing up an arguement over a subject in which you have some prior knowledge on is one thing, formulating one based on easily accessable facts is another. BTW, there is no chance of you ever wounding my pride. The minority often feels disdain for the majority. TT w~

I think if the US, or anyone for that matter, wants to go to war with anyone else, let them.

At least some of them would die, leaving the hippies in charge, peace!

Hmm, would I be sent to Guantanamo (sp?) bay for saying I am going to kill George Bush? If I had the chance, I would. Does this make me a bad person?

Teeny I cannot really put into words how stupid the above comment was that you made.

Of all the attention that is currently on topics such as this, and you assume you are untouchable because you lurk behind a computer. If I was you I would seriously edit that statement out or hide in a deep cave.

Teeny its people like you with that attitude that lets war happen you jackass!

If I remember my history right, I believe that the fire bombing of Dresden was mainly a british venture, and they did it for revenge for destroying London.

Hmm, it appears people have taken my post seriously. Silly people.

To be perfectly frank with you Xan, I care little about the shit that your country and my own Prime Minister is getting me into. Most likely we will knock the shit out of Iraq if it comes to it.
The point is however, your government and mine are full of ignorant fucks who do nothing but scam the people they are meant to represent.

There really are too many avenues for me to go down to express my dislike of the state of the worlds governments, so in summary:

I love the world, I have no intention of killing anyone, I appreciate life, I like to play music and take drugs. I am 18. I do not pretend to be perfect, but I do a better job than most. Anyone who wants to cause aggrevation against me, is in the wrong, since I mean to harm to anyone, not even you Xan, I don't care enough.

Got it?

Oh, and Xan, when I ask for your ebayed opinion on things, I'll sell you it.

People that start wars may as well die? Gee, glad your Irish ancestors did not share this outlook when the English were having their way with your people...or my founding fathers under British tyranny here in the states.

Krimson, read my above post.

---------------
People that start wars may as well die? Gee, glad your Irish ancestors did not share this outlook when the English were having their way with your people...or my founding fathers under British tyranny here in the states.
---------------

What exactly is your point? I assume you are saying that the British were in the wrong? When I say people who start wars are fools, I should maybe say people who cause unnecessary aggrevation are fools. However since we were talking about war I didn't think it would be an argument of semantics.

And on the point of people threatening war;

Iraq wasn't threatening the USA if you remember, until the US decided to threaten war itself, so Bush Jr could make up for daddy's fuck up 10 years ago.


Peace (yes, I mean that)

^^

-

Tell me how Bush Sr. screwed up. Congress allowed him to drive Irag out of Kuwait, it did NOT give him the authority to oust Saddam. Once Iraq ceased hostilities with Kuwait, then resolutions were set into place with the UN. Bush Sr. did exactly what Congress gave him permission to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Now tell me what he did wrong again??

edit- and if *only* the world would have given Hitler a little *unnecesarry aggrivation* when he first started reclaiming Austria and parts of Eastern Europe...only a few million peoples lives would have been saved. I'm afraid beating swords to plowshares will not work until the return of Christ...till that day comes, it's up to us small humans to try and prevent disastrous things from happening.

Krimson, since I do not profess to know every detail about the Gulf War I will just assume that you are correct. I'm sure George Bush Sr is an honourable and good man, who did nothing but look out for the best interests of our world.



Bill Hicks would be ashamed.

P.S - On topic a bit more, why is Bush Jr concentrating on Saddam when he hasn't done shit about Bin Laden?

Krimson, realise, that just like you, I also want the best possible outcome so that few people die or get hurt. I just disagree on a base level with how it's all being handled. So chill out.



EDIT: Krimson wrote:
--------
edit- and if *only* the world would have given Hitler a little *unnecesarry aggrivation* when he first started reclaiming Austria and parts of Eastern Europe...only a few million peoples lives would have been saved. I'm afraid beating swords to plowshares will not work until the return of Christ...till that day comes, it's up to us small humans to try and prevent disastrous things from happening.
-------

Your continually missing my point, read what I write before you reply. I say anyone who starts war, causes shit for their own means, is an asshole. THEREFORE, Hitler was in the wrong.

Did you think I would argue against that?

However, comparing Saddam and Hitler is stupid. I never said Saddam was the good guy, I just said Bush wasn't either.

Bringing up irrelavent arguments such as my ancestors or Hitler is pointless~

No problem, Teeny. I respect your opinion and salute all the people that died in the past doing *unnecessary aggrivations* so you could voice it!

Represent!

yeah groovy, hug a rainbow

My facts seem to only be pointless when they shoot down your peace love and happiness theories.

Ya know its funny how people say we hate america we hate irag we hate this country and that..If it were actually up to the countrys people we wouldnt have war.
The governement runs everything in every country and no matter what the people do they buy there way in or bribe for sex or some shit.

So when people say i hate such country say i hate such countrys government cause its them doing it =P

Taly GoldenHeart wrote:Ya know its funny how people say we hate america we hate irag we hate this country and that..If it were actually up to the countrys people we wouldnt have war.
The governement runs everything in every country and no matter what the people do they buy there way in or bribe for sex or some shit.

So when people say i hate such country say i hate such countrys government cause its them doing it =P

So what runs the government?
It's not robots

Read my post again


Money runs the government

Yeah we may vote but like it makes a bit of difference..Look at hilery clinton..i serously doubt she was actually voted in. nope she bought her way in and she isnt even from NY

Yes your vote actually does matter Taly. Did you not pay attention at all to the presidential election and all the bullshit with Florida? If our vote didn't matter, then why did they go to so much trouble to see who actually won Florida? Hmm..thought so..stfu now.

*bitch slaps Lindain*

The only reason was cause most people couldnt believe that dipshit was gonna win. Gore as president..shit we would be worse off then we were with Clinton.

Oh and yeah i did watch kthnks

<---Republican now you stfu

What is the major malfunction going on in your head?
And what are you babbling about?

I voted for Bush. I am a Republican. I KNOW our country would have been worse off if Gore was elected. Shit, he tried to say he was one of the forefathers of the Internet.

The only thing good about this thread is that Grimace avatar. He pnwz.

I once saw Grimace outside of McDonalds and felt sad for him because he was too fat to get into the McDonalds, so I told him he should walk through the drive thru to get himself some hamburgers and a milkshake!

Krimson my friend, have your next joint on me and realise I am not anti-yuo~

Leeroie, slap him!

Kguku wrote:The only thing good about this thread is that Grimace avatar. He pnwz.

I once saw Grimace outside of McDonalds and felt sad for him because he was too fat to get into the McDonalds, so I told him he should walk through the drive thru to get himself some hamburgers and a milkshake!

Please dont let this post go overlooked. It's powerful.

I agree with Teeny. Every Republican president we have had for the past 2 decades has either gone to war or invaded a country during their term.

Operation: Desert Storm was nothing more then a financially motivated pseudo-war. You are fooling yourself if you think that the U.S. actually gives a dickhair's cared about Kuwait or it's people. The U.S. cared only that the price of it's beloved oil would increase about 30%.

U.S. foreign policy is not altruistic by any means. At this point, Iraq is a shattered country. After years of sanctions the Iraqi people have suffered tremendously. The sanctions clearly hurt the people of Iraq, and not Saddam.

Fast forward to the present. Without producing any real positive results in the manhunt for Osama, or even in the slowing down of terrorism in general, the U.S. government realizes that they must "create" a war to improve their image and the morale of its people. What better target then the crippled state of Iraq? They are 1/3 of the "Axis of evil" and the only one where a war would be virtually risk-free. Ever wonder why we are not going to war with Iran or North Korea, both of which are further along in their quest for weapons of mass destruction then Iraq, both of which are just as, if not more threatening to the security of the United States?

The propaganda campaign begins and Osama's name is virtually wiped from the memory of Americans. The fight against terrorism is put on the back burner, essencially because it is a fight that cannot be won. Ergo, we need to have a fight that can be won and prove that we are winners!

A huge portion of Americans eat this propaganda like pumpkin pie at Thanksgiving. Regardless of the fact that the majority of American's are against this pre-emptive strike, regardless of the fact that the majority of the Senators and Representatives have had phone calls and letters overwhelmingly against the passing of the resolution, regardless of the fact that this resolution is not supported by the U.N. or by Nato, the government approves it anyway, slapping the rest of the world in the face with it's self-righteousness.

And now we wait for our brothers and sisters to go to war for us in the name of freedom (which by the way we really don't have). Virtually, it will be a low-risk war as far as casualties are concerned (on our side anyway). However, Iraq is a wounded animal right now, let's say a skunk. You corner a wounded skunk and start pouncing on it, guess what it will do to you?

"Operation: Desert Storm was nothing more then a financially motivated pseudo-war. You are fooling yourself if you think that the U.S. actually gives a dickhair's cared about Kuwait or it's people. The U.S. cared only that the price of it's beloved oil would increase about 30%. "

You got to be fucking kidding me!!!! Please put down the crack pipe, open the windows air out the bedroom, and seak serious help I hear Paxel is good. If that dosent work sucking on the end of a double barreled shotgun might.

Cartalas wrote:You got to be fucking kidding me!!!! Please put down the crack pipe, open the windows air out the bedroom, and seak serious help I hear Paxel is good. If that dosent work sucking on the end of a double barreled shotgun might.

Owned. I dare you to come up with a counter argument for that.

.........

I've smoked crack before and I'm sure I will do it again sometime in the future. I guess this fact alone negates the validity of any opinion I may have on anything.

Cart's just trying to start his own Kurt Cobain mass suicide following.

Think for yourself and always question authority. America is not always right. Over 100,000 deaths in Vietnam and Korea for absolutely no reason. Question more, follow less.

I like to play music and take drugs. I am 18.

Xyun wrote:I've smoked crack before and I'm sure I will do it again sometime in the future. I guess this fact alone negates the validity of any opinion I may have on anything.

Even crackheads should realize that your previous long-winded post was chalk full of information that isn't opinion. Pretending to know what the US's motivation behind Desert Storm is not the same as saying "I think they did this because..." or "Their motivation was probably...". Hate on the U.S. all you like, but don't state events as if they are fact then claim it's "only opinion".

Xyun wrote:I've smoked crack before and I'm sure I will do it again sometime in the future. I guess this fact alone negates the validity of any opinion I may have on anything.

Yep it does

Pubin wrote:Even crackheads should realize that your previous long-winded post was chalk full of information that isn't opinion. Pretending to know what the US's motivation behind Desert Storm is not the same as saying "I think they did this because..." or "Their motivation was probably...". Hate on the U.S. all you like, but don't state events as if they are fact then claim it's "only opinion".

When I read his post I was fully aware that it was his opinion. If you need to be spoonfed a "this is just my opinion" disclaimer, it sounds to me like you're the one with the problem.

I'll do you all a favor:

*Everything you're about to read and have read previous to this disclaimer as to what the reasons are or will be for any war, unless concrete proof has been presented that the person posting has somehow managed to ransack the minds of the people directly responsible for said war, will be "an opinion".*

Fairweather Pure wrote:Think for yourself and always question authority. America is not always right. Over 100,000 deaths in Vietnam and Korea for absolutely no reason. Question more, follow less.

You people are so funny. ALL of you would be crying for American intervention right now if Russia or China decided to add your country to their beltloop. Yea, America sucks, till you need us to bail you out again. I don't know much about the Vietnam war admittedly so I wwon't dispute the fact that it may be a waste of lives...but I am sure the people of S. Korea won't agree that that war was a waste, when they are the ones that asked for intervention from the invading Communist North.

If Desert Storm was a purely altruistic endeavor to free Kuwait from a despicable despot like Hussein, then what exactly kept the US from getting seriously involved in the Bosnia? Gee, could it possibly be the fact that the gains <<<<<<< risks, effort, manpower, etc?

Delude yourselves all you want. Unless there are very tangible benifits to be had from sending aid, we won't give two shits about another country's plight. If Kuwait had no oil, then all you had was a military dictatorship overrunning a constitutional monarchy that no one would have given a rat's ass about.

yea, all that oil in S. Korea......you MUST be right....

Klydon:
I don't lump all Muslim's into one group. I do lump the fanatical Muslim's into a group that needs to be controlled. Not necessaraly killed, but you can ask the people who lost loved ones in the twin towers what they this *justice* should be.

On Desert Storm, we were asked by saudi arabia to defend them, called desert shield. We then took back Kuwait from Iraq. Our mission was not to take out Iraq.

About N. Korea and Iran, why we don't attack them? They have not sent missles (S.C.U.D. Shoots Crooked, Usually destroyed) to neighboring countries (Israel) who were not involved in the fight. When NK and Iran start lobbing nukes at their neighbors, you can bet that the U.S. will be called upon to save them.

Viet Nam, started by JFK, continued by Johnson, ended by Nixon.

Krimson Klaw wrote:yea, all that oil in S. Korea......you MUST be right....

Korean war, like Vietnam, the Cuban Missile Crisis was about political control of strategic points. Basically any government that succumbed to communism was more or less under the control of the Kremlin (china being the only notable exception). You can't compare any of the conflicts of the cold war to operations like Desert Storm. They have completely different overriding political climates.

Desert Storm certainly had a lot to do with oil supply. But Oil Supply is important to our national security, and the quality of our economy. Desert Storm was also about stabilizing the political situation in the Middle East, or at least preserving the pre-kuwait invasion status quo. That alone contributes to oil flow, which again equates to stable, prosperous US economy.

If you aren't going to fight for your economic prosperity, there is no reason to field an army.

About N. Korea and Iran, why we don't attack them? They have not sent missles (S.C.U.D. Shoots Crooked, Usually destroyed) to neighboring countries (Israel) who were not involved in the fight. When NK and Iran start lobbing nukes at their neighbors, you can bet that the U.S. will be called upon to save them.

this is a good illustration of how the Bush "doctrine" on handling things is simplistic, and in the end impotent. You can't paint the world in broad black and white strokes, and try to fit things into "for us or against us", "axis of evil" cookie cutters. It is fine for political rhetoric, but no good for policy. What will happen if Musharef loses power in Pakistan. They have nukes, and fundamentalist Islamic parties would be the likely successor.

DIfferent situations will require different approaches and different solutions.

As for Iran, it is not exactly a secret that they have supported a whole lot of terrorist groups, so just because they arent lobbing missiles on their neighbors (and we wouldnt care if they did -> Iraq and Pakistan) they are part of the "War Against Terror"

S Korea is an example of preventing the spread of communism. That = your tangible political gain.

In fact, if the US were still under the McCarthyesque mindset of the 50's, I bet my left nut that we would be sending the likes of Saddam Hussein aid if he were faced with a communist revolution within his country.

So what if the Gulf War was about oil. I think that is as compelling a reason as any. Ever think what would happen if we didn't go to war and the oil prices did go up 30% as quoted earlier? Our economy would be in the shitter. Many of you heard the bitching and moaning when gas went up to $2.00 a gallon. Imagine if they went up higher and stayed that way.

Kelgar wrote:S Korea is an example of preventing the spread of communism. That = your tangible political gain.

In fact, if the US were still under the McCarthyesque mindset of the 50's, I bet my left nut that we would be sending the likes of Saddam Hussein aid if he were faced with a communist revolution within his country.

You may have been out sick the day your history tracher went over this, so here goes...EVERY war is politically motivated.

Kelgar wrote:S Korea is an example of preventing the spread of communism. That = your tangible political gain.

In fact, if the US were still under the McCarthyesque mindset of the 50's, I bet my left nut that we would be sending the likes of Saddam Hussein aid if he were faced with a communist revolution within his country.

we did send Iraq military aid in the 80s against Iran, so this wouldnt be much of a bet .

Donald Rumsfeld was the US envoy to Baghdad in the Reagan Administration.

He has personally met with Hussein in Baghdad (i've seen it on TV) all joking and stuff. I"m not saying that makes him complicitous in anything, i'm just saying we underestimated our puppets .

You may have been out sick the day your history tracher went over this, so here goes...EVERY war is politically motivated.

And the sky is blue. Your point is?

I'm stressing how getting involved in a war has to be in some way beneficial to US in order for us to give a shit. Therein lies the problem we can yack about until our faces are blue.

I'm sure that you'd be able to come up with an excuse to justify every single armed conflict which even most political analysts and historians would consider a blunder, so to speak. Just remember that while you're chanting "We're gonna beat that sand nigger, Saddam, down so hard that his grandkids are gonna feel it" that most countries view us as a bunch of self righteous fucktards that need to wage war to feel good about ourselves (and to divert our attention from the shitpile that is our current domestic state).

Vor-

Yeah I remembered that. I meant to qualify my hypothetical situation with the circumstances that we've already dealt with Iraq and have the current imposed sanctions, etc, etc.

----ignore brain-fart----

Somalia wasn't a war but we were there. I don't see a lot of interest for the USA there other than altruistic ones. But then again, why do we have to fight a war where we have nothing to gain? We already did that in WWII when we went to war with Germany.

Krimson Klaw wrote:

Kelgar wrote:S Korea is an example of preventing the spread of communism. That = your tangible political gain.

In fact, if the US were still under the McCarthyesque mindset of the 50's, I bet my left nut that we would be sending the likes of Saddam Hussein aid if he were faced with a communist revolution within his country.

You may have been out sick the day your history tracher went over this, so here goes...EVERY war is politically motivated.

And you Sir skipped English Tracher=Teacher

-edit- man it's hard to have a debate without personally flaming someone, but I am trying!

-delete flame-

I'll stick with argumentative points, this debate is a good one.

You're kidding right?

The U.S. was perfectly content merely sending aid, but not armed forces until Dec 7, 1941 officially dragged it kicking and screaming into the conflict.

Nothing to gain? Well, lets look at it more in terms of preventing loss. You could have been reading about how great Hitler and Hirohito were in your classbooks and how much better the world is now that all those Jews have been exterminated.

If you like getting into political debates, check out some of the dumbest motherfuckers on the face of this planet....

Go here.

Look under the "politics and religion" section.