Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

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Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Winnow »

Must be nice to be a religious figurehead! Maybe he should take a few kids to molest with him inside the popemobile to spite his followers.

Don't give me the same old line, "a few people don't make the religion bad" bullshit. It's been this way for 1,000 years.

You (Catholics) should drop your religion like a bad habit and ask for forgiveness that you were duped into such a horrible cult.

To be fair, feel free to bag on Atheists in return. Happy Easter!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36131434/ns ... ws-europe/
Vatican: Pope has immunity in sex abuse trials

Legal official: Benedict does not have to testify because he is head of state


updated 6:17 a.m. MT, Thurs., April 1, 2010

VATICAN CITY - Pope Benedict, accused by victims' lawyers of being ultimately responsible for a cover-up of sexual abuse of children by priests, cannot be called to testify at any trial because he has immunity as a head of state, a top Vatican legal official said on Thursday.

The interview with Giuseppe dalla Torre, head of the Vatican's tribunal, was published in Italy's Corriere della Sera newspaper as Pope Benedict began Holy Thursday services in St Peter's Basilica and Catholics marked the most solemn week of the liturgical calendar, culminating on Sunday in Easter Day.

The pope did not refer in his sermon to the crisis of confidence sweeping the Church as almost daily revelations surface of sexual abuse of children in the past, accompanied by allegations of a cover-up.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

Dalla Torre outlined the Vatican's strategy to defend the pope from being forced to testify in several lawsuits concerning sexual abuse which are currently moving through the U.S. legal system.

"The pope is certainly a head of state, who has the same juridical status as all heads of state," he said, arguing he therefore had immunity from foreign courts.

Lawyers representing victims of sexual abuse by priests in several cases in the United States have said they would want the pope to testify in an attempt to try to prove the Vatican was negligent.

But the pope is protected by diplomatic immunity because more than 170 countries, including the United States, have diplomatic relations with the Vatican. They recognize it as a sovereign state and the pope as its sovereign head.

Dalla Torre rejected suggestions that U.S. bishops, some of whom have been accused of moving molesters from parish to parish instead of turning them in to police, could be considered Vatican employees, making their "boss" ultimately responsible.

'Church not a multi-national corporation'

"The Church is not a multi-national corporation," dalla Torre said. "He has (spiritual) primacy over the Church ... but every bishop is legally responsible for running a diocese."

Dalla Torre also rejected suggestions by some U.S. lawyers and critics of the Church that Vatican documents in 1962 and 2001 encouraged local bishops not to report sexual abuse cases.

He re-stated the Vatican's position that the documents, one of which called for procedures to remain secret, did not suggest to bishops that they should not report cases to authorities.

"Secrecy served above all to protect the victim and also the accused, who could turn out to be innocent, and it regarded only the canonical (church) trial and did not substitute the penal process," he said.

"There is nothing that prohibited anyone (in the Church) from giving information to civil authorities."

As the scandal has swept across Europe, bishops trying to contain damage have held special meetings with shaken Catholics.

On Wednesday night in Vienna, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn told an emotional gathering the Catholic Church as a whole must accept its guilt and its collective responsibility for sexual abuse committed by its members.

Vatican takes off the gloves

The Vatican has taken off the gloves in its response to media reports alleging the pope mishandled a series of abuse cases before he was elected.

It launched a frontal attack on the New York Times on Wednesday night by posting a long statement on its Web Site by Cardinal William J. Levada, who succeeded the pope as head of the Vatican's doctrinal department.

Levada asked the newspaper "to reconsider its attack mode about Pope Benedict XVI and give the world a more balanced view of a leader it can and should count on".

The Vatican has denied any cover-up over the abuse of 200 deaf boys in the United States by Reverend Lawrence Murphy from 1950 to 1974. The New York Times reported the Vatican and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, were warned about Murphy but he was not defrocked.

The Times said its reports were "based on meticulous reporting and documents."
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Ashur »

Now imagine if Cindy Sheehan's son was one of those kids...
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Bubba Grizz »

I believe it is the old condom theory, "It is better to have one and not need it than to rather need it and not have one".

I'd rather believe in God and find out he is not real rather than not believe in God and find out he is real.

I know it sounds trivialized. You won't sway me on this but you are welcome to try.

I won't say that I don't care what you think cause I really do.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Winnow »

Bubba Grizz wrote:I believe it is the old condom theory, "It is better to have one and not need it than to rather need it and not have one".

I'd rather believe in God and find out he is not real rather than not believe in God and find out he is real.

I know it sounds trivialized. You won't sway me on this but you are welcome to try.

I won't say that I don't care what you think cause I really do.

bubs, I wasn't talking about God. I was referring specifically to Catholicism and it's corruption being beyond ridiculous in its scope both presently and throughout history. That would be separate from believing in a God...dissociating God from Corrupt Organized Religion would be a good thing though. Those corrupt bastards could give a shit about you so cut them out of the picture and deal directly with the big man/woman.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Sabek »

I am a Christian, and honestly "religion" is really what's wrong with God.
Religion is ritual, and robotics. It has nothing to do with knowing and believing in God.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Bubba Grizz »

In that case let me say that I am all for believing in God but I have real issues with organized religion. The Catholic Church was the second leading cause of death in the middle ages, the first being the plague.

That being said, I think you need to be careful using a broad brush to label all Catholics this way. I understand it can be those in charge handling things wrong but that is due to an age old battle of secular law I believe. The Church will police it's own.

Also, I am sure that there are just as many other religions where the priests, pasters, what have you, that crave the boy cock. Just as I am sure that you'd find those who have the craving in politics or on American Idol.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I would agree wholeheartedly with the previous 2 posters. The religion and beliefs are not what ius bad.....it is the people who run the organizations that can be corrupt or manipulative that is a real concern.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Bubba Grizz wrote:I'd rather believe in God and find out he is not real rather than not believe in God and find out he is real.

This is called "Pascal's Wager" and your rational has been debated and IMO, easily debunked. It has many offshoots, one of which is the Atheist's Wager. The entire debate is old as time, but try looking up some information on Pascal's Wager for a logical theory on what appears to one of the major rationals behind your faith.

Keep in mind that I'm not calling you out or challenging you in any way. I'm just passing along interesting info.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Xyun »

Bubba Grizz wrote:I believe it is the old condom theory, "It is better to have one and not need it than to rather need it and not have one".

I'd rather believe in God and find out he is not real rather than not believe in God and find out he is real.
Why? What will happen if you don't believe and find out he is real?
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Kaldaur »

I know bait when I see it. Let me nibble!

The idea that it is better to believe because he might be real is based on the idea that there would be negative consequences for disbelief, like eternal damnnation and hellfire. This was okay in the 1100s, I guess, when you needed the serfs--who had nothing to look forward to in life--to keep working in the fields. "Don't want to work? Well, God wants you to! Don't believe in God? Well, you'll burn in hell if you don't!"

Now, however, it is ludicrous to believe in a God simply so you stay on his good side. Why would you believe and worship and pray to a God that, if you don't believe in him, would allow you to burn forever in pain and anguish? Is that something most loving parents would do? "Now kids, make sure the car is back in the garage by ten or you're grounded. Don't believe me? Well, fine, burn in hell." It's laughable. You shouldn't worship something simply because you're afraid of the consequences if you don't. That's not worship, that's fear. How could any creature who professes to love another sentence them to eternity in hell? Does God have a quota he has to meet, and if he doesn't have enough people worshiping him, he doesn't get his membership in the God of the Month club?
Your belief or disbelief would not make God cease to exist either way. For God to spite you for your disbelief with an eternal punishment is a sentence that doesn't fit the crime. It's vengeful, petty, cruel, and sick. Is that really something you would want to worship?
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Funkmasterr »

Kaldaur wrote:I know bait when I see it. Let me nibble!

The idea that it is better to believe because he might be real is based on the idea that there would be negative consequences for disbelief, like eternal damnnation and hellfire. This was okay in the 1100s, I guess, when you needed the serfs--who had nothing to look forward to in life--to keep working in the fields. "Don't want to work? Well, God wants you to! Don't believe in God? Well, you'll burn in hell if you don't!"

Now, however, it is ludicrous to believe in a God simply so you stay on his good side. Why would you believe and worship and pray to a God that, if you don't believe in him, would allow you to burn forever in pain and anguish? Is that something most loving parents would do? "Now kids, make sure the car is back in the garage by ten or you're grounded. Don't believe me? Well, fine, burn in hell." It's laughable. You shouldn't worship something simply because you're afraid of the consequences if you don't. That's not worship, that's fear. How could any creature who professes to love another sentence them to eternity in hell? Does God have a quota he has to meet, and if he doesn't have enough people worshiping him, he doesn't get his membership in the God of the Month club?
Your belief or disbelief would not make God cease to exist either way. For God to spite you for your disbelief with an eternal punishment is a sentence that doesn't fit the crime. It's vengeful, petty, cruel, and sick. Is that really something you would want to worship?
:vv_yeahthat:

Wasn't gonna say it since we've rehashed this 8 bazillion times but that's about it.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Sabek »

Kaldaur wrote:I know bait when I see it. Let me nibble!

The idea that it is better to believe because he might be real is based on the idea that there would be negative consequences for disbelief, like eternal damnnation and hellfire. This was okay in the 1100s, I guess, when you needed the serfs--who had nothing to look forward to in life--to keep working in the fields. "Don't want to work? Well, God wants you to! Don't believe in God? Well, you'll burn in hell if you don't!"

Now, however, it is ludicrous to believe in a God simply so you stay on his good side. Why would you believe and worship and pray to a God that, if you don't believe in him, would allow you to burn forever in pain and anguish? Is that something most loving parents would do? "Now kids, make sure the car is back in the garage by ten or you're grounded. Don't believe me? Well, fine, burn in hell." It's laughable. You shouldn't worship something simply because you're afraid of the consequences if you don't. That's not worship, that's fear. How could any creature who professes to love another sentence them to eternity in hell? Does God have a quota he has to meet, and if he doesn't have enough people worshiping him, he doesn't get his membership in the God of the Month club?
Your belief or disbelief would not make God cease to exist either way. For God to spite you for your disbelief with an eternal punishment is a sentence that doesn't fit the crime. It's vengeful, petty, cruel, and sick. Is that really something you would want to worship?
The point is not, and never has been, you don't believe in me you go to Hell.

It has always been that everyone on the Earth has sinned. Even the most holy and pure appearing people in the world has since. Everyone has had thoughts of greed, lust, etc. Everyone has told lies and so forth.

The price of sin is hell. God is just and must see justice done. However, because he also loves, which everyone likes to sarcastically spit on, he sent Jesus to die for the sins of everyone.

The catch is you have to believe. No bigger or smaller than that. No special haircuts or clothes or anything else.

Believe that Jesus saved you, and go to Heaven.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Zaelath »

Unless one of the other 1523 religions are correct, all of which say non-believers go to hell, then you're fucked.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Zaelath wrote:Unless one of the other 1523 religions are correct, all of which say non-believers go to hell, then you're fucked.

That may be taught by the imperfect humans who are preaching it, but nowhere in the Christian bible does it say any such thing.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Boogahz »

Zaelath wrote:Unless one of the other 1523 religions are correct, all of which say non-believers go to hell, then you're fucked.

um, no they don't
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Sabek wrote:The catch is you have to believe. No bigger or smaller than that. No special haircuts or clothes or anything else.

Believe that Jesus saved you, and go to Heaven.
But would God take a dishonest believer over an honest non-believer? I could say I believed, and everyone around me would trust that, but inside I would be a liar because I do not believe in God. On the opposite side, I can be honest with myself and not believe, yet live a better "christian lfe" than most christians. Where does your particular God draw the line in such situations?
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Boogahz »

Pretty sure the lines were only drawn up by the various "sects." Kind of like the Catholics saying that you could only get to heaven by donating specific valuables in the past.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Jice Virago »

BTW,
How was everyone's Zombie Jew Day weekend?
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Zaelath »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Unless one of the other 1523 religions are correct, all of which say non-believers go to hell, then you're fucked.

That may be taught by the imperfect humans who are preaching it, but nowhere in the Christian bible does it say any such thing.
But what if the Mulsims are right? They definitely do: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/QURAN/36.htm
61. "And that ye should worship Me, (for that) this was the Straight Way?

62. "But he did lead astray a great multitude of you. Did ye not, then, understand?

63. "This is the Hell of which ye were (repeatedly) warned!

64. "Embrace ye the (fire) this Day, for that ye (persistently) rejected (Truth)."
The Christian Bible has similar things to say of those that reject Christ, though you need to practice a little more comprehension so I don't tend to point those out to the devout.... these blokes seem keen to equate rejection of Christ with an eternity in the pit though (as the recruiting tool it always was) http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Sabek »

Fairweather Pure wrote:
Sabek wrote:The catch is you have to believe. No bigger or smaller than that. No special haircuts or clothes or anything else.

Believe that Jesus saved you, and go to Heaven.
But would God take a dishonest believer over an honest non-believer? I could say I believed, and everyone around me would trust that, but inside I would be a liar because I do not believe in God. On the opposite side, I can be honest with myself and not believe, yet live a better "christian lfe" than most christians. Where does your particular God draw the line in such situations?
What everyone around you believes, or trusts in you is completely irrelevant.

It comes down to your belief or non-belief. You don't have to convince anyone in the world. It's between you and God, and frankly I think he would know if you are not being truthful. As far as living a better "Christian life", the bible is pretty clear that it is not works that get you into heaven. It's faith in God, and realizing no matter what you do, other than believing that Jesus died for you, it's not going to be good enough. Everyone has sinned. There doesn't need to be guilt in that fact. The whole guilt thing is something I never got with Catholicism.



As far as which religion is right. I can't honestly tell with 100% certainty that Christianity is right. No one can say that until they have experienced what comes after death. All I can say is that I believe I have made the right choice.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Sabek wrote:As far as which religion is right. I can't honestly tell with 100% certainty that Christianity is right. No one can say that until they have experienced what comes after death. All I can say is that I believe I have made the right choice.
Yet, if you born in Iraq, you would be a muslim. If you were born in Israel, you would be Jewish. Does this truism ever enter into your religious justification? I'm always curious how a person of faith can just ignore so many obvious, tell tale signs that religion is simply a man made construct. The signs and facts are everywhere. The only difference between things like Scientology, Mormonisim, and Catholicism is time. That's it! All of thier roots can be traced and cross referenced to see that all the ideas were taken from previous religions.

Hundreds of religions were around thousands of years before christianity, and they'll be around long after it's gone. Society determines the social norms and passes along it's traditions and faith to it's offspring. If we discovered life on another planet, they could have a 5 million year old verbal history and the words "Jesus", "Hell", "Heaven" and all that stuff that is native to our planet would be foreign to them. I'm sure they would have all of thier own made up stuff that they would believe in just as strongly as humans do.

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steve Weinberg

Can any religious person refute this quote?
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Post by Sabek »

Fairweather Pure wrote:
Sabek wrote:As far as which religion is right. I can't honestly tell with 100% certainty that Christianity is right. No one can say that until they have experienced what comes after death. All I can say is that I believe I have made the right choice.
Yet, if you born in Iraq, you would be a muslim. If you were born in Israel, you would be Jewish. Does this truism ever enter into your religious justification? I'm always curious how a person of faith can just ignore so many obvious, tell tale signs that religion is simply a man made construct. The signs and facts are everywhere. The only difference between things like Scientology, Mormonisim, and Catholicism is time. That's it! All of thier roots can be traced and cross referenced to see that all the ideas were taken from previous religions.

Hundreds of religions were around thousands of years before christianity, and they'll be around long after it's gone. Society determines the social norms and passes along it's traditions and faith to it's offspring. If we discovered life on another planet, they could have a 5 million year old verbal history and the words "Jesus", "Hell", "Heaven" and all that stuff that is native to our planet would be foreign to them. I'm sure they would have all of thier own made up stuff that they would believe in just as strongly as humans do.

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." - Steve Weinberg

Can any religious person refute this quote?
I would agree that based on where you are born there is going to be a greater chance of one religion vs. another. That is why the Bible calls on all Christians to let people know their beliefs. So that people who haven't heard can hear. It doesn't mean they have more of a chance of being right, and I have a less of chance to be wrong. But there are Christians in Iraq.

As far as the quote is concerned, if they are truly doing "evil", and by that I mean atrocities, then they probably weren't "good people". They will have their own problems to deal with. All over the world people are doing, and have done things in the name of God. If someone is doing that, they probably weren't as good as they claimed to be. The quote itself is a slanted quote purely intended to paint religion in a bad light. The same could be said in the opposite direction. Bad people do good when they truly believe in God. See now I have made a very thought provoking story, that frankly everyone who hates religion chooses not to listen to. There are stories all around of people that were drug addicts, criminals, etc. that have changed their lives entirely and do good instead once they know God.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Preach it Sab!

As to more refuting of that stupid quote....part of why society is having such problems today is the rise of atheism and agnosticism. When people throughout history have had religion, they have a fear of breaking the moral codes because of the retribution that will happen in the afterlife. With that fear gone, there is absolutely nothing to keep them from committing atrocities on society. Hell, it is fashionable these days to be anti-christian.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by miir »

With that fear gone, there is absolutely nothing to keep them from committing atrocities on society
Most of the atrocities commited upon society have been done in the name of religion.


Agnostics and atheists have morals and moral codes.
They just don't violently force them upon others.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Funkmasterr »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Preach it Sab!

As to more refuting of that stupid quote....part of why society is having such problems today is the rise of atheism and agnosticism. When people throughout history have had religion, they have a fear of breaking the moral codes because of the retribution that will happen in the afterlife. With that fear gone, there is absolutely nothing to keep them from committing atrocities on society. Hell, it is fashionable these days to be anti-christian.
Holy shit dude, this has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read here in quite some time. Are you seriously implying that it's a bad thing that less people believe your fairy tale bullshit because they are no longer sheep and the church doesn't control and manipulate their lives?

Not to mention that what miir said is absolutely and irrefutably accurate.
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Post by Sabek »

miir wrote:
With that fear gone, there is absolutely nothing to keep them from committing atrocities on society
Most of the atrocities commited upon society have been done in the name of religion.


Agnostics and atheists have morals and moral codes.
They just don't violently force them upon others.
As I said in the 3rd or so message here, religion sucks. Religion != believing in God and choosing to accept that Jesus died for people.
Religion is what's bad with God. I honestly believe God feels he gave us something so easy to do, and through our own issues have made it a difficult and bad thing. Religion is ritual. There are tons of people that do the ritual of religion and church, but don't actually believe. If I felt my current church was bad I would leave it. That doesn't change my belief in God, it reasserts my belief that human beings are inherently broken and will do bad things on occasion. No one can be "good enough" everyone has issues.

If you read the bible it's very simple, believe that Jesus was the son of God, that he died for your sins, and was resurrected you go to Heaven. Don't and you don't. It sucks that some people don't like the exclusivity of that thought, but that's the deal. There is nothing you have to do but believe.

Where is the "control" and "brainwashing" that people see in that? I don't understand it. There isn't control in believing there is actual freedom, but that's a much deeper conversation.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Sabek »

I would also like to thank the people that have posted in the thread for keeping this a relatively calm and even keeled exchange of ideas.

Normally a thread like this descends into a flame war with no value.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Sabek »

A couple words of note are that with everyone saying the worst things in history were done in the name of religion.
I am pretty sure Hitler and Stalin killed a bunch of people in the name of atheism. The religious fanatics don't have that market cornered. The anti-religious fanatics have killed as many if not more.

Frankly either side of the discussion can cite fanatical examples that support their view that doesn't give a true picture of the reality of things.

Do you thing the majority of Muslim people like being painted with the broad brush of radical fundamental Islam? I don't believe that the majority of Muslim people are bad because some Muslims choose to blow people up.

Do you really think the majority of Christians want to kill people because the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades? There are extremists in every group. The trick is not to paint the whole group with the brush of the extremists.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by miir »

I am pretty sure Hitler and Stalin killed a bunch of people in the name of atheism
Do these sound like the words of an athiest?
Adolf Hitler wrote:We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out
The religious fanatics don't have that market cornered.

Which is why I specifically used the word 'most'.

The anti-religious fanatics have killed as many if not more.
I'd like to see a history book that supports statement like that.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Funkmasterr »

Sabek wrote:A couple words of note are that with everyone saying the worst things in history were done in the name of religion.
I am pretty sure Hitler and Stalin killed a bunch of people in the name of atheism. The religious fanatics don't have that market cornered. The anti-religious fanatics have killed as many if not more.

Frankly either side of the discussion can cite fanatical examples that support their view that doesn't give a true picture of the reality of things.

Do you thing the majority of Muslim people like being painted with the broad brush of radical fundamental Islam? I don't believe that the majority of Muslim people are bad because some Muslims choose to blow people up.

Do you really think the majority of Christians want to kill people because the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades? There are extremists in every group. The trick is not to paint the whole group with the brush of the extremists.
No one is claiming they have the market cornered, but the third sentence is absurd. The Crusades, damn near every "war" in history, not to mention countless other occurrences.. No one even comes close to matching the religions of this world when it comes to disgusting violent acts.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

are you absofuckinglutely insane?

Was the Civil War religion based?
Was the Mongol destruction of everything religion based?
Korea?
WWI?
Vietnam?
Russian Civil War?

The Crusades has been estimated at about 9 million total deaths. WWI alone had over 10 million.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Funkmasterr »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:are you absofuckinglutely insane?

Was the Civil War religion based?
Was the Mongol destruction of everything religion based?
Korea?
WWI?
Vietnam?
Russian Civil War?

The Crusades has been estimated at about 9 million total deaths. WWI alone had over 10 million.
I think you're confusing things that were caused by an act that was a direct result of religion or a religious entity, and the many things that have been done, at least in part because of a belief the person/s that started it had that was based on an absurd religion based belief.. I say that because I would personally place a few of the conflicts you listed above in that latter category.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Ashur »

Thanks Winnow, we haven't had a serious trolling of Christians in several weeks. I know you have to try your best since AZ isn't doing anything in the Sports world.

Study history.

The Crusades were lip service to religion. The real reason people took up arms were to seize land, seize filthy lucre, or gain political benefit (Guess what? Doing what the Pope asked back then got you a pass for all sorts of political issues/shenanigans.). Get in trouble? Take the Cross!

The Feudal society of the day also didn't leave much to second, third, etc sons, but hey, take the cross and become an adventurer. If memory serves, many such adventurers did find a lasting place in the world (read about Armenia during the Crusades sometime).

Yes, you got Sabek on the Hitler = Athiest thing. He did indeed endorse Christianity. He was dead on with Stalin though, but again, it's NOT about religion. It's about power. I'm sick to death of "lol, crusades = proof that Christian = evil" that you athiests always spout off with.

Religion is/was often one of many factors that is/was used to SELL many secular activities (some of which can be considered evil, such as war). That does NOT mean that believing in a god or religion (Christian/Jewish/Islamic/Hindu.etc) means you condone evil acts.

And that quote is stupid. It's just an attempt to be witty by saying that a good person is evil inherently BECAUSE OF RELIGION.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:As to more refuting of that stupid quote....part of why society is having such problems today is the rise of atheism and agnosticism. When people throughout history have had religion, they have a fear of breaking the moral codes because of the retribution that will happen in the afterlife. With that fear gone, there is absolutely nothing to keep them from committing atrocities on society. Hell, it is fashionable these days to be anti-christian.

Out of the entire US prison population, .2% are athiest. Care to explain how reality conflicts with your assumption?
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Ashur wrote:Thanks Winnow, we haven't had a serious trolling of Christians in several weeks. I know you have to try your best since AZ isn't doing anything in the Sports world.

Study history.

The Crusades were lip service to religion. The real reason people took up arms were to seize land, seize filthy lucre, or gain political benefit (Guess what? Doing what the Pope asked back then got you a pass for all sorts of political issues/shenanigans.). Get in trouble? Take the Cross!

The Feudal society of the day also didn't leave much to second, third, etc sons, but hey, take the cross and become an adventurer. If memory serves, many such adventurers did find a lasting place in the world (read about Armenia during the Crusades sometime).

Yes, you got Sabek on the Hitler = Athiest thing. He did indeed endorse Christianity. He was dead on with Stalin though, but again, it's NOT about religion. It's about power. I'm sick to death of "lol, crusades = proof that Christian = evil" that you athiests always spout off with.

Religion is/was often one of many factors that is/was used to SELL many secular activities (some of which can be considered evil, such as war). That does NOT mean that believing in a god or religion (Christian/Jewish/Islamic/Hindu.etc) means you condone evil acts.

And that quote is stupid. It's just an attempt to be witty by saying that a good person is evil inherently BECAUSE OF RELIGION.
Well, your getting more into what I really dislike most about religion, and that is how easy it is to manipulate and control it's followers. See my quote above about how it takes religion to make good people do evil things. Mormons put 5 million towards trying to block gay marrige in California. Right now, the Catholics are claiming that all the uproar over the Pope possibly being involved with moving around a serial pedophile is not just an attack against the Pope himself, it's a slight against every Catholic in the world. Forget the fact that membership tithing went towards paying off millions and millions in hush money to the parents of molested children. How about how the Republicans rallied around abortion during the health care reform even though they knew Obama was going to sign an Executive Order against it? They have the crazy fundies on fucking speed dial and use it every chance they get. How about the Christian terrorist group found in Michigan? I could go on and on. Religion does more harm than it will ever make up for.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Funkmasterr »

Ashur wrote:Thanks Winnow, we haven't had a serious trolling of Christians in several weeks. I know you have to try your best since AZ isn't doing anything in the Sports world.

Study history.

The Crusades were lip service to religion. The real reason people took up arms were to seize land, seize filthy lucre, or gain political benefit (Guess what? Doing what the Pope asked back then got you a pass for all sorts of political issues/shenanigans.). Get in trouble? Take the Cross!

The Feudal society of the day also didn't leave much to second, third, etc sons, but hey, take the cross and become an adventurer. If memory serves, many such adventurers did find a lasting place in the world (read about Armenia during the Crusades sometime).

Yes, you got Sabek on the Hitler = Athiest thing. He did indeed endorse Christianity. He was dead on with Stalin though, but again, it's NOT about religion. It's about power. I'm sick to death of "lol, crusades = proof that Christian = evil" that you athiests always spout off with.

Religion is/was often one of many factors that is/was used to SELL many secular activities (some of which can be considered evil, such as war). That does NOT mean that believing in a god or religion (Christian/Jewish/Islamic/Hindu.etc) means you condone evil acts.

And that quote is stupid. It's just an attempt to be witty by saying that a good person is evil inherently BECAUSE OF RELIGION.
So you're arguing that because the people that were at the helm of these atrocities were just going under the guise of a religious campaign and that wasn't their true underlying goal makes it any better? Well, sir, you are wrong. You are wrong because the hundreds/thousands/millions of people that got behind those sly fuckers truly did believe that they were doing something grand in TEH NAME OF TEH JESUS!

Also, I am 99.999% confident no one has made any negative comments directed at someone solely for believing in God/having faith.. The issue most people seem to have is with organized religion and it's teachings.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by miir »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: Was the Civil War religion based?
Was the Mongol destruction of everything religion based?
Korea?
WWI?
Vietnam?
Russian Civil War?
Are you trying to say that all of those were atheist and/or agnostic conflicts?

I'm pretty damn sure the individuals involved in those conflicts were overwhelmingly religious.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Boogahz »

miir wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: Was the Civil War religion based?
Was the Mongol destruction of everything religion based?
Korea?
WWI?
Vietnam?
Russian Civil War?
Are you trying to say that all of those were atheist and/or agnostic conflicts?

I'm pretty damn sure the individuals involved in those conflicts were overwhelmingly religious.
Pretty sure none of those were "committed in the name of religion," which is the statement you made that I believe he was referencing.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Ashur »

Funk/Fair - ahh, now we get to the crux of the matter.

You hate stupid/gullible people.

I'm with you on that one. My wife drives me up the wall, I have to keep her away from all salespeople.

Can I get a high-five?
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Funkmasterr »

miir wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: Was the Civil War religion based?
Was the Mongol destruction of everything religion based?
Korea?
WWI?
Vietnam?
Russian Civil War?
Are you trying to say that all of those were atheist and/or agnostic conflicts?

I'm pretty damn sure the individuals involved in those conflicts were overwhelmingly religious.
Was kind of my point.

For example.. Civil War. What was the main reason for the war? What did most of the idiotic rednecks have in common besides wanting to keep their slaves? Yeah.. Nothing to do with religion at all..
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by miir »

Boogahz wrote:Pretty sure none of those were "committed in the name of religion," which is the statement you made that I believe he was referencing.
Was a response to Killmol based on this post:
part of why society is having such problems today is the rise of atheism and agnosticism. When people throughout history have had religion, they have a fear of breaking the moral codes because of the retribution that will happen in the afterlife. With that fear gone, there is absolutely nothing to keep them from committing atrocities on society.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Boogahz »

yes, and it appears he responded with a list of conflicts that were not committed in the name of religion.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Boogahz »

Funkmasterr wrote:
miir wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: Was the Civil War religion based?
Was the Mongol destruction of everything religion based?
Korea?
WWI?
Vietnam?
Russian Civil War?
Are you trying to say that all of those were atheist and/or agnostic conflicts?

I'm pretty damn sure the individuals involved in those conflicts were overwhelmingly religious.
Was kind of my point.

For example.. Civil War. What was the main reason for the war? What did most of the idiotic rednecks have in common besides wanting to keep their slaves? Yeah.. Nothing to do with religion at all..
I know of a few Atheists in the middle east right now, and by following your line of reasoning, atheism is responsible for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oh, and one Wiccan, always forget them!
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Sabek »

Funkmasterr wrote:
miir wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: Was the Civil War religion based?
Was the Mongol destruction of everything religion based?
Korea?
WWI?
Vietnam?
Russian Civil War?
Are you trying to say that all of those were atheist and/or agnostic conflicts?

I'm pretty damn sure the individuals involved in those conflicts were overwhelmingly religious.
Was kind of my point.

For example.. Civil War. What was the main reason for the war? What did most of the idiotic rednecks have in common besides wanting to keep their slaves? Yeah.. Nothing to do with religion at all..
That is an insane level of absurdity to take this to.
The Civil War had nothing to do with religion. It had everything to do with half a country not wanting slavery anymore and the other half not wanting to lose their free labor.

If you want to get that absurd you can say some people in the army are religious so technically every war in forever was religious.

That's absurdity to try and make your point which ends up making your point look silly.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Sabek »

As far as the Hitler was Christian thing, anyone with half a brain has to understand Hitler wasn't a Christian. I pretty sure there is nothing in the Bible about killing off an entire race. A race that coincidentally considered to be God's people in the Bible.

"The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." - Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk, p. 51

That sure sounds like a Christian.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Ashur »

Miir, if you're arguing that religion causes wars, are you also asserting that without religion there would be no war or are you just bagging on religion for sheer enjoyment? :)
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Canelek »

Ashur wrote:Funk/Fair - ahh, now we get to the crux of the matter.

You hate stupid/gullible people.

I'm with you on that one. My wife drives me up the wall, I have to keep her away from all salespeople.

Can I get a high-five?

You sir, get a ^5!

As someone in the category as "non-believer", I'll not really add anything to this discussion, as I feel that everyone has the right to believe or not to believe. My only qualm is with those who feel the opposite, and must try to force their beliefs onto me (which is not an issue on this board).

Something about casting the first stone, etc... ;)

Good thread, btw. Civil debate, which is rather difficult to do with this topic.
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by miir »

That sure sounds like a Christian.
I was waiting for someone to quote Hitler's Secret Conversations. :D


I think these comments are far more telling of his religious beliefs.

- Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord

- For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by miir »

Ashur wrote:Miir, if you're arguing that religion causes wars, are you also asserting that without religion there would be no war or are you just bagging on religion for sheer enjoyment? :)
How many wars have been started in the name of athiesm or agnosticism? ;)
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Re: Non Biased: Religion is Lame - Thread

Post by Ashur »

As many has haven't been started in the name of greed and lust for power.
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