I dont know if its been said ***FF*****

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 31, 2004, 5:24 pm

To all the Soldiers both past and present,for all those families of the men who gave their lives for our freedom.To the French,British,Canadian,Austrailian,and any other country I have missed.

Thank You

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » May 31, 2004, 9:26 pm

/salute.

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » June 1, 2004, 12:26 am

/salute

Siji · Post by **Siji** » June 1, 2004, 11:31 am

Thank yas!

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » June 1, 2004, 1:47 pm

Siji wrote:Thank yas!

Seconded

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » June 1, 2004, 5:30 pm

I spent Memorial Day in D.C. this year. First time Ive had the pleasure of doing so. I was fortunate enough to be there for the opening weekend of the WWII Memorial. I tell you what, nothing can better bring home what this day is all about than seeing the large amount of WWII veterans that were present for the day. All of them searching out there own States column. Standing proud with their families. All the photographs and prayers and momentos left throughout the Memorial. It was a powerful event.

After that I made my way toward the Vietnam Memorial and caught about an hour of a ceremony that was being held. And just standing back and watching some vets locate their buddies on the wall.... it was an incredible afternoon.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 1, 2004, 6:06 pm

Thank you.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » June 2, 2004, 1:40 am

Homercles wrote:After that I made my way toward the Vietnam Memorial and caught about an hour of a ceremony that was being held. And just standing back and watching some vets locate their buddies on the wall.... it was an incredible afternoon.

The one time I was old enough to understand and actually got to see the wall was very moving. Aslanna and I were sweating profusely for the 4th of July but a bit of a chill still goes up your spine.

The WWII memorial had kinda just been started I believe (either that one or the Korean War one - don't remember), so I'm very interested in seeing that as well.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » June 2, 2004, 1:51 am

Killers.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » June 2, 2004, 2:58 am

Toshira wrote:Killers.

Seconded

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 2, 2004, 7:42 am

Toshira wrote:Killers.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 2, 2004, 8:48 am

No respect...

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » June 2, 2004, 10:00 am

Toshira wrote:Killers.

Nice. People like you who don't respect those who died to give you a chance at freedom make me ill. You and Fesuni can go and choke each other to death and make the world a better place.

Just as a side note.....Hitler would have had your freak ass killed with the Jews if a lot of soldiers from the U.S., Canada, England, etc had not died to keep assbags like you safe.

edit: sorry for the flame on your FF thread Cart

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » June 2, 2004, 12:25 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Toshira wrote:Killers.
Nice. People like you who don't respect those who died to give you a chance at freedom make me ill. You and Fesuni can go and choke each other to death and make the world a better place.

Just as a side note.....Hitler would have had your freak ass killed with the Jews if a lot of soldiers from the U.S., Canada, England, etc had not died to keep assbags like you safe.

edit: sorry for the flame on your FF thread Cart

I don't see Tosh or I saying anything about not having respect for those who have died...what I do see is Tosh and I expressing our disgust with the military practices and agenda this country has allowed to go on under quite possibly the worst president in the history of the US...

I have all the respect in the world for those who have died and who are there now ruining, I mean defending, the integrity of this country...but frankly, they have all been sent as a murdering squad out to terrorize the middle east in the name of Holy War started by a man out for revenge...omg does that sound familiar?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 2, 2004, 12:35 pm

Fesuni Chopsui wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Toshira wrote:Killers.
Nice. People like you who don't respect those who died to give you a chance at freedom make me ill. You and Fesuni can go and choke each other to death and make the world a better place.

Just as a side note.....Hitler would have had your freak ass killed with the Jews if a lot of soldiers from the U.S., Canada, England, etc had not died to keep assbags like you safe.

edit: sorry for the flame on your FF thread Cart
I don't see Tosh or I saying anything about not having respect for those who have died...what I do see is Tosh and I expressing our disgust with the military practices and agenda this country has allowed to go on under quite possibly the worst president in the history of the US...

I have all the respect in the world for those who have died and who are there now ruining, I mean defending, the integrity of this country...but frankly, they have all been sent as a murdering squad out to terrorize the middle east in the name of Holy War started by a man out for revenge...omg does that sound familiar?

And that is fine Fesuni if you want to express yours and Tosh's opinion, but please do it in another thread, this one is clearly marked FF.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » June 2, 2004, 12:37 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Fesuni Chopsui wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Toshira wrote:Killers.
Nice. People like you who don't respect those who died to give you a chance at freedom make me ill. You and Fesuni can go and choke each other to death and make the world a better place.

Just as a side note.....Hitler would have had your freak ass killed with the Jews if a lot of soldiers from the U.S., Canada, England, etc had not died to keep assbags like you safe.

edit: sorry for the flame on your FF thread Cart

I don't see Tosh or I saying anything about not having respect for those who have died...what I do see is Tosh and I expressing our disgust with the military practices and agenda this country has allowed to go on under quite possibly the worst president in the history of the US...

I have all the respect in the world for those who have died and who are there now ruining, I mean defending, the integrity of this country...but frankly, they have all been sent as a murdering squad out to terrorize the middle east in the name of Holy War started by a man out for revenge...omg does that sound familiar?

And that is fine Fesuni if you want to express yours and Tosh's opinion but please do it in another thread, this one is clearly marked FF.

We aren't flaming anyone, at least I didn't mean it as a flame...but in respect of your *FF* sign and that you think it was, I won't post anything more about it here

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 2, 2004, 12:37 pm

You Da'Man

noel · Post by **noel** » June 2, 2004, 1:24 pm

The negative posts on this thread were completely classless. If you want to make your point, do it in an appropriate place. This isn't.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 2, 2004, 1:31 pm

Thanks to the human beings that posted on this, people should never malign memorial day as it represents the sacrifices of every soldier to ever call himself an American, and if you cannot put temporal politics down for 5 minutes to express that thought or at least remain silent then I am disgusted by you.

Freedom only has its full meaning to those who have fought for it.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » June 2, 2004, 7:34 pm

Fes, do not presume to speak for me.

They are killers. That statement alone does not carry any moral judgement with it. It is fact. It is what they were trained to do, and in many instances, did.

To all of you who would wave your finger at me in a shaming gesture, acting as if this is some holy ground that musn't be trodden upon - I spit on you.

You think this thread is a sign of respect? An anonomyous nobody posts a blanket "thank you" to whatever nameless masses may be reading, so you all fall in line, pick up fife and drum, shed a tear and salute?

Fuck you.

Should I respect the "vetrans" at Abu Ghraib who proved Milgram's theories on the effects of authority all too readily?

Should I respect William Calley?

Should I respect George "AWOL/Deserter" Bush?

I've got news for you. There isn't a U.S. soldier alive who fought for "our freedom", so get your fake flag out of my face with that shit. There are thousands however, that fought for "our political and economic interests" and some who fought for the freedom of others.

I despise that the nation is in an economic condition that forces some men and women to prostiture their bodies, and perhaps their values, in order to be more efficient killers for our government. I despise more, the choice that many willingly take to serve if they have other financial options to enlist in an army who's purpose for the last fifty years has had nothing to do with safeguarding our freedom. This includes my childhood friend, the Navy Seal.

Hitler would have had me killed? I dunno, I'm pretty Aryan looking, but regardless, since we're speculating, perhaps you'd care to comment on this link which reveals a EU report comparing one of the U.S.' allies prisons in Afghanistan to Auschwitz? Geez, what will reactionaries with trophey wives do once they can't pull out the "Hitler was the supreme bad guy - QED we aren't that bad QED we're good!" card.

"Freedom only has its full meaning to those who have fought for it." - perhaps, but not all fighters use guns.

When you grow up a bit, and learn to see the world as more complex than binary black and white, maybe you'll be able to shake hands with your veteran neighbor, friend, sister, whomever and say "I don't necessarily agree with what you were doing there, but I'm glad you're home".

Perhaps then we can dispense with the holy blanket threads - the Xamichees.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 2, 2004, 8:01 pm

Mods Can you please lock this thread It is going to get nasty and was not intended for that.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 2, 2004, 8:18 pm

Toshira, I see your point, and understand it implicitly. I also agree with a lot of what you said, but as I said before, this thread is not the place.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 2, 2004, 8:26 pm

Not going to flame but I do have a question... why do you need a specific day to honor them? To me, it ends up being just like Valentine's Day.. false and fake and staged.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 2, 2004, 8:30 pm

I think it's kind of like the Fourth of July.

There are similar holidays in many countries. Russia has a similar day, as does Great Britain, etc.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » June 2, 2004, 8:42 pm

Memorial Day isn't just for fallen soldiers, it's to remember and honor all dead.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 2, 2004, 8:52 pm

I know what it is and that other countries have it as well.. I just don't see the point. It all seems so staged and false to me. If I am to honor my grandfather (who was one of the best people to ever grace this planet with his presence) I would most likely do it on any other day.

As I said, it might be just me..

noel · Post by **noel** » June 2, 2004, 9:01 pm

Kelshara wrote:I know what it is and that other countries have it as well.. I just don't see the point. It all seems so staged and false to me. If I am to honor my grandfather (who was one of the best people to ever grace this planet with his presence) I would most likely do it on any other day.

As I said, it might be just me..

I think it's mostly semantical. Dedicating a day isn't to say you shouldn't honor/respect/appreciate them all the time, more to say, their contributions to our country were so great as to merit a single day off specifically for them.

Kind of like fourth of July, Martin Luther King Jr. Day, etc.

Your point is extremely, but remember the vast majority of Americans are mindless automatons that are unable to function without being told what to do from someone in authority. Perhaps you've seen some posters that fit this criteria in the Current Events forum...

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » June 3, 2004, 6:55 am

Its there to take time off specificly to remember and honor there lives not there deaths. Its no diffrent than taking a moment of silence to honor someones life its just on a larger scale for a larger amount of people.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » June 3, 2004, 7:19 am

I didn't have a clue it was some kind of memorial day I assumed it was something to do with it being the 60th anniversary of D-Day this Sunday.

Either way it wouldn't have killed the self-absorbed few to keep quiet and let those who wanted to show respect to have their thread.

Nilaman · Post by **Nilaman** » June 3, 2004, 9:30 am

Mmmmm

The Brittish are comming?

Hey Homercles, did you get to watch the vet motorcycle parade there too? I go to DC almost every year to support the vets but I missed it this year. I bet it must have been somethin' to see all those WWII vets, since they had just opened that new memorial.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » June 3, 2004, 10:37 am

I didnt see the motorcycle parade. I mustve arrived after that. But I did walk by Thunder Alley, and the number of cycles parked in the area was astonishing

Post by **Sylvus** » June 3, 2004, 12:20 pm

Cartalas wrote:Mods Can you please lock this thread It is going to get nasty and was not intended for that.

The exact same thing happened last year. I ended up splitting the threads and everyone screamed bloody murder that the iron fisted mods were oppressing them. So this year they'll probably just stay as they are.

I agree with the sentiment put forth in posting this thread. As the day was created for, someone took time out of their day to remember the sacrifices people have made for this country. Wholesale contempt for the sacrifices of those "killers" is pretty disrespectful in my opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly that some pretty reprehensible actions have been committed by a slight minority of the men and women that have served in the military of our country and those of our allies, but to say that those actions overshadow all of the actions of the majority of said military throughout the last couple hundred years is bullshit. People have the right to say those kinds of things though, and those sacrifices that we remember on Memorial Day are more than partially responsible for that right being upheld. Keep in mind that the day was created not to remember the few misguided active servicepeople that tortured prisoners in Iraq, nor to remember the current Commander-in-Chief who by all accounts had a pretty poor (nonexistent?) service record and has made some poor decisions during his brief tenure as President, but to remember all the people that have given their lives in service for this country. Perhaps we'll just have to disagree that those people are indeed worthy of respect.

Toshira wrote:"Freedom only has its full meaning to those who have fought for it." - perhaps, but not all fighters use guns.

Well then, keep on fighting the good fight!

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » June 3, 2004, 2:55 pm

Toshira wrote:Killers.

She's got a point. Its our job and what we do.

Make bad guys die.

Whether your agree with the why/what/when/where, I couldnt care less.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » June 3, 2004, 8:03 pm

Neither of my posts, dear Syl, show wholesale contempt for the sacrifices of "those 'killers'".

The original post, simply "Killers.", was a parallel to the initiating post. It's a tautology - it may have truth, but it's meaningless. It is a blanket statement that carries no worth. It expresses neither contempt, nor favor, unless you choose to align the word killers with a negative meaning. I won't repeat why I don't respect all veterans, read the second post again if you don't understand. With respect to why I posted at all - to lump all veterans together makes the "thank you" worthless.

What is this hiding behind the "FF" banner? Do you think a thread entitled "Thank you KKK members! *** FF ***" would go by unchallanged? Somehow, I don't think so. Call me inappropriate, rude, unpatriotic, immature...whatever. Marking a potentially incendiary thread "flame free" (or that which is holy and must not be tainted by dissent), is akin to fundamentalism - you will not allow dissent.

Perspective check: this is a general topic internet message board formed from a community of former and current players on a selected server of a video game. This is not the local VFW. What you hold to be sacred, holy, untouchable is not necessarily the same blessed bovine that your neighbor does.

The dishonorable actions of a few (although I don't buy the "few bad apples theory when multiple interrogation techniques from around the globe and from different conflicts just happen to appear in Iraq) do not overshadow all the actions of Veterans for the last several hundred years. Of course, I never said they did. I said that they must be considered. I said that being able to acknowledge the bad with the good is necessary in order to see the world in a more comprehensive and complex way.

Syl, regarding the quote and your failed attempt at mockery - it wasn't my qoute, I was expanding on a statement by Kylere. I don't see myself as a fighter. I recognize that others throughout history have fought without guns, and been victorious.

I don't know, Kilmoll. We sat by and watched as nearly 800,000 Rwandans died. No I won't pull the race card, but ask yourself...why the anger for an event that, as horrible as it was, is long gone, when we did virtually nothing about a similar event that happened in our lifetime?

BTW, brainwashing is fiction. There is no Room 101.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 3, 2004, 8:20 pm

Wow, all that and you cou;ldn't even find the thread made for your remarks.
For someone that can type that much, figured you could at least read..

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » June 3, 2004, 8:28 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Wow, all that and you cou;ldn't even find the thread made for your remarks.
For someone that can type that much, figured you could at least read..

Perhaps /gasp, I just didn't feel like following your directions? Don't feel bad. It's not necessary for me to transfer my posts in order to validate your existance. You're loveworthy just for being you! /snuggles!

noel · Post by **noel** » June 3, 2004, 8:29 pm

Toshira wrote:What is this hiding behind the "FF" banner? Do you think a thread entitled "Thank you KKK members! *** FF ***" would go by unchallanged? Somehow, I don't think so. Call me inappropriate, rude, unpatriotic, immature...whatever. Marking a potentially incendiary thread "flame free" (or that which is holy and must not be tainted by dissent), is akin to fundamentalism - you will not allow dissent.

Show a little respect for your fellow posters and get over yourself. Back when this board was actually moderated by TheMachine, you would have had a nice weeklong ban from posting. I realize you'd likely not care about this, but you're fortunate that the board is really no longer moderated at all. That said, the majority of older posters on this board recognize the FF tag, and what it stands for, and they don't take advantage of the lack of moderation under the guise of some higher moral ground just to act like an asshole.

You're not stupid. The word 'killers' lacking any context, as it appeared in your first post, is inflammatory.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 3, 2004, 8:35 pm

As much as I hate to say it.. Tosh has a point. A different kind of FF thread would have become flaming a lot sooner than this one did.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 3, 2004, 8:36 pm

Yeah! A board jerk has recognized me!
I feel so special.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 3, 2004, 8:52 pm

Kelshara wrote:As much as I hate to say it.. Tosh has a point. A different kind of FF thread would have become flaming a lot sooner than this one did.

The original rules for FF included the stipulation that you could not make an inflammatory thread and label it FF. That would also get you banned.

The real problem here is that there's no moderation because whiny bitches throw temper tantrums when there is.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 3, 2004, 8:58 pm

I know the original rule of it.. was talking now. Don't even try to tell me certain topics wouldn't be instant flame bait here in these days even with FF in the subject.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 3, 2004, 9:04 pm

Kelshara wrote:I know the original rule of it.. was talking now. Don't even try to tell me certain topics wouldn't be instant flame bait here in these days even with FF in the subject.

I'm not trying to say there aren't topics which would be instant flame bait. I'm simply stated that if this board were still moderated, and someone started such a topic, they'd be banned.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 3, 2004, 9:14 pm

I would like to moderate the FF threads!

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 3, 2004, 9:39 pm

Okay Since FF is broken on this thread. Considering I was passing out aid packets in Rwanda, maybe YOU sat by Toshira, but I was boot top deep in human waste, dealing with people who were dislocated, starving, desperate and killing each other over 1k calories and trying to make the best of it.

So, when you get all high and mighty and peacenik happy remember that soldiers are peacemakers and bringers of mercy as often as they are destroying the enemy, not to mention that calling soldiers killers is about as accurate as calling prochoice people babykillers, while they both may be rechnically right, they are not the whole story.

There are more killers on the streets of any major urban city in the US, than in the Army. So take your little "I protest war" hippy ass who has done nothing to FIX the things you whine about and STFU, or get off your lazy ass, join the Peace Corps, Americorps, etc. But sitting home at the 'rents house and playing EQ means you have accomplished ZIP in the real world.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 3, 2004, 11:22 pm

Aranuil wrote:Show a little respect for your fellow posters and get over yourself. Back when this board was actually moderated by TheMachine, you would have had a nice weeklong ban from posting. I realize you'd likely not care about this, but you're fortunate that the board is really no longer moderated at all. That said, the majority of older posters on this board recognize the FF tag, and what it stands for, and they don't take advantage of the lack of moderation under the guise of some higher moral ground just to act like an asshole.

You're not stupid. The word 'killers' lacking any context, as it appeared in your first post, is inflammatory.

My history is a little hazy but I think you're mistaken. The original *FF* was started back on the original IGN VV. That board didn't have different forums for us to post in. Why should that matter you ask?

This board, as in the new one, has hardly ever been moderated by The Machine. and *FF* has probably lost its usefulness. At least in the main forum where supposedly 'anything goes'. I agree this would have been more appropriate in the Current Events forum.

Regardless, I didn't have a problem with the *FF* tag being added.

(As I said.. My history is hazy... So I could be wrong. Did we ever have a *FF* thread here? And if so did anyone actually get banned for a week because of it?)

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 3, 2004, 11:27 pm

Toshira wrote: Fuck you.

Right back at you chief.

fucking putz

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » June 3, 2004, 11:32 pm

Toshira wrote:They are killers. That statement alone does not carry any moral judgement with it. It is fact. It is what they were trained to do, and in many instances, did.

To all of you who would wave your finger at me in a shaming gesture, acting as if this is some holy ground that musn't be trodden upon - I spit on you.

Yeah, and I suppose I could go to some thread about gay rights and call them a bunch of cocksuckers and expect to have no opposition thrown my way? Don't be so fucking ignorant.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 4, 2004, 12:01 am

I will Request again please lock this thread!!!! This is not what was intended for my post.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 4, 2004, 12:25 am

*FF* was a direct result of 911 and lamers being disrespectful. It still has a use IMO.

Current Events isn't *FF* so it doesn't matter how many forums we have, if someone sparingly uses a *FF* is should be observed. Drust's post about his sister is a prime example of something that should be marked *FF*.

One solution would be to have a *FF* forum although it would be relatively dead I'd imagine, it could still be used for *FF*. If you disagree with something you could attack the person in another forum.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 4, 2004, 12:45 am

Toshira wrote:Neither of my posts, dear Syl, show wholesale contempt for the sacrifices of "those 'killers'".

Really? Read your second post again. Perhaps wholesale is too strong a word, but the only statement that you make that even implies that you don't completely loathe all of the "killers" (since that's all they are!) is that while you - as others should - disagree (okay, "don't necessarily agree") with any reason that anyone has been fighting abroad, you can bring yourself to be happy that they didn't die. A glowing endorsement, my mistake... you weren't showing any contempt at all. How altruistic of you!

What exactly is incindiary about a thread thanking veterans? Particularly those veterans who died in service to this country. Because that is what the holiday is about, and that's what Cartalas was saying in his first post. His grammar may not be the greatest, but the second part of the line gives it away: soldiers past and present [and their families] who gave their lives for our freedom. Perhaps you just weren't being specific enough, but none of the examples you provided in your second post are even people that the holiday celebrates; none of them died in the service of our country.

For someone who espouses the virtues of our gray-scale, N-ary world, I would think that you would also be able to see that thanking the [good number | large portion | vast majority] of soldiers (take your pick as to how many) who didn't participate in My Lai or Abu Ghraib does not imply that you're turning a blind eye to the bullshit that [a couple | a large cabal | all the rest] of the soldiers (again, your choice) participated in. It is my belief, and the belief of just about everyone else on this thread from what I can tell, that the net sum of what has been accomplished in all the history of our military is at least slightly in favor of the good. Would you jump all over someone for thanking the police for fighting a lot of crime, even though some subset is responsible for Rodney King or Malice Green, or doctors for curing a lot of peoples' illnesses even though there have been some cases of incompetence that have resulted in the loss of lives?

The fact remains that you posted it to be incindiary in the one place that people believed they could take solace from incindiary, meaningless flames. I'd wager that the only reason you even bothered posting in the thread was because of the *FF* tags. Congratulations on being a douchebag in this thread for the sake of being a douchebag. Check out all that hostility, I guess you really are from Hatred, NJ!

VeeshanVault

I dont know if its been said *FF***

I dont know if its been said *FF***