VeeshanVault

Krimson Klaw wrote:1. Iraq has had a huge military ever since their war with Iran ended. Dangerous is the fact that he does not hesitate to use chemical weapons that are inhumane, he HAS used them.

Yeah. The chemical weapons the united states gave him during the Iran/Iraq war. Gee what an asshole.

I have yet to see any compelling evidence.. check that. I have yet to see any evidence at all that Hussein has nuclear weapons. The Bush administration has certainly failed to produce anything. And even if he did, he lacks the capacity to launch one at the US, and he has just as much means of smuggling one into the country and detonating it, say from a van, as any other US h8'er in the world.

The war on terrorism has already turned into just as big of a clusterfuck waste of tax dollars as the war on drugs, so your president goes hostile on Iraq in some vain attempt to not look like the bumbling fucking jackass that he is, and has the bonus of feeding billions and billions of dollars into his daddy's war industry friends with juicy new contracts for more missiles and military hardware. People like you buy it hook line and sinker. Gee maybe that new puppet dictator that the US will install in Iraq will actually last an entire year before turning on you this time!

Actually since the fall of the Soviet Union the US Military has had little to deal with, so the "War on Terror" is fine with me, let us go hunt down, shoot and send some terroists to Quantanmo Bay in Cuba for confinement.

Makes me feel like I'm earning my pay at least.

The threat of Iraq however IS real, a shipment of purchased uranium was confiscated in eastern Turkey on its way to Iraq by international agents that were tipped off. This 'tip-off' is the exception rather than the rule in these types of cases.

So what! we found ONE shipment, how many have already made it through the lines of detection already? Saddam has a cache of uranium and other assorted compounds and formulas he would need to forge a nuclear or at least, atomic class weapon.

Given the time to research the atom splitting and rocketry he could have a medium range Intercontential Ballistic Missle capabile of delivering a weapon of mass destruction. On a worse note, the means for delivery wouldnt even and probably would not be a rocket or missle... but rather a truck, car or small airplane.

We must "ACTIVELY PREVENT" this type of situation from ever occuring.

If that means we go into a 3rd world country and disable it, assasinate a dictator or supply a regime change to ensure the existance of our future race then that is what must be done.

no way a missile from Iraq is a threat to the US.

ICBM technology needs to be tested, and the guidance systems are sophisticated. And you can't do subterranean detonations, or test rocket launches without the US finding out.

10 years ago, Iraq couldnt even hit targets in Israel with accuracy.

but you are right it is far more likely that a warhead would be delivered via 'conventional means'.

at any rate, if they do come up with a weapon, whether or not it will be effective is anybody's guess, since it will be almost completely based on untested technology.

that is unless they buy a premanufactured warhead from somebody else.

"I have yet to see any evidence at all that Hussein has nuclear weapons"

that's be cause no one has said he HAS them...NO ONE. We are saying he is TRYING TO GET THEM. Do you understand the difference? Even the former head of Saddhams nuclear program says he is only 2 years MAX from creating them. Is that not PROOF that he is seeking them?

This is what he told our US Seante on August 1st...
"Khidir Hamza, who played a leading role in Iraq's nuclear weapon programme before defecting in 1994, cited German intelligence in saying: "With more than 10 tonnes of uranium and one tonne of slightly enriched uranium...in its possession, Iraq has enough to generate the needed bomb-grade uranium for three nuclear weapons by 2005."

He also claimed: "Iraq is using corporations in India and other countries to import the needed equipment for its programme and channel it through countries like Malaysia for shipment to Iraq."

Mr Hamza, who now works for a New York thinktank, said that the chemical and biological weapons programmes were making strides and Baghdad was "gearing up to extend the range of its missiles to easily reach Israel".


I tad more google searches before responding this time, please.

what the fuck would I need to search google for to render an opinion and common sense, you stupid fucking jackass moron? Don't reply to me if you lack the intellectual capacity to do nothing but regurgitate someone else's previous insults at me like a fucking parrot. You will not get away with that kind of shit with me.

OH NO A FORMER IRAQ POLITICIAN IS SHILLING FOR THE US PROPAGANDA MACHINE IN EXCHANGE FOR CITIZENSHIP. WE BETTER CARPET BOMB BAGHDAD AND KILL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS JUST IN CASE

lol oh no they only need 10 more tons. If only that 33 grams of non weapons grade uranium they confiscated in turkey got through they would have been so much closer to their goal. That must be the nuclear weapons program that the UN weapon inspectors failed to find and the US cannot prove it exists.

Your childish post is proof enough that you have no facts to stand on, thanks. Curse words and using caps does not an argument make. Lol.

Facts? FACTS? What fucking facts? I haven't rendered a single fact in this entire thread other than the FACT that the Bush administration has FAILED to provide PROOF of a compelling reason to invade a foreign country. I don't endorse military invasions based on speculation and rhetoric. You care to refute this or are you going to dismiss my post as childish as another fucking cop out? You sure are good at copping out of shit.

Everything else stated is OPINION.

I repeat. "Your childish post is proof enough that you have no facts to stand on, thanks. Curse words and using caps does not an argument make"

Whatever happened you "You are IGNORED!!" ... ahh, the good ole days!

I don't want to ignore her. I want to hear her opinion, even if she can't debate too well.

Yes, there is a severe burden of proof to support the theory that Iraq is developing nuclear/biological weapons. UN inspectors have found nothing, and the US has not offered squat other than conjecture and speculation. I cannot and will not endorse a war based on that. I wouldn't die for that and I would hope most Americans would require more proof than "Because the government said so". The government says OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of things...

Krimson Klaw wrote:I repeat. "Your childish post is proof enough that you have no facts to stand on, thanks. Curse words and using caps does not an argument make"

Sorry man, all I read out that is "I'm a stupid fucking automatron that blindly follows every corrupt stupid thing my government sticks their nose into. Especially their racist and military-centric foreign policy. And even though I have yet to provide anything remotely close to a debate based on factual evidence of Iraq creating weapons of mass destruction I will continue to parrot that other people have no facts to stand on even though all they are rendering is opinion, and hope to God that they will fall for it."

edit: now 100% nicer!

Fairweather Pure wrote:Yes, there is a severe burden of proof to support the theory that Iraq is developing nuclear/biological weapons. UN inspectors have found nothing, and the US has not offered squat other than conjecture and speculation. I cannot and will not endorse a war based on that. I wouldn't die for that and I would hope most Americans would require more proof than "Because the government said so". The government says OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of things...

Do you realize the last time the inspectors were there (1998) that the Iraqis had heads up on which facilities were going to be inspected, prior to the inspectors getting there, and that many places were off limits to even BEING inspected? This is a fact. Oh, did I mention that inspectors have not been there in 4 years already? FOUR YEARS. Anyway, we'll know soon enough. This last round of inspections will tell all most likely, because no place will be off limits. If we find nothing, I'll be the first to come here and say I was wrong.

I think enough proof was provided to both the House and the Senete that they were able to vote on certain issues dealing with this. That is pretty much who the proof should be provided to and not necessarily the general public. Especially not the Canadian public who matters not at all to us.

I have given many facts and dates, as well as plenty of opinions. You however seem to just be shouting into the wind.

Bubba Grizz wrote:I think enough proof was provided to both the House and the Senete that they were able to vote on certain issues dealing with this. That is pretty much who the proof should be provided to and not necessarily the general public. Especially not the Canadian public who matters not at all to us.

Uhh, the general public is the body that the government must ultimately seek approval from. At least in my country where the government represents the will of the people and not the will of their own self interests.

Rest assured I will be crying myself to sleep tonight at your incredibly witty jibe on Canada though. I'm sure you feel really secure and important in your trailer right now.

The last time there were weapons inspectors in Iraq, one of the "inspectors" was an American "intelligence gatherer" and they were all thrown out of the country for violating the UN agreement on weapons inspections. What is your country's stance on foreign spies getting guided tours of your weapons facilities? Yeah, thought so.

At least she did not curse this time. Still need work on the personal insults though, but I have faith still!

Well you see that's just it, we elect representitives to office and they vote for us. Once they are in office the general public only comes into play about 4 months before the next election. Our reps don't go door to door asking our opinions because we already gave them the go ahead to speak for us. If we didn't like his stance then we just vote someone else into office next election. As for the witty jibe, it wasn't meant as such because it is the truth. Why should we care what the average canuk thinks about our policies or how we vote?

kyoukan type-R wrote:The last time there were weapons inspectors in Iraq, one of the "inspectors" was an American "intelligence gatherer" and they were all thrown out of the country for violating the UN agreement on weapons inspections. What is your country's stance on foreign spies getting guided tours of your weapons facilities? Yeah, thought so.

Um, that was an Iraqi accusation. HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you do provide me with proof or an article that we did send an intelligence guy over there, I will gladly admit I was wrong.

I don't see the conflict here. Weapons Inspector or Intelligence Gatherer? Wouldn't they about equate to the same thing anyhow? Wouldn't we want someone who knows what the hell they are doing, inspecting these sites? I thought that was their job.

Krimson Klaw wrote:
Um, that was an Iraqi accusation. HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you do provide me with proof or an article that we did send an intelligence guy over there, I will gladly admit I was wrong.

that would require searching google. I'm not allowed to do that anymore because providing evidence to support myself in debate makes some assholes start to whine like fucking babies about me.

It's ok, you can use google searches when debating with me, I won't get mad at ya.

There are too many REALLY FUCKING IGNORANT people posting on this thread.

Example 1:

Once they are in office the general public only comes into play about 4 months before the next election. Our reps don't go door to door asking our opinions because we already gave them the go ahead to speak for us.

And you call yourself an American? Looks like you ditched too many classes in high school. The government is created by the people and for the people. Our opinion matters MORE then our politician's opinion. The politician is there to represent the people, what the people want, and what they don't want. If I call my representative's office (and I have) he has a goddamn obligation to listen to what I have to say. THAT IS THE MEANING OF REPRESENTATIVE dipshit.


Example 2:

Do you realize the last time the inspectors were there (1998) that the Iraqis had heads up on which facilities were going to be inspected, prior to the inspectors getting there, and that many places were off limits to even BEING inspected? This is a fact. Oh, did I mention that inspectors have not been there in 4 years already? FOUR YEARS.

This is not a fact. Learn the truth before you start spouting bullshit out your ass and proclaiming it as fact. Here is the fact:

According to Scott Ritter, who spent seven years in Iraq with the UNSCOM weapons inspection teams performing acidly detailed investigations into Iraq's weapons program, no such capability exists. Iraq simply does not have weapons of mass destruction, and does not have threatening ties to international terrorism....

You are correct that Iraq has not been inspected since 1998, however Iraq does not have the capacity to create weapons of mass destruction under the close eye of the U.N. and 11 years of embargo and sanctions.

Ritter himself and no weapons inspection team has set foot in Iraq since 1998. Ritter believed Iraq technically capable of restarting its weapons manufacturing capabilities within six months of his departure. That leaves some three and one half years to manufacture and weaponize all the horrors that has purportedly motivated the Bush administration to attack.

"Technically capable," however, is the important phrase here. If no one were watching, Iraq could do this. But they would have to start completely from scratch, having been deprived of all equipment, facilities and research because of Ritter's work. They would have to procure the complicated tools and technology required through front companies, which would be detected. The manufacture of chemical and biological weapons emits vented gasses that would have been detected by now if they existed. The manufacture of nuclear weapons emits gamma rays that would have been detected by now if they existed. We have been watching, via satellite and other means, and we have seen none of this.

A war on Iraq would be completely baseless at this time. The U.S. government is ignoring it's own citizens, which goes against the very foundation of this nation. Keep on spouting the propaganda you see on CNN though, instead of learning the facts and deciding the truth for yourself, it is the new American way.

CNN? pfft, Fox all the way baby.

"This is not a fact. Learn the truth before you start spouting bullshit out your ass and proclaiming it as fact. Here is the fact:"

Oh, and it is a fact.

Xyun,


What you and that article you pulled both conveniently glossed over was the fact that sites were forbidden to the inspectors every single time they went in.

In short, you have not one clue where Iraq is at in their weapons production. Ritter has only a crumb more information than you do.

Stop with the political BS, look at the entire situation and then make a decision. If you honestly believe a man who would gas his own people should have ANY opportunity to enter the nuclear theatre, you are a tard.

Xyun wrote: And you call yourself an American? Looks like you ditched too many classes in high school. The government is created by the people and for the people. Our opinion matters MORE then our politician's opinion. The politician is there to represent the people, what the people want, and what they don't want. If I call my representative's office (and I have) he has a goddamn obligation to listen to what I have to say. THAT IS THE MEANING OF REPRESENTATIVE dipshit.

First off, yes I do call myself an American. I was born here, I vote in the elections, and I was in the Gulf War serving my country. I am also a realist in some regards. The majority of the general public don't even know who is representing them nor have they even voted. You called your rep? Excellent. Did you call him a dipshit too? Yes our opinions matter but I think they matter the most around election time. That is when most politicians take notice. Let's face it, our politicians are going to listen to the big lobbies out there before they consider the few phone calls they get a year before the next election. Hey, I may be wrong and we have a 100% turn out for voting just like Iraq has.

i'm not sure Scott Ritter is really a good source.

He seems to have some sort of peculiar agenda to me, but maybe his statements seem so outlandish because he is telling the truth in a sea of lies?

who knows.

regardless, concerning weapons inspections, from what i've seen in interviews of people who planned and executed the inspections, they feel like they surprised the Iraqi's less than 15% of the time.

Basically, Iraq did everything possible to interfere with the inspections shy of flat out denying them access to sites. well they did that too.

While their behavior was highly dubious, and they were certainly trying to hide something, we didnt find anything damning.

Certainly i think they are doing whatever they can to make at least some weapons of mass destruction. But i think before we choose to topple that government, we need to go through the UN approval process.

One can say the UN is a tool. And if that is indeed so, it is best to use that tool, because marginalizing the UN will hurt the US in the long term.

I only disagree with one thing you said, the UN marginalize themselves when they give this guy 20 chances to comply. I do think they are done doing that though, and will finally put their foot down this time.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally."
- Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's

"My fellow Americans. I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
- President Reagan, before a scheduled radio broadcast, unaware that the microphone was already on

----
At least Reagan had a sense of humor.

Hehe now that's good.

As far as the weapons inspectors go..

I know that Richard Butler, the person in charge of the weapons inspectors, was a regular on CNN around 11 months ago when the war in Afganistan was going. Several of these spots also focused on his time in Iraq and he stated repeatedly that not only were areas off limits to the inspectors, but Iraq often knew ahead of time the inspectors schedule.

Richard Butler went on to state that in his opinon, there were signs that Iraq was hiding several "weapons of mass destruction" programs, including nuclear, chemical and biological, but the inspectors could never get enough "beyond a shadow of a doubt" evidence. He also went on to point out that several republics of the former Soviet Union have access to nuclear materials/weapons and that it is known that this material has been made available to the third world for money. Independent inspections have verified that there are missing pieces to the Soviet arsenal that can't be accounted for, including "suitcase nukes".

I just wonder if good old Sadam is going to have to drop one someplace before people figure out he has the ability or if one does go off someplace if they will ever figure out how it got there and that we should have done something about it when we had the chance.

I also wonder if anyone is still upset with Israel who bombed a nuclear plant that was under construction in Iraq several years ago and told them never to start construction on another one.

Wow, I WAS right. Ya see that Xyun?

Ya the Nuke site pissed off the world when it happened. That's how a country with zero liberals conducts themselves! Oh, and how they did the pre-emptive strike against Egypt and Syria whne they were massing troops on their border. That's how things are supposed to be done!

THIS is a good thread.

Which country has zero liberals? Israel? What fucking fantasy land do live in?

You are right though. Bombing your neighbors for building a nuclear power plant, not to mention rolling tanks through refugee camps is a really great way to conduct yourselves.

Gotta love those brilliant conservative jews in Israel that don't take any shit from anyone. It was really brilliant how that one conservative assassinated his own prime minister and started another conflict between Israel and Palestine because they were discussing the idea of giving Palestinians a few hundred square miles of dirt to call home.

kyoukan type-R wrote:You are right though. Bombing your neighbors for building a nuclear power plant, not to mention rolling tanks through refugee camps is a really great way to conduct yourselves.

You damn skippy, hippy!

no offense Krimson...but you're coming off as the kid with his hands over his ears going "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!"

None taken Truant, same can be said of both sides.

In short, you have not one clue where Iraq is at in their weapons production. Ritter has only a crumb more information than you do.

Neither does the Bush administration, according to you. So their proposed way of finding out this information is to obliterate an entire country full of civilians? Don't fool yourself into thinking that a regime change will come about with no invasion.

The majority of the general public don't even know who is representing them nor have they even voted.

Once again you are wrong. Wanna know about majorities? 51% of those in the U.S. over the age of 18 voted in 2000. 67.5% of those registered to vote voted. That is a majority sir. Mind you the majority of that majority voted for Al Gore. The majority of Americans oppose this war unless backed by the U.N. The majority of the countries in the U.N. oppose this war. The majority of terrorists who oppose the U.S. would feel obligated to retaliate if this war happens. The majority of the people in the world (including Americans) believe in the propaganda that their government supplies. And finally, the majority of your daddy's good sperm (which are a minority) failed to reach their destination.

The only way people like Kyo will be convinced is if we get nuked by a suitcase bomb.

I don't feel oblidged to wait for that kind of "convincing" evidence.




Xyun, if you were Dictator of the Universe, =) how would you handle this situation? How would you make sure that the US isn't bombed by a glow-in-the-dark terrorist?

Xyun, if you were Dictator of the Universe, =) how would you handle this situation? How would you make sure that the US isn't bombed by a glow-in-the-dark terrorist?

I would not invade other countries senselessly because I was incompetent at handling this problem.

The US caused it's own problems by having the foreign policy it has had for 50 years towards the middle east. That is why anti-U.S. terrorists exist in the first place. Instead of trying to correct or change our attitude towards the region, we continue to stray further into the extreme, hate. That is what this is all about, hate.

Its real plan and simple Iraq Lost the war they aggreed to Weapons inspections,( Which they have not done), We the armed forces of the coallition have the right to enforce said treaty by force if neccessary.

Now in saying that I hope it does not come to force but if it should I will not shed one tear for Iraq and its ppl they elected him by a 100% Margin.

And who cares what Kofi Anus has to say about it.

Now in saying that I hope it does not come to force but if it should I will not shed one tear for Iraq and its ppl they elected him by a 100% Margin.

Someone else read the 100% of the population turned out and 100% voted for Saddam BS

Come on Cart, you don't believe that shit any more than the rest of us do you?

Ok. Xyun, you are correct that 51% of the people did vote and that is indeed a majority. That was for the Presidential election not the congressional. Did you also know that we are in a 40 year decline in voter particiaption? Only 63% in 1960 to your mighty 51% in 2000. The only time there was an upturn in voting is when Uncle Ross ran back in 1992. Despite massive voter registration programs, which did increase the number of registered voters, we still have a massive lack of participation.

Voting for Congress yielded only a whopping 36.4% back in 1998 (yes Xyun, that is a minority). In 1998 the voter turn out for those 18-24 was a mighty 15%. I suspect that you might have been in that group. The percentages drop even farther in the local elections.

Even if we did have a 51% majority turn out for voting, that still leaves 49% of our population that didn't vote. That is crying shame. If you are so excited about your 51% majority then challange you to walk down your city streets and ask people who their reps are and I bet they don't know.

And Finally, At least my father had some good sperm.

Cartalas wrote: Now in saying that I hope it does not come to force but if it should I will not shed one tear for Iraq and its ppl they elected him by a 100% Margin.

you realize they didnt have a choice to vote for somebody else, right?

you realize that they voted by stamping their fingerprint on a slip of paper, right?

so basically, if you vote "NO" for Saddam the government knows who you are. And i would hazard to guess, you'd count yourself lucky if all that happened to you was you got your ass kicked by a couple thugs.

Certainly there are people in Iraq who support Saddam, otherwise he would not be in power at all, but i think most of them would prefer another type of government were they truly given the opportunity to enjoy that option.

Krimson: I don't htink you know too much about the political climate in Israel .

Governments with "no liberals" tend to be pretty sucky. Germany and Italy in the 30s for instance. NOt that governments with "no conservatives" are much better (Stalin).

regardless, if you think our government should be like Israel's, i'm glad you aren't part of our government

Bubba: I think one thing that has contributed to voter apathy in the last 40 years, is the impression (which is founded in truth i think) that invdividual voters have a much more limited say in the governmental process than Large Corporations and Special Interest groups.

I think we have really moved away from representative government in that time unfortunately. Both parties are to blame for this, of course. I don't blame people for not voting, even though personally i always make a point to do it.

Xyun, elaborate.

What would you change in our policies towards the middle east so that our security would be secured?

I agree with you Voro. That is one of the reasons why I think that even though Xyun calls his Rep and that Rep is "Obligated" to listen to him, his call doesn't carry as much weight as the Special Interest groups and Lobbies that let their money do the talking. I am not saying this is right but I believe that is how things are. The only weapon we have against politicians who work counter to what we want, is the Vote. There in lies the problem. Not enough people vote.

Basically this goes back to the thought that Proof of Iraq's actions need not be given to the people directly because we have hired/elected people to make those determinations for us.

The US caused it's own problems by having the foreign policy it has had for 50 years towards the middle east. That is why anti-U.S. terrorists exist in the first place. Instead of trying to correct or change our attitude towards the region, we continue to stray further into the extreme, hate. That is what this is all about, hate.

We have. They have not.


Figure it out. Come back and debate when you do.

Another fun fact about the Iraqi election.

Do not forget that all 11.4 million ballots were hand counted overnight!

100% my ass.

Wow, Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people and fixed elections? That is about as low as you can get. You are fucking crazy if you don't think any government that abuses it's power should not be investigated and punished.

If you agree with the above, you may find these links interesting:


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/oct20 ... -o18.shtml

http://ramsey.dca.net/electiondebacle.htm

Oh, the hypocrisy!