VeeshanVault

Arborealus wrote:

Legenae wrote:

Xzion wrote:on the contrary, more people have been murdered in the name of religion and god then with any other justification

So true!

While I'm on the Atheist side of the arguement I disagree with this generalization...Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao are responsible for more human deaths among them than all other non- "natural" causes...And they were killing for non-religious reasons...Looks to me like "political affiliation" is in the lead followed closely by "racism"...at best religion is a distant 3rd though I think greed would probably outstrip religion as a cause too...

Overgeneralization kills...

Hitler killed off the Jews right? He may not have killed "in the name of God" but he mass murdered Jewish people.

What about the Inquisition? What about the fighting and killing going on in Northern Ireland today?

I'm sure there are OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more instances where religion does play a part in killings. I'm just too tired to look them up atm. heh

is judaism(sp?) a race or a religion? or is it both?

Spangaloid_PE wrote:is judaism(sp?) a race or a religion? or is it both?

I'm pretty sure it's a religion.... but I could be wrong.

Well, they were originally called Jews because of their home land, that being Judea in old biblical times. So, at one point it was accurate to say that they were a race (and some people would insist that it still is), but with the way the people have spread I don't think it is accurate any longer.

It's a culture and a religion.

Legenae wrote:Hitler killed off the Jews right? He may not have killed "in the name of God" but he mass murdered Jewish people.

His reasons for killing had zip to do with religion...Was rascism plain and simple...in fact his personal rationale was pseudo-scientific...eugenics...He killed about anyone who didn't meet his ideal of a master race...He certainly did not limit it to Jewish folks...they were just a convienient focus of hatred amongst a lot of ethnically Prussian people...

Legenae wrote:What about the Inquisition? What about the fighting and killing going on in Northern Ireland today?

The big 4 I listed have killed about 50 million total between them...The Inquisition was tinker toys (albeit horrific tinker toys) by comparison.

The "Troubles" Northern Ireland...while reprehensible, have cause very few deaths relatively speaking

Legenae wrote:I'm sure there are OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more instances where religion does play a part in killings. I'm just too tired to look them up atm. heh

Of course there are many instances...I didn't say religion was lily white......Just that it was overstatement to say "more people have been murdered in the name of religion and god then with any other justification"...

I dislike weak arguements on my side of the fence as much as on the opposing side...

Arborealus wrote: Of course there are many instances...I didn't say religion was lily white......Just that it was overstatement to say "more people have been murdered in the name of religion and god then with any other justification"...

I dislike weak arguements on my side of the fence as much as on the opposing side...

Well, I didn't say my argument was strong by any means. I honestly thought that the Hitler stuff was religious. Thank you pointing out my misconception on this subject.. it gives me incentive to research this area more.

Well, I just don't buy it(structured religion, gods, etc..). However, if folks have faith in whatever religion, that is cool. If I pressed my views on them I would be as much of an asshole as those that press their views on others... believe what you want, think what you want. After all, if we weren't allowed to have our own views....well, that would be a bitch.

Although I am pretty much atheist, I really try to be sensitive to those that have deep belief in whatever religion...theology aint my thing after all...

Either way, I guess if I were to assume a standpoint, I would have to sum it up with:

Believe in your fellow person. Be good to each other and listen. Nobody likes a jerkoff and try not to get too drunk at formal functions.

Roman empire killed thousands, maybe even millions( not sure) due to religious oppositions, the spanish enquisition killed a shitload of people, the crusades, almost all european settlers in the american continents killed off the natives for not converting to christianity, pakistan vs india, of course situations today, the egyptian empire, and many many more i can not think of

Rekaar. wrote:secular humanism

Look it up all you way cool anti-religion folks. Atheism breeds the most selfish people there can be, I mean, why not fuck over anyone and everyone while you pass through life? The Godless have no reason to listen to that little voice in the back of their head, whatever you attribute that "voice" to no one can deny it's there. Yes it's a generalization. Yes it holds true to the majority.

Bash religion all you want, it has it's blackeyes just like *any* social construction out there. Don't ever forget though, that despite the negatives that are prevalent in all religions and all governments, there has never been an atheist to better this world like any one of the Saints have. No matter what you believe, it's extremely ignorant to label religion itself as a cause of strife in the world when it is, in fact, one of the greatest motivators for doing good that has ever existed.

Actually I find the opposite to hold true, me and my athiest friends don't feel we can say a prayer and make the bad deeds go away. It's harder for us to purge our conscious. Just because you don't beleive in god doesn't mean you don't have a conscious.

Also I should point out that many scientists have bettered this world, prevented more suffering then you could dream of, more then any saint did, and you know what? Most of them are not religious, because science and religion while not mutually exclusive, they don't mesh well.

I think you need to look at things with a wider angle lens, maybe remove the lens cap while your at it. That's quite a generalization, I suspose all black men are gang bangers, all jews are money grubbing back stabbers, etc...nice. You know what? I hope if there is a god, he read your stupid post.

Go do 50 roseries...then bang your head on the pew in front of you.
God says so.

Ok, Ok, so I should have read the 5 posts after rekaar's I would have known everyone already said what I said....

Does anyone know if there is a correlation to religious stance and IQ? You know I said scientists generally set aside organized religion because it doesn't mesh...is there a study on this phenomenon?

Pilsburry wrote:Go do 50 roseries...then bang your head on the pew in front of you.
God says so.

I don't know why I skipped over all of Pils's posts in this thread, and read this post, but...

that was hilarious!

I found a few related pages...

http://community-2.webtv.net/Archure/Religion/
I found this one to be boring and have no figures....I skimmed through it.

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelli ... ligion.htm
I loved this one....I espeically liked how my cursor turned into a cross that was a nice touch it made me giggle. This one had references to a lot of studies regarding this question....and thier outcomes, some were even bar charted, the sample sizes were larger...but it was a little more generic then I liked in many aspects....still the best I found.

http://www.geocities.com/meta_crock/other/smater4.htm
This page says perhaps religious people have a different type of intelligence they refer to as "emotional intelligence" so that IQ and SAT scores mean nothing, so he failed to report any of those figures.... I can only guess as to the religious affiliation of the writer. Let's just say a man who tosses out figures that "may or may not" be releveant to a study such as SAT and IQ scores when the question is whether a certain population ins smarter then the other...he is probably using his "emotional intelligence".....I will withhold my next comment regarding this individual.

I found another page but it was too small of a sample size with many religions having under 10 entries (christians I thing had 10 exactly) and they were hand entered by people on the web, so I can basically rule out that "study" due to how easily it would be for me to spend 5 minutes and make it appear all athiests have a 90% chance to be geniuses by filling out 4 fields and hittting the back button and resubmit it 5x.

"Religious" and "moral" are exclusive terms. There are moral and immoral people on both sides of the fence.

That "little voice" in the back of your head is your conscience, not god.

I label myself as agnostic. I think it presumptuous to say I know for a fact that there is no god. Even if your death brings about the end to your existence that does not prove that there is no god. We give god a conscious. We presume much.

I think about several things. Each night when you go to sleep in many ways you cease to be. Yes some of us have dreams that we remember when waking but mostly it is just a black period of time that we just aren't there. This facts directly relates to lesser brain activity going on inside of our skulls. We can injure ourselves in a way that damges our brain and impairs or removes are ability to be who we were. There are also people born with many forms of retardation. How do you separate physical changes from the soul(if there is such a thing). It is not logical.

The religions of the world are mutually exclusive. If you are a Christian you belive that the only way you will reach heaven is by believing that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that he came to earth 2000 years ago or so and died on the cross and rose from the dead so that you may reach heaven. This is your core belief. If you do follow the word of god as laid out in the Bible you will not be rewarded by going to heaven but will be cast into hell for all eternity to suffer for your blashpemy.

Christians, when talking to non-Christians, tend to emphasize the fact that the Bible teaches you to be a good person. They do not generally go to the core doctrine until after a person is prepped with the manual of life. By their book, every Muslim, Jew, Hinduist, Buddhist is going to hell. If you are a Christian and deny this then you are denying the written word of god. I can not agree with this.

I have a great deal of difficutly understanding why anyone would say they believe this. When you are born into the world there is no reason to take any one book and view it any different from another. The Bible was clearly written by men. Men have many motives. The books of the Bible, including the new testament were written over hundreds of years. It would be like me writing about George Washington or Christopher Columbus...basing my opinions on all the stuff I read from other people.

When we are born, we are blank slates. Religion is a learned behavior. If you put a bunch of newborns on an island and they somehow surived to adulthood, they would probably form a rude sort of religion by the time they reached thier 40's or 50's. The religion would probably have something to do with nature, since that is the most obvious influence on thier daily lives. This "fresh" religion, would propose to answer all the questions that cannot be answered. Life, death, why bad things happen to good people, ect. That is what religions do. They fill in the blanks with answers that make people content with the unknown. There always has, and always will be religion simply because there will always be those unanswerable questions.

If Jerry Falwell were born in China, he would not be a Christian. If the Dali Lama were born in Podunk, AR, he would not be Buddist. It's all very simple really. Once you realize that your belief system is learned, you can really start becoming objective when looking at other religions, and even your own belief system. I'll close with one of my favorite quotes:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - - Stephen Roberts

That pretty much sums up my point of view on religion.

Fairweather Pure wrote:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - - Stephen Roberts

Awesome quote.

Xzion wrote:Roman empire killed thousands, maybe even millions( not sure) due to religious oppositions, the spanish enquisition killed a shitload of people, the crusades, almost all european settlers in the american continents killed off the natives for not converting to christianity, pakistan vs india, of course situations today, the egyptian empire, and many many more i can not think of

Your history is skewed...

Roman empire - what are you referring to exactly? Even the 30 Years War is questioned by historians as truly being a religious war. But even if you were referring to that it was thousands, not millions.

Spanish Inquisition - Historians argue that the # of people actually killed is grossly exagerrated. Here's a linkif you want to read more.

Native Americans were NOT killed off in the name of (or because of) religion. They were murdered because they were an inconvenience.

The Pakistani separation from India was religious in nature, but the war almost 25 years later had nothing to do with religion. A revolt in Pakistan led to millions of refugees pouring into India, and when India did not get any help with this burden of refugees, they decided to help them against the controlling regime in Pakistan.

Egyptian empire - ? Not sure what you are referring to here

Most wars or mass killings are not motivated by religion and many that may seem religious in nature, on closer analysis really come down to power and greed, which can be exclusive from religion. WWI, WWII, civil wars throughout history, most are about geography, and their numbers add up to be FAR more than religious wars. Like Arbor, I am an atheist who doesn't make religion some big bad social enemy. People don't need religion to be assholes.

Pilsburry wrote:I found a few related pages...

http://community-2.webtv.net/Archure/Religion/
I found this one to be boring and have no figures....I skimmed through it.

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelli ... ligion.htm
I loved this one....I espeically liked how my cursor turned into a cross that was a nice touch it made me giggle. This one had references to a lot of studies regarding this question....and thier outcomes, some were even bar charted, the sample sizes were larger...but it was a little more generic then I liked in many aspects....still the best I found.

http://www.geocities.com/meta_crock/other/smater4.htm
This page says perhaps religious people have a different type of intelligence they refer to as "emotional intelligence" so that IQ and SAT scores mean nothing, so he failed to report any of those figures.... I can only guess as to the religious affiliation of the writer. Let's just say a man who tosses out figures that "may or may not" be releveant to a study such as SAT and IQ scores when the question is whether a certain population ins smarter then the other...he is probably using his "emotional intelligence".....I will withhold my next comment regarding this individual.

I found another page but it was too small of a sample size with many religions having under 10 entries (christians I thing had 10 exactly) and they were hand entered by people on the web, so I can basically rule out that "study" due to how easily it would be for me to spend 5 minutes and make it appear all athiests have a 90% chance to be geniuses by filling out 4 fields and hittting the back button and resubmit it 5x.

The first link should be ignored. He doesn't have his Galileo facts straight. I just read a bio on him so its fresh in my mind. Galileo was a devout Catholic, even when the church banned SOME of his writings because he postulated the earth was not the center of the universe without proof. The church was very supportive of Galileo's collective research and with definitive proof probably would have accepted his theory and reconsidered how a certain bit of text in the Bible was interpretted. He was not "imprisoned" but he was restricted from travel so an eye could be kept on him. Not free speech, sure, but that sort of ideology didn't exist back then anyway, and even Galileo understood that.

Still looking at the others, but I have wondered about a correlation between education & religious orientation. I won't be so smug to say IQ, because personally I think religion has to do with psychological and environmental susceptability, which has zip to do with IQ. I'm also not saying that people who believe are psychologically weaker than those who don't. My father is a believer and one of the most intelligent men I've ever known....

Pils, the 2nd link was great, but I'd like to see it broadened to include such groups as historians, literary theorists, psychologists, those that fall under the realm of the humanities and social sciences. These are fields that by nature accept subjection and flux as a part of life, whereas the fields of science and mathmatics by nature rely on concrete postulations. Yes, I understand that much is "theory" in the sciences, but even those theories rely on a certain degree of specificity and fact you don't see as often in the humanities. Even a true historian will understand how subjective historical accounts are.

Lala
It did include those other groups. One of the surveys was done on Ivy league students from several decades. I went to Cornell myself. There you have some of the best students in the nation from all disciplines. It is overwhelmingly evident that as intelligence rises most religion becomes myth.

I would like to have seen the 2nd link broadened as well, unfortunately google didn't turn up much more for me.

I agree that there might be professions of people actually on a typically higher IQ level then the average that might accept religion more...such as *possibly* Psychologists....and I would really like to see what they think about religion...I mean they see people who hear god talking to them in thier head telling them to do bad things etc...or good things....

Historians generally I don't accept as an intelligent bunch of people, I'd have to see thier IQ scores as an average.....I don't view History as an itelligent subject...there is nothing to be dones, no cognitive thinking, just memorization. I'm not saying they are all retards, I'm sure some are extremely bright like people who track down the ruins of lost cities etc and peice together who life was back then, but the bulk of historians sit in libraries and simply memorize facts from books that the few smart historians wrote.

Literary theorists, that would be an interesting group....people who analyze the bible in detail...preferrably as close to the original form as it could be and with an accurate date line. I mean the bible is very ambigous I could take lines from it and interprete it to say something COMPLETELY differnt then the next guy. And that's when we both speak english....and talking into acocunt that the story/fable is actualy true. I've heard that much of it can be proven false....from my religion teacher, at a catholic university, taught by a priest...things such as the premonition when jesus says "see that city before you? Not one stone will be left unturned" or whateverhe said was actually put in writing AFTER the city was destroyed....yeah it's easy to say he predicted it...after the fact, had it been written BEFORE it happened I would trust the prediction more. There is also the fact that when you translate the bible he didn't walk or part the water I forget which...I think it translated to he waded through the water or something like that....not really that spectacular a feat either. I think the more you actually study the bible without bias, the less faith you have in it's words.

As for Fairweather....I agree 100%....religion is a learned behavior and if we were born in an enviroment w/o religion....we would invent one to explain the mysteries of the world. Now only that...but also they make great stories to tell kids...like superman and spiderman....it's a story of a hero with high moral standards and great power, something kids can look up to in awe and admiration.

Typically the less a society knows about the way the world works and the less entertainment options they have....the more gods they create. I always loved the romans....they were funny people....they conquer greece and were like...I like these stories...these are our new gods..BTW lets rename them...gods would love new names. Be like your neighbor coming over to spend the weekend, he likes your parents so he goes around showing everyone thier picture saying they are his mom/dad only he renamed them Frank and Mary. And thinking that your parents would actually like thier new names better....oh yeah and the fact athena used to be used to help the greeks win wars against the romans, eh..forget it, now she fights for rome. That's funny stuff to me...an entire civilization with no imagination of thier own.

----------------------

I have to take a second to tell you a bit about why I am interested in the whole IQ thing and religion....in your life you will meet people who just aren't quite "there"..I have met several...most I have met are ultra religious.

I will now tell you a story of a woman....she and thousands like her go to a place in Georgia called Conyers to witness Mary preform miracles. Surisingly enough there is a gift shop, video tapes, etc....I'd say the owner of this field is making a decent amount of coin.

These miracles to her are undisputable. Things such as seeing mary in a reflection in a window, rose petals falling from the sky, mary coming to the owner of the field at night and telling her stories.

Most of the miracles have not been seen by this woman, it's hearsay....one miracle of roses turning to gold got her all excited and she wanted to talk about it to me.....although I ALWAYS talked logical back to her and tried to show her that not everything should be taken forgranted and usually tried to avoid this type of talk (I was her boss, religion in the work place is not a good topic, neither is idle chatting when you should be at your desk)...

So roseries are turning gold....right? I say "did yours turn gold?"...no....but she met a woman who had this happen to her...so I was like "do you know this woman well?"...no...but she did see the gold rosery beads..."how did you know she didn't buy them gold?"...because she could see they weren't gold between the beads...ok...that's messed up....

OK if I had unlimited powers I would turn the rosery to actual gold, all the way through....not just gold paint.

If I was working on behalf of jesus/god etc...why would my miracle have anything to do with gold? I mean what does gold/wealth have to do with religion? What would god be trying to do? Buy my faith? Turn the rosery into granite...same effect to me...it's still a miracle of the same amplitude correct? Transmutation or whatever that's called. I mean one of the rules of that faith is not to horde wealth, what good does a gold rosery do you? I mean hell now you should technically melt it down and sell it to help those in need.....but that wasn't on anyone who "witnessed" this miracles mind was it? No...thier eyes were green.

On top of this mary was saying some pretty damn weird shit. She was telling everyone to essentially lock themselves up safe with guns and food and prepare to kill people....this is not good....killing is not good....the bible states this....but wait!!! You see because people use credit cards now instead of cash....this means the end of the world is coming....people will get implants of a number..the number of the beast..and this will mean they are under satans control now...and you must kill them.

WTF? So essentially for tax purposes you want people to avoid using credit cards because it's easier to hide cash income....asay maybe if you were oh....selling religous goods from your farm house on the weekends.....and you want people prepared to fight any sort of way the government has of monitering your where abouts? I mean this would be great to hide your identity if say maybe you were afraid of people knowing who you are...because your a con artist....I mean this stuff is crazy.

They had this woman who had very little free cash hording a years supply of food in her small home...buying guns....teaching her 6 yr old son how to use the guns...to kill people...telling her children horrible stories about satan and the end of the world and how it was coming REALLY SOON.

What type of effect would that have on a child as he grows up? I think religion will definately have an impact on this kids life.

What do you think about this passage of the Bible?

=================================================
1 Timothy 2


A Call to Prayer

1 First of all, then, I urge that (1) entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 (2) for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of (3) God our Savior,
4 (4) who desires all men to be (5) saved and to (6) come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is (7) one God, and (8) one mediator also between God and men, the (9) man Christ Jesus,
6 who (10) gave Himself as a ransom for all, the (11) testimony given at (12) the proper time.
7 (13) For this I was appointed a preacher and (14) an apostle ((15) I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of (16) the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8 Therefore (17) I want the men (18) in every place to pray, (19) lifting up (20) holy hands, without wrath and dissension.


Women Instructed

9 Likewise, I want (21) women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
11 (22) A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12 (23) But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13 (24) For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but (25) the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in (26) faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

================================================
And men only need respond. If you are female and a Christian, you should keep quiet and make babies. The men will teach you. i especially like the part that you are supposed to pray for your leaders and stay peaceful. Baaaahh Baaaaaah

Pilsburry wrote: I agree that there might be professions of people actually on a typically higher IQ level then the average that might accept religion more...such as *possibly* Psychologists....and I would really like to see what they think about religion...I mean they see people who hear god talking to them in thier head telling them to do bad things etc...or good things....

Historians generally I don't accept as an intelligent bunch of people, I'd have to see thier IQ scores as an average.....I don't view History as an itelligent subject...there is nothing to be dones, no cognitive thinking, just memorization. I'm not saying they are all retards, I'm sure some are extremely bright like people who track down the ruins of lost cities etc and peice together who life was back then, but the bulk of historians sit in libraries and simply memorize facts from books that the few smart historians wrote.

I dont know where you are getting your information about historians, but it is wrong. Historians dont just memorize dates and such. Most of them deal with theory and finding the underlying reasons and causal chains that lead to certain events. This allows them to theorize what will happen in the future as well. There is a ton of thought that goes into this.

Also, I take offense to the opinions being thrown around here that somehow those who choose to believe in a higher power than themselves are less intelligent that all the "enlightened" atheists. I was born and raised within a Christian denomination. Although, I dont attend church as much as I probably should, nor do I feel I have as close a relationship to God as I should, I do still prescribe to the tenets and teachings of Christianity. I can tell you, I have been called many things, but I unintelligent is not one of them.

Religion is a matter of faith. Just as believing in some scientific theories is faith based. You choose to believe or not. I know for myself that from a logic standpoint, the existence of God makes OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more sense to me than a seemingly random and uncontrolled universe. I have a hard time embracing the ideas of chance bringing about so many key events to make life happen.

I think what I hear so many of you saying is that you have had either a bad experience or impression of organized religion. I can understand that and I know that is a reality for OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of people. However, that is not what Christianity, the one religion I am most familiar with, is about. It is about making personal choices and changing your own life because you want to not because someone is making you. If you dont have the heart or desire to change, you wont.

Elbryan Wyndon wrote:Lala
It did include those other groups. One of the surveys was done on Ivy league students from several decades.

I meant in the way the one poll had biologists, mathmeticians, and physicists separated. Its interesting to see what kind of differences exist between different formally educated groups.

I am agnostic. I am not conceited enough to believe that there isn't the possibility of something bigger than us out there. We can't prove everything with science...yet. If there is something out there then it doesn't mean I have to worship it. I am my own man.

I had the mormon religion forced on me as a child by mother and grandmother. My father always let me decide what I wanted to believe. He was raised even more harshly than I was and turned into a devout atheist. I have read a lot of the bible and as a historical text it is a good source of information. There is some totally fucked up crazy shit in it though. The old testament is especially crazy but I like the history. It doesn't candy coat the evil shit that went on. The new testament was obviously written in mind to control the masses. Don't even get me started on the Book of Mormon.

I just want to be left alone basicly and feel spiritual in my own way. I like meditation and I attend the Unitarian church occasionally. I don't force my views on others and I damn well don't want those fucking Jehovah's knocking on my door at 8am on saturday morning.

What happens after I die? Bury me in the north pole so the worms can't get to me as easily. =)

Deward

Adelrune Argenti wrote: Just as believing in some scientific theories is faith based. You choose to believe or not. I know for myself that from a logic standpoint, the existence of God makes OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more sense to me than a seemingly random and uncontrolled universe. I have a hard time embracing the ideas of chance bringing about so many key events to make life happen.

You must check your definition of theory my friend. Theories are tested hypothesis that have been proven true. Theories are only true until they have been proven otherwise. Scientists understand and accept the possiblity that their theories can be proven false. However any proof for or against a theory must be testable independently to validate the hypothesis. If you were to apply this to religion and equate a belief in a theory to faith, you would then have to accept the possibility that you "do not have it all figured out"and that your theory, Christianity, may not be right, and you my friend would no longer have faith and would be agnostic. I was a physics major in college.

No one is going to say christianity has made a positive impact in many people. I possess those same values of treating others kindly but it does not mean I and religious nor does it come from a religous upbringing. I never went to Church and never could understand why people believe the things they do. It does not logically follow that because the Bible tells you to do good things..then the core doctrine is true. i cannot believe that we all came from Adam and Eve when there is physical evidence to prove otherwise.(at least tell me Adam and Eve were monkeys)

Evolution is a scientific theory, correct? However, there are documented instances of micro-evolution. However the theory of macro-evolution lacks definitive proof and requires a certain amount of faith to accept it as true. You are forced to rely on evidence from other sources to base this belief.

Also, the size and age of the universe is something that scientists apply certain constants to and then extrapolate from there. This again requires a certain amount of faith in the proven scientific facts as well as them remaining constant. We dont have any empirical evidence to support even that the speed of light has been consistent throughout the ages. Laws can change based on outside influences and other factors.

Therefore, there are some scientific theories that do require a certain amount of faith. I stand by my assertion that both religion and science can and are faith based in certain areas.

You still miss the point. You are correct that scientist use theories to build on other theories. Scientists accept the possiblity that they are wrong in this assumption. You can not or you'd be agnostic. Plus theories are hypothesis that have been tested as in the case you have alluded to.

Scientists test to find the limits of truth. Christians blind themselves to truth in light of conflicting evidence. Doesn't mean that they are bad people...just misguided. Parental guidance puts you on the path.

I was taught to believe in Santa Clause. I eventually got old enough to see that he was not true. i tested it. Santa didn't come down the chimney. The perfect nature of a belief in the here after is that once you are dead it is too late to tell your tale.

Adelrune Argenti wrote: I dont know where you are getting your information about historians, but it is wrong. Historians dont just memorize dates and such. Most of them deal with theory and finding the underlying reasons and causal chains that lead to certain events. This allows them to theorize what will happen in the future as well. There is a ton of thought that goes into this. (1)

Also, I take offense to the opinions being thrown around here that somehow those who choose to believe in a higher power than themselves are less intelligent that all the "enlightened" atheists. I was born and raised within a Christian denomination. Although, I dont attend church as much as I probably should, nor do I feel I have as close a relationship to God as I should, I do still prescribe to the tenets and teachings of Christianity. I can tell you, I have been called many things, but I unintelligent is not one of them. (2)

(1) First off I think you might be incorrect, most historians tend to quote the theories of other smart historians, they don't actually come up with thier own theories. And actually.....it's a field with little money to be made, and no benefit to mankind....so the very fact they delved into that field says something about thier intelligence. Here is a tip for the younger readers...when you pick a major in college, try to pick something you can make useful for personal gain or to aid society....don't pick something stupid with no practical use....might as well major in dump taking. I find some history interesting, but the level of detail required is really not as high as historians lead you to think...it has no impact on our lives. I admit my view on this is biased....I might be a bit harsh on historians, but I'm sure you see some truth to what I just said. Certain mysteries are interesting and I'd love to see them solved like stonehendge was more then just a calander I think, and the aztec stuff...easter island, the engineering principles of the pyrimids maybe...the exact site a certain war occurend on 3000 years ago? Not really important nor that interesting.

(2) I didn't say religious people are stupid exactly what I wanted to see was if I was correct in saying most intelligent/educated people toss aside the notion of religion. The studies I cited state I am most likely correct, so really I wasn't the one saying it..the 100 studies or so cited on my 2nd link state it for me with enough evidence to back it up. However based on the studies or even my feelings, it is possible for you to be smart and not toss aside the notion of a higher power....it was just to prove the chance of you doing so was higher because of your intelligence...I think you read more into it.

Dunno I don't have a religion but a philosophy or belief. Closest thing to a religion/philosophy I would be is Zen Buddhist. That doesn't mean you
are a monk and wearing robes. But my beliefs fall more closely to a cross between Wicca and Zen Buddhism.

If it makes you a better person and not give hate to others then it's a good thing. The only thing I can't stand is x practicer of x religion saying people of y and z religion will suffer eternal pain or will not have a good afterlife because they don't follow x religion. Most religions have a common ground to them.

Lalanae wrote: Your history is skewed...

Native Americans were NOT killed off in the name of (or because of) religion. They were murdered because they were an inconvenience.

Have you researched this subject thoroughly? I spent two semesters studying race, religion, and discrimination with an emphasis on Native Americans.

I agree that they were murdered because they were an inconvenience, but I think it's more complex than that - religion played a BIG part.

Dr. David Chidester (http://www.allbookstores.com/browse/Aut ... r,%20David) disagrees:

"Europeans, therefore, not only perceived that the Indians had no rights to the land, but that they had an ethical and religious obligation to take control of it and use it according to the demands of scripture. This linkage of the Bible and agriculture was institutionalized in the "Civiliation Fund" established by Congress in 1819. Funds in the amount of $10,000 per year were allocated for the purpose of instructing Indians in the techniques of agriculture and in literacy so they could read the Bible. Congress declared: "The Bible will be their book, and they will grow up in the habits of morality and industry, leave the chase to those of minds less cultured, and become useful members of society." Unless the Native Americans were themselves useful in using the land for biblically mandated settled agriculture, the land could be legitimately approportioned by those determined to put it to such use."

Consider the Manifest Destiny belief, where the new American colonists were likened to the Israelites who were ordered by God to slaughter the Philistines that were in the promised land.

The Native Americans were considered barbarious heathens that practised evil religions. Their rituals were made to be illegal and they were killed for participating in the Ghost Dance, or the Sun Dance BECAUSE they were not Christian.

To dismiss religion as a motivating factor in colonization is ridiculous.

Look it up all you way cool anti-religion folks. Atheism breeds the most selfish people there can be, I mean, why not fuck over anyone and everyone while you pass through life? The Godless have no reason to listen to that little voice in the back of their head

Bullshit.

Enlightened Self-Interest.

Try looking that one up, punk.

Evolution is a scientific theory, correct? However, there are documented instances of micro-evolution. However the theory of macro-evolution lacks definitive proof and requires a certain amount of faith to accept it as true. You are forced to rely on evidence from other sources to base this belief.

Also, the size and age of the universe is something that scientists apply certain constants to and then extrapolate from there. This again requires a certain amount of faith in the proven scientific facts as well as them remaining constant. We dont have any empirical evidence to support even that the speed of light has been consistent throughout the ages. Laws can change based on outside influences and other factors.

Therefore, there are some scientific theories that do require a certain amount of faith. I stand by my assertion that both religion and science can and are faith based in certain areas.

Misstated. Faith would indicate you accept these theories are the truth and need not be debated.

Scientific theories are continually poked, prodded at and tested over and over again to see if they hold. If they do not, they are discarded and a new theory evolves.

To dismiss religion as a motivating factor in colonization is ridiculous.

By "colonization" I assume you really mean the "de-colonization" (if you will) of the native Americans, and not the motivation behind the English "colonizing" in the first place. They are two exclusive issues.

Native Americans were killed because they retaliated when their lands were being taken by English settlers. Religion played a very secondary role to the basic geographical greed of the English. Yes some of them tried to convert the natives, and told themselves that the natives were "heathens," but that is not the reason why they were killed. Considering them heathens may have helped to psychologically soothe the minds of the English, but so did the conceit that they were primitive and incapable of establishing a unified government to protect their lands. It was as much socio-economic prejudice as it was religion. The natives were eliminated because they were troublesome to settlers. Religion and other prejudicial factors played psychologically on some English to help them justify their greed.

As a Wiccan I don't belive I truely fall into any of the proposed voting options and feel kind of offended. Technically Wicca is a "defined" and "recognized" religion by the United States, but it's not an "organized" religion either.

Soriathus Serpentine wrote:As a Wiccan I don't belive I truely fall into any of the proposed voting options and feel kind of offended. Technically Wicca is a "defined" and "recognized" religion by the United States, but it's not an "organized" religion either.

OMG I hope you are joking that you are "offended"

But to answer your question, giving yourself any sort of religious title such as Christian or Wiccan is organized religion. The other option is for people who believe in a higher power but not under the belief system of any particular religion.

I had an english professor who referred to wiccans as california witches. that always made me laugh.

Hmm, i am Christian. I do however have a question for the majority of you.

Why is it so hard for people to believe in something they do not see?

I am not trying to accuse anyone of being wrong, and im not saying im right. Just want a answer.

We didnt see the beginning of the Universe, or World for that matter. Doesnt science serve the same purpose as religion? If you dont believe in a supreme being, you most likely believe in Science. Why? It gives you an explanation to how everything was created.

Call me retarded or one minded.

Topper

Topper wrote:Hmm, i am Christian. I do however have a question for the majority of you.

Why is it so hard for people to believe in something they do not see?

I am not trying to accuse anyone of being wrong, and im not saying im right. Just want a answer.

We didnt see the beginning of the Universe, or World for that matter. Doesnt science serve the same purpose as religion? If you dont believe in a supreme being, you most likely believe in Science. Why? It gives you an explanation to how everything was created.

Call me retarded or one minded.

Topper

they need links, if it doesn't have a link it didn't happen /sarcasm off

It's hard for me to "beleive in somethign you can't see" for the one obvious reason....if there is no evidence what-so-ever that something exists then you need to take it with a grain of salt.

If the person with the crazy ideas comes back and asks for money then it's slightly less beleivable then before.

If a guy begins to contradict himself it's another strike against his stories.

Then if he starts asking for you to do things...it gets even more hard to swallow. Granted in this respect the churches "favors" are usually pretty reasonable.

If they use phantom rewards or phantom scare tactics to get you to do what they want it begins to give me a bad taste in my mouth.

Now you take that and weigh it against science....where you can investigate what they said with facts....well I prefer science.

As for the creation of the universe, yes both science and religion are used to answer that riddle....

Science has several theories, most of them very realistic and seem possible given what we know wbout how things work and facts left behind from that time.

Religion has several theories also depending on what religion you look in to....none of them have ties to how things work as far as we can tell. None of them have any facts to back them up. Most of them are really out there in left field.

I mean how old were you guys when you stopped beleiving in santa, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy? Same deal...there was actually MORE evidence to support those beings then there is jesus or god...because you would wake up and see gifts....and people would back up thier existance just like god/jesus...only difference is eventually someone let the cat out of the bag because those characters depended on MANY people keeping the secret and actually risk exposure planting the "Gifts"....Luckily Jesus doesn't need all the parents to play along in the game and instead of giving gifts, they like to receive them via a third party at a church. Thus exposure is minimized and the turn a profit instead of a loss. Only a few people know if there really was a jesus that could cause mass exposure....and they all died thousands of years ago heh.

Topper wrote:Hmm, i am Christian. I do however have a question for the majority of you.

Why is it so hard for people to believe in something they do not see?

I am not trying to accuse anyone of being wrong, and im not saying im right. Just want a answer.

We didnt see the beginning of the Universe, or World for that matter. Doesnt science serve the same purpose as religion? If you dont believe in a supreme being, you most likely believe in Science. Why? It gives you an explanation to how everything was created.

Call me retarded or one minded.

Topper

I have an invisible bunny who sits on my shoulder and is the cause of all rain. How do I know he exists? Well, it rains doesn't it? Why is it so hard for you to believe in my invisible bunny? Just because you can't see him doesn't mean he doesn't exist!

Now do you see why we're skeptical?

Topper wrote:Hmm, i am Christian. I do however have a question for the majority of you.

Why is it so hard for people to believe in something they do not see?

I am not trying to accuse anyone of being wrong, and im not saying im right. Just want a answer.

We didnt see the beginning of the Universe, or World for that matter. Doesnt science serve the same purpose as religion? If you dont believe in a supreme being, you most likely believe in Science. Why? It gives you an explanation to how everything was created.

Call me retarded or one minded.

Topper

For me, it's not really about "not believing in something I can't see". It's about believing in something I can see. There is no proof that god does or does not exist. There is no proof of how the universe was created, or even *if* it was.

However, that does not mean there is no evidence. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence. I'll give you two basic examples.

First, we cannot prove evolution. However, all of the physical evidence suggests it did occur. The only contradictory evidence is in religious texts, which are *not* based on evidence.

Second, we cannot prove the age of the Earth. However, all of the physical evidence suggests it is billions of years (4.5 is the latest estimate afaik). Again, the only contradictory evidence is in religious texts.

I will take it one step futher, though this is totally my opinion. If the Earth is billions of years old. If humans have been around for at most 9 million years (that we can tell so far), and evolved arbitrarily at best. How can you possibly rationalize that this planet was created for us?

Almost every mainstream religion depends on the idea that humans are the center of the universe. To me, the evidence suggests quite the opposite.

Doesnt science serve the same purpose as religion?

Absolutely not.



Science is the pursuit of knowledge.

Religion is the admitting that you don't know and that it's OK to remain ignorant.


I know that's a bit brutal, but there is a very fundamental difference between the two approaches.

What i meant by "doesnt science serve the same purpose as religion" , was that you believe in science (in this one subject) as would believe in religion. Scientist back then tried to take a non-religious approach to answering questions.

According to science we could be doing everything backwards, and not perceive it as going backwards. So forgive me if i dont believe in all science theories.

Thanks for ya'lls responses. Didnt want to start anything.

Topper

Hrmmm.


The thing is, science isn't a matter of belief. Belief implies faith, and science is endless questioning and retesting, the antithesis of faith.

I suppose you could equate the seeking of knowledge to a religion, but the terms 'science' and 'religion' are at opposite ends of the 'belief' spectrum.

Only those truly ignorant of derivation of knowledge would claim to know based on science. We have many unknowns in any scientific constants put in place for experiments. Experimentation is just done to the point that there is little plausible chance that something else could occur. There is also a matter of funding in many experiments. In many instances funding is limited so people look to the next best thing to reproduce something hoping that it would be similar enough to the real thing. Science is based on "educated guess. That is it. If you find a scientist willing to commit to anything 100% he is either foolish, or just out of college.
K. Thanx. Drivethru.

That being said, religion is a step that some scientists are willing to take, and for others it is too large a step.

This whole argument attempting to place those who believe in religion have lower IQs is also quite ludicrous. I'll note that that exact statement was never made, but that is clearly where the argument was travelling.

I think some people are confusing faith with dogma. Faith is belief without proof. Dogma is "believe exactly what we tell you or go to Hell, infidel."

Only those truly ignorant of derivation of knowledge would claim to know based on science.

Science has nothing to do with 'knowing'.

Neither does religion, for that matter.

[quote="Fallanthas"][quote]

Religion is the admitting that you don't know and that it's OK to remain ignorant.

quote]
Falla, you can't be serious. Calling all religious people ignorant? Come on now....I am by no means super religious, but I am not so brazen to claim to absolutely know that a supreme being does not exist. People say there is no proof that god exists--true, but do you have proof that god doesn't exist? You may not believe in religion, and who knows, you may be right, but you are way too conceited if you think that you are definitely right and religious people are idiots and definetly wrong.
Science can say, well, the universe was created by the "big bang" 4.5 billion years ago. OK then, where did the material that created the "big bang" come from? That material just poofed out of thin-air (was there thin-air then?) This "scientific" explanation sounds just as stupid to me as any religious explanation.
There are simply some things (existance of a god, how/if the universe was created or came into being) that neither science nor religion nor anything humans can ever think of can ever explain.