What will the liberals do now?

[Pubin]

Serious question here veeshan vault. In the aftermath of liberals failing to tarnish the reputation and image of GWB to the point of un-electability, what will they do? Moveon.org? Where will they "move on" to now?

I would like to extend an open invitation for every bleeding vagina liberal to move where you will be loved and welcomed. You will be honored like true war deserters. That's right! Go to canada! Home of socialism, denial, and all the free weed your lazy no job having asses can choke down.

Now, scamper along to a better life. One where you won't have to be tyrannized by evil EVIL Republican administrations. Remember, you will always have internet message boards to make yourselves heard...just look how far it took Howard Dean.

HUAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

[Badabidi]

I support this statement.

[Markulas]

I bet you have an innie for a penis. I guess you can keep making arrogant stereotypes as long as one day your balls finally drop.

[Kguku]

Serious question here veeshan vault. In the aftermath of liberals failing to tarnish the reputation and image of GWB to the point of un-electability, what will they do? Moveon.org? Where will they "move on" to now?

I would like to extend an open invitation for every bleeding vagina liberal to move where you will be loved and welcomed. You will be honored like true war deserters. That's right! Go to canada! Home of socialism, denial, and all the free weed your lazy no job having asses can choke down.

Now, scamper along to a better life. One where you won't have to be tyrannized by evil EVIL Republican administrations. Remember, you will always have internet message boards to make yourselves heard...just look how far it took Howard Dean.

HUAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

Listen, it's bad enough we are selling you Americans our Flu Vaccines, I'll be damned if you bastards try and score free weed from us before we get any!

[murr]

Serious question here veeshan vault. In the aftermath of liberals failing to tarnish the reputation and image of GWB to the point of un-electability, what will they do? Moveon.org? Where will they "move on" to now?

I would like to extend an open invitation for every bleeding vagina liberal to move where you will be loved and welcomed. You will be honored like true war deserters. That's right! Go to canada! Home of socialism, denial, and all the free weed your lazy no job having asses can choke down.

Now, scamper along to a better life. One where you won't have to be tyrannized by evil EVIL Republican administrations. Remember, you will always have internet message boards to make yourselves heard...just look how far it took Howard Dean.

HUAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

If only I had to power to sterilize someone with a thought... =/

[Sirton]

[Rivera Bladestrike]

Serious question here veeshan vault. In the aftermath of liberals failing to tarnish the reputation and image of GWB to the point of un-electability, what will they do? Moveon.org? Where will they "move on" to now?

I would like to extend an open invitation for every bleeding vagina liberal to move where you will be loved and welcomed. You will be honored like true war deserters. That's right! Go to canada! Home of socialism, denial, and all the free weed your lazy no job having asses can choke down.

Now, scamper along to a better life. One where you won't have to be tyrannized by evil EVIL Republican administrations. Remember, you will always have internet message boards to make yourselves heard...just look how far it took Howard Dean.

HUAAAAHHHHHH!!!!

If only I had to power to sterilize someone with a thought... =/

Yeah, all that fucking of his sister will create more retarded inbred trash, and you still lose cause that inbred trash will vote republican.

[Pubin]

so far, murr has had the only relatively amusing response.


Innie penis and incest? What is this the aol teen chat boards? Awesome "come backs". It is nice to see this site is still crawling with pasty liberal computer nerds however. Long live VV!

[Burke]

So that makes you a pasty republican computer nerd?

[Zaelath]

No, just another worthless fucking troll.

[Forthe]

I wish republicans would get over this. I'm sorry we won't let your trailer trash ass move here.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Gloating is fun for some. Have at it Pubin. It's been a rough campaign year, I understand.

The Dems won't change anyway. They will just up their efforts in the media and in policies and in schools to change the way people think so they win next time. To them it's not about what the people want, it's about making the people want what they want.

[Sylvos]

I like what Kerry said during his concession speech "There are no losers when we have an election, cause the day after we all wake up as Americans". I can understand being upset that your canidate wasn't elected. I can also understand having a political philosophy that is different than the man elected or his political party. However, now that it is done, instead of beating your chest like you have been done some great injustice why not try to do something positive like write your president/congressman and try to get your issues heard instead of honestly acting like a god damn child. Had Kerry been elected and most of the house/senate majority been elected democrat. I would have said "ok..well lets see how this goes" not "FUCKING KERRY THAT BASTARD IS GOIGN TO FUCK UP MY COUNTRY". I hate to say it but I have this small inkling, call me crazy, but I think those in power have a better understanding of the way things work in goverment than we do. Not because we are dumb, or uneducated but because they are there, they are working there and they are the ones that dictate policy. Im sure this isn't the easiest job in the world but ranting about it only does one thing, entice flaming.

[Animalor]

To them it's not about what the people want, it's about making the people want what they want.

I'm thinking the republicans are exactly the same as the dems except the beliefs they're trying to push are different.

Gay Rights anyone?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

To them it's not about what the people want, it's about making the people want what they want.

I'm thinking the republicans are exactly the same as the dems except the beliefs they're trying to push are different.

Gay Rights anyone?

Wake up holmes. The people are speaking out in large numbers. They don't want gay marriage. You say Gay rights to keep it generalized and obscure what is at hand. The question at hand is gay marriage, not gay rights. People are not for normalizing this genetic fuckup. They want to keep it seperate.

Open the door and step into the real world.

[Sylvos]

actually Animalor there are several different political beliefs that make the two parties differ greatly.

One wants bigger goverment, one wants smaller goverment.
Other belives in martial stockpiling and large defense budget, the other believes in smaller military and better foreign alliances.
One believes in fiscal conservativness while the other believes in big spending.
One wants more state governing rights while the other wants more federal overseeing of rights.

Things like abortion, gay rights, religious indoctrinization are not bound to a political party - this is a common misconception of our political party system. Those fall under the beliefs of conservative and liberal doctrine. Because you can be a Liberal Republican or a Conservative Democrat.

That is the krux of today's political party system, there are so many variants of the two parties that stereotypes surface to describe them.

For Example: I will use myself to describe that issue.
Name: John
Sex: Male
Birthdate: 12/10/1976
Race: White
Religious Affiliation: Catholic
Sexual Preferance: Heterosexual (ha ha fuck off in advance)
Place of Birth: Gadsten, Alabama
Financial Upbringing: Upper Middle Class/Lower Upper Class.
Gay Marriage: Supports
Death Penalty: Supports
NRA member: Yes
Abortion Stance: Pro-choice (barely)
Foreign Policy Stance: Isolationsist
Creationsism/Evolutionism: Evolutionism.
Prayer in Schools: No
100% for seperation of church and state: Yes

How would you classify this person?
Well he's a white southerner , but hes also catholic, he's not queer hrm..but he's also from a family that has money..he's in his late 20's.
Is he a Republican? or is he a Democrat?
Most people would say Im a Republican just based on the core data you have before you.
But he's for abortion and he wants gays to get married. He's isolationist in foreign policy hrm...but he wants 100% seperation of church and state.
Wait he's also an NRA member....that means he's got guns. But he doens't want Creationsism taught in schools...hrm...
Answer:
Southern Republican Conservative.
But how can you be conservative but support abortion and gay marriage?
Being conservative does not mean I support christian ethics in my political and law making/following decisions. It means I view things from a stand point of pragmatism. I am not a moderate because I do not seek the middle ground and im not liberal because I am pro-choice to an extent.
You see how difficult it is to lable someone using stereotypes? There are so many contradictions if you adhear stereotypes to political labels.
Just food for thought.
Don't get indigestion.

[Lynks]

Open the door and step into the real world.

After you. YOu are so blind that you don't even notice that you are for taking rights away. How feeble minded of you.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Open the door and step into the real world.

After you. YOu are so blind that you don't even notice that you are for taking rights away. How feeble minded of you.

LOL.

They never had the right for it to be taken away. Really man, what the fuck world do you live in. I never believed in alternate realities until I came to this board. Unreal.

[Lynks]

Let me rephrase then, you are for denying basic rights to others that aren't like you. Did you understand that? Did you read it carefully, maybe you should ask someone next to you to read it back just to make sure.

[Animalor]

To them it's not about what the people want, it's about making the people want what they want.

I'm thinking the republicans are exactly the same as the dems except the beliefs they're trying to push are different.

Gay Rights anyone?

Wake up holmes. The people are speaking out in large numbers. They don't want gay marriage. You say Gay rights to keep it generalized and obscure what is at hand. The question at hand is gay marriage, not gay rights. People are not for normalizing this genetic fuckup. They want to keep it seperate.

Open the door and step into the real world.

If you look at the election results. 51% want what bush offers, and 49% want what the democrats offer.

I think it's plain and simple to see that speaking for "most people" won't work in this situation.

[Animalor]

actually Animalor there are several different political beliefs that make the two parties differ greatly.

One wants bigger goverment, one wants smaller goverment.
Other belives in martial stockpiling and large defense budget, the other believes in smaller military and better foreign alliances.
One believes in fiscal conservativness while the other believes in big spending.
One wants more state governing rights while the other wants more federal overseeing of rights.

Things like abortion, gay rights, religious indoctrinization are not bound to a political party - this is a common misconception of our political party system. Those fall under the beliefs of conservative and liberal doctrine. Because you can be a Liberal Republican or a Conservative Democrat.

That is the krux of today's political party system, there are so many variants of the two parties that stereotypes surface to describe them.

For Example: I will use myself to describe that issue.
Name: John
Sex: Male
Birthdate: 12/10/1976
Race: White
Religious Affiliation: Catholic
Sexual Preferance: Heterosexual (ha ha fuck off in advance)
Place of Birth: Gadsten, Alabama
Financial Upbringing: Upper Middle Class/Lower Upper Class.
Gay Marriage: Supports
Death Penalty: Supports
NRA member: Yes
Abortion Stance: Pro-choice (barely)
Foreign Policy Stance: Isolationsist
Creationsism/Evolutionism: Evolutionism.
Prayer in Schools: No
100% for seperation of church and state: Yes

How would you classify this person?
Well he's a white southerner , but hes also catholic, he's not queer hrm..but he's also from a family that has money..he's in his late 20's.
Is he a Republican? or is he a Democrat?
Most people would say Im a Republican just based on the core data you have before you.
But he's for abortion and he wants gays to get married. He's isolationist in foreign policy hrm...but he wants 100% seperation of church and state.
Wait he's also an NRA member....that means he's got guns. But he doens't want Creationsism taught in schools...hrm...
Answer:
Southern Republican Conservative.
But how can you be conservative but support abortion and gay marriage?
Being conservative does not mean I support christian ethics in my political and law making/following decisions. It means I view things from a stand point of pragmatism. I am not a moderate because I do not seek the middle ground and im not liberal because I am pro-choice to an extent.
You see how difficult it is to lable someone using stereotypes? There are so many contradictions if you adhear stereotypes to political labels.
Just food for thought.
Don't get indigestion.

Actualy thanks for that post. Puts things in a bit better of a perspective.

On a side note, those views are protty much identical to mine other than the firearms issue. I don't hate guns. My father, when he was alive, had a passion for hunting. I didn't share that passion however his guns were always something that I enjoyed looking at and manipulating. I had the option of getting one of those guns but sadly passed because the laws up here make owning a weapon more aggrivating and costly that it's worth.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Let me rephrase then, you are for denying basic rights to others that aren't like you. Did you understand that? Did you read it carefully, maybe you should ask someone next to you to read it back just to make sure.

It's you who refuses to get the fact that a man marrying a man isn't a basic right. It's an unfortunate birth defect and shouldn't be normalized. Why can't you be happy with a civil union? Why is it never enough for you?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

To them it's not about what the people want, it's about making the people want what they want.

I'm thinking the republicans are exactly the same as the dems except the beliefs they're trying to push are different.

Gay Rights anyone?

Wake up holmes. The people are speaking out in large numbers. They don't want gay marriage. You say Gay rights to keep it generalized and obscure what is at hand. The question at hand is gay marriage, not gay rights. People are not for normalizing this genetic fuckup. They want to keep it seperate.

Open the door and step into the real world.

If you look at the election results. 51% want what bush offers, and 49% want what the democrats offer.

I think it's plain and simple to see that speaking for "most people" won't work in this situation.

/sigh

Look at the results from the 11 states initiatives who voted on gay marriage.

[Lynks]

Let me rephrase then, you are for denying basic rights to others that aren't like you. Did you understand that? Did you read it carefully, maybe you should ask someone next to you to read it back just to make sure.

It's you who refuses to get the fact that a man marrying a man isn't a basic right. It's an unfortunate birth defect and shouldn't be normalized. Why can't you be happy with a civil union? Why is it never enough for you?

Why can't you be happy with calling it a marriage. Why isn't it enough for you. Hell A Reese's pieces is a marriage of peanut butter and chocolate, do you want to change that to a civial union?

Go get your head checked asshole.

[Animalor]

Let me rephrase then, you are for denying basic rights to others that aren't like you. Did you understand that? Did you read it carefully, maybe you should ask someone next to you to read it back just to make sure.

It's you who refuses to get the fact that a man marrying a man isn't a basic right. It's an unfortunate birth defect and shouldn't be normalized. Why can't you be happy with a civil union? Why is it never enough for you?

I may be wrong here and I woulod appreciate people calling me out on it if I am but didn't a few states have laws being voted on that prohibited even civil unions on their territory?

I know that Bush said in interview a few days before the election that he didn't mind gay civil union and it would be up to the individual states to decide this.

[Akaran_D]

You're the reason there are people like Dar and Jice that bash republicans and Christianity at every turn Mid, HOW can you NOT see this?

A guy wants to blow another guy - FINE. If your religion says its wrong, DONT DO IT. I'm betting they don't follow along with your proclimation that they're comitting acts of evil. If you don't like it, DONT practice it.

Calling them genetic anomalies or that they're suffering from a birth defect is a LARGE part of the problem we're facing in this country today. YOu don't like it, suck it up, move on. IT DOES NOT EFFECT YOU.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

A guy wants to blow another guy - FINE. If your religion says its wrong, DONT DO IT. I'm betting they don't follow along with your proclimation that they're comitting acts of evil. If you don't like it, DONT practice it.

I have no problems here. Never said I did. This is not the question at hand. Stop clouding the issue.

Calling them genetic anomalies or that they're suffering from a birth defect is a LARGE part of the problem we're facing in this country today. YOu don't like it, suck it up, move on. IT DOES NOT EFFECT YOU

How is what I am saying wrong? Do you have proof it is not a genetic fuckup? Is there not many studies going on supporting this common sense theory? Why is it the truth hurts people so much? Your hate for truth is frightening.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

Let me rephrase then, you are for denying basic rights to others that aren't like you. Did you understand that? Did you read it carefully, maybe you should ask someone next to you to read it back just to make sure.

It's you who refuses to get the fact that a man marrying a man isn't a basic right. It's an unfortunate birth defect and shouldn't be normalized. Why can't you be happy with a civil union? Why is it never enough for you?

It's never enough for him because he has human reason.

As for your comments: You are the one that can't have it both ways here Mid. You cannot say that it is a "birth defect that shoudln't be normalized" and yet be indirectly in support of civil unions.

I find the first part of that personally offensive as well - I have known you to be pretty liberal in the past on this issue and I am very curious as to why your position has changed. Do you honestly think I was born with a birth defect? If so, you disgust me.

As for the whole gay marriage thing. Believe it or not, I partly agree with Mid. I don't think gay marriage should be legal - although let me make it VERY clear that I think civil unions should be granted with EVERY SINGLE EXACT right that marriages get. However I, being a gay man, do not believe it is prudent to legalize gay marriage because I don't think gay people should normalize themselves so much that we seek things that really are not of that much importance to us. By all means - we should fight for our rights every chance we get and seek those out...but seeking out marriage is not only a waste of time but a way of normalizing something that ought NOT to be normalized.

[Lynks]

And your hate for logic and being rational is too.

Edit: Not Fes.

[Akaran_D]

It's called hatemongering.
Because someone is different does not mean they do not deserve the same rights as you. But here's another flash - marrage is not a right. There is no clause in the constitution that says two people can get married.

We have a right to safety and to be happy. Telling someone that they cannot be 'married' because of which way their wanker waves makes no sense. They want to live together? Great, fine, go for it. They want to adopt a baby? Great, go for it. They want to be productive citizens of the world? Again, perfectly ok with it. They want to get the same tax breaks as hetrosexual couples do? Again, all for it. They deserve it.

Here's a better question for you. Is having your skin a different color a genetic fuckup? No, it was an adaptation that the human body grew into in response to areas with higher UV counts and other enviornmental issues. Is homosexuality another step in human evolution? Entirely possible that in a way, its natures way of slowing down population growth. I don't know. YOU don't know. You can't say for a fact either way.

And you wonder why people call you a bigot.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I find the first part of that personally offensive as well - I have known you to be pretty liberal in the past on this issue and I am very curious as to why your position has changed. Do you honestly think I was born with a birth defect? If so, you disgust me.

It hasn't changed. I support civil unions. I do not support gay marriage.

As far as a birth defect....yes, I do think it will be scientifically proven for certain one day that your sexuality is determined in the womb. I do not believe people choose to be gay. You are born to either find women or men attractive.

[Nick]

Wow, and I am accused of blind hatred.

[Sylvos]

I am greatly saddened that 11 states voted against gay marriage.
It is unconstitutional to amend the constitution to prevent homosexuals from entering a legal civil union. Regardless if i believed homsexuality was wrong and regardless if i believed it was against the doctrine of the catholic church. It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The American Constitution grants you the Freedom of CHOICE, the Freedom of SPEECH and the Pursuit of Happiness. You CAN NOT legislate morality. By disallowing gay marriage you are in fact violating the civil rights that are guaranteed to each American citizen. By denying these "GOD GIVEN RIGHTS" that we are granted by our blessed constitution that our forefathers fought so hard for, we are then merging church and state instead of seperating.
How would you feel if you couldn't join the person you loved in the emergency room because you were recognized as their "legal married partner". This isn't about religious belief, you can believe all gays go to hell all you want, bottom line - they are taxpayers just like you are and are guaranteed the same rights you are under the eyes of the law.
Do you know whats going to happen? More than likely they will make homosexuals a minority and then they will be able to engineer the proper legislature to grant them their proper rights. why? because of closed minded indiviuals who can not seperate the word of God and the word of the law. God does NOT = law. Law does NOT = God. Law = just and fair for everyone, the ability to create an intelligent society with rules to govern and prevent anarchy. God = religion the PERSONAL belief system that CAN be shared with others, but base roots = PERSONAL.

[murr]

I'm just continually amused by the contrast of Midnyte's avatar and what he actually posts.
Corddry last night: "That's right Jon, tonight may be your last night to have gay sex or go to a library. Or take out two birds with one stone."

[Fesuni Chopsui]

I find the first part of that personally offensive as well - I have known you to be pretty liberal in the past on this issue and I am very curious as to why your position has changed. Do you honestly think I was born with a birth defect? If so, you disgust me.

It hasn't changed. I support civil unions. I do not support gay marriage.

As far as a birth defect....yes, I do think it will be scientifically proven for certain one day that your sexuality is determined in the womb. I do not believe people choose to be gay. You are born to either find women or men attractive.

Believing that you are born with it (with clearly ambiguous connotations in your language) and do not choose to be so is different from saying it is a birth defect....pick one and stick with it

[murr]

I am greatly saddened that 11 states voted against gay marriage.
It is unconstitutional to amend the constitution to prevent homosexuals from entering a legal civil union. Regardless if i believed homsexuality was wrong and regardless if i believed it was against the doctrine of the catholic church. It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The American Constitution grants you the Freedom of CHOICE, the Freedom of SPEECH and the Pursuit of Happiness. You CAN NOT legislate morality. By disallowing gay marriage you are in fact violating the civil rights that are guaranteed to each American citizen. By denying these "GOD GIVEN RIGHTS" that we are granted by our blessed constitution that our forefathers fought so hard for, we are then merging church and state instead of seperating.
How would you feel if you couldn't join the person you loved in the emergency room because you were recognized as their "legal married partner". This isn't about religious belief, you can believe all gays go to hell all you want, bottom line - they are taxpayers just like you are and are guaranteed the same rights you are under the eyes of the law.
Do you know whats going to happen? More than likely they will make homosexuals a minority and then they will be able to engineer the proper legislature to grant them their proper rights. why? because of closed minded indiviuals who can not seperate the word of God and the word of the law. God does NOT = law. Law does NOT = God. Law = just and fair for everyone, the ability to create an intelligent society with rules to govern and prevent anarchy. God = religion the PERSONAL belief system that CAN be shared with others, but base roots = PERSONAL.

Yep. I'm pretty disgusted that even Oregon passed it. The worst part being that about half (?) of the states' proposed amendments actually included language precluding even civil unions or any sort of union granting gay couples similar rights to those of married people. Though according to a few friends of mine in Atlanta the language on the ballot was not properly indicative of what people were voting for - perhaps there will be some well-deserved litigation.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I find the first part of that personally offensive as well - I have known you to be pretty liberal in the past on this issue and I am very curious as to why your position has changed. Do you honestly think I was born with a birth defect? If so, you disgust me.

It hasn't changed. I support civil unions. I do not support gay marriage.

As far as a birth defect....yes, I do think it will be scientifically proven for certain one day that your sexuality is determined in the womb. I do not believe people choose to be gay. You are born to either find women or men attractive.

Believing that you are born with it (with clearly ambiguous connotations in your language) and do not choose to be so is different from saying it is a birth defect....pick one and stick with it

I have always said it is defective because it differes from what is normal.

I explained this before and was ridiculed for it's simplicity. But, on these boards there is no other way to get you to understand. Men have a dick, women have a vagina. Together a man and a woman can reproduce. It is a very basic concept of continuing life. A man and a man can fuck non stop and cum into every hole on eachothers bodies and they will not reproduce. It is abnormal. Therefore a genetic defect. It is true. I understand many people can't face that reality. And they want to think on these grand delusionary scales, but that doesn't change the simple common sense realities.

[masteen]

Hold up just a fucking second. They have free weed in Canada?

[Voronwë]

Hold up just a fucking second. They have free weed in Canada?

to the Bat Cave!

[Fesuni Chopsui]

I find the first part of that personally offensive as well - I have known you to be pretty liberal in the past on this issue and I am very curious as to why your position has changed. Do you honestly think I was born with a birth defect? If so, you disgust me.

It hasn't changed. I support civil unions. I do not support gay marriage.

As far as a birth defect....yes, I do think it will be scientifically proven for certain one day that your sexuality is determined in the womb. I do not believe people choose to be gay. You are born to either find women or men attractive.

Believing that you are born with it (with clearly ambiguous connotations in your language) and do not choose to be so is different from saying it is a birth defect....pick one and stick with it

I have always said it is defective because it differes from what is normal.

I explained this before and was ridiculed for it's simplicity. But, on these boards there is no other way to get you to understand. Men have a dick, women have a vagina. Together a man and a woman can reproduce. It is a very basic concept of continuing life. A man and a man can fuck non stop and cum into every hole on eachothers bodies and they will not reproduce. It is abnormal. Therefore a genetic defect. It is true. I understand many people can't face that reality. And they want to think on these grand delusionary scales, but that doesn't change the simple common sense realities.

Although I can't provide you with any link at this time...if what you are saying is true, then be default it is not a genetic defect but a recessive gene that occurs naturally and normally. How do I conclude this? Because in nature there are hundreds of species of animals where there is an occurance of homosexual behavior/partnering lifestyle...including humans

And based on your argument - infertile people should be considered second class citizens, like gays

[Sylvus]

It's you who refuses to get the fact that a man marrying a man isn't a basic right. It's an unfortunate birth defect and shouldn't be normalized. Why can't you be happy with a civil union? Why is it never enough for you?

Why do you keep arguing semantics? I can legally change my name to Jesus H. Christ and it doesn't mean I can walk on water. Unfortunately those 11 states that you mention did vote on something that limits rights and falls into your slippery slope of semantics arguments. If you're not bigoted at all, why do you refer to homosexuality as a birth defect? Do you refer to having red hair or blue eyes as a birth defect? If not (and you know you don't), you might be a bigot.

Amend the state constitution to provide that "the union of one man and one woman in marriage shall be the only agreement recognized as a marriage or similar union for any purpose."

Sounds like some pretty basic rights being denied to a relatively sizeable population of people.

The Dems won't change anyway. They will just up their efforts in the media and in policies and in schools to change the way people think so they win next time. To them it's not about what the people want, it's about making the people want what they want.

You're not right there either. As far as these issues go, and I'm not a Democrat, people are trying to preserve the rights of others. Think about that for a minute. Moving beyond the scope of gay marriage, do you want more personal freedom to do what you want when it has no impact on other people? I can't think of a right that you are being denied, but even though we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, I would still fight for you to have whatever it is, provided it didn't hurt anyone else.

To paraphrase and interesting notion touched on by the Daily Show last night, why is it that almost every one of the red states that showed up to vote because they were scared of the terrorists or the homosexual agenda are at the bottom of the list as far as terrorist attacks go, and have a far smaller gay population than most of the blue states? Why are those people forcing their agenda on the rest of the country who actually have to face those "problems" and have made it pretty clear that they aren't as scared. I think that a lot of you have been hoodwinked.

[Nick]

MORE LOGIC MONGERING FROM TEH SYLVUS LETS BAN HIM!

[*~*stragi*~*]

I don't really think Midnyte is intending to be biggoted when he calls homosexuality a birth defect. He's saying that he believes in the future, that homosexuality will be proved scientifcally to be predetermined in the womb... If you're finding that offensive, I think you need to lighten up o.O

[Fesuni Chopsui]

I don't really think Midnyte is intending to be biggoted when he calls homosexuality a birth defect. He's saying that he believes in the future, that homosexuality will be proved scientifcally to be predetermined in the womb... If you're finding that offensive, I think you need to lighten up o.O

It is different to say "being born black is a birth defect" than it is "being born black is genetic"....had he said "being born gay is genetic" and not "being born gay is a birth defect", then yes I'd agree he wasn't being offensive/a bigot...but unfortunately, this is not the case here

[noel]

I really respect not only the words you're posting Sylvos, but also the perspective you approach legislation from.

I'm also quite impressed with Akaran in this thread.

Edit: for clarification, it's not that the conclusions you two have reached are the same as mine, but it's the reasoning that led you to those conclusions. I wish more conservatives would approach issues in general with a more empathetic, open-mind.

[Sueven]

There's lots of things that are predetermined in the womb that we don't call "birth defects." Your hair color is determined in the womb, but we don't say that blondes and redheads have birth defects. Intelligence is determined in the womb, but we don't say that people of below average intelligence have birth defects. The same holds true for a host of properties ranging from skin color to hair color to eye color to personality type to addictive potential.

When we consider the range of characteristics that are predetermined in the womb, and we pay attention to which of these characteristics are referred to as birth defects and which are not, it becomes clear that the term "birth defect" carries a negative connotation. This is why it is sensible for a gay person to take offense to being characterized in such a way. Further, it is sensible to expect a gay person, as someone who has been forced to deal with discrimination in all walks of life to an extent which most of us can never understand, to be likely to take offense to such a statement.

If I went up to a black person in 1965 and said "I think you're a person like anyone else, but you dark-skinned freaks still creep me out," I could logically expect that person to take offense, even though I didn't directly use a racial slur.

That said, I don't agree with Midnyte's description of homosexuality, but even under the Midnyte Sexual Paradigm, it is logical for Fesuni to take offense at his statements.

[Acies]

Midnyte, going under your logic that homosexuality is determined in the womb and therefore is a genetic defect:

You were a woman in the womb. Yes, you were. You were CHANGED into a man by the stimulation of the right genes. All men are genetic defects also?

Midnyte, what if all choice or preferance was in the genetic code for us to see and manipulate? Hell, what if YOU are a genetic defect by way of worshiping god? That is a choice, isn't it? Imagine how scary it would be if a bunch of nutjobs didn't understand your relationship with religion, and were hell bent on finding a genetic way to halt it? Imagine you being called a fucking defect because you loved god? If you even give a quasi-thought into this hypethetical situation, you would feel how wrong it is.

What I want to know is this: Why the hell does it bother you at all? Why is this even an issue in your brain Midnyte? Have you looked at a man and felt he was attractive before, and thusly you are punishing yourself and others who are gay? Are you so in the closet that you are finding Christmas gifts? Or are you homophobic? Do you hate them? Was your little brother raped by a big imposing mean rapist of a gay-man and you now hate them all? Where does this stem from in you?

[Shaerra]

If I went up to a black person in 1965 and said "I think you're a person like anyone else, but you dark-skinned freaks still creep me out," I could logically expect that person to take offense, even though I didn't directly use a racial slur.

Yeah, but only in 1965. 'Cause...like today, that would be considered friendly and stuff.

Anyone who reads this thread can see that the only VALID argument any of you have against Midnyte is that he's not sugar coating his words to make you feel all warm and fuzzy. He chooses to say what he means instead of using some bullshit politically correct Oprah Winfrey filter, and you crybabies go throwing a fit. If he phrased it YOUR way, you would be ok with it, but the fact that he used direct, no-bullshit terms makes him an asshole. Grow some skin, pussies.

[Nick]

Midnyte is a genetic defect!

[Lohrno]

You see how difficult it is to lable someone using stereotypes? There are so many contradictions if you adhear stereotypes to political labels.
Just food for thought.
Don't get indigestion.

Thank you. I doubt people will take that to heart, but it's good for someone to finally come out and show people what these things really mean. Not too many get it.

-=Lohrno