VeeshanVault

1st post, page 5. Didn't bother reading it though.

Forthe it isnt the "the real facts" it is the real facts.

Aranuil wrote: I very honestly don't give a rats ass what European Public opinion is. European public opinion has zero bearing on what my country should or should not do. For that matter, the opinion of the non-voting US citizen has no bearing on what the US should or should not do.

This is compeletely ignorant. Do you understand the concept of World War. Do you realize it is attitudes like yours that bring these wars about? My respect for your opinions just plummetted.

Metanis wrote: If you discover a rattlesnake in your backyard, a reasonable and prudent person would likely take a 12 guage shotgun out back and "retire" that snake.

1) You wouldn't waste a lot of breath trying to negotiate with that snake.
2) You wouldn't expect that snake to change it's nature and turn into a dove.
3) You wouldn't give a fuck what the neighbors (France, Germany, Belgium) think about the snake.

This snake is not in our back yard. It's not even in our neighbors back yard. In fact this snake is in a completely different neighborhood. Why the fuck you would go out of your way to kill this snake is beyond me, unless you use snake guts to get to work every day. Your analogy is comparable to your intelligence.

Fallanthas wrote:Personally, I don't worry about Saddam affecting the continental U.S. in any way, shape or form.

With this statement you have negated any and all justification for a war.

Bwuza wrote: But of course Usa didnt care when Sadam was killing all the people before this incident. Why? Kuwait=Oil --------> Usa -----> Usa=oil=happy=bling bling.

ROFL!

No political thread is ever finished without Xyun coming and adding in a few useless comments. This thread is now officially dead.

With this statement you have negated any and all justification for a war.

Bullshit. Posting this after telling us that world opinion is important reveals you for the fucked-up teenager you are, Xyun. Why don't you go sit on your bed and think about that a while.

I think oil is an alright reason for war. Countries have been going to war for centuries over natural resources. Why should it be any different today? So we are glossing it up a bit for humanitarian reasons and suspected threats. Big deal.

Is everyone all upset about the fact that the US won't come forward and say, "We are going to war to take their oil". Fine be upset. Then let's say that we don't have any oil coming in they way it used to. I don't know about you but I can't afford to keep paying close to $2 a gallon and still expect to make it to work. Imagine if gas went up to $3 or $4 a gallon. All these high moral "no blood for oil" people will be bitching up a storm.

Bubba wrote:All these high moral "no blood for oil" people will be bitching up a storm.

Most of them prolly drive SUV's.

Xyun, you are such a clueless assclown, I'm embarassed for your family...

No political thread is ever finished without Xyun coming and adding in a few useless comments. This thread is now officially dead.

I'd say it was dead when your redneck self started posting, because the rest of us couldn't stop laughing long enough to post.

I don't know about you but I can't afford to keep paying close to $2 a gallon and still expect to make it to work.

heh gas in the US is so friggin cheap it isn't even funny.. maybe if you stopped driving a gas guzzler you'd be fine. I'm used to paying 3X the price for gas. Stop fucking whining.

Kelshara wrote:

I don't know about you but I can't afford to keep paying close to $2 a gallon and still expect to make it to work.

heh gas in the US is so friggin cheap it isn't even funny.. maybe if you stopped driving a gas guzzler you'd be fine. I'm used to paying 3X the price for gas. Stop fucking whining.

I can whine all I want. We are used to paying less for our gas. Any kind of increase will piss us off. Many of us are trying to live within budgets. I don't drive a "gas guzzler" and I still have to fill my tank at least 2 times a week. You are used to paying 3X what we are paying? Well, what if suddenly you were paying 4 or 5 times what we are? Don't think that the gas shortage is an America only problem.

Bubba Grizz wrote:

Kelshara wrote:

I don't know about you but I can't afford to keep paying close to $2 a gallon and still expect to make it to work.

heh gas in the US is so friggin cheap it isn't even funny.. maybe if you stopped driving a gas guzzler you'd be fine. I'm used to paying 3X the price for gas. Stop fucking whining.

I can whine all I want. We are used to paying less for our gas. Any kind of increase will piss us off. Many of us are trying to live within budgets. I don't drive a "gas guzzler" and I still have to fill my tank at least 2 times a week. You are used to paying 3X what we are paying? Well, what if suddenly you were paying 4 or 5 times what we are? Don't think that the gas shortage is an America only problem.

And you are willing to kill people so you can have cheaper gas? You sir are fucked in the head. Especially if you believe the American companies that sell you the gas will pass on the savings.

gniliared ni ssergorp

Bubba Grizz wrote:I think oil is an alright reason for war. Countries have been going to war for centuries over natural resources. Why should it be any different today? So we are glossing it up a bit for humanitarian reasons and suspected threats. Big deal.

Big deal? Yes, let's just resort to the barbarism of "you have what I want so I'm going to take it no matter what you say" mentality of the middle ages. The United States is supposed to be a world leader. Leaders lead by example. If this 'war' was secretly all about the oil in Iraq, I would be very pissed off. Us invading a semi-helpless nation against the wishes of our allies and the international community as a whole is not an example of leadership. It is an example of tyranny.

Personally, I'm still thinking that our government has some sort of information regarding Iraq's WMD that they just haven't cared to share with the UN or it's citizens. If this war were all about oil, and the Bush Administration admitted it, they would receive ZERO backing though... so maybe it is all a ploy. I honestly don't know anymore. All I can do is hope that they make the right decision and that it goes well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Feb14.html

Blix's official response: Iraq has no WMD.

I can't wait to see how the Bush Administration tries to downplay that report.

I don't drive a "gas guzzler" and I still have to fill my tank at least 2 times a week. You are used to paying 3X what we are paying? Well, what if suddenly you were paying 4 or 5 times what we are? Don't think that the gas shortage is an America only problem.

I live in the US and have for a while, so I am quite aware of how Americans react to gas price increases

So just how much do you drive each week? I don't have a car (no need for it, live within walking distance of where I need to go daily) but my better half does and drives one+ hour each way to work daily. Add in additional driving since we only have one car, and we still only have to fill it up once a week.

And funny thing is.. there is no gas shortage. Prices go up because of the risk of war, nothing else. And I know for a fact that prices back home have stayed the same.

Fairweather Pure wrote:Blix's official response: Iraq has no WMD

Wrong!

The actual phrase in the Post report is:

his teams have not found any weapons of mass destruction

There is a HUGE difference between your misinterpretation and the actual words which were used.

Let's play using facts hey? Not finding WMD's is a world different than not having them.

Nice conclusion, Fairwether.


Too bad it isn't supported by the referenced material.



All Blix said is that they have found no conclusive evidence either way and that Iraq has still not accounted for materials they were known to have at the time the inspectors were forced out in '99.

I wish someone would explain how you prove the non-existance of something.
It's been vexing scientists and philosophers of all kinds for millenia.

He also said Iraq has cooperated everywhere they have gone, 4 scientists have been interviewed privately and that the trucks etc you saw on one of Powell's satelite photos very likely could be routine stuff.

OMG! Saddam ban's WMD's

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Feb14.html


OMG! Saddam gives his legal definition of a WMD...

http://www.backyardartillery.com/machinegun/

I'm getting the impression that Fallan, Metanis, Brotha and Midnyte actually want the inspectors to find evidence that Iraq has WOMD.


It's pretty scary when people actually prefer war over peaceful resolution.

No Miir, I want Saddam and his regime removed, period.

If they can find a way to do that short of full scale war, I am 100% for that.

Leaving the man in power is not an option for me.

I'd say it was dead when your redneck self started posting, because the rest of us couldn't stop laughing long enough to post.

Here's an idea, why don't I just start repeating everything you say then try to turn it around on you? Then on real issues I'll ignore everything you say that's based on fact, then start throwing out unrelated bullshit that just makes me look more and more desperate to find some way to substantiate my idiotic views. Yep, that's surely the way to show the uneducated, ignorant rednecks just how wrong they are.

I wish someone would explain how you prove the non-existance of something.

Simple, you show and give evidence of how you destroyed them.

I'm getting the impression that Fallan, Metanis, Brotha and Midnyte actually want the inspectors to find evidence that Iraq has WOMD.

We already know they have them. Saying that, I'd LOVE for the inspectors to be able to find all the WMDs and destroy them, but it's not going to happen.

Actually Brotha from what I have seen you haven't based any of your arguments on facts. However, I did.

First I forget to post source, so it was ridiculed.
Then I posted source, and it was blown off as public opinion only. And what does public opinion have to do with anything?!?

In fact, every time I have argued one of your opinions and provided facts, you have ignored the issue and jumped to another part of the argument. Vey typical for people who don't have any base for their arguments.

So keep up the good work! It sure gives me a good chuckle.

does anybody DISAGREE that Iraq had lots of Anthrax, lots of VX, lots of other agents along these lines back in ~1996 or whenever Saddam's son-in-law defected and gave the UN this information?

does anybody disagree that Iraq has not accounted for what has become of these weapons in the interim?

I'm hardly somebody who is a warmonger, in fact if you rmember last summer i was arguing specifically for the UN process. I think that process has just about exhausted its utility in resolving the matter.

what progress has been made in Iraq complying?

Iraq only partially started complying with December's declaration this week when we had finally parked 150,000 troops outside his borders?

what has to happen for him to fully comply?

does anybody think that Iraq is in full compliance with all of the relavent security council declarations?

what is the route to substantative progress?

this process didnt start in December. This process started 12 years ago.

Pardon me for rephrasing one of your questions, Vor.


Does anyone think that Saddam would have even begun to comply had we not parked 150,000 troops on his borders?

First I forget to post source, so it was ridiculed.
Then I posted source, and it was blown off as public opinion only. And what does public opinion have to do with anything?!?

WHOOSH, that's the sound of my post once again flying way over you head. I never said a thing about the European population liking Bush or supporting war. Nor did I ever dispute your source of facts on that matter. I said governments that support Bush. Then you completely ignored that and threw something out totally unrelated to what I was saying, trying to draw attention away from my arguement, much as how people try to change the subject to dealings with Iran or North Korea when the topic of the conversation is Iraq. The majority of people in England are against the use of force against Saddam, yet Britain is one of our staunchest allies. Then you said only 3 European governments support Bush, which is untrue.

And once again, you try to re use my post against me. The least you could do is put me into some kind of bibliography if you're going to continue with this.

To add another question to Voronwe's and Fallanthas': Does anyone believe that if Saddam could find a way to get chemical/biological weapons detonated within the US and not leave any finger prints, that he'd hesitate for a second to do it? Personally I'd feel better if Iraqi legislation was passed banning this!

Fallanthas wrote:Pardon me for rephrasing one of your questions, Vor.


Does anyone think that Saddam would have even begun to comply had we not parked 150,000 troops on his borders?

Nope.

But you don't ask why this is the case. You just assume he is an evil dude. Maybe he is. But you have to recognize that he destroyed most of his weapons and got no reprieve from sanctions at all. The US made it very clear that the sanctions would never be lifted while Saddam was in charge, resisting calls from other security council members to scale them back as they cooperated. This is a major cause of resistence to UN cooperation. Why comply when there is no benefit. The troops parked on his doorstep give him another motivation.

Forthe wrote:
But you don't ask why this is the case. You just assume he is an evil dude. Maybe he is. But you have to recognize that he destroyed most of his weapons and got no reprieve from sanctions at all. .

if the weapons were destroyed, why has there been no accounting (on Iraq's par) of this?

that was specifically asked for in the disclosure of programs submitted in December to the security council.

It's been asked for over and over again.

Iraq has accounted for destroying squat.


Sorry Forthe, if it was simply a case of benefit, Saddam would have gotten a hell of a lot of benefit by showing years ago that they had rid themselves of certain materials.

I said governments that support Bush. Then you completely ignored that and threw something out totally unrelated to what I was saying

And I listed them, so no I did not ignore it.

Then you said only 3 European governments support Bush, which is untrue.

I have yet to see you prove otherwise. There are other countries who will support a war IF UN/Security Council supports it, but I know of no others that will blindly do it without another resolution.

Xyun wrote:

Aranuil wrote: I very honestly don't give a rats ass what European Public opinion is. European public opinion has zero bearing on what my country should or should not do. For that matter, the opinion of the non-voting US citizen has no bearing on what the US should or should not do.

This is compeletely ignorant. Do you understand the concept of World War. Do you realize it is attitudes like yours that bring these wars about? My respect for your opinions just plummetted.

Allow me to clarify.

I believe that the US government should work with the leaders of European governments, and look to them to reflect the European public opinion. I don't believe that the US government should be swayed by every public opinion poll that appears on CNN, BBC, etc.

I have yet to see you prove otherwise. There are other countries who will support a war IF UN/Security Council supports it, but I know of no others that will blindly do it without another resolution.

There are more than these nine that have offered support, but just to throw out your stupid arguement of the three:

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/ ... 172906.asp

Prague, 5 February 2003 (RFE/RL) -- While the Iraq crisis is nearing a decisive phase, the European Union remains deeply divided over what line it should take on the issue. Germany and France do not favor any unilateral action by the United States and Britain to disarm Baghdad by force. But nine other European leaders, led by British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, signed a letter last week expressing solidarity with Washington's hard line. Four of the signatories are from candidate members: Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia.

And you're right IF another resolution is passed (which would be an 18th resolution, not a 2nd) even more would support us.

AP wrote:Blix said it was significant that ``many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for.''

As an example, he cited a document that suggested some 1,000 tons of chemical agent were unaccounted for. Although he said he could not conclude the chemicals still existed, there was no proof that they had been destroyed.''

that quote is from today, at his presentation to the U.N.

On top of what Brotha posted, 16 of the 19 members of NATO support the war in Iraq. Belgium, France, and Germany are the only two that don't.

miir wrote:I'm getting the impression that Fallan, Metanis, Brotha and Midnyte actually want the inspectors to find evidence that Iraq has WOMD.

It's pretty scary when people actually prefer war over peaceful resolution.

I think it would be awesome if Saddamn would simply abide by the UN Resolutions.

Right now, this minute, if he decided to comply (without deception or other tricks) he would avert war.

I think what's truly scary is that people like Miir and Forthe and Kooky and others can be blind to both human nature and to objective reality!

http://byrd.senate.gov/byrd_newsroom/by ... ary_9.html

Sorry, I am posting again. I can't stay away

Byrd is a party-line democrat. He writes very well.


Perhaps he should pause to wonder why noone else is questioning the President on this?


I'n not questioning his right to dissent. Just pointing out that when you stand alone ona question as large as this, there is usually a reason for it.

miir wrote:I'm getting the impression that Fallan, Metanis, Brotha and Midnyte actually want the inspectors to find evidence that Iraq has WOMD.


It's pretty scary when people actually prefer war over peaceful resolution.

I would prefer Saddam show proof he has destroyed all his WOMD and liberate his people and funnel the riches his country makes on oil down to his people and improve his infrastructure and technology and allow his people freedom and discourage some of the barbaric ,wacky, religous-based non-sense that makes others feel so un-easy.

I would perfer that George Bush should funnel the riches his country makes on oil down to his people and improve his infrastructure and technology and allow his people freedom and discourage some of the barbaric ,wacky, religous-based non-sense that makes others feel so un-easy.

Too easy.

When is the last time you had to skip a meal, Fair?


Even easier.

Fallanthas wrote:Byrd is a party-line democrat. He writes very well.


Perhaps he should pause to wonder why noone else is questioning the President on this?


I'n not questioning his right to dissent. Just pointing out that when you stand alone ona question as large as this, there is usually a reason for it.

I think if anything that indicates to me that if he is willing to stand up like that, he feels America is approching this situation that has the potential to make consequences that are beyond acceptance by us.

Whoa baby! I almost missed this the first time through! Forthe actually admitting...

Forthe wrote:

Fallanthas wrote:Does anyone think that Saddam would have even begun to comply had we not parked 150,000 troops on his borders?

Nope...
... The troops parked on his doorstep give him another motivation.

Pretty amazing stuff this saber rattling diplomacy.

I agree, Acies.


That is his right.


All I was saying is that when you stand up in a room full of people, especially as diverse a group as our Senate and ask a question, there is a darn good reason you don't recieve a response.

Fairweather Pure wrote:I would perfer that George Bush should funnel the riches his country makes on oil down to his people and improve his infrastructure and technology and allow his people freedom and discourage some of the barbaric ,wacky, religous-based non-sense that makes others feel so un-easy.

Too easy.

You're a moron. Nuff said. Compare apples to apples please. Laughable you are.

Aranuil, in a democracy, politicians are swayed by public opinion. Those that aren't, are abusing their power.

Fallanthas wrote:All I was saying is that when you stand up in a room full of people, especially as diverse a group as our Senate and ask a question, there is a darn good reason you don't recieve a response.

WTF are you blabbering about you baffoon? What is the reason? Do you know or are you just speculating, or are you insinuating something?

Masteen wrote:I'm embarassed for your family...

I have no immediate family except my brother. My family was killed in a war, except for a few aunts and uncles that were able to escape the war. I feel the way I do because of personal experience, because of having lost parents to the atrocities of war, not because a blabbering puppet-monkey president who has never felt a moment of strife in his entire life throws around phrases like "Axis of Evil" and "God's work". It's easy to have a big fucking mouth when the horror and death and destruction is on the other side of the world.

If you motherfuckers are so sure about the intentions and justifications of this first ever pre-emptive strike, why don't you join the military and help save the lives of Americans you ignorant fucking hypocrits?

When is the last time you had to skip a meal, Fair?


Even easier.

40 million Americans living under the poverty line. 50 million Americans without health care.

On a personal level, how about grandparents that cannot afford thier fucking medications so they drive to canada evry 6 months and pay cash for a 6 month supply at 1/10th the price. I have an uncle that is the most disenchanted Vietnam Vet I have ever met. He was drafted at age 19 and thrown away when the war was over, but only after having lost 2 brothers in the war. My best frined teaches school in a Detroit subarb that's using computers from the late 80's in thier "computer lab". My GF has a $40,000.00 student loan to pay off, but no high paying jobs are available thanks to the current economic suck.

It disgusts me to see another 900 million dollar jet being made for a war against a country that can't even feed it's own people.

None of that is easy.

Acies wrote: Sorry, I am posting again. I can't stay away

Welcome back Acies... your side can use all the help it can get here.

I'm sure you realize that my side has history, facts, and intellectual honesty going for it.

Your side has Kooky... "Sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Fairweather Pure wrote:

When is the last time you had to skip a meal, Fair?


Even easier.

40 million Americans living under the poverty line. 50 million Americans without health care.

On a personal level, how about grandparents that cannot afford thier fucking medications so they drive to canada evry 6 months and pay cash for a 6 month supply at 1/10th the price. I have an uncle that is the most disenchanted Vietnam Vet I have ever met. He was drafted at age 19 and thrown away when the war was over, but only after having lost 2 brothers in the war. My best frined teaches school in a Detroit subarb that's using computers from the late 90's in thier "computer lab". My GF has a $40,000.00 student loan to pay off, but no high paying jobs are available thanks to the current economic suck.

It disgusts me to see another 900 million dollar jet being made for a war against a country that can't even feed it's own people.

None of that is easy.

The opportunity exists in America for those people. You cannot say the same for Iraq. It is different. Please think a little bit please. Just a smidge, atleast, before you post the Democrat platform for every election. I actually feel sorry for you.

Nevermind Xyun. It's an adult thing. Doesn't surprise me in the least that you missed it.


Fair,

40 million out of 550 million? I would say that's doing pretty damned good.

I'm sorry for your grandparents, and sorry to hear of your uncles plight. And I agree that health care costs, especially medication, suck.

My GF has a $40,000.00 student loan to pay off, but no high paying jobs are available thanks to the current economic suck.

Maybe where you live. With unemployment still trying to hit 6% nationwide, that's clearly not the case everywhere.

My own student loan didn't go quite that high, but even $28,000 hits the checkbook hard every month. Beats the shit out of letting someone else buy my education for me.


Bottom line, we in the U.S. are prospering, by and large. We have more personal freedom than any other developed country. Your post was horseshit from the first capital to the last period

Fairweather Pure wrote:40 million Americans living under the poverty line. 50 million Americans without health care.

On a personal level, how about grandparents that cannot afford thier fucking medications so they drive to canada evry 6 months and pay cash for a 6 month supply at 1/10th the price. I have an uncle that is the most disenchanted Vietnam Vet I have ever met. He was drafted at age 19 and thrown away when the war was over, but only after having lost 2 brothers in the war. My best frined teaches school in a Detroit subarb that's using computers from the late 90's in thier "computer lab". My GF has a $40,000.00 student loan to pay off, but no high paying jobs are available thanks to the current economic suck.

It disgusts me to see another 900 million dollar jet being made for a war against a country that can't even feed it's own people.

None of that is easy.

Man you are sad. Someone could point out the blessings you enjoy in nearly every sentence of your post. You sir, are a whiny crybaby asshole who wouldn't recognize good fortune if it bit you in the ass.