I love being right.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

http://www.breitbart.tv/06-flashback-pe ... isruptors/

[Xatrei]

How would you know what it's like to be right about anything?

Disappear back to your bunker, loser.

(If I ask you if you're still molesting the corpses of your children, will you go away for another year?)

[Keverian FireCry]

Nice video. It's interesting to see how much more civilized that crowd was, compared to the recent anti-health care mobs who won't sit down and simply boo and scream over everyone else through 95% of the entire meeting.

[Gonzoie - Luclin]

I dont think that video compares at all to whats been happening. All that has been going on at these town meetings is some Fox zealot screams at the speaker and doesn't allow anyone to say anything.

How about Foxnews talking over Obama's speech where he debunks all the lies they have been toting. If you for a second think the Republicans are in the "right" here, then i just feel sorry for you.

[Fairweather Pure]

I don't even know what you're claiming to be right about.

[Aardor]

Don't feed the troll?

[Spang]

Midnyte being right is like Sarah Palin being right.

[Animalor]

Here's a quote from Pelosi from a few days ago for those of us not plugged into the news IV.

http://americanmissive.com/2009/08/06/n ... are-nazis/

That blog entry put a horrible spin on the title. She says she saw swastika's, didn't actually call anyone a nazi.

It's easy to support protestors when they aren't protesting you..

[Spang]

Here's an actual article that she wrote:

'Un-American' attacks can't derail health care debate

Americans have been waiting for nearly a century for quality, affordable health care.

Health coverage for all was on the national agenda as early as 1912, thanks to Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose presidential run. Months after World War II came to an end in 1945, President Harry Truman called on Congress to guarantee all Americans the "right to adequate medical care and protection from the economic fears of sickness." From President Lyndon Johnson to President Bill Clinton, to President Obama's winning campaign on the promise of reform, there hasn't been a more debated domestic issue than the promise of affordable health care for all.

We believe it is healthy for such a historic effort to be subject to so much scrutiny and debate. The failure of past attempts is a reminder that health insurance reform is a defining moment in our nation's history — it is well worth the time it takes to get it right. We are confident that we will get this right.

Already, three House committees have passed this critical legislation and over August, the two of us will work closely with those three committees to produce one strong piece of legislation that the House will approve in September.

In the meantime, as members of Congress spend time at home during August, they are talking with their constituents about reform. The dialogue between elected representatives and constituents is at the heart of our democracy and plays an integral role in assuring that the legislation we write reflects the genuine needs and concerns of the people we represent.

However, it is now evident that an ugly campaign is underway not merely to misrepresent the health insurance reform legislation, but to disrupt public meetings and prevent members of Congress and constituents from conducting a civil dialogue. These tactics have included hanging in effigy one Democratic member of Congress in Maryland and protesters holding a sign displaying a tombstone with the name of another congressman in Texas, where protesters also shouted "Just say no!" drowning out those who wanted to hold a substantive discussion.

Let the facts be heard

These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views — but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades.

Health care is complex. It touches every American life. It drives our economy. People must be allowed to learn the facts.

The first fact is that health insurance reform will mean more patient choice. It will allow every American who likes his or her current plan to keep it. And it will free doctors and patients to make the health decisions that make the most sense, not the most profits for insurance companies.

Reform will mean stability and peace of mind for the middle class. Never again will medical bills drive Americans into bankruptcy; never again will Americans be in danger of losing coverage if they lose their jobs or if they become sick; never again will insurance companies be allowed to deny patients coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

Lower costs, better care

Reform will mean affordable coverage for all Americans. Our plan's cost-lowering measures include a public health insurance option to bring competitive pressure to bear on rapidly consolidating private insurers, research on health outcomes to better inform the decisions of patients and doctors, and electronic medical records to help doctors save money by working together. For seniors, the plan closes the notorious Medicare Part D "doughnut hole" that denies drug coverage to those with between $2,700 and $6,100 per year in prescriptions.

Reform will also mean higher-quality care by promoting preventive care so health problems can be addressed before they become crises. This, too, will save money. We'll be a much healthier country if all patients can receive regular checkups and tests, such as mammograms and diabetes exams, without paying a dime out-of-pocket.

This month, despite the disruptions, members of Congress will listen to their constituents back home and explain reform legislation. We are confident that our principles of affordable, quality health care will stand up to any and all critics.

Now — with Americans strongly supporting health insurance reform, with Congress reaching consensus on a plan, and with a president who ran and won on this specific promise of change — America is closer than ever to this century-deferred goal.

This fall, at long last, we must reach it.

The Source

[Fash]

If you cant see the complete switch in media coverage, on both sides, you're kidding yourself.

When they were protesting Bush, the conservative media was calling them un-american nazis, and the liberal media was 'inspired'. We've just switched sides now, and both sides are indicting themselves by going on the record with statements that go against what they said last time.

If I had to look for something that makes this different, it would be that 95%+ of Anti War/Bush protesters were not affected in any way by Bush policies, it just didn't agree with their ideology... and they were cajoled by political groups and the media. At least with Health Care, 100% of everyone is going to be affected by it. Read parts of the bills that have been proposed, and you'll see that there are time limits on Obama's promises... You won't lose your current coverage (now) and they aren't eliminating employer run coverage (but the employer will only be able to offer government approved plans.) Death Panel was a terrible wording used to incite protest, but that protest may very well have succeeded in removing the 'end of life' section of the bill in progress.

I'm with Obama on this one... Fedex and UPS are doing just fine, it's the post office that is always having trouble, so keep government out of it... leave it to the private companies, toss in a little regulation if you want to keep them honest.

[Spang]

Death Panel was a terrible wording used to incite protest, but that protest may very well have succeeded in removing the 'end of life' section of the bill in progress.

Thanks to the Facebook blogger Sarah Palin, if an old person wants end-of-life counseling under the proposed health care plan, they need to pay for it out of their own pocket. Good job, Sarah!

Also, while she was a governor, Sarah Palin declared April 16, Health Care Decisions Day in Alaska.

And,

Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!!

The Source

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

Did you set a reminder on your cellphone?

"In one year, come back, make random snarky one liner comment about something some Democrat did that I disagree with, then cease posting again."

You must lead a terribly exciting life.

[Fash]

and.......... the socialist option has been defeated.

WASHINGTON – Bowing to Republican pressure and an uneasy public, President Barack Obama's administration signaled Sunday it is ready to abandon the idea of giving Americans the option of government-run insurance as part of a new health care system.

Facing mounting opposition to the overhaul, administration officials left open the chance for a compromise with Republicans that would include health insurance cooperatives instead of a government-run plan. Such a concession probably would enrage Obama's liberal supporters but could deliver a much-needed victory on a top domestic priority opposed by GOP lawmakers.

Officials from both political parties reached across the aisle in an effort to find compromises on proposals they left behind when they returned to their districts for an August recess. Obama had wanted the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's almost 50 million uninsured, but didn't include it as one of his three core principles of reform.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said that government alternative to private health insurance is "not the essential element" of the administration's health care overhaul. The White House would be open to co-ops, she said, a sign that Democrats want a compromise so they can declare a victory.
Under a proposal by Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., consumer-owned nonprofit cooperatives would sell insurance in competition with private industry, not unlike the way electric and agriculture co-ops operate, especially in rural states such as his own.

With $3 billion to $4 billion in initial support from the government, the co-ops would operate under a national structure with state affiliates, but independent of the government. They would be required to maintain the type of financial reserves that private companies are required to keep in case of unexpectedly high claims.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

[Fairweather Pure]

So, we're getting rid of Medicare, Medicaid and our military and veterans will no longer be insured?

[Winnow]

Obama is a failure. He's closing in on the worst 1st year ever for a president. Approval ratings constantly dropping.

The only thing he "sort of" has going for him is the semi natural recovery of the economy which is about to head south again at least for a little while.

[Leonaerd]

Democracy is a failure. We are tax-paying failures too powerless to revolt.

[Jice Virago]

Obama is a failure. He's closing in on the worst 1st year ever for a president. Approval ratings constantly dropping.

The only thing he "sort of" has going for him is the semi natural recovery of the economy which is about to head south again at least for a little while.

Aside from the approval rating BS (all Presidents lose rating over time to a degree, except I believe Slick Willie), he would have to smoke weed on camera while devouring a live baby and shouting kill whitey at the top of his lungs to have a worse first year than W. My pet goat ring any bells? You are also the last person who should be attacking the economic stabilization, since the billions they tossed at the banks has kept your trust fund money, and by extension your self indulgent lifestyle, safe.

The only real thing he has done wrong is trying to meet the GOP in the middle, which is impossible to do with outright crazy people (read, fundementalist Reagan worshiping zealots) who are so mad that a darkie is president that they have convinced themselves that he is from Kenya and wants to kill grandma (see Midnyte). This is where he has lost some approval, because some of the more progressive people are tired of him appeasing these fucking idiots.

As for Midnyte, I am sure the entire concept of a black president has caused him unending erectile disfunction and it took him this long to work up a half a hardon to post here. Congratulations, you chicken shit racist. You found something about Pelosi (who even the libs make fun of) and worked up enough courage to put a post up here about it, after supposedly leaving here forever.... again.... for a third time. I am sure everyone will give your input the respect and merrit it deserves.

[Tyek]

Obama is a failure. He's closing in on the worst 1st year ever for a president. Approval ratings constantly dropping.

The only thing he "sort of" has going for him is the semi natural recovery of the economy which is about to head south again at least for a little while.

Aside from the approval rating BS (all Presidents lose rating over time to a degree, except I believe Slick Willie), he would have to smoke weed on camera while devouring a live baby and shouting kill whitey at the top of his lungs to have a worse first year than W. My pet goat ring any bells? You are also the last person who should be attacking the economic stabilization, since the billions they tossed at the banks has kept your trust fund money, and by extension your self indulgent lifestyle, safe.

The only real thing he has done wrong is trying to meet the GOP in the middle, which is impossible to do with outright crazy people (read, fundementalist Reagan worshiping zealots) who are so mad that a darkie is president that they have convinced themselves that he is from Kenya and wants to kill grandma (see Midnyte). This is where he has lost some approval, because some of the more progressive people are tired of him appeasing these fucking idiots.

As for Midnyte, I am sure the entire concept of a black president has caused him unending erectile disfunction and it took him this long to work up a half a hardon to post here. Congratulations, you chicken shit racist. You found something about Pelosi (who even the libs make fun of) and worked up enough courage to put a post up here about it, after supposedly leaving here forever.... again.... for a third time. I am sure everyone will give your input the respect and merrit it deserves.

I don't think he has been a failure, I don't think he has been the amazing leader he was made out to be either, but I never believed he would be. As I have said before, Congress and the political agendas have to change before real change happens. I voted for Obama because he represented a shift away from crusty OLD people (WASP) politics.

I also find it laughable that Democrats and Republicans don't see the hypocritical behavior they are displaying. Republicans used to cry "UNAMERICAN" at anyone who questioned their policies. Now they think it is Patriotic. Democrats used to pick on Bush all the time, but heaven forbid someone questions Obama. Now they don't want anyone questioning their policies.

I think Leonard is partially correct in his statement, I think where we are in democracy right now we have failed, but the failure is not in the concept, but in the people we have hired to run it. We do not have a pure democratic process. We have socialist tendancies as well. We need both to continue forward.

My only hope is that at some point the majority of the population gets tired of the extremists in each party running this country. I would guess 50-70% of the population is far more middle of the road then "conservative or liberal", I think most fall on one side or the other on individual policies rather then all liberal or all conservative. We need a political group that wants to solve problems and help the country move forward rather then idiots like Chaney and Pelosi spending their whole time blaming others and looking to get re-elected.

[Sargeras]

zomg it's Mahacto!

[cadalano]

we must abolish human administrations and religions and construct a perfect machine system to govern all humanity in their place





Morpheus: "JC Denton. 23 years old. No residence. No ancestors. No employer. No –"
JC Denton: "How do you know who I am?"
Morpheus: "I must greet each visitor with a complete summary of his file. I am a prototype for a much larger system."
JC Denton: "What else do you know about me?"
Morpheus: "Everything that can be known."
JC Denton: "Go on. Do you have proof about my ancestors?"
Morpheus: "You are a planned organism, the offspring of knowledge and imagination rather than of individuals."
JC Denton: "I'm engineered. So what? My brother and I suspected as much while we were growing up."
Morpheus: "You are carefully watched by many people. The unplanned organism is a question asked by Nature and answered by death. You are another kind of question with another kind of answer."
JC Denton: "Are you programmed to invent riddles?"
Morpheus: "I am a prototype for a much larger system. The heuristics language developed by Dr. Everett allows me to convey the highest and most succint tier of any pyramidal construct of knowledge."
JC Denton: "How about a report on yourself?"
Morpheus: "I was a prototype for Echelon IV. My instructions are to amuse visitors with information about themselves."
JC Denton: "I don't see anything amusing about spying on people."
Morpheus: "Human beings feel pleasure when they are watched. I have recorded their smiles as I tell them who they are."
JC Denton: "Some people just don't understand the dangers of indiscriminate surveillance."
Morpheus: "The need to be observed and understood was once satisfied by God. Now we can implement the same functionality with data-mining algorithms."
JC Denton: "Electronic surveillance hardly inspires reverence. Perhaps fear and obedience, but not reverence."
Morpheus: "God and the gods were apparitions of observation, judgment and punishment. Other sentiments towards them were secondary."
JC Denton: "No one will ever worship a software entity peering at them through a camera."
Morpheus: "The human organism always worships. First, it was the gods, then it was fame (the observation and judgment of others), next it will be self-aware systems you have built to realize truly omnipresent observation and judgment."
JC Denton: "You underestimate humankind's love of freedom."
Morpheus: "The individual desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization."

[Aabidano]

So, we're getting rid of Medicare, Medicaid and our military and veterans will no longer be insured?

Had seen anything on the veterans part, where did you see that?

I'm a military retiree, that part of my benefits comes via a govt contract with a Humana subsidiary. No complaints at all about it really. In my case they're a PPO\secondary insurer, if I didn't have a company policy I'd need to use military facilities when space was available or use the HMO option which isn't any different than any other HMO you'll see.

Regan really did have the right idea, but he was an idealist and people don't play by the rules. The people who've come after him? Politics as usual.

[Fash]

Fairweather was just trolling...

[Gzette]

First of all, Obama made intimations today he is still in favor of the public option. I hope it sticks and I hope this weekend reporting the public option died was just another instance of policy aides fishing ideas over the weekend to gauge reactions. It's a fucking terrible tactic and it doesn't help his position.

If Obama can't push this through, I will be extremely pissed. The democratic majority to so freaking large, this is not the time to be appeasing Republicans. It' pretty obvious there won't be a better chance, and if Obama doesn't take advantage, I call bull shit. I saw him three times during the campaign and every time he promised he would pursue public health care. It was the biggest selling point for me. And he's already made huge compromises. If it were up to me, I'd abolish the whole private health care sector.

For such an obviously intelligent president to back away from the entire debate because of some fucking retards at town hall meetings would be the triumph of ignorance. The spewing sludge of misinformation being promulgated by the protesters is dangerous. Very dangerous. It's the scariest thing I've seen in awhile.

[Fash]

If it were up to me, I'd abolish the whole private health care sector.

Then it's a damn good thing it's not up to you. Move to some communist country and enjoy your free health care. Get a job, hippy.

The spewing sludge of misinformation being promulgated by the protesters is dangerous. Very dangerous. It's the scariest thing I've seen in awhile.

The way some of you buy into the ideals of the proposal and judge any question or protest as misinformation is scarier. I swear, if Obama were the one going after Iraq, you wouldn't give a shit where the WMD's were.

It's a beautiful idea, free health care for all!! Too good to be true, it is... especially in the middle of a huge recession and multiple military operations.

[Aabidano]

I think about the best we can hope for at this point are co-ops\non-profits health insurers getting some backing from the govt in an FDIC like arrangement to make private insurers run for their money.

That and raising the floor on who can get govt sponsored care could cover just about everybody. And have a realistic chance of passing.

A buddy of mine swears the free market will fix it. Unfortunately this isn't a free market, it's strictly controlled by an industry whose interests are the exact opposite of their customers' best interest.

If the democrats were a cohesive party single payer might be realistic, Obama didn't play the game right to force them into though.

I find it amazing that no one's mentioning that the republicans who couldn't get a minute of airtime running up to the election are having such a field day now. Just follow the money as usual I suppose.

[Leonaerd]

The popularity swing from both Dems and Reps over Ben Bernacke now (Obama) and then (Bush) is microcosmical of American citizens' unwavering unwillingness to intelligently opine. That is, without politicians' silly middle-ground pandering bullshit policies (thank you Democracy) that somehow always seem to be good enough to garner the idiot's vote without question, and without fox news' violently aggressive truthinesses (et al etc), America would be left with millions of idiots with nothing to look towards to decide their opinions for them. People are afraid to believe that their country isn't looking out for them. In short, we will continue to go down this path as long as Midnyte feels this kind of stuff is worth mentioning, let alone making a new thread about.

[Tyek]

I agree Fox sucks, but lets be fair here, MSNBC can hardly speak with Obama's dick in their mouths.

Objective news is gone, all we have now are politically opinionated hacks pushing their world views on the masses. Fox just seems to have picked an easier group to dupe, but the methods and goals of both MSNBC and Fox are similiar.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26188.html

White House disables e-tip box
By: Mike Allen
August 17, 2009 12:43 PM EST

Following a furor over how the data would be used, the White House has shut down an electronic tip box — flag@whitehouse.gov — that was set up to receive information on “fishy” claims about President Barack Obama’s health plan.

E-mails to that address now bounce back with the message: “The e-mail address you just sent a message to is no longer in service. We are now accepting your feedback about health insurance reform via http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck.”

The “flag” service was introduced Aug. 4, with a White House blog post saying: “There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said at a briefing shortly after the service launched: “We're not collecting names from those e-mails. … All we're asking people to do is if they're confused about what health care reform is going to mean to them, we're happy to help clear that up for you. Nobody is keeping anybody's names.”

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas), chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, wrote a letter to Obama raising privacy concerns about what the senator called an “Obama monitoring program.”

“I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward e-mails critical of his policies to the White House,” Cornyn wrote. “So I urge you to cease this program immediately.”

In a later statement, Cornyn said: “Of course the White House is collecting names. … It is inevitable. Anyone with access to the flag@whitehouse.gov account has access to the names and email addresses that are collected in that account. … How are they purging names and e-mail addresses from this account to protect privacy?”

© 2009 Capitol News Company, LLC

[Zaelath]

OMG, the horror, that's SO MUCH WORSE than warrant-less wire tapping.

[Keverian FireCry]

They were asking citizens to help find and report blatant misinformation like "death panels" so that there could actually be an honest debate about the issues. This is yet another example of democrats backing down because of a ridiculous GOP scare-tactic. Progress does not come through fear and misinformation, yet those two things are exactly what steers our country these days.

[Leonaerd]

I agree Fox sucks, but lets be fair here, MSNBC can hardly speak with Obama's dick in their mouths.

Objective news is gone, all we have now are politically opinionated hacks pushing their world views on the masses. Fox just seems to have picked an easier group to dupe, but the methods and goals of both MSNBC and Fox are similiar.

Yes I agree. I guess I should have been more specific in saying that It was any news center. Fox is just the easiest target.

Progress does not come through fear and misinformation, yet those two things are exactly what steers our country these days.

You have a different definition of progress than the ruling elite. We're progressively lining the pockets of few and allowing even fewer to have immense, almost incalculable power because of fear. We're spending more money on war because of fear. We're rushing into bailouts and restructuring policies for the same reason. You could probably trace the worst injustices in recent times to having been pushed through by fear tactics.

I think the first step in the right direction is to not vote. There's never going to be a good president from here onward until our current system of government is abolished (duh? be real), and it's going to become a lot more difficult to justify a plan nobody voted for as we get angrier and more shat upon. But of course, our carefully engineered society of idiots is just going to continue pumping out the votes because the blue / red divide causes just enough hatred that people will go out of their way to ignore the reality staring them in the face: that they're electing a rich, powerful committee operating on the pursuit of wealth and power, and not a president with opinions that are for the greater good. Stop electing corruption, idiots.

[Tyek]

They were asking citizens to help find and report blatant misinformation like "death panels" so that there could actually be an honest debate about the issues. This is yet another example of democrats backing down because of a ridiculous GOP scare-tactic. Progress does not come through fear and misinformation, yet those two things are exactly what steers our country these days.

Be honest if the Bush administration had the same program most of the liberals on this board would have screamed about it. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, just a simple fact.

[Leonaerd]

Pointing read and blue fingers is good for the government. It keeps them from having to worry about whether or not people will see the forest from the trees.

[Zaelath]

They were asking citizens to help find and report blatant misinformation like "death panels" so that there could actually be an honest debate about the issues. This is yet another example of democrats backing down because of a ridiculous GOP scare-tactic. Progress does not come through fear and misinformation, yet those two things are exactly what steers our country these days.

Be honest if the Bush administration had the same program most of the liberals on this board would have screamed about it. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, just a simple fact.

Perhaps you should google "carnivore" and then ask who gives a fuck about the abovementioned program.... here, save you the hassle:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28software%29

Highlights:
- Implemented under Clinton
- Decried by EFF and other organisations which I would assume the right would call "left" because they're anti government being in your home, which is what I thought the right were supposed to be. American politics is so fucking confusing.

[Aabidano]

Perhaps you should google "carnivore" and then ask who gives a fuck about the abovementioned program.... here, save you the hassle:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore_%28software%29

Highlights:
- Implemented under Clinton
...

Difference being, Clinton didn't attempt to legalize internal wiretaps, except with judicial oversight. The Bush administration went out of their way in an attempt to circumvent our legal system. I won't claim any direct knowledge but I've worked with the folks who implement this sort of stuff, likely the most conscientious bunch of people you'll ever meet. And they were resigning over the situations they were being placed in after being refused legal immunity.

And yes:

Be honest if the Bush administration had the same program most of the liberals on this board would have screamed about it. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, just a simple fact.

There would have been an uproar.

[Fairweather Pure]

If it were up to me, I'd abolish the whole private health care sector.

Then it's a damn good thing it's not up to you. Move to some communist country and enjoy your free health care. Get a job, hippy.

OR!, instead of moving to a communist country, he could stay right here in America and: join any of the armed forces, get on any form of disability, or wait until 65 and automatically recieve Medicare benefits. Btw, a job is the last thing you want if you want free health care! Medicaid is pretty strict on how much you can make before you are ineligible. Basically, as soon as you actually make enough to become a productive member of society, you lose all access to your free health care. Nice incentive!

Let me see if I can put this in other terms... give me a minute to gather my train of thought.

Ok. I think I got it.

The reason health care costs are so high is because when those with insurance have anything done, they are also paying the overhead for the next 10 people that cannot pay. I'll give an example.

A prosthetic heart will cost your insurance 75k just for the heart itself. Now, it doesn't actually cost 75k to make the heart. It actually costs 20k. The extra 55k is not profit for the hospital. It is there to help absorb the cost of the next 10 people that cannot pay for thier various services. The entire system is built around charging those who can pay for it and obscene amount so that they will make up for those that cannot.

Does that make sense?

It's pretty frustrating listening to people that have no idea try and speak like some kind of authority on health care. The vast majority of the population just doesn't know enough to have a proper thought or opinion on the subject.

[Fash]

How about.... I don't want free health care! I pay $800/month for my house, $80/month for car insurance, doesn't it make sense to spend a minimum of $100/month for insuring my personal health? Right now I contribute $112 every 4 weeks... I could easily afford to pay more if that's what it took for something so important.

Just past food and shelter, isn't health insurance #3?

[Tyek]

I wish my house payment was 800 dollars.

[Fairweather Pure]

I would rather they take the money I pay into my personal insurance (including co-pays, prescriptions, optical and dental), the money I pay for Medicare/Medicaid (which will lilkey not be there when I retire anyway), the health care portion of my automotive insurance, and put it towards health care for everyone. Take the health care portion out of all insurance and it would have a major trickle down effect.

You are already paying for everyone else's health care. It's just not transparent or obvious.

[Fairweather Pure]

How about.... I don't want free health care!

I just cannot understand this mentality. Instead of paying the same amount into a public health system to care for everyone, you would rather just take care of yourself with no real reasoning attached? How do you want/expect the government to deal with people like you when discussing a public health option? Do you think you can stand in the way of the betterment of American society as a whole just because you want to?

[Xatrei]

How about.... I don't want free health care! I pay $800/month for my house, $80/month for car insurance, doesn't it make sense to spend a minimum of $100/month for insuring my personal health? Right now I contribute $112 every 4 weeks... I could easily afford to pay more if that's what it took for something so important.

Just past food and shelter, isn't health insurance #3?

What is your employer's share of your health insurance premiums? (hint: it's a hell of a lot more than your ~100 bucks a month)

Also, in all of the health care debate, who exactly is talking about "free health care?" I'm not aware of anyone. There are a variety of proposals out there, but none are, nor have they been characterized as, "free."

The one that makes the most sense, but is also not even on the table due to the influence of the health insurance industry, is to expand Medicare into a single-payer system that provides health care coverage for every citizen. Everyone pays into it instead of private health insurance, which would solve the funding issues that currently exist with Medicare, and result in lower costs by removing profiteering by the insurance companies. This isn't free, it's just a different, more efficient system.

The one championed by most Democrats is a "public option" which would be a government operated system like Medicare that people without access to other health insurance via their employers. Again, this isn't free.

The less preferred option championed by blue dogs and Republicans (who only "support" the option during debate, but will never actually vote for it in any significant numbers) is the health care cooperative. This would be a non-profit organization that would negotiate with insurance companies for coverage for its members. This isn't free either, and will be as costly to the individuals within the co-op as the combined employer/employee costs of insurance offered by most employers. This one isn't free either.

Those who are too poor to afford health insurance would be assisted by the government, whether through the public option, co-op or private insurance. This part isn't free either, and it will be paid for by minor tax increases upon the wealthiest Americans, as well as with money "found" by reprioritizing spending elsewhere in the federal budget.

[Aabidano]

How about.... I don't want free health care!

Just past food and shelter, isn't health insurance #3?

Fear not, the free lunch hasn't been invented yet

All the things you don't want to pay for, guess what. You already are anyway.

Healthcare should be #3. Your employer's share of your premium is likely ~$300, assuming you're single. If you've got dependents it's probably $400+. Add in prescriptions, dental, etc.. coverage for a little more.

The least-cost option is going to be a single payer system based on the medicare model, no that it's at all likely to happen. Next cheapest option is non-profit competition for the insurance companies.

I can't think of anyone who doesn't have something, however tenuous that can be called a pre-existing condition for something. What happens then, you aren't covered at all, though generally you don't find this out until the bills become more than your insurer feels like paying.

More bad news, if you read your policy there's almost certainly a whole set of coverage caps after which you're on your own and essentially uninsurable. Hello to lien on your house and endless hassles, unless of course you've got a couple million $$ in spare change laying around.

[vn_Tanc]

How about.... I don't want free health care! I pay $800/month for my house, $80/month for car insurance, doesn't it make sense to spend a minimum of $100/month for insuring my personal health? Right now I contribute $112 every 4 weeks... I could easily afford to pay more if that's what it took for something so important.

Just past food and shelter, isn't health insurance #3?

Let's just get one thing straight - national healthcare isn't "free". We pay up to 9% tax on top of income tax to fund the nation health service. This is called National Insurance. We still have private healthcare - you can have as much as you want. But you can't opt out of NI payments.

The difference then is that this money doesn't go into shareholders pockets, it all goes into healthcare. And nobody gets turned away, nobody gets stiffed with co-pays or pre-existing condition crap. If you're sick you get help. End of story. I've paid out way WAY more in taxes than I've ever used but then I saw a good friend get 2 years of top-class cancer treatment and felt it money well spent.

And in the end here in the UK we pay less per-capita on healthcare than you do in the US and we have a longer life expectancy.

You're getting buttfucked by big business on something that should absolutely NEVER be run for profit. And then you find out they won't treat you when you really need it? If you like this system you're a fucking stooge. I'm sure Scarey Big Government can't give the average US citizen a worse deal than they're getting on their healthcare right now.

[miir]

something that should absolutely NEVER be run for profit

[Fash]

I used the word 'free' because of this post right above mine by Fairweather. I know it's not free and that we're all paying for it. I support paying for it for Medicare, Medicaid, and the Military... This is old and established law and precedent far before I was even eligible to vote. I am opposed to the 'public option' which would inevitably take over and become a single payer system. I have always been a proponent of what they're calling co-ops... but people have to contribute for their own coverage... and some people need to die.

[Xatrei]

Private for-profit insurers take a huge slice right off the top for themselves, and do everything possible within the law (and probably outside of it, too) to maximize their cut by paying out as little as they can get away with. They add absolutely no value to the process that a single payer, national system wouldn't do better and for less money. Medicare is incredibly efficient, and suffers only from a poorly planned funding scheme which could easily be addressed by having everyone pay into it what currently goes to the corporate leeches. Why do you prefer to just piss away 30% or more of every dollar spent on health care through the private insurers?

[miir]

I guess people like Fash cling to the status quo because they are afraid of change.

[Fash]

As if Medicare is facilitated without the private insurance industry. Hello, My name is Fosco, and I work for a private for-profit company that handles Medicare business for about 5 million people. I've been here over 3.5 years now in IT, Enrollment, Billing, and Reconciliation. Our clients are mostly Blue Cross/Blue Shield (MI/NM/TX/MN/IA/SD/MT/NE/ND/SD,) Medco and about 10 others, all private for-profit Medicare contractors... I know a lot about Medicare and just how fucked up it really is, and how Xatrei likes to talk out of his anus.

If you think that 30% is going away with single payer, you're sorely misinformed, because Medicare is not a non-profit business.

[Xatrei]

This is all an irrelevant discussion anyway, because it's not going to happen thanks to the corporate insurance interests meddling in the affairs of the people. However, if Medicare was expanded to be *the* national health care provider like Britain's NHS, Medicare would certainly need to be modified somewhat - there is no question of that. I didn't go down that path, however, because we're discussing things in the abstract here, and not talking about details. Things like how we would go about correcting the gaps in part a & b coverage that necessitate part b supplemental policies and would allow getting rid of part c & d completely are specifics that are for another discussion that we, unfortunately, will not need to actually have any time soon. Medicare provides a good framework upon which a real solution could be built, but the best we can hope for in this clusterfuck of a country is "insurance reform" that leaves corporate leeches in place and very little changed. The system is sick and dying, and we're going to be given an aspirin for our pains instead of a cure.

We have too many uninformed Wurzelbachers and Palins that are too easily swayed by propaganda to hope for better. Idiocracy is now.

[Aabidano]

Change!

Damn, still isn't working.