CNN reports on captured Terrorists..

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 29, 2002, 11:04 am

Krewlade- precisely the ill-educated jingoistic idiocy that frightens me. "Crush them utterly and control them so they can never be a threat again"? Its been tried. After WW1 the allies tried to so cripple Germany that it could never be a threat again. The millions who died in WW2 not 25 years later can attest to how well that worked. All the attempt did was to make most of the german population angry and resentful and sow the seeds for another war.

Killing the terrorist, his family and all his friends? You'll kill the terrorist and perhaps 1 or 2 other enemies that were indeed among his family and friends. And you'll make 3-10 new enemies from among the survivors that were close to the people you just killed. After all, how much of the family do you kill? Just the parents? Now the brothers and sisters, children, grandparents and friends of the parents hate you. Kill the grandparents, brothers and sisters too? Now the spouses of the brothers and sisters, the children, the friends of the grandparents, brothers and sisters hate you. Kill the spouses of the people you've killed? Now their entire families hate you. Kill the friends? Now their entire families, their spouses and their spouses entire families hate you. You killled just one friend, and now you have 20 more people who hate you... Kill those 20 and now 50 different people hate you. Kill those 50 and now 150 others hate you. Kill those 150, then the 400 then the 1000, then the 3000, then the 7500, then the 20000 then the 50000, then the 150000, then the 400000 and then.... Its not exactly efficient, is it? The ONLY way that has a chance of working is if you kill every single person of the country in question. Every single one.

But then what about people of that nationality living in the US? First you have to identify them so you can make plans to round them all up. So you have to research everyone's lineage to see who belongs to the ethnicity in question. And of course some people are of mixed race, so how much or how little is ok? Is 1/2 ethnic ok? 1/4? 1/8? Everybody into line to show your papers and family tree. And once you've identified some you have to keep track of them while you finish checking everyone else. Maybe if they all had to wear a star of david pa..., er I mean a crescent moon patch on their clothes? Then when youre ready its off to nice isolated humane camps where they can be "processed" into something non-threatening. Perhaps into dog food. But thats hardly a final solution is it, because look, there are still lots of them living in other countries all around the planet, and of course they all hate you now so theyre obviously enemies and must be killed. But you know, some of those countries seem to be a little worried about you and wont just hand them over. Better invade the rest of the world so you can get at these obvious troublemakers too, just in case. Funny thing though, a lot of your own people seem to be upset about what you've been doing inside your own country. Seems a lot of those undesirables had friends among your own people. Some had even married among your own people. And of course some of the other ethnicities in your country are worried that you might consider them undesirable too eventually, especially after the first dogfood boom dies down. All those illegal mexicans and chinese immigrants, obvious potential trouble, and such ingratitude too, opposing your right and proper anti-terrorism measures. Must be sympathisers. Ah, but we know how to deal with friends of terrorists, dont we? Time to design some new patches. And some religious groups are objecting too, on some namby-pamby doormat grounds or other. More patches. Or hmm, theyre religious, maybe we should be culturally sensitive and order a forest of crosses, sharpened menorahs and so on?

Get the point?

No, raw force doesnt work unless you can take it to the ultimate degree, and the smaller and more integrated the world becomes the less possible it is to do that. Back during the trojan wars forinstance it was possible to eradicate an opposing nation-state. There was little travel and little intermarraige so almost all of the enemies citizens were within its own borders, and the webs of trade, friendship and communications were minor which limited the backlash from genocide. But today every ethnicity and nation has people all over the place, and the webs of trade, friendships and communications engulf the planet. No section of the world can be eradicated without the rest of the globe feeling it.

But America HAS been wise enough to discover a method which DOES work to end the cycle of war and end the threat to the family and children you claim you would do anything to protect, and america has fortunately been rich enough, and strong enough in essential character to sometimes act on its discovery- friendship. Germany and Japan after WW2 are shining examples of what can be done if you approach a problem with a constructive and respectful attitude, especially Japan, which the US particularly had no reason to love, and which had a pretty alien culture to boot to complicate matters. But the wisdom of the US back then shows the way to longterm peace. Vindictive spite will not achieve it. Only careful, considered and open action can. A certain amount of surgical strikes against terrorists, openly performed and explained (that missile-armed drone strike a few months ago was a good one forinstance) coupled with a hearts and minds campaign towards the people of the area can succeed, although the political hash that is Isreal will make that more difficult. It is to be hoped that the US will be able to find the wisdom of an earlier generation again in the months and years to come, and not succumb to base temptation.

So Krewlade, will you learn from history, or repeat it? Are you strong enough to follow the course that will create the lasting peace that will truly protect the family and children you claim you will do anything to protect though it cause you pain, or are you really only interested in what will satisfy your immediate selfish testosterone urges? Are you a man or a child?

*Hugs*
Varia

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » December 29, 2002, 11:45 am

It's not like they're choosing random names or something.

That's highly debatable. I do not trust the US government to tax me correctly, fill out a form correctly, or just plain leave me the fuck alone. I certianly do not trust them to "brutally interrogate" people they suspect as being terrorists and not be at least 75% wrong in the vast majority of victums.

There is a reason we have "rules" people. One of those rules is not to torture people. Simply pointing out that we're breaking the rules in a round-about way is the only point I need to make in order to be correct in this argument because those rules are based upon our own agreed upon rules of international law.

As far as alternatives, drugs would seem like a viable alternative to physical torture. As Kyo stated, physical torture simply does not produce accurate results. Look how many people, back in the day, admitted to being witches under heavy torture? People just say what they think the torturer wants to hear. Nothing more, nothing less.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » December 29, 2002, 11:56 am

I'm thrilled.

In 20 years when the U.S. declassifies this information and holds itself fiscally accountable for torturing suspects, I'll make millions being a civil rights attorney.

Yeah, it's way cool.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 29, 2002, 12:20 pm

It's been almost 40 years since JFK's assassination. We still don't know jack.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » December 29, 2002, 12:44 pm

Xyun

The "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" thing is actually applicable, they decided to work evil on us.

So we return it, and you think it is wrong?

Perhaps what you wanted was something more along the lines of turning the other cheek. Of course ask jewish people how well that worked in the 1930's and 40's.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » December 29, 2002, 12:50 pm

"They" are out to get you. Interesting you cannot identify the people that you are supposidly paying back for similar actions so you are forced to refer to them as "they" repeatedly.

Were the 1000+ arabs you pulled of the streets of US cities and imprisoned for over a year with no trial and 0 charges being laid against any of them to this day memebers of "they"?

From my perspective it seems americans believe strongly in human rights...but only for american citizens.

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » December 29, 2002, 2:31 pm

Varia wrote:

But America HAS been wise enough to discover a method which DOES work to end the cycle of war and end the threat to the family and children you claim you would do anything to protect, and america has fortunately been rich enough, and strong enough in essential character to sometimes act on its discovery- friendship. Germany and Japan after WW2 are shining examples of what can be done if you approach a problem with a constructive and respectful attitude, especially Japan, which the US particularly had no reason to love, and which had a pretty alien culture to boot to complicate matters. But the wisdom of the US back then shows the way to longterm peace. Vindictive spite will not achieve it. Only careful, considered and open action can. A certain amount of surgical strikes against terrorists, openly performed and explained (that missile-armed drone strike a few months ago was a good one forinstance) coupled with a hearts and minds campaign towards the people of the area can succeed, although the political hash that is Isreal will make that more difficult. It is to be hoped that the US will be able to find the wisdom of an earlier generation again in the months and years to come, and not succumb to base temptation

There is a huge difference between the approach the US had to Germany and Japan. Both of these nations were beaten after a long and costly war. Once they signed the treaty ending the war, only then could they be approached with something constructive.

To date no nation has declared war on the USA. Instead these Middle Eastern counties support these terrorist groups and have them wage a cowardly inhumane campaign against the USA and her allies. So who do you approach?

Kyoukan says to GTFO of the countries that the USA is supporting around the World and let them have at it. Umm ok Kyoukan you mental reject. You are perfectly happy giving into the demands of these assholes? Believe me if the USA pulled completely out of the Middle East the first thing that would happen is a war on Isreal. Guess what would happen next you fucking clueless moron? Israel faced with overwhelming odds, probably wouldn't be able to win a war against the entire Middle East, would most likely decide to use Nuclear Weapons. Now that is a much better situation wouldn't you agree MORON?

These terrorists do not deserve any breaks nor priviledges. They act completely outside of the Geneva convention statutes. I know what some of you are trying to say when you state that a political solution should be the goal. Well that IMO would be a tremendous mistake, for the same reason that the police do not give in to the demands of kidnappers and hostage takers. If the USA even ONE TIME decides to negotiate with these animals then it opens the door to EVERY single other faction or group that has a gripe with the USA. They will think WOW the Hamas got what they wanted let's do the same thing.

Nope unfortunately the only way to deal with terrorists is exactly like someone posted earlier. A full measure very messy public display of what will happen if you perform terrorist acts.

I think you are all putting the onus on the USA to offer the olive branch first. When in fact if even one of these nations actively worked to root out the terrorists within their own borders they would find that the USA's policy toward them would be different.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » December 29, 2002, 2:34 pm

People need help, we help them, the surviving regime of losers hates us.

People starve in the streets, deal with police and military brutality to their families, are forced to work jobs with no pay, and the U.S. comes in with a "presence" and liberates said people, feeds them, clothes them, etc....and the losing regime hates the U.S.

People are under the very threat of terrorism every day, human bombs, car bombs, any kind of bomb you can think of...the U.S. is now trying to steamroll terrorists...the world will be safer...and the losing regime hates the U.S.

People do not have electricity, do not have Television, do not have the internet, do not have phone lines, they have no way of seeing the outside world...the U.S. tries to find the most peaceful way of destroying the controlling regime...and they hate the U.S.

-------
All of the items above are what the U.S. has or is attempting a resolution on (with the help of a few other fantastic countries).

You don't agree with the U.S.'s (Allied) way of doing it...I really don't think that gives you a right to call us wrong. What I'm trying to say is: What the fuck has your ass done for these people?? I'll give you the quick answer before you have to look it up: Nothing! If anything, you have helped prolong the persecution of the common people.

You, along with many people in this world, are eager to adopt the "ignore the problem and it will go away" mentality. I'm damn proud that MY country takes the high road, the moral road, the road less traveled, and attempts to help the common people. The only thing you see is the controlling regimes people, the 5% of the country who lives well. What about the common person?? You forsake them as much as their current masters do.

Oh, and since certain people like "pigeon-holing" others because they use pronouns...I see you as a supporter of the old-regimes, the losers to our wars. You would see the old regimes revived so they could persecute their countrymen, women and children into making money for the 5%. Yeah, sure, sugar coat that with your "humanitarianism" and other bullshit propaganda. All you are is a bigot.

And about the interrogations...who are we to say anything until "Brutal Interrogation methods" is defined. the word "brutal" is a subjective one, and can have a vast difference in degrees of seriousness based on who is using the word. I would say all this report does for me is raise my interest in how we are interrogating. Human rights are what the U.S. is trying to defend here...so we really cannot take the "torture" route...which I truly doubt is happening. No doubt, it is an opinionated CNN noobie reporter making things sound worse than they are just to get more hits on his/her article.

*(I use "you" as a pronoun for all the haters of the U.S., so if you hate the U.S., then I mean you!

)

edit: correct mispoken agendas

Millie · Post by **Millie** » December 29, 2002, 2:44 pm

I hate to come down on the side of the Right Wingers for once, but I have to concur here. Terrorists sacrifice their human rights the minute they take multiple lives (or aid those who do).

There is no negotiating with these people. They see the United States as their mortal enemy, and they're not going to change that opinion, no matter how much peace talking or kow-towing we do. We can be as soft as we want on them; they'll still hate us just as much. That being the case, we might as well extract information from them if we can get it. If the means to do so are slightly barbaric, so be it. Terrorism is far more barbaric, anyhow.

Two wrongs don't always make a right. But in this sort of world, it's not about 'wrong' or 'right.' It's about making the best decision possible at the time. We can't just twiddle our thumbs and hope this whole mess goes away. We have to act, and we have to act as best we can.

If we negotiate with terrorists, we send the clear message that terrorism WORKS. It gets groups what they want. On the other hand, if terrorists realize that their actions cost them their own people's lives, and that they achieve nothing, then eventually they'll get the picture.

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » December 29, 2002, 2:46 pm

Kluden the statements you make are part of the reason some people hate the USA. Your statements make it look like the USA is the only country doing anything for anybody. Which is total bullshit. Many other nations contribute on scale to all of these things you mention, the UK, Australia, Canada, France, Germany etc etc etc... Be careful what you say because as I said many other nations have shared the responsibility.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » December 29, 2002, 2:57 pm

Hammer, I did not forget the other fantastic countries out there that are part of the Allied effort. I mention them right away after the examples.

But I imagine you are refering the one line I said about "what you or your country have done". Ok...I admit, that is a bit, shall we say, "off". I'll edit that line.

Krewlade · Post by **Krewlade** » December 29, 2002, 3:11 pm

Varia you are right that is the extreme and its impossible. When someone hits you you hit them back harder. That is how you take care of things if you dont everyone will take a piece of your ass.

When people get out of line it is every ones responsibility to put them back in line. Sometimes this requires force Force is the supreme authority figure from which all other authority is derived, raw force has resolved more issues throughout history than any other factor contrary to the opinion that "violence never solves anything". This is wishful thinking at its worst people who forget this always pay".

You honestly think that germany or japan would have stopped if we hadnt dropped bombs on them? Maybe if we had just called em up and said hey thats not nice stop doing that lets be friends they would of stopped
?

Think about what it took to become friends with germany and japan what it took to get them to listen. Extreme but nescessary.

They will not stop you can talk till your blue in the face. You can do unto others as you would have them do unto you all day. These people hate you and would just as soon cut your throat as listen to you. Hit back when hit AND HIT HARDER. make examples of them show them what can happen to them if they commit these acts. It is sad but if it takes killing hundreds or thousands to get them to listen then so be it.
You do not negotiate with these people you eradicate them.

Soreali · Post by **Soreali** » December 29, 2002, 3:14 pm

Kguku wrote:They should shock their balls like those damn Iraqies did to Santa on South Park, those bastards!

Not santa's balls!

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » December 29, 2002, 3:38 pm

Forthe wrote:"They" are out to get you. Interesting you cannot identify the people that you are supposidly paying back for similar actions so you are forced to refer to them as "they" repeatedly.

Were the 1000+ arabs you pulled of the streets of US cities and imprisoned for over a year with no trial and 0 charges being laid against any of them to this day memebers of "they"?

From my perspective it seems americans believe strongly in human rights...but only for american citizens.

Do you realize the implicit double-standard you are applying to the USA here?

The Constitution of the United States applies to citizens of the USA and not to the rest of the world. When we as a country try to export our values and beliefs then the Kooky-bitches of the world accuse us of meddling and interfering.

As an citizen of the USA, I have virtually no obligation to any other country or group other than that dictated by my personal ethics, morality and religion. More importantly... my government's FIRST and foremost obligation is to it's own citizens... FUCK the rest of 'ya!

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » December 29, 2002, 4:03 pm

"Besides, what I think you should do is GET THE FUCK OUT OF THEIR COUNTRIES AND STOP INTERFERING WITH THEM and watch terrorism against the west 100% vanish in a matter of days.", kyoucandamoron.
This has to be the most moronic statement I have ever heard.

If you believe that...well nm you are an idiot anyways. First off ya might aswell join the Nazi's and start exterminating the Jewish people..cause thats what will happen 100%. When those countries are able(if lead by fundamentalist), they will destroy Israel and fufill one of Hitlers dreams...btw Arafats uncle was a personal friend of shitty old Adolf...

Look and read History...its a hell OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS better to have OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of little skirmishes then a mass death that will occur being isolationist. If US did take the isolated or the chamberlain method of actions...Iraq would already have Nukes(like they almost had in 91..thank god Israel bomb that plant). And terrorist would already have nukes...and yes they still would be attacking...Look what happened in Yugoslavia with Russia with Europe with the pacific ALL AROUND THE WORLD!..hell look whats been happening the pass 1 thousand or 2 years. There has been a constant Holy war..wih 5-15% of the people. Hell in Philipines christans wake up in the morning in there houses and find family members with there heads chopped off, cause why there religion. Milosivich(sp) started mass genocide in Yugo. because of terrorist....We dont want more Hitlers created...hell if we dont do something about this Germany will begin to be so infiltrated(like before WWII) or Russia..that would make the turf ripe for another mad man to take over and there will be mass extermination in the world. Hell most middle eastern friends I have, there families had to run from slaughter in OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of the more radical countires..Im paranoid hell, no look at History.

The US stayed out of most peoples business and look we get bombed in WWII.

We now police the world with most the worlds support and we get planes flying into our buildings.

What ever we choose we will have people die. Utopia is dead..hell thats the way the world is and ya just gotta except it.

In another 50 years were suppose to have a nuke blow up in one of our cities..thats why our Govt is basically in Panic on both sides of the isle(thats why they on the most part have been supporting each other and united)...to many people now have this technology and since 15% of the middle east has always been in a holy war with the west and the united states..Its just a matter of time before they get that technology and they wont hesistate to use it like we would. They feel they will go up to heaven ect.

National strat. for the middle east requires Iraq be taken out...not so much for many of the reasons ya hear except to insure they dont create mass destruction wepons that will get into hands of terrorist in the future(Saddam has sons in charge of the wep. systems)..also to destabilize the entire middle east..Iraq is a little fish they are like a kingdom that is a buffer for the church...Iran is who our Gov't is really targeting the Iran radical church faction..the ones that breed the terrorist groups...Iraq will be a base of democracy right by them..sprouting in prosperity in another 5 years..and the people in Iran are ripe to do what the people in Turkey did..Ban those fundamentalist from doing there crap...Its a hell OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more complicated then your dumn ass can understand Kyoucan., and running out wont solve a thing...unless ya ready to hile your old guard and break out your iron cross. And start gassing and slaughtering Jewish people. The only way the west may be at peace with the middle east is by getting friendly govts in power and help them keep there own backyards clean or let Israel and its people be destroyed..Im a Christan man and Ill be damn and will give my life to prevent another horror that happened to the jewish people in WWII.

With all that being said, "If they arent a US citizen, then they dont require being protected by our laws."..Im for whatever it takes to try and prevent the inevitable from occuring..Hell when did any contries act civil to others? did any in WWI or WWII..one of the most civil countries has been the US, so dont know why we get bashed the most about it.

I think 80-90 percent of the people on this planet are good people over all in heart..its the other 10-20percent that fuck it up for the rest of us...then the other 40-60percent of the good hearted people that cant see shit till it hits em and there knocked on there ass and there family is dead.

Wake up!

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » December 29, 2002, 6:11 pm

You preach about protecting your own. The US had nothing to do with anything until they stuck their noses in other peoples business (for the sake of oil, not human rights....but thats a whole other thread). You think you can poke your nose in constantly and not take a shot to the face just once? Does it matter that almost the entire world doesn't like your country? Personally I think you guys should seal your borders, set up your missle defense system, and take care of your own before something else fucked up happens like 9-11. Those terrorists are crazy extremists and are about as easy to kill off as cockroaches. There's no way Bush can do it and he knows it.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » December 29, 2002, 7:03 pm

Aye your right there is NO WAY in Hell Bush can do it!!! Or the US you cant kill a belief, but you can help contain it to within there own borders, so its not as wide spread.

Let them clean up there own mess....help get proper people in control that want peace. And not these Tyrants that will spread this evil over our contries in Europe Israel and so forth.

Ive traveled the world many of times and the World does not hate America thats a bunch shit and hog wash propaganda..leave us and our friends alone and well not be butting in simple as that. Also if we did seal up everything would that stop anything..you know other countries r being attacked more freq. than the US and they arent doing shit outside of there country. You want to slow it down(not stop it ever) change the source.

sarlen · Post by **sarlen** » December 29, 2002, 7:05 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:Torturing is the most unreliable way of extracting information EVER.

Ya but its soooo much fun....

Krewlade · Post by **Krewlade** » December 29, 2002, 7:10 pm

Oh your one of those lets ignore it all and it will go away people. Lets all just stay out of each others business. Lemme tell you what happens when you ignore this kind of thing or the things going on in the world. Small problems get bigger. Extremists who were not stopped or policed now have much more powerful weapons and have grown much larger in numbers. Now they have better weapons more people more power and bigger heads. Is it a 100 percent fact that they will go after other places and people once they have the power to do so? No, but why take the chance?

What are the possible reasons for them to have nukes or other weapons of mass killing. Im pretty sure its not just cuz its the cool thing to do. They want more power, which leads me to believe they are power hungry which leads me to think they will go after others when they have enough power to do so. Your goddamn lucky the US sticks its nose in as you put it. We have OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of power we could wipe out any of these little places wipe them off the face of the earth. We dont, instead we try to help them we help OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS. We do the best we can to try to protect everyone. If your country is invaded and your people killed who are you gonna run to for help. I guess we just sit back and mind our own business.

Prevention is much better than damage control.

Stop them now or at least try. Letting them do whatever they want is as bad as saying its ok. If we cant stop them then at least WE tried.

I am still amazed that people still see this as a racial thing or religous or money thing. Like the guy above me posted get rid of the tyrants and get people who want peace and who do listen in charge. They apparently cant do it themselves. Ignore the cancer it will go away. Your right when your dead it will go away.

beasted · Post by **beasted** » December 29, 2002, 7:39 pm

"...the "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" thing is actually applicable, they decided to work evil on us.

So we return it, and you think it is wrong?..."

maybe someone addressed this point already, but in the midst of all the idiocy i had to pick through in order to find the few and far between intelligent posts, i may have missed it.

"do unto others as you would have them do unto you", does not mean "do unto others as they are DOING to you".
if someone treats you like shit, and you turn around and throw it back in their faces ten-fold, you're not on a moral high ground, you're a hypocrite.

the idea of the quote is to teach the lesson of at least attempting to treat others how you would like to be treated. get it?

we'd be a lot better off as a country ... no, we'd be a lot better off as a species if we even remotely came close to practicing this, before it's too late (if it isn't already?).

Neroon · Post by **Neroon** » December 29, 2002, 7:45 pm

I think what Teurde is referring to Krewlade, is our complete and utter hosing up of the middle east during the cold war. We created OBL, we created Saddam, and countless other leaders of both state and terrorist organizations.

The problem now, is fixing our fuck up, whithout creating more of them in the process. I don't think the current administration has the ability to do that.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » December 29, 2002, 8:00 pm

The problem with the Hussein situation is that it cannot be resolved cleanly by either of America's competing philosophies of foreign policy -- namely, interventionism or isolationism. What's happening in Iraq is both none of our business and entirely our business, and we have to act in a more calculated way than we're used to.

It's not as easy as it sounds, because there is no direct historical correlation. We learned in World War II that appeasing a power-hungry dictator only strengthens his drive for power. His conquests and human rights violations become everyone's problem, and everyone needs to respond.

On the other hand, the Cold War saw an era where America was free to do pretty much whatever it wanted, often via the CIA, so long as our interests were bolstered against the Soviets. The problem with this line of thinking is evident only now: the powers we created to counter Russian advances are now our enemies after the Soviet collapse. Bin Laden, Hussein, and others are all American-trained, Ameircan-armed, and now vehemently anti-American. In this post-Cold War world, we realize that stability in any given region (i.e., the Middle East) cannot be maintained hegemonically. The various countries of the area need to balance power on their own. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be capable of doing so in a non-agressive manner.

As of today, America's presence in the Middle East is the only stabilizing force in the region. But how long it can prevail, and even whether it should, are up for debate.

We need to solve the Middle East question with measured force and tactful diplomacy. We need to involve these countries in a forging of borders, peace, and stability. Everyone in the region must be brought to the negotiating table and given a role to play. If that sounds idealistic, realize that the UN should serve as a de facto "threat" against reneging on the peace agreement. Any nation violating the borders established in a multilateral settlement will incur the world's (not just the US's, but the world's) wrath. That way, a Hussein figure becomes everyone's bad guy. He won't be able to play off the US as an imperialist force looming over the Middle East. If a settlement is agreed upon by his neighbors, he will be isolating himself from them if he acts up.

Unfortunately, I don't believe George Bush is capable of spearheading such a peace. His unilateral actions only further alienate our country from the rest of the world. His Cold War politics won't work in the modern world.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 29, 2002, 8:51 pm

Millie wrote:

Unfortunately, I don't believe George Bush is capable of spearheading such a peace. His unilateral actions only further alienate our country from the rest of the world. His Cold War politics won't work in the modern world.

This peace thing you speak of is unattainable. There never has nor will there ever be "world peace".

"World Peace" is a trite little thing dumb beauty pagent contestants dream of. It sounds cute, but is impossible.

Once you can detach your feeble minds from such a notion, you then can try and think of "realistic" means of foreign policy. There will always be some sort of conflict.

Unfortunately the world right now relies on oil. It is a shame we do so, when there are scientists out there who have been working on cleaner, more cost efficient ways of energy. But the billionaires who control oil also have much political pull, "world-wide", and will not allow these better ways to come to the fore front.

So....until then, our governments will make sure we have a decent supply of oil. If that means we have to wage battle against a scummy, backwards, nation of people who opress women, beat anyone who dares speak against the government, then so be it.

You little peace loving dreamers can go on clogging up the real world all you like. If you would just join reality you could actually contribute real solutions towards the future.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » December 29, 2002, 9:09 pm

Midnyte, I don't get the impression you bothered to read through my post. If you had, you wouldn't have thought I was talking about "world peace." The fact is, I'm not. I'm talking about attaining regional stability in the Middle East -- in other words, a balance of power, maintained by threat of international force. It's only a "peace" in the sense that no one country is asserting itself over all others. So I use the term "peace" loosely, and metaphorically.

Before you go off criticizing my opinions, you might be bothered to read them over and understand them first. Wrap your "feeble little mind" around that. Until then, keep your mouth shut. Don't piss in the big kids' pool just because you're too little to swim in it.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 29, 2002, 10:10 pm

Hammer et al- I'm absolutely happy to whack terrorists for their assorted crimes. I have no problem with "brutal interrogation" of terrorists. What I do have a problem with is the process by which a person gets to be labelled as a terrorist to become subject to interrogation or whacking in the first place. My point is that such labelling must be done in such a manner that is, and is seen to be, impartial, fair and accurate. Anything else is a dangerous slide towards the pleasantries of a police state. But once specific people HAVE been so identified then by all means interrogate them brutally if you can, and whack them if you cant. But as cleanly and openly and with as little colateral damage as you can, so you do wind up with fewer enemies overall. The drone strike recently is one example of a clean kill. The gunship video thats been making the rounds lately is another where they killed anything that moved outside, but were very careful not to touch the mosque. They killed their targets, but did not cause more ill-will by destroying a religious site. Thats the way to do it, rather than the "just destroy their village" attitude some people around here have been espousing.

No, you dont negotiate with terrorists while theyre operating as terrorists, and I didnt suggest it. I suggested doing a hearts and minds thing on the population that the terrorists draw their recruits from, and thus slowly starving them of their support. Granted thats a lot easier to do once you physically occupy their country, as in japan and germany. The problem is that in those cases the populations of those countries knew that they were at war, there was no doubt about it, and thus understood why they were attacked, defeated and occupied. But the populations of most of the countries harboring terrorists these days do not understand or believe it. As far as theyre aware they are not at war, and will not understand why if they are attacked and occupied, and that breeds resistance and escalation. Hence the need for alternate strategies.

I'm out of time to answer the rest, so I'll get back to it later when I can. 'Scuse the incomplete response and lack of polishing.

Oh, minor item about the "if the US pulls out of the middle east then Isreal will be attacked by and have to fight the the entire middle east, and they'll be crushed" thing. You really should pay a bit more attention- Isreal has ALREADY fought the entire middle east. SEVERAL times. Not crushed yet. And its unlikely that Egypt, one of their most powerful enemies in the previous wars, would be involved in another one against them now.

*Hugs*
Varia

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 29, 2002, 10:10 pm

I was attacking the notion of peace. Not your particular opinion, big kid.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » December 29, 2002, 10:52 pm

I think all you bass ackward hillbillies don't really understand the attitude of the rest of the world towards the U.S. Your dumbass "might makes right" statements will backfire in your fucking face when you try to force your might on people. Not only because half of your own country will be against it, but also the majority of the rest of the world.

WTF are you gonna do?? Invade North Korea or Iran or even Iraq? Bomb their plants? Half the Asian world and most of the Arab world already hates you. You won't win any allies going around bombing people like a fucking bully. In fact, you will increase resentment towards the US and you will increase terrorism.

Using force to squelch the weak unites the weak against you. Look at Hitler you dipshits.
Are you people really prepared for another world war?

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » December 29, 2002, 11:24 pm

Aye thats why the security council was unanimous even syria.

Also Hitler was the weak and look at what ignoring him caused ya dipshit.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » December 29, 2002, 11:30 pm

/hug Varia

What ya said would be true except this is a new age when mass destruction weapons will become much easier to acquire and make..Israel is very tiny and could not handle such type of attack without responding with a response well which is sad devestating...many millions of peoples life would be loss. Why goto that level when ya can atleast try to prevent it now.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » December 30, 2002, 3:44 am

Because the USA is the most powerful, wealthy nation on the planet they will always be a target of terrorism (the have/have not syndrome). Add to this the fact that the USA is considered to be the main country where Christianity is considered the main religion and you get the picture.

By getting the US involved these terrorist groups unite the fringe elements, fundamentalist in such a way that like cockroaches they will breed in significant numbers in the dark so as to become virtually impossible to wipe out.

Everyone always talks about the USA using other countries as pawns or setting up puppet governments. While this may be a true statement I believe that the extremists will use the USA as a pawn to galvanize their people and to turn world opinion against the the country with the biggest stick. Imagine trying to get financial, physical aid without having a big bad devil to target (USA).

After 9/11 many of us believed that there was not a measure that should not be taken, no weapon should be excluded from hunting these beasts down and slaughtering them all.

You want this to end Kyoukan?? Do you honestly believe removing all influence both military and political in the Middle East will achieve this?

If the brutal torture of one hundred terrrorists saves the life of one innocent it is worth it. Mind you applying the tag terrorist would have to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » December 30, 2002, 5:34 am

Do you honestly think you are a target because you have more nukes than anyone?

Drewno · Post by **Drewno** » December 30, 2002, 7:12 am

We are a target because of two reasons:
#1: We support Israel. EVERY FUCKING PERSON in the middle east hates them, but we give them a SHITLOAD of cash/weapons/equipment.
#2: Iran-Contra / Military Actions: We lied our asses off to them, and we've taken over two of their countries, installing pro-west governments in them. We have two more countries on the way.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 30, 2002, 11:15 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I was attacking the notion of peace. Not your particular opinion, big kid.

Of all the fucking idiots that have posted in this thread, you're the biggest.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » December 30, 2002, 11:16 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I was attacking the notion of peace. Not your particular opinion, big kid.

It seemed pretty damned clear that you were trying to quote my post as an example of the notion of peace you were attacking. Call me crazy, but when someone quotes me and follows it with "...detach your feeble minds from such a notion," I tend to think they're attacking my particular opinion.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » December 30, 2002, 12:14 pm

Thats precisely the point- Under the civil rights laws, which are a fundamental part of the constitution, most especially the ones regarding Due Process, the government IS obliged to share their reasons with you or at least (when there are security issues, like protecting sources) with reliable impartial civilian bodies that the public trusts

These are not US citizens, they do not have a constitutional right to due process.

Kyou, one of these days when you are all grown up and have to deal with a problem larger than which Barbie Ken gets to play hide the sausage with, you will understand.

Until then take your know-nothing, slam-when-I-can, definition-inventing ass back to the sludge pond you crawled out of. I am truly sick of your racism bullshit.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 30, 2002, 12:29 pm

so do non-US citizens not have rights granted under the Constitution for crimes committed within the US?

Or are their rights null and void if htey are apprehended outside of the US?

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » December 30, 2002, 12:39 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Dec29.html

We're currently paying for our past dealings with these countries.

Btw, torture is against human rights. Human rights applies to everyone, no matter what country you are from.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 30, 2002, 6:47 pm

Fallanthas wrote:
Kyou, one of these days when you are all grown up and have to deal with a problem larger than which Barbie Ken gets to play hide the sausage with, you will understand.

There is nothing constitutional about basic fucking human rights you fucking stupid moron. If you think your government has the right to point their fingers at whoever they want and then do whatever they want to them, then you are an even stupider shithead than I thought you were. And believe me when I say I already thought of you as a pretty stupid shithead.

Drewno · Post by **Drewno** » December 30, 2002, 7:07 pm

Human rights applies to everyone, no matter what country you are from.

Absolutely correct.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » December 30, 2002, 7:16 pm

And that would include the right not to be blown to fucking pieces by some cocksucker trying to make a point, right?

When your hearts stop bleeding, maybe you can wake up and look for a solution. You either live by a standard or forfeit your right to be considered a part of said standard.

No, terrorists who are not US citizens do not have the right to due process here UNTIL they enter the judicial system. At that point they receive the same treatment as any other.

But then, if you lived here you would know that Kyou baby.

I don't think physical torture is all that effective, from what I know of it. I damn sure KNOW that these cocksuckers deserve whatever the hell they get.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » December 30, 2002, 7:20 pm

Although I agree in the principle of Human Rights applying to everyone, I would ask one or two questions of Kyoukan.

Kooky if these people are convicted of being accomplices before or after the attacks of September 11 what if anything should be done with them?

Bearing in mind the tremendous value they placed on the lives of innocents murdered on that black day.

What would your plan be for the removal of all American influence in the Middle East both military and political?
When you answer that I would like to see what your crystal ball says would be the result of such actions.

Forget all of your witty flames and name calling, prove yourself to be the intelligent person some think you are.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 30, 2002, 7:23 pm

and what constitutes 'entering the judicial system'?

seems to me, apprehension by law enforcement starts that process.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » December 30, 2002, 7:33 pm

Atokal wrote:Bearing in mind the tremendous value they placed on the lives of innocents murdered on that black day.

You racist.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » December 30, 2002, 7:36 pm

Vor,

Doesn't look to me like any charges were ever filed. And they aren't under the control of a law enforcement agency, but the federal government directly.

These guys are being treated as agents of another country, not criminals.

Krindol · Post by **Krindol** » December 30, 2002, 7:54 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote: There is nothing constitutional about basic fucking human rights you fucking stupid moron. If you think your government has the right to point their fingers at whoever they want and then do whatever they want to them, then you are an even stupider shithead than I thought you were. And believe me when I say I already thought of you as a pretty stupid shithead.

I have two questions for you.

1. If 9/11 happened in Canada instead of the US, and we pretend for the sake of argument that your country could actually defend itself, what do you think your country would do?

2. Is there a lack of oxygen in the tiny ass world you live in?

Face it, weather you like it or not, even your country would do what it had to do to get the information it needed.

Krin

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 30, 2002, 8:33 pm

1. The question is an absurdity because it would never happen in Canada. The way your government acts with it's foreign policy is the very reason 911 occured in the first place. If Canada tried to assert itself militarily all over the place, trample all over other cultures and religions and was run by a bunch of bomb happy cowboy rednecks who conduct most of their foreign relations with cruise missiles and continue to grant billions of dollars a year in welfare to a land grabbing enemy state, then maybe you would have an argument.

2. There is plenty of oxygen in my world. Are there schools in yours? Because you sure are a fucking dumbass.

Ky

Krindol · Post by **Krindol** » December 30, 2002, 10:18 pm

Congradulations Kyo for another perfect flame. It got me right ( (*) ) here!

cid · Post by **cid** » December 30, 2002, 10:28 pm

Can't belive there is a anti American post that Kyo has posted too!! Over and Over. I am just fucking shocked!!

Just boycott anything American. Starting with the server that this site is hosted on.

KTHKS!!!

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 30, 2002, 10:40 pm

Name one time I've ever said anything anti-american.

I don't like your protectionist special interest driven cowboy government, I don't like your foreign policies. That doesn't make me anti-american.

But please keep continuing to play that card. It's so convicing. Look, all your fellow stupid idiots are buying it!

Krindol · Post by **Krindol** » December 30, 2002, 11:08 pm

Every time you open your snout its harsh American sentiment. All of your posts drip with it.

Everyone here can see that.

VeeshanVault

CNN reports on captured Terrorists..

K you can say moron?

heh