Scopes - Part Duex Georgia Strikes Back

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » February 2, 2004, 2:34 pm

god can do anything because he's god ......duh

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » February 2, 2004, 2:40 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:God has no limits.

He's quite capable of "dreaming up" the universe in an instant as we are capable of dreaming up a picture of a circle in our mind.

Creation in 7 days? God can do it.
Creation in 7 "seasons" God can do it.
Creation in 7 miliennia? God can do it.
Creation through Evolution? God can do it.

I'm not too concerned about the method. I recognise the cause of the effect.

We are the dream of God. The creator of universal laws, is abstracted from them. He can do whatever he wants.

Teaching evolution in class is fine, just so long as it's presented as our best guess, given a system that ignores the half of our reality.

If god is capable of anything - then it is clearly his fault for everything bad in this world, according to your argument.

If god dreamed up this world and all of its inhabitants - I'll tell you this, he's one incompitent, irresponsible sack of shit.

As for evolution vs. creationism - they're both wrong, we came from teh aliens!

...what are you retarded? Of course creationism is a steaming pile of dog crap, it was thought up by the same fucktards that claim that using a condom won't protect you from Aids.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 2, 2004, 2:50 pm

Mystical mumblings...the last line of defense for those whose arguements are naught but smoke and mirrors...

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 2, 2004, 2:56 pm

Arbor-

your last post on page 1 was very well crafted, by the way =).

Adex, exactly what evidence do you have for us to support your claims that God is capable of "'dreaming up' the universance in an instant"

seriously, how do you know? you don't, and can't. you must accept the limitations of a faith-based world view as well as its strengths if you choose to adhere to it strictly.

i was talking to a coworker about this the other day, and the guy wanted to pick and choose which bits of scientific knowledge he would accept into his world view (conceded that yeah dinosaurs were real an not contemporaries of man, etc).

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » February 2, 2004, 3:03 pm

Omg Voro is at 3999 posts!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 2, 2004, 3:16 pm

Adex:

You have a situation where you believe that:

So rather than label those who disagree with me as ignorant, or closed minded, I reserve judgement. I allow for the fact that they may hold worldviews that are obscured from me, or vice versa.

However, most people who hold said different worldviews are not nearly as accepting of your view as you are of theirs. I see two reasons for this:

The first reason is that you're a reasonable guy. As a reasonable guy, you can see some of the rationale behind the beliefs of people like myself, voro, and most everyone else on this thread.

The second reason is that your position is irrational. Notice that I'm not saying it is wrong, per se, just that it doesn't make any sense. I'm sure you have your own reasons for believing in Christianity, but I, and many others on this board, are not willing to simply accept facts as they're told to us, especially when those facts have no proof or basis in rational fact, and when philosophical arguments can very convincingly poke at various statements of Christian theology.

Basically, it works like this:

You see science, and you see all the facts that lie behind it, and how they often adequately explain our observations of our world. Science follows a specific method, and is easily explained through rational thought. As a rational person, it's easy for you to understand why other people believe so strongly in this, and so you set aside a certain amount of respect for it's adherents.

I see religion, and I see no basis for why you believe as you do. You claim that (basically) there's a mystical man in the sky who loves us and needs money (per George Carlin), created us in a week, has strict rules about the eating of apples, and has a semidivine impersonation on earth who is to all outward appearances a senile old man (although a very nice one), with a complex bureaucracy around him so ridiculous that he cannot articulate whether or not he enjoyed a movie (the pope enjoyed the movie, but it is not the popes job to pass judgement on the movie), and so on. Then of course, the many varieties of Christians can't even agree on whether the pope matters or not, and then there's the Jews, who say that you're right up until Jesus hits the picture, and then you just lost it. None of this makes any fucking sense. You're constantly arguing about the validity of things which may or may not have happened thousands of years ago and may or may not bear any actual relevance to questions of creation, mysticism, and the order of things.

From this perspective, the only reason I don't dismiss you as a lunatic is because so many other people think the same way you do.

As it is, I'm forced to classify you as "probably deluded." There does exist some chance that perhaps you and every other Christian has experienced some sort of personal miracle or revelation that I simply cannot understand because it has not occured to me yet (or at all). However, since I cannot prove this, and you cannot prove this, and the odds against this, lead to me to dismiss it in my day-to-day thought and add the qualifier "probably" to my initial classification of "deluded."

From what you've said, you don't classify me the same way; you classify me as, basically "someone who disagrees." I would expect this, based on the simple fact that my philosophy makes sense and yours does not.

Edit to correct grammar and apologize for the density and verbosity of my writing.

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » February 2, 2004, 3:25 pm

I never understood why evolution and religion could not work hand in hand. Sure, maybe God created the world in its entirety...but that doesn't mean it didn't take millions of years.

7 God days != 7 Earth days, why is that so hard for people to understand? Even the most 'learned' and 'devout' theologians will tell you that a great deal of the bible is meant to be interpreted, that much of it is metaphor. The stories may be accurate, but that doesn't mean they are flawless.

As far as I am concerned, God created a[/] world, that evolved in to this one. I think it was all part of the master plan. Moreover, I think it only proves God's power more that he can throw some gasses together in a pot, make a big bang and watch it evolve in to exactly what he wants it to be....much more impressive that waving his hand a few times over the course of a week imo.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 2, 2004, 3:32 pm

Spankes, for the record, mainstream* Christian denominations (Catholicism, Episcopalianism, Presbyterianism, and Reform Judaism for that matter) accept that the earth and the universe are not 5,700 years old. They accept that science does more accurately describe the history of the universe than the Judeo-Christian myths in the bible. However, they do not view a realistic viewing of the world as contra-indicative of the validity of their faith.

They also hold the view, that God created the universe in this way. Which is certainly more plausible than a "Creationist" view.

Cause here is the deal: THe universe DID begin an expansion 10-12 billion years ago, and humans did evolve from other primates who evolved from other mammals who evolved from reptiles who evolved from amphibians, who probably specifically evolved from Rhipidistian (sp.) Crossopterygian fishes, and if not those, then likely Dipnoids. (i butchered the spelling on those taxonomic references. been awhile since 1995)

* - i refer to these as mainstream Christian denominations, because of their current roll in American society as well as their history of being politically influential denominations in Europe and the US for hundreds of years. NOt to mention that they all fund historical theological research. ie: they aren't a flash in the pan in terms of the history of Christianity.

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » February 2, 2004, 3:43 pm

And that is kind of my point. So, why do these people think that evolution is such a bad thing to teach? Or are people in Georgia just that out of touch with reality?

In short, my point is that one theory does not disprove the other, they even actually compliment each other. Why not teach that?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 2, 2004, 3:50 pm

Well you can't teach that, because it amounts to government support for religion, and it's every bit as fanciful as the notion that Vishnu and Shiva created the earth on a turtles back using the blood and flesh of a giant (note- that's not an actual myth, i think). We don't teach that myth, and we shouldn't. We shouldn't teach mythology as fact in general.

What we should do is teach the facts as we know them, about evolution, the big bang, and so forth, and leave open the possibility that some spiritual force may have played a role in the universe, without condoning or condemning such a belief. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't even mention it.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 2, 2004, 3:52 pm

Spankes wrote:And that is kind of my point. So, why do these people think that evolution is such a bad thing to teach? Or are people in Georgia just that out of touch with reality?

In short, my point is that one theory does not disprove the other, they even actually compliment each other. Why not teach that?

well it isnt really the 'people in Georgia' who want this. It is a minority of people who wish to use the political system to legitimize their fringe religious zealotry, and to move stepwise ever onward towards continueing to intermingle their particular religion (fundamentalist Christianity) with the political process.

The governor of GA has already come out and said that it was nonsense, and he's a Republican in a conservative state, so...

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 2, 2004, 4:09 pm

It's very simple...

The course is Biology..."The Science of Life"...not the "Let's Make Everyone Happy View of Life"...

While Darwin's view is quite assailable scientifically...and it looks like more of a punctuated equilibrium systemic approach will replace large sized bits of Darwin...There is no scientific evidence for anything resembling creationism...

Besides whose creation myth should we teach?...The christian one? Hindu? I'm particularly fond of the Dreamtime mythology from Australians...But they are all quite different and none are scientific and this is a science class we are talking about...

...

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 2, 2004, 4:29 pm

your last point is the true lethal blow to the Creationist Arb.

Their answer to that question truly reveals their goals with these political initiatives. There is no more validity to the Christian story of Adam and Eve than there is to the Hindu myth of the earth is a disk on the back of a turtle, on the back of a turtle, ad infinitem.

but again, reasoning with those who refuse to be reasonable is very difficult.

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » February 2, 2004, 4:35 pm

I think I was unclear. I don't mean to say that I think we should teach religion in school; because I certainly do not think we should. More, really, I think that evolution and big bang can be taught just like it always has, as a scientific event. When little Billy or Sally goes home to ask about where God fits in they can tell them that God made it all happen or something...

I guess it all just seems silly to me that the people that are crying foul the loudest are the people that have the least proof (or any for that matter) that they are right. Though, it is good to hear that there is a voice of reason in the Governor's office.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 2, 2004, 4:59 pm

that is why they have to cry the loudest spankes, because their position does not stand on its on merits.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 2, 2004, 5:55 pm

Even if we disprove every one of Darwin's theories, his work will still stand as a quantum leap forward in both natural science and empiricism.

OTOH, I can see the objections that the Fundies would raise, given how stupidly dogmatic a LOT of my science teachers in school were.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 3, 2004, 12:54 am

I'm sorry guys but I'm into the final year of my degree and I'm swamped. The questions you ask require a lot of effort on my part to properly answer. I don't have time to sleep, and I sadly I have little time to give you good answers.

I will say a couple of things in a hasty and inadequate response.

If I live like God tells me to, I get very positive results right down to the my core. God steps in and fills me when I'm weak. He gives me an unshakable peace, and when I do what he says, my actions are that of a caring and loving person. I just can't imagine the shell of my life without God at this time in life.

Second I'd say that if God hadn't come to me and personally made himself known I would belive as you that sometimes this whole christainity thing is irrational. My guess as to why is seems a little crazy at times is that God operates well ahead of our rational reasoning.

Fesuni,

Evil is any act done in opposition to God's choice for you. There's horrible things in this world because we started it. God respects our free will to make our own decisions, even if it leads to strife. Free will in part defines our humanity.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » February 3, 2004, 1:43 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:I'm sorry guys but I'm into the final year of my degree and I'm swamped. The questions you ask require a lot of effort on my part to properly answer. I don't have time to sleep, and I sadly I have little time to give you good answers.

I will say a couple of things in a hasty and inadequate response.

If I live like God tells me to, I get very positive results right down to the my core. God steps in and fills me when I'm weak. He gives me an unshakable peace, and when I do what he says, my actions are that of a caring and loving person. I just can't imagine the shell of my life without God at this time in life.

Second I'd say that if God hadn't come to me and personally made himself known I would belive as you that sometimes this whole christainity thing is irrational. My guess as to why is seems a little crazy at times is that God operates well ahead of our rational reasoning.

Fesuni,

Evil is any act done in opposition to God's choice for you. There's horrible things in this world because we started it. God respects our free will to make our own decisions, even if it leads to strife. Free will in part defines our humanity.

I thought god started our world? Do not presume that there are horrible things in this world because of human beings - because according to your argument, your good, your fair god is the one who controls the world and us all. And if that is true and he really does exist, he would have known better than to give humans free will when he knows/knew what it would cause. Isn't he all knowing and all powerful? I call bullshit! Because if he was, then all the stuff that has happened and all the people that have been murdered since your beloved Christ was crucified by the Romans would not have happened.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » February 3, 2004, 2:06 am

God came to you and made himself known to you? How so? I'm honestly interested in hearing about this experience of yours.

Evil is any act done in opposition to God's choice for you. There's horrible things in this world because we started it. God respects our free will to make our own decisions, even if it leads to strife. Free will in part defines our humanity.

Could you simply say that this God may just be your own consiousness. Why does god have to be considered some seperate, higher power, when all of what you consider God exists within you, it is merely your own reasoning of right and wrong?

How about this? God did not create us, we created him out of what are universally considered as "good" values. All of what we define to be God are just qualities within ourselves, which we strived to hold true even since the first "intelligent humanoid" came to be. All religions and personaly spirituality have universal themes, because the properties within each doctrine have always been considered as "good". Why does it have to be that God made these rules for us to live by. I believe it is rather that we realized our best of human values and used them to create a universal icon or "right and wrong", comonly called "God".

Anyhow, I dont think there is any magical being called God. The magic is within our own minds.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 3, 2004, 2:33 am

All that Groks is God?

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » February 3, 2004, 2:45 am

did god turn like a city into salt or some shit because they pissed him off? wasn't that just a wee bit evil ? i also would like to hear your god came to you story ... and before you start ... were you on LSD and other such drugs? do you have a mental disorder where you hear things? my grea great aunt or some shit hears the god/devil/angels and stuff talk to her ... but they says shes crazy ... or maybe they really do talk to her and were the crazy ones ...

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 3, 2004, 12:17 pm

Adex wrote:Evil is any act done in opposition to God's choice for you. There's horrible things in this world because we started it. God respects our free will to make our own decisions, even if it leads to strife. Free will in part defines our humanity.

respecting that you are tired, hehe...this sequence doesnt make sense.

you say on the one hand that God respects our free will. However if we deviate from his choice for you, we are associating with evil. Doesn't sound like much respect for free will to me!

If my wife says "You can go out with your boys"
then I go out with my boys and she gets pissed, she must have been lieing!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 3, 2004, 7:22 pm

God's prefered choice for you in any given situation is the perfect response.

Anytime you deviate from that perfect choice, you incur a negative, or not so perfect result. Sometimes if your choice is very deviated from God's preference you end up doing a lot of damage.

To use your wife analogy. It's as if she tells you, "It's not a good idea for you to go get smashed at the pub. I desire that you not do it, but you're entitled to make your own decision."

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 3, 2004, 10:14 pm

I'm going to question this as directly as possible as I really am hungry for the answer; in your opinion (or interpretation), what is God's feeling about those who do not follow Christianity? What does s/he feel about Jews or Hindus or Muslims or any number of religions that survived under the utter brutal cleansing Christians of that time forced people do "believe"?

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » February 3, 2004, 10:16 pm

So then how do you define what a "perfect responce" is in any situation. You're speaking as if everything is black and white, its not that simple. You say it as if there is good vs bad and no inbetween. Everything you do that is not perfect in God's eyes is incurred as a negative or bad/evil responce? How can you say you know what God's preferred choice is?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 4, 2004, 12:30 am

Chidoro wrote:I'm going to question this as directly as possible as I really am hungry for the answer; in your opinion (or interpretation), what is God's feeling about those who do not follow Christianity? What does s/he feel about Jews or Hindus or Muslims or any number of religions that survived under the utter brutal cleansing Christians of that time forced people do "believe"?

I think his response is sorrow. He wants desparately to be close to all of us. He wants to develop a tight relationship with us, so that when we die we can be of together in the afterlife.

Other religions God sees with sorrow as well. Satan has thrown up every possible diversion he can think of to keep you from getting close to God.

Christainity is at it's base a voluntary act. Any attempts to "force" christainity on someone is nonsensical.

Kev,

Knowing God's will for you is a daily challege. Prayer is the primary channel for clarifying it. For example, before I make a big decision I'll spend time praying about it. Afterwards I get a sense of what I need to do. Sometimes, after prayer things change around you that work you into only having one choice. Sometimes God will let you know by the council of another person. I know it's God's response because when I hear it however it arrives it strikes a resonance in me. One other thing, no answer from God will instruct you to do something sinful.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 4, 2004, 12:46 am

Adex_Xeda wrote: Other religions God sees with sorrow as well. Satan has thrown up every possible diversion he can think of to keep you from getting close to God.

I pity you in earnest...

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 4, 2004, 2:50 am

It's ok.

This kind of thing is hard to see as real from the outside looking in.

I wish I had the language skills to convey what I've experienced.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » February 4, 2004, 3:33 am

Wait, if all other religions are Satan's way of pulling false belief in salvation...isn't there a slim chance that Christianity is wrong and say...Islam is right? or any other major, long running religion.

I refuse to believe Buddhism is smoke and mirrors thrown together by satan.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 4, 2004, 4:04 am

Truant wrote:Wait, if all other religions are Satan's way of pulling false belief in salvation...isn't there a slim chance that Christianity is wrong and say...Islam is right? or any other major, long running religion.

I refuse to believe Buddhism is smoke and mirrors thrown together by satan.

Buddhism at its core isn't religion...its a philosophy...Sam woulda blown a headgasket if he knew they deified him...

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » February 4, 2004, 4:08 am

I wish I had the language skills to convey what I've experienced.

I have the language. What you've experienced is a lifetime of mental conditioning that makes Clockwork Orange seem like a Dr. Seuss book. And while everyone is subjected to some form of conditioning, most of it is usually helpful without being overwhelming. Unfortunately, your religion and most religions are not this way. They confine your mind to some fucking fantasy world, where perfection can be achieved (namely heaven in christianity) through a restrictive and often intolerant lifestyle. And you, having been taught this all your life, have no idea how to mentally escape the prison you are in, and worse, you do not want to. You are perfectly satisfied and even gleeful to live among illusions rather than reality, and with your own life you will defend these illusions. And the saddest and most pathetic part of this story is that a significant and astounding portion of the human race still believes and behaves in this fashion.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » February 4, 2004, 5:43 am

is that Mumm-ra??

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » February 4, 2004, 6:28 am

the ever-living

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » February 4, 2004, 6:31 am

!! awww yeeah

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » February 4, 2004, 6:33 am

hope this works

http://www.geocities.com/lskywalker03/

hmm couldn't link it directly... go to this site and click on the last outtake, #11.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » February 4, 2004, 8:02 am

Arborealus wrote:
Truant wrote:Wait, if all other religions are Satan's way of pulling false belief in salvation...isn't there a slim chance that Christianity is wrong and say...Islam is right? or any other major, long running religion.

I refuse to believe Buddhism is smoke and mirrors thrown together by satan.

Buddhism at its core isn't religion...its a philosophy...

I'm aware of that...but according to Jesus it's still wrong.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 4, 2004, 8:42 am

Adex_Xeda wrote: Christainity is at it's base a voluntary act. Any attempts to "force" christainity on someone is nonsensical.

With all due respect, bullshit. There's a reason Christianity is practiced in places like the Philippines, it was "forced" down their throats, ie. "Follow our Lord else suffer the consequenses!"

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, nonsensical about religious factions forcing their beliefs on others. The world map of religious beliefs is a blueprint to all of the wars throughout history that were begun in order to Force religion (Christianity included) down the loser's throats.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 4, 2004, 10:30 am

In fact the thesis that moral goodness reduces to what God approves of (or exemplifies) was decisively refuted by Plato in his dialogue Euthyphro (c.380 BC), many years before the birth of Christ. Plato sets this thesis a dilemma, asking whether what is good is approved of by God because it is good, or whether it is good because God approves of it. On the first alternative, God’s approval is mere evidence of moral goodness, and some independent account must be possible of what makes that thing good. If we take the second alternative, on the other hand, then we must be supposed to have no conception of moral goodness independent of God’s approval. In which case, if God had approved of the regular torture and sacrifice of little children, then that would have been morally good. But this conclusion is outrageous. It might be replied that God could not have approved of the torture of children, because God is good. But this is to concede the point. For it implies that we do, after all, have some conception of moral goodness that is independent of God’s approval. Otherwise we could not know that a wholly good God could not approve of such things.

From: Peter Carruthers, Animals Issue

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » February 4, 2004, 1:24 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:God's prefered choice for you in any given situation is the perfect response.

Anytime you deviate from that perfect choice, you incur a negative, or not so perfect result. Sometimes if your choice is very deviated from God's preference you end up doing a lot of damage.

To use your wife analogy. It's as if she tells you, "It's not a good idea for you to go get smashed at the pub. I desire that you not do it, but you're entitled to make your own decision."

Actually, I think its closer to this, your wife tells you, "It's not a good idea to go get smashed at the pub. I desire that you not do it, but you're entitled to make your own decision." Then, when you do it, she poors oil all over you, lights you on fire, and lets you burn to death.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 4, 2004, 1:29 pm

Chidoro wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote: Christainity is at it's base a voluntary act. Any attempts to "force" christainity on someone is nonsensical.
With all due respect, bullshit. There's a reason Christianity is practiced in places like the Philippines, it was "forced" down their throats, ie. "Follow our Lord else suffer the consequenses!"

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, nonsensical about religious factions forcing their beliefs on others. The world map of religious beliefs is a blueprint to all of the wars throughout history that were begun in order to Force religion (Christianity included) down the loser's throats.

Those people you mention were trying to force a voluntary act. It's impossible. What they did was wrong.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 4, 2004, 1:36 pm

Xyun,

Yes I could be dilusional. It's quite an dilusion. It keeps interacting with me.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 4, 2004, 1:50 pm

Sueven wrote:
In fact the thesis that moral goodness reduces to what God approves of (or exemplifies) was decisively refuted by Plato in his dialogue Euthyphro (c.380 BC), many years before the birth of Christ. Plato sets this thesis a dilemma, asking whether what is good is approved of by God because it is good, or whether it is good because God approves of it. On the first alternative, God’s approval is mere evidence of moral goodness, and some independent account must be possible of what makes that thing good. If we take the second alternative, on the other hand, then we must be supposed to have no conception of moral goodness independent of God’s approval. In which case, if God had approved of the regular torture and sacrifice of little children, then that would have been morally good. But this conclusion is outrageous. It might be replied that God could not have approved of the torture of children, because God is good. But this is to concede the point. For it implies that we do, after all, have some conception of moral goodness that is independent of God’s approval. Otherwise we could not know that a wholly good God could not approve of such things.
From: Peter Carruthers, Animals Issue

I agree that we have some conception of moral goodness that is independant of God's approval. I hold that God's morality is intertwined in the fabric of the universe the same as laws of physics. We existing in this universe have that morality rub off on us. Because of this we develop a sense that something is a litte off with the idea of raping a baby weither we know God or not.

Prayer, and close contact with God allows for a more clear understanding of what is good.

Just as a student goes to the professor to better understanding a law of physics, close contact with God allows you to have a better understanding of what is good.

Sadly such discussion is fruitless amonst a crowd that doesn't presuppose the existance of God.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » February 4, 2004, 3:28 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:
Sueven wrote:
In fact the thesis that moral goodness reduces to what God approves of (or exemplifies) was decisively refuted by Plato in his dialogue Euthyphro (c.380 BC), many years before the birth of Christ. Plato sets this thesis a dilemma, asking whether what is good is approved of by God because it is good, or whether it is good because God approves of it. On the first alternative, God’s approval is mere evidence of moral goodness, and some independent account must be possible of what makes that thing good. If we take the second alternative, on the other hand, then we must be supposed to have no conception of moral goodness independent of God’s approval. In which case, if God had approved of the regular torture and sacrifice of little children, then that would have been morally good. But this conclusion is outrageous. It might be replied that God could not have approved of the torture of children, because God is good. But this is to concede the point. For it implies that we do, after all, have some conception of moral goodness that is independent of God’s approval. Otherwise we could not know that a wholly good God could not approve of such things.
From: Peter Carruthers, Animals Issue

I agree that we have some conception of moral goodness that is independant of God's approval. I hold that God's morality is intertwined in the fabric of the universe the same as laws of physics. We existing in this universe have that morality rub off on us. Because of this we develop a sense that something is a litte off with the idea of raping a baby weither we know God or not.

Prayer, and close contact with God allows for a more clear understanding of what is good.

Just as a student goes to the professor to better understanding a law of physics, close contact with God allows you to have a better understanding of what is good.

Sadly such discussion is fruitless amonst a crowd that doesn't presuppose the existance of God.

I think you misunderstand us, or at least me....I have never said that God doesn't exist - in fact, believe it or not, I think God does exist

My qualm with Catholicism really comes down to Paul of Tarsus...how can you possibly say that Catholicism's main objective is not to go out and convert every living soul to their religion? One of your very own founding fathers set out to do just this and set the example for two thousand years of Catholics attempting to convert all those around them and brutally murdering them if they did not..

My issue is not with god - it's with your religion because I believe in God just as much as you do, but unlike you and Catholisim, I do not force my belief on others - God is -my- God, not yours and no one, especially not the Catholics will ever be able to convince me otherwise

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 4, 2004, 7:12 pm

Fesuni you know me. I'd never force someone into beliving as I do.

I do know that murdering someone because they don't pretend to be a christian is evil.

God wants people to voluntarily "choose" him to be a part of their lives. You can not "force" that on anyone, it violates free will.

BTW I'm not a Catholic. I can't speak for their particular stances on things. Heck I don't even know the specifics of their theological stances.

As far as the apostle Paul, yes it is the first duty of a christian to share with others that God is out there and that he greatly wants to form a relationship with you.
A christian's duty is to make known that God is available. It is NOT our duty to "convert" people. People don't convert. Conversion is an act in which God starts stirring up your heart personally and directly. It is a powerful, quieting, and filling experience.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 4, 2004, 7:26 pm

i am very interested in theology, comparative religions, and the neural underpinnings of the emotional states that people ascribe to "religious experience".

i think there are a lot of basic conclusions that can be drawn from that and religion, but the really interesting thing is why do we have these consuming emotional states? and what range of things can they be ascribed to? how plastic are they? what are the necessary and sufficient components of sensory and emotional states that are required to give rise to these more intense states.

it is what Neitsche was talking about when he wrote "all gods are dead....the rise of the Superman" (or somesuch).

its us. the most wondrous thing ever independently verifiably observed in the universe is the human brain.

Drolgin Steingrinder · February 4, 2004, 9:59 pm

Prof. Bok wrote:Wait, if all other religions are Satan's way of pulling false belief in salvation...isn't there a slim chance that Christianity is wrong and say...Islam is right? or any other major, long running religion.

I'm reminded of a certain Rowan Atkinson sketch....

The Devil wrote:And finally we come to...ahh, yes, the Christians. I'm afraid the Jews were right!

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 4, 2004, 11:15 pm

Truant wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Truant wrote:Wait, if all other religions are Satan's way of pulling false belief in salvation...isn't there a slim chance that Christianity is wrong and say...Islam is right? or any other major, long running religion.

I refuse to believe Buddhism is smoke and mirrors thrown together by satan.

Buddhism at its core isn't religion...its a philosophy...
I'm aware of that...but according to Jesus it's still wrong.

Yeah I think its that part in the 8 fold way that says "Satan is cool!"

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 4, 2004, 11:22 pm

Voronwë wrote:i am very interested in theology, comparative religions, and the neural underpinnings of the emotional states that people ascribe to "religious experience".

i think there are a lot of basic conclusions that can be drawn from that and religion, but the really interesting thing is why do we have these consuming emotional states? and what range of things can they be ascribed to? how plastic are they? what are the necessary and sufficient components of sensory and emotional states that are required to give rise to these more intense states.

it is what Neitsche was talking about when he wrote "all gods are dead....the rise of the Superman" (or somesuch).

its us. the most wondrous thing ever independently verifiably observed in the universe is the human brain.

Yeah we need to get that beer one of these days...I have very strong backgrounds in Psychology, Neuropsychology, Neurology, Sensation and Perception, philosophy of science, history of science, Philosophy, Comparative Religion...and Good Beer...

...though I usually have to be cajoled into good conversation when drinking...I tend to sing...especially around Danes and Newfs!

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » February 5, 2004, 12:23 am

when you make god known to someone you are basically trying to convert them ...

emmer · Post by **emmer** » February 5, 2004, 5:37 am

The scary thing about this thread is I used to sound just like you, Adex. I even spent a couple months doing missionary service in africa, trying to spread the "word". Hell, I was trained at the wycliffe bible translator center in arlington, probably near your neck of the woods...

Adex wrote:To say that our existance here is certainly based on evolutionary "facts" is similar to the goldfish who knowing nothing outside his fishtank proudly declares that he was born from the light cast by the desklamp above him.

That goldfish seems to be talking more with the blind faith of a conditioned creationist, than someone with an arguement based on actual fact... like, say, oh I don't know... evolution?

The reason you are so quick to dismiss facts is because you have none. That is why you will never reach a christian (or any fanatic) who does not want to be reached. They will revert to circular logic and blind leaps of faith before they accept something they aren't ready to accept. After all, that is the basis of religion, an attempt to ideologically philosophize something which cannot be explained.