An interesting question from the sports forum...

noel · Post by **noel** » March 9, 2005, 5:54 pm

I'm posting this here because it's a current event, and there are people in this forum that know more than I do.

This question was raised by Kluden in the sports forum regarding the recent announcement that congress will issuing subpoenas to current and former MLB players regarding steroid use.

Kluden wrote:Can someone explain to me why my tax dollars are being used in this way? What does congress have to do with baseball?

My response was"

It can be argued that if baseball players are using steroids, they're cheating.

It can be argued that if players are cheating, they're defrauding the public.

It can be argued that one of the roles of our congressmen is to represent the public interest.

It can be argued that the public is interested in knowing whether or not there are players hurting the integrity of what has been called 'our national pasttime'.

I know that congress has gotten involved in professional sporting labor negotiations in the past, but truly other than publicity, what reason other than the concept that I listed, should congress have for getting involved in the MLB steroid issue?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 9, 2005, 5:58 pm

I don't think they should be involved. I think we have WAY more problems right now than steroid use. I mean maybe if everything were great it could, but we still have years of reparations to do.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 9, 2005, 6:00 pm

Yeah, I don't think this should be taking up the time of congress.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 9, 2005, 6:00 pm

anti trust exemption

cid · Post by **cid** » March 9, 2005, 6:00 pm

If the owners or the commissioner will not do anything about it, someone needs to. It is illegal.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » March 9, 2005, 6:01 pm

anti trust exemption

You may have to explain what that means to Ak

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 9, 2005, 6:03 pm

i'd rather have Congress worrying about this than looting the middleclass to fund pork barrel policies.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 9, 2005, 6:03 pm

I'm all for illegal activities being hammered and people going to jail and out of the way for civilized society.

I don't, however, see a good reason as to why this should be delt with now instead of issues such as the national debt, healthcare, war, terrorism, internet commerce laws, the rising debt of almost every state in the country, ect.

cid · Post by **cid** » March 9, 2005, 6:07 pm

Well shit, if they fined everyone in MLB that does it. There goes our debt!

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » March 9, 2005, 6:18 pm

I think this hole steroid issue is horrible, but as Bonds said last week, it was never agaisnt the rule book back then. He has a point, but I hate him so much more now. It shouldnt have to be in the book.

But Noel had a great answer, you can view it as some type of fraud. However, I doubt this will take up every resource America has to offer.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 9, 2005, 6:25 pm

Lynks wrote:I think this hole steroid issue is horrible, but as Bonds said last week, it was never agaisnt the rule book back then. He has a point, but I hate him so much more now. It shouldnt have to be in the book.

I've heard this before, and it pisses me off every time I hear it. This isn't really directed at you, Lynks, but:

IT DIDN'T NEED TO BE IN ANY GOD DAMN RULEBOOK, THEY WERE AGAINST THE LAW. I HATE TO BREAK IT TO BONDS, BUT IN THE US, THE LAW > THE BASEBALL RULEBOOK.

FUCK.

Edit: The really sad thing about Bonds (and this is just my opinion) is that I think if he'd never juiced, he STILL would have been one of the greatest baseball players ever. The only difference is he wouldn't be approaching the home run records he is now. If you look at this stats for the years before he [appears to have] started juicing, and after, the hits go up, but the little things all go down. It's a real shame. I still think he's a great player, but I do hope that this becomes a black mark on his legacy and I hope he never, ever sees Cooperstown.

Of course, I'm only saying this because your black, Barry.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » March 9, 2005, 6:56 pm

noel wrote:IT DIDN'T NEED TO BE IN ANY GOD DAMN RULEBOOK, THEY WERE AGAINST THE LAW. I HATE TO BREAK IT TO BONDS, BUT IN THE US, THE LAW > THE BASEBALL RULEBOOK.

I didn't know it was actually against the law. How does GNC stay in business?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 9, 2005, 7:05 pm

for Barry Bonds to throw out the race card when he is catching heat as he approaches HENRY AARON's home run recod*, is a fucking joke. Aaron faced death threats from the KKK, and had a bodyguard whose job it was to shoot anybody that came on to the field to attack him. Incidentally, the guy didnt know what to do in that famous moment when two kids caught up with Aaron as he approached 3rd trotting after #715.

Mak- i didnt know you spelled G-N-C with the letters B-A-L-C-O

* - I get pissed when people say "Babe Ruth's record" of 714 home runs. It hasn't been his record for 33 years. Did Bonds pass "Willy Mays'" record to move into 3rd place all time?

No he "passed Willy Mays".

noel · Post by **noel** » March 9, 2005, 7:13 pm

Mak wrote:I didn't know it was actually against the law. How does GNC stay in business?

I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or a lack of understanding, but:

Supplements aren't illegal. Certain types of drugs require a prescription from a real doctor to be legally taken. Not being a pharmacist myself, I'm unable to tell you where the line is.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » March 9, 2005, 7:21 pm

noel wrote:
Mak wrote:I didn't know it was actually against the law. How does GNC stay in business?
I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or a lack of understanding, but:

Supplements aren't illegal. Certain types of drugs require a prescription from a real doctor to be legally taken. Not being a pharmacist myself, I'm unable to tell you where the line is.

It was not sarcasm.

Would you say it's the type of drugs that needs a doctor to prescribe that is the problem in baseball? In the Olympics, aren't there a lot of OTC drugs that are against the rules? Is the ratio of RX to OTC drugs great enough in MBL to warrant Congressional action?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 9, 2005, 7:28 pm

the drugs in question are not available by prescription or at the mall, so i'm not sure that matters.

it is very hard to draw the line of what is "performance enhancing". Is Vioxx performance enhancing? Older players taking that for joint inflammation considered retiring when the FDA took it off the market this winter. No joke.

but this case is about specific drugs some of which are illegal, and none of which are in the gray area of "performance enhancement" - as far as I can tell.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » March 9, 2005, 7:42 pm

Voronwë wrote:the drugs in question are not available by prescription or at the mall, so i'm not sure that matters.

Ok, that answers my question. Thanks.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 9, 2005, 7:42 pm

Mak wrote: Would you say it's the type of drugs that needs a doctor to prescribe that is the problem in baseball? In the Olympics, aren't there a lot of OTC drugs that are against the rules? Is the ratio of RX to OTC drugs great enough in MBL to warrant Congressional action?

With all due respect, I don’t believe there's any valid comparison between the rules governing doping/performance enhancing drugs in the Olympics/International sports community and what's currently happening in MLB.

The main reason I say this is because in the Olympics/International sports, it’s absolutely clear (and has been for quite some time) what is and what isn’t allowable. Additionally, the penalties of using a ‘banned substance’ is swift and severe. If you’re caught the first time, it’s generally a two-year ban. The second time is generally a lifetime ban. Additionally, in most international sport, if you’re caught doping, your stripped of your medals, records, etc.

Athletes that participate in International/Olympic sports pay a great deal of attention to what they eat/drink/ingest because of the harsh repercussions if they don’t.

But as far as GNC products go, most of what you have are things like vitamins, diet products, and amino acid supplements etc. In most cases (I’m sure there are exceptions), all of those products are legal to use in Olympic/international sports. Obviously new products are coming out all the time. Sports nutrition/supplements is a multi-million dollar a year business, so there’s money to be made. The international doping bodies WADA/IOC (World Anti-Doping Agency/International Olympic Committee) are very quick to ban any substance they deem to be illegal. Again, I’m not sure what the delimiting factor is.

Having followed cycling very closely for the last 10-15 years, I can tell you that it’s a completely different world with regard to what happens in the International sporting community, and what is in the US (my opinion) a problem that’s in its infancy.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » March 9, 2005, 8:09 pm

Damnit, now you have me interested in this.

I'm working downtown DC nowadays on a jobsite, I'll have to figure out what days these sessions are and see if it is open to public or press. I'll step in and hold up my sign:

"No new taxation to inspect Barry's head inflation!" or something catchy like that!

Seriously though, if it is illegal to use steroids in the US, then the FBI should open an investigation, present findings, and arrest. MLB can strip medals/awards/records/cooperstown introductions whenever after that.

I'm just trying to figure out what congress is going to do with a bunch of people "telling" them stuff, but no actual PROOF being introduced. Without blood tests, spinal taps, whatever the fuck they do years after to find steroid use, do that.

Seriously, if talking to baseball players who want to cover their ass is how they are going about this, why not look back to what Clinton said first: "I...did not...have intercourse.....with that woman."*...and was then proven wrong with "the stain"....you know, an object of proof, not someone's words (that could be true or not).

*: I'm sure I got the quote wrong, but it was something like that.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » March 10, 2005, 1:16 am

Baseball needs to stop BSing on this issue, and make it a mandatory test for performance enhancing stuff only, one strike and it is a season, two strikes and it is a career.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 10, 2005, 1:25 am

Unfortunately there is too much money involved

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » March 10, 2005, 1:43 am

Boogahz wrote:Unfortunately there is too much money involved

Exactly, baseball was resurrected by the Mark McGuire vs Samy Sosa homerun derby. It isn't in the league's interests to see performance decreases.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 10, 2005, 3:35 am

Heh. MLB returns fire in a compelling way:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2008972

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 10, 2005, 5:24 am

Akaran_D wrote:I don't, however, see a good reason as to why this should be delt with now instead of issues such as the national debt, healthcare, war, terrorism, internet commerce laws, the rising debt of almost every state in the country, ect.

Because, while nowhere near as important, this is something a very large number of people in this country are interested in. Mix in the media frenzy that will follow anything remotely closely relating to the word celebrity and now you have a guaranteed storm in the brewing.

And while everyone is so caught up with this, they're not even paying attention to any of those other issues you mentioned.

Or to give you a one word answer.
Politics.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 10, 2005, 11:21 am

Truant wrote:See above.

Exactly.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 10, 2005, 12:08 pm

Truant wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:I don't, however, see a good reason as to why this should be delt with now instead of issues such as the national debt, healthcare, war, terrorism, internet commerce laws, the rising debt of almost every state in the country, ect.

Because, while nowhere near as important, this is something a very large number of people in this country are interested in. Mix in the media frenzy that will follow anything remotely closely relating to the word celebrity and now you have a guaranteed storm in the brewing.

And while everyone is so caught up with this, they're not even paying attention to any of those other issues you mentioned.

Or to give you a one word answer.
Politics.

I tend to think the emphasis in what Ak is say is wrong from the start....

Akaran_D wrote:I don't, however, see a good reason as to why this should be delt with now instead of issues such as the national debt, healthcare, war, terrorism, internet commerce laws, the rising debt of almost every state in the country, ect.

To be naive enough to belief any other issue is getting less attention because a committee is discussing steroids, is just plain frightening.

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » March 10, 2005, 12:47 pm

This is all reminiscent of the quiz show investigations of the late 50s, isn't it.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 10, 2005, 1:03 pm

To be naive enough to belief any other issue is getting less attention because a committee is discussing steroids, is just plain frightening.

Midnyte.. very slowly, I'm going to introduce you to my reality.
In my reality, a day has 24 hours, and each hour has 60 minutes.
In my reality, you can only do so many things at any given time.
In my reality, my tax money went to pay the people to serve the invitations to the people that declined them.
In my reality, my tax money went to pay the people to serve the subpoenas to the people that declined the invitations.
In my reality, investigating steroid use in a sport that may go back 50, 60 years when there are other issues that need to be adressed in the above 60 minute hour of every working day that the people that I may or may not have voted for (and whom draw a salary based on the money I pay them based on their decisions) is a waste of time. Likely, it made the sport more 'popular' as a result of players hitting harder running farther, whatever.
In my reality, the investigation of steroid abuse should be done by the police force and not the legislature.
In my reality, the 2,3,6, working day hours that are spent on working on this issue detracts from other, actually important, challenges facing the government today.

When we have the rest of our problems fixed, sure, let's spend money and time that could be spent doing other, more important things before turning to our entertainment. Stop the wars, stop the price gouging at the gas station, stop allowing trailer trash to be nothing but baby dispensers while they live off of a flawed government care system, and then, THEN when you're done... legisilate the crap out of our entertainment if that is what you wish.

Please don't get me wrong. I think that if MLB is in violation of the Exemption agreement, they should be fined. But hauling them before Congress won't tell you much. Haul them into an interrogation chamber, do drug tests, whatever, and fine the fuck out of them - but you're not even admitting evidence, you're not passing judgment in this. They are finding out what they knew and that is Not the job of the Legislature. They are designed to MAKE the laws, NOT enforce them.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 10, 2005, 2:32 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:I don't, however, see a good reason as to why this should be delt with now instead of issues such as the national debt, healthcare, war, terrorism, internet commerce laws, the rising debt of almost every state in the country, ect.
To be naive enough to belief any other issue is getting less attention because a committee is discussing steroids, is just plain frightening.

Holy fuck balls, I actually agree with Midnyte.

These issues are not mutually exclusive. Steroid use is a national problem that involves more than just baseball.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 10, 2005, 2:57 pm

recentlyl Newsweek (i think, maybe SI) did a big story on how Steroids is a huge problem particularly in high school football in Texas.

I remember kids at my high school in the late 80s getting busted fors steroids.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 10, 2005, 3:02 pm

Akaran wrote:

When we have the rest of our problems fixed, sure, let's spend money and time that could be spent doing other, more important things before turning to our entertainment. Stop the wars, stop the price gouging at the gas station, stop allowing trailer trash to be nothing but baby dispensers while they live off of a flawed government care system, and then, THEN when you're done... legisilate the crap out of our entertainment if that is what you wish.

lol

You're so cute.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 10, 2005, 3:19 pm

Why are we handling issues like this with bigger problems out there? Simple, we have the time. Ignoring smaller issues just turns them into bigger issues over time. Knock them out now.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 10, 2005, 4:46 pm

How is this even an issue that the legislative branch needs to look at?
If it's a crime let the police handle it.

Investigating possible crime is not somthing that this branch of government is here for.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 11, 2005, 3:35 am

Voronwë wrote:recentlyl Newsweek (i think, maybe SI) did a big story on how Steroids is a huge problem particularly in high school football in Texas.

I remember kids at my high school in the late 80s getting busted fors steroids.

Yeah, the town that got busted was in my high school division. See my post over in the sports forum, I don't want to post twice about high school steroid use.

Anyways, in Texas, high school football is more important than church. These kids will do whatever it takes to be the best, and they have the money to get their hands on this stuff.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2005, 9:21 am

Truant wrote:
Voronwë wrote:recentlyl Newsweek (i think, maybe SI) did a big story on how Steroids is a huge problem particularly in high school football in Texas.

I remember kids at my high school in the late 80s getting busted fors steroids.
Yeah, the town that got busted was in my high school division. See my post over in the sports forum, I don't want to post twice about high school steroid use.

Anyways, in Texas, high school football is more important than church. These kids will do whatever it takes to be the best, and they have the money to get their hands on this stuff.

Not if mandatory testing is implemented on all levels including high school. They won't be in the program after coming up positive for steroids. If people know that they will be caught and removed from the team, they won't do it.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » March 11, 2005, 10:49 am

Then how come it doesnt stop people in the Olympics from taking steroids? They know their is testing and they know what happens if they get caught.

Like Truant said, these kids are willing to risk everything for a shot.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 11, 2005, 11:28 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Truant wrote:
Voronwë wrote:recentlyl Newsweek (i think, maybe SI) did a big story on how Steroids is a huge problem particularly in high school football in Texas.

I remember kids at my high school in the late 80s getting busted fors steroids.
Yeah, the town that got busted was in my high school division. See my post over in the sports forum, I don't want to post twice about high school steroid use.

Anyways, in Texas, high school football is more important than church. These kids will do whatever it takes to be the best, and they have the money to get their hands on this stuff.
Not if mandatory testing is implemented on all levels including high school. They won't be in the program after coming up positive for steroids. If people know that they will be caught and removed from the team, they won't do it.

I believe I said that in the other post in the other forum on this topic. Problem with split discussion on the same topic. But I don't think anything outside of the professional level will happen as a result of these hearings.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2005, 11:44 am

Lynks wrote:Then how come it doesnt stop people in the Olympics from taking steroids? They know their is testing and they know what happens if they get caught.

Like Truant said, these kids are willing to risk everything for a shot.

Doesn't it?

Every4 years you hear of one or two people....there are thousands who participate in the Olympics

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » March 11, 2005, 12:27 pm

But it mnakes you wonder, how many don't get caught.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2005, 12:33 pm

Lynks wrote:But it mnakes you wonder, how many don't get caught.

No doubt. I thinks that is mainly because the testing seems to be a step or two behind the masking technology of performance enhancing drugs. That needs to be worked on as well.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » March 11, 2005, 1:04 pm

Truant wrote:
Anyways, in Texas, high school football is more important than church. These kids will do whatever it takes to be the best, and they have the money to get their hands on this stuff.

That reminds me, I still need to see Friday Night Lights.

No doubt. I thinks that is mainly because the testing seems to be a step or two behind the masking technology of performance enhancing drugs. That needs to be worked on as well.

That's 100% correct. One of the things the Olympics does is keep your urine and blood on file so if any time down the road they learn to detect it, the athelete gets stripped. Problem is, what can they do to a pro, college, or prep player after the monetary benefits from steroid use has past? Pretty fucked up situation as the more involved the test becomes, the more expensive it gets.