Another example of an activist judge

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Brotha
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Another example of an activist judge

Post by Brotha »

My first time hearing about this. This is a blatant violation of freedom of religion and speech and another example of an activist judge. My question: where is the ACLU?

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=35365

It's back in the news because of this.
A Colorado mother is appealing a child custody decision in which a court barred her from teaching homosexuality is wrong.

Cheryl Clark, who says she is a Christian, has been ordered by Denver County Circuit Judge John W. Coughlin to "make sure that there is nothing in the religious upbringing or teaching that the minor child is exposed to that can be considered homophobic."

The directive arose from the decision to award joint parenting responsibilities for her daughter to a practicing homosexual.

"Forbidding the raising of children in the parent's Christian beliefs is an anathema to parental rights and religious freedom," said Mathew D. Staver, president and general counsel of Florida-based Liberty Counsel. "Must the mother rip out pages of the Bible that say homosexuality is against nature, or must she cover her child's ears if her pastor preaches about sexual purity?"

Staver explained to WorldNetDaily Clark and Elsey McLeod were in a lesbian relationship that broke up after Clark became a Christian and concluded homosexual behavior was wrong.

The Denver court gave McLeod joint custody of Clark's adopted daughter, Emma, even though McLeod had no legal relationship to the girl. It also, in conjunction with the ruling in favor of McLeod, said Clark cannot raise her child with any religious teaching or upbringing that is "homophobic."

Staver said courts cannot "give parents a no-win decision of either abandoning their Christian beliefs or abandoning their children."

The definition of "homophobic," Staver noted, is "all across the board," from being fearful of homosexuals to disagreeing with their lifestyle.

"It takes no stretch of the imagination to envision a judge finding the mother in contempt of court for merely teaching her daughter about the Biblical truths on homosexuality," he said.

Liberty Counsel filed a friend-of-the-court brief on behalf of the mother in her case before the Colorado Court of Appeals.

Staver notes the U.S. Supreme Court has long held that the Constitution guarantees the freedom to "worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience." Similarly, he said, the high court has acknowledged "the values of parental direction of the religious upbringing and education of our children in their early and formative years have a high place in our society."

Another troubling aspect of this case, he said, is the award of visitation and joint parenting responsibilities to a third-party who has no legal relationship to the daughter or the mother.

The decision, according to Staver, stands in direct conflict with precedent throughout the country that denies visitation to a third party based solely on that person's prior sexual relationship with the legal parent.

Staver told WND he is not aware of any similar cases in the U.S., although there have been some in which a judge has told a parent not to say anything degrading about the other parent's lifestyle.

None, to his knowledge, however, have gone to the extent of Coughlin, issuing a directive that restricts a parent's religious practice.
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by Spankes »

Seems to me that the other mother in the relationship is still a homosexual. So, teaching the daughter that homosexuality is wrong is sort of a snipe to the other mother. I see nothing wrong with this ruling.

He doesn't say she couldn't teach the child christianity, he said she cannot teach the child homophobia.
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Post by Zaelath »

"It takes no stretch of the imagination to envision a judge finding the mother in contempt of court for merely teaching her daughter about the Biblical truths on homosexuality," he said.
Apparently "interpretation" == "truths" now.

Oh and this from:
Mathew D. Staver, president and general counsel of Florida-based Liberty Counsel.
So also, "Liberty" == "Liberty to be exactly like me"
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Post by Vetiria »

This isn't activism. It's just one parent not teaching their child to hate the other parent. The fact that the issue behind it is homosexuality is irrelevant.
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Post by archeiron »

Vetiria wrote:This isn't activism. It's just one parent not teaching their child to hate the other parent. The fact that the issue behind it is homosexuality is irrelevant.
Personally, I agree with you, Vetiria. I find it distastefull when one parent tries to hide behind legal rights in a power struggle over a child. In this case, it seems that one parent is trying to use freedom of religion to turn their child against the other parent. It is distasteful to drag "all of Christianity" into this private dispute between parents.

However, I can appreciate that from a legal point of view this judge is pushing into murky waters, which may or may not be a good thing.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

Not murky waters at all. Some religous fanatics may want you to think otherwise, but this has nothing to do with "freedom of religion." Orders requiring that the parents of a child not act in ways that are destructive to the other's relationship with the child are commonplace. In fact, our freedom to travel is routinely "violated" under Brotha's rather twisted view of our freedoms when child custody is at issue.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Freedom means being able to teach your kids that homosexuality is disgusting, if one so chooses.
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Post by Vetiria »

You'd be correct, as long as those teachings didn't affect the other parent negatively.
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Post by Jice Virago »

Have no fear Mindyte. Your right to indoctrine your children with your fear of ass spelunking and the darkies will remain protected..... as long as you don't get into a custody battle with your gay black ex-boyfriend.
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Post by Ashur »

The Denver court gave McLeod joint custody of Clark's adopted daughter, Emma, even though McLeod had no legal relationship to the girl.
This is the part I don't understand.

Put aside all talk of homosexuality and religion, I'm not a bigot and this specific part of the ruling has nothing to do with it. I was married for many years and I was a stepfather the entire time before we were divorced. Does this mean now I could legally get joint parenting custody and/or visitation rights with my ex-wife's daughter?

It seems to be the proper precident, but IMHO it's pretty messed up and it's potential for abuse is beyond the pale.

EDIT: If you want to argue about the homosexuality part and if the concern is they should get more rights because they should be allowed to marry then we STILL are faced with the dilema of only one of them can be a biological parent, which means homosexual parents are equivical of step-parents (unless there is a legal adoption by the partner) when a break up comes.

Also, I agree on the religion thing due to other "non-destructive to the relationship with the other parent" thing, if we're assuming that the lover of the biological parent is a de-facto parent. Still surprised the ACLU didn't jump on it.
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Post by Zaelath »

I can't see why not Ash, though in this case you have an adopted kid and two mothers (who were possibly both there from the "start")

Just seems like a retrospective extension of adoption really..
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Post by Drasta »

this isn't activisim its called "im gonna use the child as a pawn over the other parent!" the parent doesn't give a shit about the kid (i know this because thats what my dad tried to do with me so don't go "he doesn't know what he's talking about") the parent is just using the child as a pawn to get back at the other parent ... so there
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Post by kyoukan »

How dare you impinge upon this woman's constitutional right to raise her child to hate. God bless her efforts to instill hatred and intolerance in her children, and God bless America.
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Post by nobody »

If the parent legitimately believes homosexuality is wrong from a religious viewpoint, then doesn't that take away her right to educate her child? i agree on the using the other parent against the child part as being fucked up but it seems to me inevitably that someones right are going to be infringed upon.
Last edited by nobody on April 10, 2004, 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by masteen »

Well, I think this is a prime example of government interfering in places it has no business. I know very well that this is being done purely out of spite for the gay parent, but freedom doesn't only apply to views and lifestyles you agree with. Laying down law like this is only a bunny hop away from Orwellian thought police on every corner.

<Insert Kyoukan calling me a stupid racist homophope>

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Post by Sionistic »

It should have been something like, allow to teach child to hate this this and that, but do not use it in situiations like, job hiring
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Post by nobody »

Sionistic wrote:It should have been something like, allow to teach child to hate this this and that, but do not use it in situiations like, job hiring
i don't think hate is the right word...disagree maybe?
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Vetiria wrote:You'd be correct, as long as those teachings didn't affect the other parent negatively.
Since when does the other partner matter? Aren't women allowed to kill their unborn babies without the mans knowing? hmmmm

Oh I get it! Gays have more rights than straight men. Makes sense in bizarro world, which happens to be here on planet earth these days.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

kyoukan wrote:How dare you impinge upon this woman's constitutional right to raise her child to hate. God bless her efforts to instill hatred and intolerance in her children, and God bless America.
Keep using your buzz words asshole. Just because the majority of us can recognize that being gay is abnormal, doesn't mean we fear nor hate them.

You can keep saying we do, but it doesn't make it true. But, there are peopel out there who really do hate gay people and gay bash as you call it. By clouding the issue with calling everyone intolerant, hateful, and fearful...you won't see them coming.
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Post by Drasta »

ab·nor·mal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-nôrml)
adj.
Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; >>deviant.<<

deviant

adj : markedly different from an accepted norm; "aberrent behavior"; deviant ideas" [syn: aberrant] n : a person whose behavior deviates from what is acceptable especially in sexual behavior [syn: pervert, deviate, degenerate]

per·vert ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-vûrt)
tr.v. per·vert·ed, per·vert·ing, per·verts
To cause to turn away from what is right, proper, or good; corrupt.

de·gen·er·ate
Having fallen to an inferior or undesirable state, especially in mental or moral qualities.

i love being called abnormal :-D
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Post by Zaelath »

Given Midnyte is pretty average in his opinions and intellect, I strive to be deviant :>
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Post by Siji »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Vetiria wrote:You'd be correct, as long as those teachings didn't affect the other parent negatively.
Since when does the other partner matter? Aren't women allowed to kill their unborn babies without the mans knowing? hmmmm
He said "parent" not "partner". Learn to read you stupid fuck. A man isn't a parent until a child is born. Maybe if you'd ever had sex with something near 98.6 degrees you'd know.
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Post by nobody »

Siji wrote: A man isn't a parent until a child is born.
so a woman can abort a child without the mans consent but you argue she can't preach religion without the other parents consent?
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Post by Siji »

nobody wrote:
Siji wrote: A man isn't a parent until a child is born.
so a woman can abort a child without the mans consent but you argue she can't preach religion without the other parents consent?
I didn't argue anything about a parents right to preach whatever they want to their children. And yes, I think a woman should be allowed to do whatever she wants to with her body, and she doesn't need a man to tell her it's ok.
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Post by nobody »

hmm i feel different, but that's for my own reasons
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Post by kyoukan »

masteen is a homophope.

if it was a case of a woman woman who had a child with a white man, turned lesbian and was teaching her kid to hate straight men, you rightie shit sacks would be crying like a bunch of spoiled babies who just shat their diapers. not that you ever, ever stop fucking crying about every little fucking thing.
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Post by Xzion »

How the hell does someone have the right to bitch about a judge not allowing a parent to teach discrimination and hate?
Stupid nazi fucks... :?


ooo another thing, it is wrong for a judge to interfere which a parents right to teach the kid predjutice and discrimination....but the government has the right to censor television and knock off "dirty" radio shows?

This goverment HAS TO GO, there is no other way to experience progression in this country if it doesnt, were taking a giant leep backwords and its very, very sad.
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Post by Vetiria »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Vetiria wrote:You'd be correct, as long as those teachings didn't affect the other parent negatively.
Since when does the other partner matter? Aren't women allowed to kill their unborn babies without the mans knowing? hmmmm

Oh I get it! Gays have more rights than straight men. Makes sense in bizarro world, which happens to be here on planet earth these days.
What? Make a post that actually has something to do with the topic and I might be able to respond to you.
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Post by nobody »

everything is hate and predjudice to you kyoukan and Xzion. it must be a sad world you live in inside your little heads where everyone is a racist, bigot, homophope, and/or nazi. i agree that a parent shouldn't teach hate and discrimination. but they should be able to teach what is clearly in the Bible, Koran, Tora, or whatever else they believe in. as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of other people, and telling a woman she can't teach her child that the Bible teaches homosexuality is wrong takes away her rights. if it were up to you the thought police would be roaming the streets of America. the world has enough of those already, ie. Taliban, AQ.
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Post by Forthe »

Well I think we should stop looking at this in a general context, it really is a very specific case.

A parent has every right to teach their child to hate gays. We may not like it but they have that right. However, every right we have must be balanced\tested against the rights of others and the harm that may be caused by the execution of that right.

In this case the parents right to teach the child to hate gays is being weighed against the harm it causes the child and the harm it causes the other parent and the relationship between the two.

The ruling IMO does not in any way say that in general a parent cannot teach their children to hate gays.
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Post by Xzion »

nobody wrote:everything is hate and predjudice to you kyoukan and Xzion. it must be a sad world you live in inside your little heads where everyone is a racist, bigot, homophope, and/or nazi. i agree that a parent shouldn't teach hate and discrimination. but they should be able to teach what is clearly in the Bible, Koran, Tora, or whatever else they believe in. as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of other people, and telling a woman she can't teach her child that the Bible teaches homosexuality is wrong takes away her rights. if it were up to you the thought police would be roaming the streets of America. the world has enough of those already, ie. Taliban, AQ.
WTF are you talking about, GW Bushs ideals resemble that of the taliban and AQ pretty closely, he hates social freedom (abortion, gay rights, freedom of the press,freedom to treat ones body as they desire, freedom to not be spyed on via patriot act), he contributes government money to faith based programs, and starts an "axis of EVIL". He supports a death penalty which is only praticed in the modern world by 3rd world fanatical governments such as that of the Taliban, Congo, Saudi Arabia etc.

That child does not deserve to be corrupted by a fanatical parent giving false ideals, and teaching the child to hate the other parent and those who follow a certain lifestyle.
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Post by kyoukan »

nobody wrote:everything is hate and predjudice to you kyoukan and Xzion. it must be a sad world you live in inside your little heads where everyone is a racist, bigot, homophope, and/or nazi.
This from a guy who's first few posts were filled with gems like "towel head" and "asscrackistan"

Gee I can't imagine why I see hateful cunts like yourself everywhere I look. Go step on a fucking landmine.

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Post by masteen »

kyoukan wrote:if it was a case of a woman woman who had a child with a white man, turned lesbian and was teaching her kid to hate straight men...
You know very well that if that was the case, the judge would have kept his nose out of it for fear of the gay activist groups.
kyoukan wrote:you rightie shit sacks would be crying like a bunch of spoiled babies who just shat their diapers. not that you ever, ever stop fucking crying about every little fucking thing
The government dictating how anyone can raise their kids is complete bullshit, no matter how you spin it. Guess Kyoukan liked what she read in 1984, because rulings like this are how it starts.
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Post by kyoukan »

you think a "gay activist group" is going to defend someone who is raising their child to hate?

also: 1984 reference lol
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Post by masteen »

Yup. If this were a lesbian raising a kid to hate men, not only would a judge have had them on his ass, but I bet NOW would have had something to say as well.
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Post by Xzion »

Xzion wrote:
nobody wrote:everything is hate and predjudice to you kyoukan and Xzion. it must be a sad world you live in inside your little heads where everyone is a racist, bigot, homophope, and/or nazi. i agree that a parent shouldn't teach hate and discrimination. but they should be able to teach what is clearly in the Bible, Koran, Tora, or whatever else they believe in. as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of other people, and telling a woman she can't teach her child that the Bible teaches homosexuality is wrong takes away her rights. if it were up to you the thought police would be roaming the streets of America. the world has enough of those already, ie. Taliban, AQ.
WTF are you talking about, GW Bushs ideals resemble that of the taliban and AQ pretty closely, he hates social freedom (abortion, gay rights, freedom of the press,freedom to treat ones body as they desire, freedom to not be spyed on via patriot act), he contributes government money to faith based programs, and starts an "axis of EVIL". He supports a death penalty which is only praticed in the modern world by 3rd world fanatical governments such as that of the Taliban, Congo, Saudi Arabia etc.
That child does not deserve to be corrupted by a fanatical parent giving false ideals, and teaching the child to hate the other parent and those who follow a certain lifestyle.
This asshole is taking away real freedom, and your dumb asses are bitching against the freedom to hate and be predjutice against a minority?

Godamn there is something wrong with people
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Post by kyoukan »

masteen wrote:Yup. If this were a lesbian raising a kid to hate men, not only would a judge have had them on his ass, but I bet NOW would have had something to say as well.
oh yea, I forgot. you are one of those righties that imagines things like mainstream and politically relevant militant lesbian groups that advocate teaching children to hate men. because all organizations that advocate the equalization of gay people under the law have a secret agenda to hate all straight people.

for a moment there I thought I was talking to someone who wasn't a total fucking dumbass. for that I apologize.
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Post by Xyun »

If she has a right to teach her child to hate gays, does the other parent have the right to teach the same child to hate christians?

I certainly hope so, because the latter is how I'm going to raise my child.
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Post by Arundel Pajo »

On preview: What Forthe said. This is a specific case weighing the rights of two parents against each other - not a general case.

Also - can somebody who considers themselves rathe right of center please define "activist judge" for me? I'm curious.
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Post by Forthe »

Xyun wrote:If she has a right to teach her child to hate gays, does the other parent have the right to teach the same child to hate christians?

I certainly hope so, because the latter is how I'm going to raise my child.
Yes lower yourself down to the level of dumb christian conservatives. Brilliant idea there.

/sarcasm off (for dumb folks like cart\brotha)
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Post by Ajran »

Vetiria wrote:This isn't activism. It's just one parent not teaching their child to hate the other parent. The fact that the issue behind it is homosexuality is irrelevant.
except for the fact that this isn't a case of 2 parents.. the person awarded joint custody is NOT the childs parent.

If this was the case of 2 parents, then I would agree with the decision based on the fact that each parent has a right to teach their child according to thier own beleifs.

Unfortunately in most cases i would beleive the parents are so damned selfish and more interested at getting back at the other that they use the children and the courts to do it.
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Post by nobody »

kyoukan wrote: Go step on a fucking landmine.
Christian fundamentalism is built on hatred, intolerance and bigotry.
who is built on hatred and intolerance? suddenly it's ok for you to classify a whole group of people. and as for landmines, don't forget it's people like me who are willing to risk our lives to make sure people like you have the freedom to think the way you do. your welcome kyoukan. oh and btw, i am christian and i still support gay marriage.
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Post by Jice Virago »

In 2000 years, when Kyo has caught up with all the intolerance, torture, wars, and corruption that christianity has managed to rack up, then you can feel free to call her a hypocrite. Until then, keep stimulating your self by pulling those rosary beads through the rim of your asshole, because its the only passion of the christ you are likely to relate to.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
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Post by nobody »

hey i'm not arguing that christians haven't been fucked up but why single them out? people in general are fucked up, it's not just christians.
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Post by Aaeamdar »

True, its most organized religions. Christianity has just been more successful than most, when it comes to body counts.
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Post by nobody »

southpark says the mormons are right. maybe i'll give them a shot. :D
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Post by Kaldaur »

Ahh, yes. South Park said it best when applying to people like you.
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Post by Jice Virago »

Aside from their prolific success at excess, the main reason christians are such a heavy target of free thinkers is they embrace the double standard more than any other mainstream faith. They also have the least amount of tollerance for other people's faith (indeed, until they persecuted Islamics during the crusades, muslims were a lot more accepting of other people's faith and ideolism) and have an amazing propensity for claiming to be the one true word when anyone with a descent encyclopedia can look up all of the religeons and cultures that they pulled their ideas from. As a rule, atheists don't try and force others to conform to our belief structure, except as it restricts people's freedom of choice. Christians have demonstrated that they lack that quality, time and again.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Xyun wrote:If she has a right to teach her child to hate gays, does the other parent have the right to teach the same child to hate christians?

I certainly hope so, because the latter is how I'm going to raise my child.
People shouldn't be teaching "hate" at all. Giving them a realistic outlook on life is fine. But, to teach "hate" is downright criminal as far as I'm concerned.

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Post by Spankes »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:But, to teach "hate" is downright criminal as far as I'm concerned.
If it is downright criminal to you then why not agree with the judge's ruling? Homophobia is hate, and he said it would not be tolerated in this case.



Again, for the people just just don't want to get it. He was making sure one parent didn't taint the child's view of the other...he didn't make a broad sweeping and precident altering decision.

And, before we see this again...
except for the fact that this isn't a case of 2 parents.. the person awarded joint custody is NOT the childs parent.
Pretend you marry/live with/partner with someone who has a child, and they become like your own child, perhaps you even adopt them. Then you split up some time later and they start teaching the child to hate you becaue you are a man, woman, black, white, gay, straight....tell me then that it is ok. After all, you are not the child's parent.
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