Bush's no to Kyoto caused by Exxon pressure?

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Drolgin Steingrinder
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Bush's no to Kyoto caused by Exxon pressure?

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

A story from The Guardian today - http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange ... 46,00.html
President's George Bush's decision not to sign the United States up to the Kyoto global warming treaty was partly a result of pressure from ExxonMobil, the world's most powerful oil company, and other industries, according to US State Department papers seen by the Guardian.
The documents, which emerged as Tony Blair visited the White House for discussions on climate change before next month's G8 meeting, reinforce widely-held suspicions of how close the company is to the administration and its role in helping to formulate US policy.

In briefing papers given before meetings to the US under-secretary of state, Paula Dobriansky, between 2001 and 2004, the administration is found thanking Exxon executives for the company's "active involvement" in helping to determine climate change policy, and also seeking its advice on what climate change policies the company might find acceptable.
Other papers suggest that Ms Dobriansky should sound out Exxon executives and other anti-Kyoto business groups on potential alternatives to Kyoto.

Until now Exxon has publicly maintained that it had no involvement in the US government's rejection of Kyoto. But the documents, obtained by Greenpeace under US freedom of information legislation, suggest this is not the case.

"Potus [president of the United States] rejected Kyoto in part based on input from you [the Global Climate Coalition]," says one briefing note before Ms Dobriansky's meeting with the GCC, the main anti-Kyoto US industry group, which was dominated by Exxon.

The papers further state that the White House considered Exxon "among the companies most actively and prominently opposed to binding approaches [like Kyoto] to cut greenhouse gas emissions".

But in evidence to the UK House of Lords science and technology committee in 2003, Exxon's head of public affairs, Nick Thomas, said: "I think we can say categorically we have not campaigned with the United States government or any other government to take any sort of position over Kyoto."

Exxon, officially the US's most valuable company valued at $379bn (£206bn) earlier this year, is seen in the papers to share the White House's unwavering scepticism of international efforts to address climate change.

The documents, which reflect unanimity between the company and the US administration on the need for more global warming science and the unacceptable costs of Kyoto, state that Exxon believes that joining Kyoto "would be unjustifiably drastic and premature".

This line has been taken consistently by President Bush, and was expected to be continued in yesterday's talks with Tony Blair who has said that climate change is "the most pressing issue facing mankind".

"President Bush tells Mr Blair he's concerned about climate change, but these documents reveal the alarming truth, that policy in this White House is being written by the world's most powerful oil company. This administration's climate policy is a menace to humanity," said Stephen Tindale, Greenpeace's executive director in London last night.

"The prime minister needs to tell Mr Bush he's calling in some favours. Only by securing mandatory cuts in US emissions can Blair live up to his rhetoric," said Mr Tindale.

In other meetings documented in the papers, Ms Dobriansky meets Don Pearlman, an international anti-Kyoto lobbyist who has been a paid adviser to the Saudi and Kuwaiti governments, both of which have followed the US line against Kyoto.

The purpose of the meeting with Mr Pearlman, who also represents the secretive anti-Kyoto Climate Council, which the administration says "works against most US government efforts to address climate change", is said to be to "solicit [his] views as part of our dialogue with friends and allies".

ExxonMobil, which was yesterday contacted by the Guardian in the US but did not return calls, is spending millions of pounds on an advertising campaign aimed at influencing politicians, opinion formers and business leaders in the UK and other pro-Kyoto countries in the weeks before the G8 meeting at Gleneagles.

Yeah good call. Let's look to Exxon, a company with such a stellar environmental record, for input on how to deal with emission problems.
Wait, let's praise them too! You don't think they might have a less than altruistic interest in the matter?
In briefing papers given before meetings to the US under-secretary of state, Paula Dobriansky, between 2001 and 2004, the administration is found thanking Exxon executives for the company's "active involvement" in helping to determine climate change policy, and also seeking its advice on what climate change policies the company might find acceptable.
(my italics)

All this at a time while the science academies of the G8 countries including the US National Academy of Sciences along with China, Brazil and India agreed on the following statement:
There is now strong evidence that significant global warming is occurring. It is likely that most of the warming in recent decades can be attributed to human activities. The scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action. It is vital that all nations identify cost-effective steps that they can take now, to contribute to substantial and long-term reduction in net global greenhouse gas emissions.
Source

This is not a US-only thing. The way that governments around the world kow-tow to big business (admittedly some of the most grievous examples are from the US but I'm thinking that's mostly because that's where a majority of the major businesses are located - ExxonMobil in this case, Halliburton with Iraq etc) disgusts me. And the fact that our political systems have become so rotten that 'the people's representatives' are now representatives of corporations instead is just so fucking sad.
Last edited by Drolgin Steingrinder on June 8, 2005, 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zaelath »

Perhaps, but TBH most people are pretty shallow and self-centred. If you told them there was irrefutable proof the earth would become completely unlivable in their children's life time, but it would mean banning the combustion engine to stop it; they'd vote in droves to keep the cars.
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Post by kyoukan »

I'd be angrier if kyoto wasn't such a farce. it's not like the bush administration setting policy by the whims of major oil company executives is earth shattering news. christ half his cabinet are major oil company executives.
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Post by Voronwë »

Chevron had a tanker named after Condoleeza Rice. No joke. They changed it before Bush took office so as to not seem impropriatous.
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Post by Chmee »

Probably largely moot though, previously (in 1999) the senate had already passed a resolution, 95-0 that they wouldn't pass Kyoto in its current form.

I also prefer to concentrate more on the merits (or lack thereof) of proposed legislation/treaties/regulation than on who is supporting it. Who is supporting it can be somewhat useful just in the sense of how much checking you may want to do with their facts etc.. But ultimately you have to look at the argument itself rather than who is saying it. Regarding Kyoto, I am glad that we didn't join it. I don't think the case for human caused global warming that will be largely detrimental is sufficiently establised, and even if I did accept that case, I don't think Kyoto is a particularly good solution.
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Post by Sylvus »

I'm waiting for someone to come in and call you guys ass-pounding treehugger leftinazis, but it's just not happening. Why???
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Post by Voronwë »

Sylvus wrote:I'm waiting for someone to come in and call you guys ass-pounding treehugger leftinazis, but it's just not happening. Why???
because the Rush Limbaugh Radio Show, the O'Reilly Radio Factor, and the Sean Hannity show haven't fired up yet to feed the masses with talking points.

you see spikes in rightwing talking points on messageboards after noon Eastern Time!!

plus the Grover Norquist conference call to dissiminate the daily propaganda has only been over for an hour or so, and the wheels in Washington move slowly.
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Post by Sylvus »

Split the other discussion off as to not derail too badly. My apologies, Drolgin.

Doh, it appears Kilmoll was posting when the split happened, and it went to the wrong thread. His post, in its entirety, follows.
Kilmoll wrote:Well, it is probably a good move by Bush politically to do this. As Chmee said, it was not going to pass anyway, however, Bush shifted the blame to lay partially on Exxon as a high level advisor on the deal. Maybe it will be good to get some people pointing some fingers at the companies and lobbies who throw a lot of weight around.


BTW....no one jumped on Drolgin because he didn't throw baseless retarded accusations around. He is actually one who will make a reasoned post and give thought to responses. And being a Swede is way worse than being a Nazi.....
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Post by landertime »

you would think bush might have the decency to better hide the fact that he is a lifeless, soul-less puppet, only in the position he is in due to a complete lack of morals/ethics and the ability to be walked over by anyone with money and influence.

i mean, im sure the same generally applies to tony blair, but he is keeping the sheep (oops i mean people) generally happy by properly acting like its him making the decisions and that he gives one iota of a fuck of the publics opinion and views.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Well, it is probably a good move by Bush politically to do this. As Chmee said, it was not going to pass anyway, however, Bush shifted the blame to lay partially on Exxon as a high level advisor on the deal. Maybe it will be good to get some people pointing some fingers at the companies and lobbies who throw a lot of weight around.


BTW....no one jumped on Drolgin because he didn't throw baseless retarded accusations around. He is actually one who will make a reasoned post and give thought to responses. And being a Swede is way worse than being a Nazi.....
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Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Chmee wrote: Regarding Kyoto, I am glad that we didn't join it. I don't think the case for human caused global warming that will be largely detrimental is sufficiently establised, and even if I did accept that case, I don't think Kyoto is a particularly good solution.
I'd direct you to the quote above from the statement of the Academies. You're more than welcome to feel and believe as you do, but it seems to me to be a matter of faith rather than science for you, which strikes me as odd for someone that I know is a highly analytical and rational person. I sincerely doubt that 11 national academies would make a statement like this, risking their academic credibility, based on sheer conjecture.

As far as Kyoto not being the best or even a good solution, that's possible. I just think that when faced with the other prospect, ignoring the situation entirely, that Kyoto is most definitely the lesser of the evils.
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Post by Voronwë »

climate change as a result of human technology may not be a "matter of fact", but i think the prevailing opinion in the scientific community is that it is very likely occurring.

its not something i follow particularly closely, but i know i've read some "News and Views" features in Nature to that point. Again, arguably the most sober and rigorous publication ever.
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Post by kyoukan »

landertime wrote:you would think bush might have the decency to better hide the fact that he is a lifeless, soul-less puppet, only in the position he is in due to a complete lack of morals/ethics and the ability to be walked over by anyone with money and influence.
why bother? these days a rightie can do whatever the hell he wants his entire term and then all he has to do is idly threaten to ban abortion and throw fags into concentration camps if he gets re-elected, and wins instantly.
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Post by Nick »

Well said Drolglglglglgin. :D
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Post by Wulfran »

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:As far as Kyoto not being the best or even a good solution, that's possible. I just think that when faced with the other prospect, ignoring the situation entirely, that Kyoto is most definitely the lesser of the evils.
This is where I differ with Drolgin: Kyoto isn't a good solution. Its barely a starting point (if you agree with the science... which not everyone does). The increases from developing nations will erradicate any decreases the industrialized nations make, while putting the industrialized nations at an economic disadvantage if they are serious about meeting the goals. Yes, the more "advanced" nations can generally afford to take the hit (in fiscal terms if not necessarily political ones) but whats the point when it essentially accomplishes nothing in the long run?
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Post by Seebs »

This is the final straw .. .I'm no longer buying oil of oil products.


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Post by Sylvos »

dude i'll be right there with my granola powered bicycle!
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Post by Arborealus »

Wulfran wrote:
Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:As far as Kyoto not being the best or even a good solution, that's possible. I just think that when faced with the other prospect, ignoring the situation entirely, that Kyoto is most definitely the lesser of the evils.
This is where I differ with Drolgin: Kyoto isn't a good solution. Its barely a starting point (if you agree with the science... which not everyone does). The increases from developing nations will erradicate any decreases the industrialized nations make, while putting the industrialized nations at an economic disadvantage if they are serious about meeting the goals. Yes, the more "advanced" nations can generally afford to take the hit (in fiscal terms if not necessarily political ones) but whats the point when it essentially accomplishes nothing in the long run?
Well the point is to begin by reducing the annual increases and forcing industry to look in earnest towards alternatives.
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Post by Aabidano »

Following Kyoto would have some pretty large impacts on US industry and economy, and by association the rest of the world. Like it or not every industrialized nations economy is tied to the US's to one degree or another.

And as Wulf said, the net effect of the accords ends up around zero. It sounds great until you look at it realistically.

Something needs to be done, but this isn't it. It's not even a good start for that matter.
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Post by Nick »

What people are failing to realise is that the economy is going to take an exponentially greater hit if ignoring this continues.

If the economy is really what you're worried about, this would be clear to you.

What Wulf said is also true, but sadly apparantly raising the concept that the planet is being destroyed is apparantly justifiably ignored by going, "LOL GO HOME HIPPIE".

This, however, is hilarious :lol:
dude i'll be right there with my granola powered bicycle!
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Post by Chmee »

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:I'd direct you to the quote above from the statement of the Academies. You're more than welcome to feel and believe as you do, but it seems to me to be a matter of faith rather than science for you, which strikes me as odd for someone that I know is a highly analytical and rational person. I sincerely doubt that 11 national academies would make a statement like this, risking their academic credibility, based on sheer conjecture.
I don't think it is sheer conjecture on their part, but I am also not convinced the case is as strong as it is often portrayed. Its a big complicated issue, portions of it are better established than others. I've been following the issue for probably 8-10 years now (as a layman) and there still seem to be a fair number of unanswered questions.
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Post by Lohrno »

Well, not only did Bush ignore the Kyoto treaty, but the more telling things are Bush's relaxing of pollution standards for power plants and other things...
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Post by Chmee »

Lohrno wrote:Well, not only did Bush ignore the Kyoto treaty, but the more telling things are Bush's relaxing of pollution standards for power plants and other things...
Only case I really remember regarding power plants off the top of my head was the relaxing of New Source Review. Which from the sounds of it was worthwhile.

Lynn Kiesling explains the negative incentives NSR created

http://www.knowledgeproblem.com/archives/000056.html
Few environmental policies and response to them are as caricatured as new source review. Earlier this week the EPA finalized the changes to new source review that it proposed in December 2002. Basically, this ruling clarifies what kinds of equipment replacement will and will not trigger new source review, and it allows firms (typically power plants, refiners, etc.) certain equipment replacements without triggering new source review.

To hear some of the "environmentalist" and media folks talk about this, it's like the EPA has repealed all air quality regualtions and we'll be soon plummeted into a universe of dark, sooty skies. But how realistic an opinion is that? Not very, in my view. First, new source review and the stringent treatment of equipment upgrades has induced firms to stick with older, less efifcient, more polluting technology than they might otherwise have implemented. What the Chicken Litlle crowd often forgets is that fuel costs for these companies are a substantial portion of their budgets, so if power plants and refineries can get more bang for their fuel buck by installing new technology, they would like to. Furthermore, these newer technologies are cleaner burning, and therefore less polluting than the grandfathered ones. But if installing these new technologies will trigger a long, extensive, bureaucratic review, at the end of which you will be subject to more stringent emission regulation, are you going to want to go through all of that as long as you can avoid it? Certainly not. [NOTE: always remember and never forget that arguments like these are marginal arguments, that I am claiming at the margin that NSR induces less technology upgrading than we would see otherwise]
The whole post is worth a read.
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