Implications about the missing WMD...

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 9, 2003, 10:34 am

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030606.html

This guy makes some excellent points. Now, who is going to take the fall if the public grows a collective brain and begins to feel betrayed? Looks like Blair is taking plenty of heat in England. I just wish we'd turn up the flame a bit more here in the states. Somebody has to be held accountable for this.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 9, 2003, 11:23 am

This is never gonna amount to more than pissing into the wind here in the US. Bush did exactly what the majority of American citizens wanted: kicked towelhead ass in retribution for 9/11.

Yes, I know the Iraqis had little/nothing to do with it, but Saddam had the bad judgement to cockfence with the UN at the same time we were already kicking Afghanistan. It was very easy for Bush & Co. to turn the anger we had against the terrorists in Al Qaeda onto the Iraqis.

Personally, I'm glad we got rid of him. He'd been dicking around with the UN resolutions for a dozen years already. As compliance with those resolutions was part of the agreement to let Saddam stay in power, we were perfectly justified ousting his ass. I don't know if he had WMD or not, but I do know: 1) Americans don't have the attention span to continuously watch another country and 2) the UN lacks the balls to force compliance with anything.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 9, 2003, 5:15 pm

Masteen got it right. I did expect to see WMD's found in some form, however the lack thereof doesn't change my support for Bush and for the invasion of Iraq. Bush and crew gave a number of compelling reasons to invade. The subsequent findings of gross human rights abuses give enough justification after the fact.

One last argument... and I've used it before... why in hell didn't dufas Hussein just 'fess up? His stupidity is reason alone to oust his ass. And who cares if he used to be a CIA mole... just consider Uncle Sam sent him a termination notice.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 9, 2003, 5:26 pm

After the fact, sure.
However, what if this wasn't the case (postulate for me, I beg)? What if Saddam just had a horrible image and was a decent person (I know, use your imagination)?

You see, this preemptive bullshit is the exact reason why I will never vote for anyone related to the Bush family again. He went in there blind and took a crap shoot at validating this war.

In short, he sent people to fight and die based upon opinion and not fact.

Fuck him and I hope he burns in hell for it.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 9, 2003, 5:52 pm

I wanted proof of WMD for an invasion, I never got it, thus I was never for the war. We cant go around invading every country we dont like. I want to see how this will affect the elections.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 9, 2003, 5:55 pm

Acies wrote:After the fact, sure.
However, what if this wasn't the case (postulate for me, I beg)? What if Saddam just had a horrible image and was a decent person (I know, use your imagination)?

You see, this preemptive bullshit is the exact reason why I will never vote for anyone related to the Bush family again. He went in there blind and took a crap shoot at validating this war.

In short, he sent people to fight and die based upon opinion and not fact.

Fuck him and I hope he burns in hell for it.

Good deal... you can vote for Hillary in '08 my young impressionable friend!

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 9, 2003, 6:00 pm

Metanis wrote:
Acies wrote:After the fact, sure.
However, what if this wasn't the case (postulate for me, I beg)? What if Saddam just had a horrible image and was a decent person (I know, use your imagination)?

You see, this preemptive bullshit is the exact reason why I will never vote for anyone related to the Bush family again. He went in there blind and took a crap shoot at validating this war.

In short, he sent people to fight and die based upon opinion and not fact.

Fuck him and I hope he burns in hell for it.
Good deal... you can vote for Hillary in '08 my young impressionable friend!

Rather Hillary than an godless hypocritical warmonger.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 9, 2003, 6:11 pm

I believe Dubya is guilty of minipulating information of the highest and most important nature and presenting them to the American public as fact. Call me crazy, but yes, that bothers me. Dubya and his cronies are the most untrustworthy crowd I could ever imagine. I would just like to see all the evil schemes they plot come back and bite them in the ass.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » June 9, 2003, 6:12 pm

Rather Hillary than an godless hypocritical warmonger

Actually Acies, Mr Bush isn't "godless" and thats probably part of the problem...

As for the article, I doubt that anyone would get very far in trying move on an impeachment: it would have to be proven that Bush willfully misled/misused intelligence reports. With some of the allegations, he could claim he reviewed what was given to him, which was possibly screened at other levels, to feed him what he wanted to see, but which was accurate, as far as he knew. Deniability. All sharp politicians try to maintain it, and George W. Bush, for all his faults, is a sharp politician or he wouldn't be the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet.

Now if a "manager" or "leader" has subordinates feeding him false information, it makes me question the competancy of such a person... but thats an issue for you Americans to ponder next November

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 9, 2003, 6:20 pm

Wulfran wrote:
Rather Hillary than an godless hypocritical warmonger
Actually Acies, Mr Bush isn't "godless" and thats probably part of the problem...

As for the article, I doubt that anyone would get very far in trying move on an impeachment: it would have to be proven that Bush willfully misled/misused intelligence reports. With some of the allegations, he could claim he reviewed what was given to him, which was possibly screened at other levels, to feed him what he wanted to see, but which was accurate, as far as he knew. Deniability. All sharp politicians try to maintain it, and George W. Bush, for all his faults, is a sharp politician or he wouldn't be the leader of the most powerful nation on the planet.

Now if a "manager" or "leader" has subordinates feeding him false information, it makes me question the competancy of such a person... but thats an issue for you Americans to ponder next November

Will be an interesting election for sure.

Neost · Post by **Neost** » June 9, 2003, 7:09 pm

Electing Hillary Clinton to the presidency would be the worst mistake the United States citizenry could ever make.

I would have to repent my sins and move to <convulses> CANADA!!!11!!

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2003, 7:12 pm

I think Bush is an idiot for not having the CIA 'plant' some gear in Iraq.

Of course the fact that he hasn't done that kind of disproves some of the horrible things that are said about him. All of you who are so eager to criticize should be mindful that as the President of the United States of America, you have to rely upon the best information you have at a given time from your best advisors. I'm pretty sure Bush would have liked the reports of WMD to be true as well. I'm certain that would make his job easier.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 9, 2003, 7:13 pm

I'm convinced that nothing could be worse than Dubya and Co. Nothing.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 9, 2003, 9:08 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:I'm convinced that nothing could be worse than Dubya and Co. Nothing.

You didn't live through Jimmy Carter.

And you certainly didn't pay attention during the Clinton years.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2003, 9:40 pm

Metanis wrote:
Fairweather Pure wrote:I'm convinced that nothing could be worse than Dubya and Co. Nothing.
You didn't live through Jimmy Carter.

And you certainly didn't pay attention during the Clinton years.

Actually he and I both lived through Jimmy Carter. Surely even an idiot like yourself can subtract 28 from 2003.

Having said that, Fairweather, your statement disappoints me. There are many, many things that could be worse than Dubya and Co. Fortunately, we don't live in those places.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 9, 2003, 9:58 pm

Aranuil wrote:Actually he and I both lived through Jimmy Carter. Surely even an idiot like yourself can subtract 28 from 2003.

I'm sure you two were the most scathing political commentators at your respective pre-schools.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 9, 2003, 10:23 pm

It's true. I wrote a letter to Reagan in kindergarten, and he sent me one back which I brought to 'show-and-tell'. Good times!

At any rate, it doesn't change the fact that Metanis is an idiot!

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » June 9, 2003, 11:31 pm

I'm very concerned with the possibilty that our leader misled us to achieve his goals. What downright terrifies me is the likelihood that my countrymen will be too bamboozled to raise the proper ruckus.

It's been posted before, but deserves a refresher:

Hermann Goering wrote:Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Neost · Post by **Neost** » June 9, 2003, 11:44 pm

Carter was inept and ineffectual.

Reagan was pretty scary, hell even the Iranians and Russians were scared of him.

Bush version 1.0 wasn't as bad as everyone thought he was, but his forte was foreign relations and he let the economy slide, quite to his detriment.

Bill Clinton is a good man and very intelligent. I believe he did what he thought was best for the country and his presidency would be one of the most well remembered were it not for his inability to keep his dick in his pants and republican attempts to make a mountain out of a whitewater molehill.

Bush version 1.5 is trying, and may see himself as the saviour of the good ole' USA in a volatile world that he must lead us through.

I've experienced something most of you haven't. It's a little know creature affectionately referred to as Billary. Billary is a bit scary, but the Bill side of the personality kept the Hillary side somewhat in check.

Hillary KNOWS she knows what's best for you. Period. You have no clue what you need or what's best for you, but she knows. Kind of like Big Brother knew what was best for the collective good. I don't give a shit what her book says, she knew Bill was lying about Monica, but she also knew the political gains she could make by staying with him. Don't ever think there's a normal bit of human emotion in that body. She's a political animal the likes of which you have never seen.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 10, 2003, 9:39 am

Last night on "Too Many Stars", a Comedy Central benefit program, Darrell Hammond came out and did his Bill Clinton impersonation. Anyway, "Bill" apologized for kinda dropping out of the limelight and explained he had been laying low for the past several years. He then asked the audiance "So, what's going on in politics lately?". "How's my budget surplus?". "Is world opinion of the United States still at an all time high?".

He said some other things, and although I was laughing, the point shot home. I cannot fathom how anyone can claim that the Bush Administration has done more for our country than the Clinton Administration. Clinton was the best administration I have lived through, and Dubya has been the worst.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 10, 2003, 9:50 am

it is sadly ironic that the Bush administration is now asking for its critics to give its weapons inspectors more time to find weapons programs.

I think this is a blow to the credibility of the US administration, and by extension the US government extending beyond this administration.

I would be interested to see if commentators like Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity who so voraciously attacked the UN weapons inspection team will turn the same level of skepticism towards our government.

The answer is of course no. Very few right wing commentators have the balls to stray from the party line. For example in the last 10 years when was the last time Rush Limbaugh had a major disagreement with anything the Republicans did?

I love my wife dearly, and get along with her very well, but i have at least one pretty significant disagreement with her per week!

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 10, 2003, 10:28 am

I like Hillary. However, I probably like her for the same reasons you hate her. She's honest, smart, independent, and always has the right answer, no matter how difficult the question. In her interviews lately for her book, people are coming at her with tough questions, and she slices through them wihtout even flinching. She has become hardened and knows how the game is played. She is an enigma of sorts, and I respect her for that.

I love how she worked through her personal issues with her husband and resolved to save the marriage, a decision that was purely hers mind you. That's a hard thing to do. I can only imagine how much harder it would be in their situation. And before you say it was purely for political reasons, I would beg to differ. She could do anything with or without Bill, and he knows it. She stepped out of his shadow long ago.

I don't even think she'll run for president, but if she did, I would vote for her. I feel she would choose above average people for her administration. I also feel she would be good for our country's reputation and hopefully change our country's spending priorities.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 10, 2003, 11:14 am

Hillary actually believes the bullshit that spews from her mouth, and that scares me.

I remember when she was on that crusade for socialized medicine, a friend of mine (poli sci major and a liberal) and I did a little research project. The best numbers we could come up with had the government tallying up a deficit 10 times greater than our current one every year.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 10, 2003, 11:23 am

i dont really know how viable she would be as a presidential candidate.

she certainly has ideas that dont jive with a fair portion of the electorate.

But she drew fire from right wing talking heads long before her failed endeavor in Health Care reform. In my opinion it was simply rooted in the fact that she was an independent aggressive female. Because she was drawing heavy fire long before most people knew anything about her politics. They just knew she was a woman, a lawyer, and didnt always have a demure smile on her face. She kind of looked like a bitch and they didnt like her.

I'm not sure i would vote for her, but i dont really know what her political opinions on a lot of things are. I know what other people have said her opinions were, but they all had axes to grind

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 10, 2003, 11:53 am

I remember when she was on that crusade for socialized medicine, a friend of mine (poli sci major and a liberal) and I did a little research project. The best numbers we could come up with had the government tallying up a deficit 10 times greater than our current one every year.

You talk as though socialized medicine is not a valid goal for our country. I would argue that to no end. Take 1/20th of our defence budget and see how much that affects your figures. Also, do you think the socialized medicine would have fucked our deficit up any worse than it currently is thanks to Bush's war and everthing that brings along with it?

It's all about priorities...

miir · Post by **miir** » June 10, 2003, 12:35 pm

The best numbers we could come up with had the government tallying up a deficit 10 times greater than our current one every year.

Somehow I doubt that a socialized medicine program would increase the deficit by 2 trillion dollars annually... perhaps you meant 10%.

Care to post anything from your 'research project' to back up that totally fuxing ridiculous claim?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 10, 2003, 12:39 pm

'free-market' medicine sure as hell isnt working out for any party except maybe pharmaceutical research companies and malpractice attorneys.

tons of people who cant get insurance.

tons of doctors who cant make money because malpractice premiums are so high.

plenty of people already dont have free choice of healthcare providers because of the restrictions placed by their HMO or other program.

it is a system that has some serious fundamental problems, and while whatever Mrs. Clinton may have proposed might not have fixed it, at this point at least it was an effort.

An effort nobody else seems interested to make. Most likely because they are basically paid off by special interest groups not to intervene.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » June 10, 2003, 1:43 pm

If she does run, she's not going to win. She's alienating her own party right now. A lot of democrats think she is purposely drawing attention away from the Dem candidates so that none of them win. She wants Bush to win in 2004 so there isn't a Dem incumbent in 2008.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 10, 2003, 1:49 pm

miir wrote:
The best numbers we could come up with had the government tallying up a deficit 10 times greater than our current one every year.
Somehow I doubt that a socialized medicine program would increase the deficit by 2 trillion dollars annually... perhaps you meant 10%.

Care to post anything from your 'research project' to back up that totally fuxing ridiculous claim?

I meant the annual increase would be 10 times greater. Instead of increasing the deficit 3%, her plan would have increased it 30%.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » June 10, 2003, 3:27 pm

Hillary for President.....

/suicide

The next presidential election is going to be such a fucking mess.

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » June 10, 2003, 4:05 pm

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 10, 2003, 4:09 pm

Arsecn wrote:

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 10, 2003, 4:10 pm

Aranuil wrote:
Metanis wrote:
Fairweather Pure wrote:I'm convinced that nothing could be worse than Dubya and Co. Nothing.
You didn't live through Jimmy Carter.

And you certainly didn't pay attention during the Clinton years.
Actually he and I both lived through Jimmy Carter. Surely even an idiot like yourself can subtract 28 from 2003.

Having said that, Fairweather, your statement disappoints me. There are many, many things that could be worse than Dubya and Co. Fortunately, we don't live in those places.

You guys were still sucking momma's tits when Jimmy Carter was President. Give me a break Aranuil, you know the point I was trying to make. Ferris is raising his pretty head again and thinking his shit don't stink.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 10, 2003, 4:16 pm

Metanis wrote:
Aranuil wrote:
Metanis wrote:
Fairweather Pure wrote:I'm convinced that nothing could be worse than Dubya and Co. Nothing.
You didn't live through Jimmy Carter.

And you certainly didn't pay attention during the Clinton years.
Actually he and I both lived through Jimmy Carter. Surely even an idiot like yourself can subtract 28 from 2003.

Having said that, Fairweather, your statement disappoints me. There are many, many things that could be worse than Dubya and Co. Fortunately, we don't live in those places.
You guys were still sucking momma's tits when Jimmy Carter was President. Give me a break Aranuil, you know the point I was trying to make. Ferris is raising his pretty head again and thinking his shit don't stink.

I reiterate:

:vv_fucked:

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 10, 2003, 4:19 pm

Metanis wrote:
Aranuil wrote:
Metanis wrote:
Fairweather Pure wrote:I'm convinced that nothing could be worse than Dubya and Co. Nothing.
You didn't live through Jimmy Carter.

And you certainly didn't pay attention during the Clinton years.
Actually he and I both lived through Jimmy Carter. Surely even an idiot like yourself can subtract 28 from 2003.

Having said that, Fairweather, your statement disappoints me. There are many, many things that could be worse than Dubya and Co. Fortunately, we don't live in those places.
You guys were still sucking momma's tits when Jimmy Carter was President. Give me a break Aranuil, you know the point I was trying to make. Ferris is raising his pretty head again and thinking his shit don't stink.

Damn I wish I was sucking Tit right this minute.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » June 10, 2003, 4:50 pm

A new study shows that sucking tit every day can be a major health benefit. I should find that article.

fear my derail!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 10, 2003, 4:52 pm

Niffoni wrote:A new study shows that sucking tit every day can be a major health benefit. I should find that article.

fear my derail!

Woot!!

noel · Post by **noel** » June 10, 2003, 5:00 pm

Metanis wrote:You guys were still sucking momma's tits when Jimmy Carter was President. Give me a break Aranuil, you know the point I was trying to make. Ferris is raising his pretty head again and thinking his shit don't stink.

And obviously this means there's no way in hell I could have an opinion on his presidency...

Danke schoen, darling, danke schoen,
Thank you for all the joy and pain.
Picture show, second balcony, was the place we'd meet,
Second seat, go Dutch treat, you were sweet.
Danke schoen, darling, danke schoen,
Save those lies, darlin' don't explain.
I recall Central Park in Fall,
How you tore your dress, what a mess, I confess, that's not all.
Danke schoen, darling, danke schoen,
Thank you for walks down Lover's Lane,
I can see, hearts carved on a tree,
Letters intertwine, for all time, yours and mine, that was fine.
Danke schien, darling, danke schoen,
Thank you for seeing me again.
Though we go on our separate ways,
Still the mem'ry stays, for always,
My heart says, danke schoen.
Danke schoen, Oh darlin' danke shoen,
I said thank you for, mmmm, seein' me again.
Though we go on our separate ways, Still the mem'ry stays, for always,
My heart says, danke schoen. Danke shoen, auf weidershein, Danke shoen.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 10, 2003, 5:04 pm

Ferris Buler, you're my hero!

Neost · Post by **Neost** » June 10, 2003, 5:22 pm

I like Hillary. However, I probably like her for the same reasons you hate her. She's honest, smart, independent, and always has the right answer, no matter how difficult the question.

That's become your typical response around here. Make a blanket statement assuming you know the reasons why someone holds an opinion different from yours. Don't try to make it sound like she's a virtuous individual that I am spewing hate against because she's "honest, smart, independant".

I'd disagree greatly with the honest part. I do agree that she is an intelligent, independant woman and there's not a thing wrong with that. But to argue that she's honest is turning a blind eye to the fact that she is a politician who wants to impose her socialistic views on the rest of the United States. She, like Bill (who I do admire for his intelligence) will say anything to further her political career and grow her power base.

And in case you missed the main point of my post, I lived most of my life in a state with Bill as Governor and Hillary pushing from behind. She was manipulative then, and is just as manipulative now. Can you fathom a guess as to why she went to New York to run for the Senate instead of returning to her home state? It's because she knew that Arkansans would never vote her into office.

I was a yellow-dog democrat for a long time. I worked on Bill's political campaigns back when he first ran for attorney general and again on each of his successive gubernatorial campaigns. The one election he lost to republican candidate Frank White was because of Hillary's antics. She faded into the background and he handily won the subsequent election. So don't think for a second she won't compromise her integrity for a bit of political gain.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 10, 2003, 5:33 pm

What constitutes her "socialist views" other than universal health care?

For the record I know little about her other than her health care position.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 10, 2003, 5:44 pm

I'd just like to add that you can take your stuffy, ultra-conservative, age-discrimination, and shove it up your ass, Metanis.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 10, 2003, 6:02 pm

Hillary is honest in the sense that you can ask her a question directly to her face, and you will get a blunt, non-blinking, answer. Her answers are often not what you want to hear, but I feel they are sincere responses, which is better than the majority of political BS I hear day in and day out.

Hillary is a politician at heart, and all politicians seek out the best opportunities to spread thier power and influence. In that sense, she went to New York because there is more power and influence there than in po-dunk Arkansas. I'm sure she never actually considered running for office there after being First Lady. Besides, I lived in Arkansas for 6 years, that state is hardley the bastion if modern culture.

VeeshanVault

Implications about the missing WMD...

Implications about the missing WMD...

Re: Implications about the missing WMD...