1 Year Later

Mort · Post by **Mort** » March 16, 2004, 12:06 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/Go ... 40314.html

Seems like a pretty positive response to me. Discuss

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 16, 2004, 12:21 pm

Interesting, would like more info about the people they picked for it though. Like, did they intervie anyone from Hussein's home town or that area? When you pick 2700 people (which is not all that much) you can influence the outcome greatly with WHO you pick.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » March 16, 2004, 12:25 pm

My cousin and her husband are both stationed in Iraq atm. She is doing something to do with supplies and he is a ranger. Last time I heard news from her (a week or two ago?), she had said that she had gone along on a convoy. She said that families would come out of the villages to wave. The children ran up to give her flowers. She was appauled by the state that they were living in, but found the people to be generally friendly.

While this second hand information is hardly conclusive as a nationwide consensus, I do consider her to be a good source. She is smart, perceptive, and has had the chance to travel around. Her comments somewhat surprised me, as this point of view is not really shown on the news.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 16, 2004, 12:36 pm

i'm sure that is fairly accurate.

i have no doubt the people in Iraq have generally the same aspirations as the people in my neighborhood. that is primarily they want their children to be safe and healthy. they want the opportunity to be able to provide for their families, and of course get some sattelite TV

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 16, 2004, 12:37 pm

Kelshara wrote:Interesting, would like more info about the people they picked for it though. Like, did they intervie anyone from Hussein's home town or that area? When you pick 2700 people (which is not all that much) you can influence the outcome greatly with WHO you pick.

Heh you say 2700 isn't all that much? 2700 is a massive "N" for a poll very vigorous...Looking at the methods which they included, it looks like a pretty valid poll...Though its a bit hard to generate a random sample and they didn't specifically address how they generated the sample...the questions aren't leading (you can DL the actual questionnaire)...I'd say offhand their numbers are pretty good and probably reflective of current opinions...

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 16, 2004, 12:39 pm

Voronwë wrote:i'm sure that is fairly accurate.

i have no doubt the people in Iraq have generally the same aspirations as the people in my neighborhood. that is primarily they want their children to be safe and healthy. they want the opportunity to be able to provide for their families, and of course get some sattelite TV

Perhaps we could get them all free subscriptions to EQ!...Sony CS would become a LOT more attentive to customer needs once they have a jihad declared on them...

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » March 16, 2004, 12:44 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Voronwë wrote:i'm sure that is fairly accurate.

i have no doubt the people in Iraq have generally the same aspirations as the people in my neighborhood. that is primarily they want their children to be safe and healthy. they want the opportunity to be able to provide for their families, and of course get some sattelite TV
Perhaps we could get them all free subscriptions to EQ!...Sony CS would become a LOT more attentive to customer needs once they have a jihad declared on them...

Holy shit! That might just work!

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 16, 2004, 12:56 pm

The results are, and I think should not be, suprising. Hussain was a bad guy. When bad guys are deposed, things are generally better off.

My opinion on the matter remains the same. I supported the war. I would still be a supporter of the war if Bush had said going into it "Hussain is a eally bad guy. The world as a whole wants to continue using sanctions that do little to Hussain, but do increase the suffering of the Iraqi people. I disagree with that approach and have decided it is time for the US to liberate Iraq from this dictator." I would also still support the war if the WMD appeared to be an honest mistake. However, O'Niel's (Suskind's) book makes it clear that was not the case.

So results aside (which I knew would be positive, and will remain positive as long as we stay there long enough to establish a stable republic in Iraq and continue to support it as an ally thereafter), the war remains a clear violation of trust between the Bush administration and those they govern.

Mort · Post by **Mort** » March 16, 2004, 1:06 pm

I must say, being a right winger... I am suprised so far and happy everyone can see thru the politics and be happy for the people, Dubya aside. I was for the war, but also opposed to the WMD rhetoric. That being said, I would not be suprised if 2 years from now, a cache was found burried somewhere.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 16, 2004, 2:32 pm

Heh you say 2700 isn't all that much? 2700 is a massive "N" for a poll very vigorous...Looking at the methods which they included, it looks like a pretty valid poll...Though its a bit hard to generate a random sample and they didn't specifically address how they generated the sample...the questions aren't leading (you can DL the actual questionnaire)...I'd say offhand their numbers are pretty good and probably reflective of current opinions...

The reason I said what I said is that this isn't your everyday country to do a poll in. There are so many factions that if you leave one out, it will severely impact the poll. Like, if they did not interview people in the region that support Saddam they would gain a lot of US support. If they only interviewed people in that region, it would show a huge negative opinion of the US. See what I mean?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 16, 2004, 2:36 pm

Kelshara wrote:
Heh you say 2700 isn't all that much? 2700 is a massive "N" for a poll very vigorous...Looking at the methods which they included, it looks like a pretty valid poll...Though its a bit hard to generate a random sample and they didn't specifically address how they generated the sample...the questions aren't leading (you can DL the actual questionnaire)...I'd say offhand their numbers are pretty good and probably reflective of current opinions...
The reason I said what I said is that this isn't your everyday country to do a poll in. There are so many factions that if you leave one out, it will severely impact the poll. Like, if they did not interview people in the region that support Saddam they would gain a lot of US support. If they only interviewed people in that region, it would show a huge negative opinion of the US. See what I mean?

Right they actually addressed that in the article...

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 16, 2004, 7:26 pm

Talking about the state of countries I just wanted to bring up another country and there progress atm. Afghanistan.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040308/wchart.html

While its not perfect (like the opium harvest numbers are back up)and long from way from finished(many war lords) some numbers are looking good. There is still plenty of years before there will be stability and self rule.

1million educated children under the Taliban almost all boys now 4 million enrolled, with 1.4 million being girls and the most in Afghanistans history.

Foreign aid, 9.2 billion through the end of 2004.

casualties from what some claimed would be another vietnam:
108 US soldiers killed, and 600 seriously injured. 3,300 Afghan civilians killed.

Refugees which since the early 80s has been a major issue there:
2.5 million Afghan refugees have returned since the fall of the Taliban, with 1.2 million still misplaced..

Wages:
$2.70 avg wage for the day under the Taliban
$6.25 avg daily wage now

300mile road linking Kabul and Kandahar. Travel time reduced from 12-18hr to almost 4hrs.

Taliban are threatening to burn down schools and mosques where afghans are signing up to vote(only 9% atm)...this looks bad, but it shows they are trying to vote and shows again what type of people these extremist are.

near 40 internet cafes in Kabul VV!

The Afghanistan economy has grown more than 20% in each of the past 2 years.

And the people are starting to get more confident in there Gov't.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 16, 2004, 7:35 pm

I think most people supported the Afghanistan offensive, so it's a bit of a limp dick when it comes to examples. I'd never heard of it referred to as another vietnam personally... that was Iraq.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 16, 2004, 7:52 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:I think most people supported the Afghanistan offensive, so it's a bit of a limp dick when it comes to examples. I'd never heard of it referred to as another vietnam personally... that was Iraq.

Afghanistan was referred to as Russia's Vietnam, thanks largely to the equpiment and training we supplied the very same terrorists we're hunting down today.

I think a lot of people thought it would be the same for us in Afghanistan.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 16, 2004, 8:13 pm

Unfortunately, Afghanistan is far from over. Only a fool would think so.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » March 16, 2004, 8:26 pm

Kelshara wrote:Unfortunately, Afghanistan is far from over. Only a fool would think so.

That only depends on your definition of "over". The surgery is over, but the road to recover is just beginning and there is no guarantee that the patient will survive.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 16, 2004, 8:29 pm

With the amount of Warlords I wouldn't say surgery is over. I would say that the initial tumor has been removed, but unfortunately there seems to be proof of it spreading.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 16, 2004, 8:45 pm

Afghanistan was an enemy state that harbored a terrorist that attacked our country. Our invasion and occupation there was and is justified by that governments choices. Any benefits to the Afghan people are side effects of us doing what was necessary and justified as a result of the attacks on the US. It might be good policy to help Afghanistan rebuild itself, but the US has no moral obligation to do so. The situation is very different from Iraq, where the US acted exclusively out of the desire to replace the then current government of Iraq with a government more acceptable to the US. In that circumstance we have a clear obligation to create a stable government before we leave, and an obligation to assist that government, to the extent they desire such help, after we leave.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » March 17, 2004, 12:57 am

I'm really glad to read the results of that poll. Whether we were right to invade or not, Iraq is now our problem and I'm heartened to hear it's not as bad as some think.

Still voting for Kerry.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 17, 2004, 12:58 am

moral obligation to rebuild afghanistan?

who cares, it is the only thing that will keep the Taliban (or an analogue) from taking over again. we have to rebuild afghanistan, or all our efforts there are wasted.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 17, 2004, 11:03 am

Aaeamdar wrote:The world as a whole wants to continue using sanctions that do little to Hussain, but do increase the suffering of the Iraqi people.

Sort of like, say, Cuba?

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 17, 2004, 6:09 pm

While the cigar trade in Cuba is quite lucrative for young teenage boys who think they are getting away with something by smoking, I'm afraid it doesn't have quite the economic power that Iraq can have in the future by a US-controlled free market of oil.

Besides, Cuba doesn't have WMDs.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 17, 2004, 6:15 pm

Kaldaur wrote:While the cigar trade in Cuba is quite lucrative for young teenage boys who think they are getting away with something by smoking, I'm afraid it doesn't have quite the economic power that Iraq can have in the future by a US-controlled free market of oil.

Besides, Cuba doesn't have WMDs.

I think he was referring to all the embargos and restrictions placed on Cuba by the US government, not just some cigar trade. BUT THANKS FOR COMING OUT ANYWAYS FUCKFACE!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 17, 2004, 6:17 pm

***edit***

It was a great rant too. But, I misread Voro's post.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 17, 2004, 6:25 pm

You pathetic wretch of a man, where the fuck did Voronwe say any of that. I know you're stupid, but are you illiterate too? Let me dumb down what Voro said into terms that you'll understand:

We's a gots ta remake tha afganeestuni?

I reckon I's don'ts care, if'n we dun do it thems thar Talibanees or sum other sand negros will just up n' do it agai'. It ain't no moral obliga.. obligati.. duty ta go an' do it, eet's just smrt to finish it.

See what I do for you? I bring myself down to your level, as difficult as it was to think like you do. By the way, you're a fucking idiot.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 17, 2004, 6:29 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:You pathetic wretch of a man

Ouch.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 17, 2004, 6:33 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Stupid drivel that failed to say anything, especially anything on subject.

I agree.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 17, 2004, 9:52 pm

I think he was referring to all the embargos and restrictions placed on Cuba by the US government, not just some cigar trade. BUT THANKS FOR COMING OUT ANYWAYS FUCKFACE!

Actually, if you had considered putting any thought at all into what I said, you would have realized that there was a great deal of sarcasm in my post. By pointing out that Cuba has nothing of value to give to the US compared to the economic potential of Iraq, I showed that we did not fight a war to liberate the people of Iraq. A humanitarian campaign such as that would have made us responsible for liberating all other countries ruled by dictators. We went to war in Iraq because it would get us a reward. However, if you fail to catch onto this on a regular basis, I will put in the /sarcasm off feature from now on to help you along. Also, well done on resorting to tossing around the word fuckface in order to help your argument move along. It really added to the overall point which you failed to make. Back off next time and consider what exactly is written on the page before jumping someone.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 17, 2004, 9:59 pm

Kaldaur wrote:
I think he was referring to all the embargos and restrictions placed on Cuba by the US government, not just some cigar trade. BUT THANKS FOR COMING OUT ANYWAYS FUCKFACE!
Actually, if you had considered putting any thought at all into what I said, you would have realized that there was a great deal of sarcasm in my post. By pointing out that Cuba has nothing of value to give to the US compared to the economic potential of Iraq, I showed that we did not fight a war to liberate the people of Iraq. A humanitarian campaign such as that would have made us responsible for liberating all other countries ruled by dictators. We went to war in Iraq because it would get us a reward. However, if you fail to catch onto this on a regular basis, I will put in the /sarcasm off feature from now on to help you along. Also, well done on resorting to tossing around the word fuckface in order to help your argument move along. It really added to the overall point which you failed to make. Back off next time and consider what exactly is written on the page before jumping someone.

I considered that you were using sarcasm, and frankly I didn't care, because it was still a flawed argument. To say that it's ok to squelch Cuba simply because the payoff isn't as lucrative for the states doesn't defeat the fact that it was a hypocritical argument ("The world as a whole wants to continue using sanctions that do little to Hussain, but do increase the suffering of the Iraqi people.") which was the original point of contention. So sarcasm or not, you still added absolutely nothing to the conversation other than your own over-inflated sense of self-importance and the fleeting thought that you had something to add to the conversation.

Fuckface.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 17, 2004, 10:18 pm

You still don't understand, do you. I am not taking a hypocritical stance, because it's not my stance to begin with. I'm not pointing out my beliefs on the subject, but the stance this administration has taken. Both countries had embargos placed on them, both countries' dictators enjoyed a standard of living far beyond that of their people. However, we invaded one country and removed the dictator while leaving the other in charge. One has no economic value to this current administration (indeed, Bush is rewarded by leaving Castro in charge because the conservative Cuban vote of southern Florida likes the hard-line stance against Castro implemented and maintained by our government while losing nothing in return--who cares what Cuban peasants are feeling when they have nothing to give to the United States), while the other has the potential to be a huge oil producing country. Much of that oil will come to the US because of our gracious efforts to liberate its people and turn Iraq into a free market economy.
Please tell me, Captain Obvious, where the flaw is in this line of thinking. Cuba's cigar trade and sugar output have nothing on the economic punch that oil delivers in today's economy. We liberated the people of Iraq because of the potential reward in the future. If we went into the country for humanitarian purposes, that invasion would place upon our country an undue burden to free all other countries with ruthless dictators in charge, and many of those countries have nothing to offer us.
Now, I'll point something else out to you. This is how the administration portrayed the war after the WMD argument proved to be useless. "We went to liberate the Iraqi people," Bush was apt to say. If that was the case, then why is North Korea negotiated with, and diplomacy used instead of invasion to liberate the people from a communist regime? The North Korean people live under oppressive circumstances, just as Iraq. There are many differences, but the same principle remains, and that is that both groups of people lack the freedoms we enjoy. Iraq has the ability to reward us for our effort, while North Korea does not.

Here's a way for you to understand this, Dregor: RvR. Risk versus Reward, the basis for Everquest encounters. It was an ample enough reward to attack Iraq and take on the problems we have now for the future payoff of discounted oil. It is not worth the risk to liberate Cuba and lose lives for a very small reward.
While we're speaking about adding to the conversation, let's review your contributions:

I agree.

Fuckface.

By the way, you're a fucking idiot.

THANKS FOR COMING OUT ANYWAYS FUCKFACE!

I think most people supported the Afghanistan offensive, so it's a bit of a limp dick when it comes to examples. I'd never heard of it referred to as another vietnam personally... that was Iraq.

So name-calling, trying to attack the writer instead of his arguments, restating what people like Voronwe already pointed out, and just stating agreement with whatever was posted above is

still adding absolutely nothing to the conversation other than your own over-inflated sense of self-importance and the fleeting thought that you had something to add to the conversation.

Like I stated before, well done.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 17, 2004, 10:34 pm

Just go back to whatever rock you crawled out from under and quit trying to hijack this thread with your unimportant argument that noone really wants you to explain.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 17, 2004, 11:05 pm

First of all, welcome to VV. You apparently never got the jackass welcoming and you haven't been reading the forums for any length of time because you wouldn't bat an eyelash at swearing or people calling other people names. If you're going to fall back on that as some sort of holier-than-thou excuse on why you're better than someone, try over at those Bruce Willis forums or whatever your personal preference is, because believe me, we don't care.

Now, on to the meat of the issue. Preaching to the choir. I know all those things, I believe all those things, and I agree with all those things. You never stated any other stance (sarcastic or not) on where your feelings were. I took what you said and worked with it. And know what? I wasn't wrong. The issue of Cuba was brought up as counterpoint to the sanctions being used on Iraq not harming anyone but the Iraqi people, and it's true. I defended that point, and still do. Of course Iraq is a more lucrative venture. Of course the US administrations ultimate goals were money and resources, sprinkled with some big boy strutting. It would take an imbecile like Midynte not to see that. Points for the Captain Obvious comment, that's one of my favorite ones to use. There was no flaw in your thinking, just your approach.

Here's another to add to your collection:

Choke on a dick.

Byebye!

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 17, 2004, 11:16 pm

I love a good use of swearing to back up an argument as much as anyone else here on VV. If I didn't, I wouldn't have stayed lurking here for as long as I have. I just don't like basing an entire argument on that swearing.

Since we seem to be in complete agreement over the issue of Iraq compared to Cuba, there's really no point in continuing this blatant hijack. Please, I ask you in the future, never make any link to myself and Midnyte. My very unMidnytesque political views cried out when I saw his name pinned to mine. Think of my feelings, Dregor, and don't ever do that again.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 17, 2004, 11:28 pm

Woah, woah! I'm very careful about who I compare to being like Midnyte. I didn't mean it in that way, I swear!(bad habit of mine) Was more of a "Who do I look like, Midnyte?" type of thing

Oh, and Midnyte. No, you did not have a good rant. You've never had a good rant, and most likely you never will have a good rant, but please, keep trying, your antics help make my day go by that much quicker.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 17, 2004, 11:34 pm

Kaldaur wrote:I love a good use of swearing to back up an argument as much as anyone else here on VV. If I didn't, I wouldn't have stayed lurking here for as long as I have. I just don't like basing an entire argument on that swearing.

Since we seem to be in complete agreement over the issue of Iraq compared to Cuba, there's really no point in continuing this blatant hijack. Please, I ask you in the future, never make any link to myself and Midnyte. My very unMidnytesque political views cried out when I saw his name pinned to mine. Think of my feelings, Dregor, and don't ever do that again.

Yeah being linked to me is a horrible thing. I'm so outlandish and out there. It's not easy having a different way of looking at things than the vast majority of posters here. I thought I could engage in some decent conversation and get a little to and fro. But, it has been mainly fro. Beaten and dragged through the streets for having a differing view.

This is my last post. Rejoice, you have won you guys. Maybe if a few more non liberals leave all your posts can start with a topic, then have like 27 replies mearly stating "Yeah, I think so too." mmmm how interesting that will be.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 17, 2004, 11:38 pm

Midnyte, no one else here gets my blood pressure rising like you do. You're quite possibly one of the only ones here that I enjoy getting pissed at. You're the new Searyx, man. Wear that badge with pride!

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 18, 2004, 12:08 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:This is my last post. Rejoice, you have won you guys. Maybe if a few more non liberals leave all your posts can start with a topic, then have like 27 replies mearly stating "Yeah, I think so too." mmmm how interesting that will be.

Yea, because before you started your stream of shit, everyone here agreed on everything. Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Etasi · Post by **Etasi** » March 18, 2004, 7:10 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I thought I could engage in some decent conversation and get a little to and fro. But, it has been mainly fro. Beaten and dragged through the streets for having a differing view.

You don't get it. The problem people have with you isn't your views, it's the fact that you're ignorant. Case in point? The occasions upon which those who should be on your side have told you to shut up, lest you make them look bad.

Maybe you have some reasonable viewpoints, but you're incapable of expounding upon them in a way that's acceptable to anyone who listens to you, whether they agree with your basic stance or not. You are ignorant, and you revel in your ignorance, because your extreme "us vs them" mentality prevents you from ever having a real discussion with anyone, much less learning anything.

Yes, there are people who will discount what you say out of hand because you're a conservative, the same way you do with liberals. But there are people on this board, and elsewhere, who actually enjoy discussing things with those who share opposing views. The reason no one enjoys discussing anything with you is because you refuse to allow silly little things like facts, logic, and reason to affect your arguments.

In short, get a clue.