Go Bush!

[Chmee]

Where the hell is the problem? People who bust their humps to be apart of the country and help their families at the same time is pretty noble.

I will tell you where the problem is...THEY CAME IN HERE ILLEGALLY! I don't give a rat's ass if they are busting their assess to help their families...they came in to this country illegally...and more will come...and more will be rewarded for coming in illegally.

The number coming in illegally will be greatly reduced since it will be legal to come into the country and work.

As to them coming in illegally, as I have said several times already, I don't care. And I still haven't seen anything in the way of a good logical reason why we shouldn't decide if a law should be kept or repealed based on its fairness as a law instead of claims that its repeal will be "rewarding" people who have been breaking it.

[Venti]

There are issues relative to a dramatic influx of low income "guest workers" that will come into play here that have not yet been discussed.

I don't have the time, or care to look it up but from rough memory, it takes something like 4,000 dollars a year, per student to attend the public school system. In addition to schooling, social services that are offered to low income people run in the billions here in California. (this does not take into account federal programs, just state)

Adding to what is already a seriously fucked up economic condition, I am seriously opposed to importing workers under the guise of "low wage earners are needed to take low level jobs". I dont give a fuck if Tomatoes and lettuce shoot up in price 300%, that will still be far less expensive to me personally than the taxation that will have to accompany supporting this level of immigration. Bottom line is, that these workers would only add to the tax base a very small percentage of what they would "withdraw" from services and such.

[Voronwë]

yeah they arent going to be taxed really at all because their income will be like $15-20K

[Chmee]

that was when the huddled masses were all white anglo christians.

Someone being white certainly hasn't stopped complaints historically from various anti-immigration groups. Much the same rhetoric as is being spoken today (with the possible exception of talk about giving illegals "amnesty") was used in the past by people worried about Jews, Poles, Italians and other European groups coming to this coutnry.

[Chmee]

An interesting tidbit.

http://reason.com/9511/VIPedit.shtml

Even in the nativist 1920s, however, the United States did not close its Southern border. Until 1965, there was no numerical limit on immigration from the Western Hemisphere.

Yes, you read that correctly.

The Progressives were worried about Jews, Poles, and Italians, not the century-old flow of Mexican workers to and from the Southwestern states. And there was a logic to their priorities. Arbitrary lines are even more arbitrary when they divide historically, geographically, and economi cally connected people. Saying someone can't commute from Juárez to El Paso is a lot stranger than saying someone can't migrate from Vilna to New York and enforcing the former prohibition takes a lot more firepower.

So until 30 years ago, any able-bodied Mexican worker who could pay a head tax and visa fee and pass a Spanish literacy test could legally come to the United States. Some still came illegally not everyone had the money or reading skillsbut the border was essentially open. ("Undocumented workers" in those days were potentially legal migrants who just hadn't paid the fees to get proper papers.) Ellis Island lived on in the Southwest.

When Pete Wilson draws a contrast between his by-the-book Irish grandmother and bad Mexicans running across Interstate 5, he is playing on a common ignorance of history. He's suggesting that today's illegal immigrants have the same legal options as Katie Barton but willfully flout the law. And he's hiding the history of the U.S.-Mexico border. America's Southern border has never been more closed to immigrants, legal and illegal, than it is today.

As with pretty much anything Postrel writes, the whole thing is worth a read.

[Chidoro]

I will tell you where the problem is...THEY CAME IN HERE ILLEGALLY! I don't give a rat's ass if they are busting their assess to help their families...they came in to this country illegally...and more will come...and more will be rewarded for coming in illegally.

Yes and people speed ILLEGALLY every day. Big fucking deal. Of course you don't care if they bust their asses. God forbid they try to do it the "American way" even if they popped up from under a canvas in the back of a truck. And they sould be rewarded, for working and feeding their families.

One more thing. The city I live in has a very large Mexican community. There are areas of town where no one speaks English.

Yes, that's very magnanimous of you, living with such "outlanders".

If you want to be part of this great nation then you can:

A. Come here legally

so that it only favors certain types of immigrants, not the starving, clawing for work type from south of the border or from a country that can't feed its people like India, but who cares, I was born here, I'm obviously a Chosen One!

B. Learn to speak English

You want to succeed outside of the fields, you will. DOn't mistaken first or even second generation mexicans for people who refuse to learn the language, Since their children are in US schools, they'll learn it. Whtever anglo generation of nitwits raised you did eventually so I'm sure they can.

C. Become part of the community.

People can do whatever they want to w/in reason in this country. That's why some people can plant their ass in front of a computer and play EQ for over 40 hours a week ignoring said community.

I do not want people to lose their sense of their own culture or hetitage. I simply want people to become part of our communities by integrating themselves....AFTER they come to this country legally.

We need to tighten our borders and minimize illegal immigration before we grant this sort of amnesty. THen after that we need to have a policy to impose a limit on how many people can become citizens of the USA. This goes for not only Mexican people...but for any non citizen of this country....period.

Of course, because it's devilish to want to feed a family.

Oh, and the reason American's won't take the jobs that these people have traditionally filled....is because employers know they can hire illegals and grossly underpay them....and they won't hire American workers that have rights to fair pay (minimum wage at the least) under the law. Once this law is passed and wages have to be increased since the under the table payments will no longer occur like they are presently...unemployed American's will compete with illegals for jobs that they once couldn't get.

I don't see anyone complaining about getting a deck or landscaping job put in at reasonable price or people who can get their homes cleaned or farmers getting their crops picked and shipped. Americans had the chance, they already passed up on the chance for such terrific work. The outsourcing came as a result. You plan to finance farmers a shit load more? I'm sure you would, you seem like the type of person that thinks of other before yourself .

I live in a city of 1/2 million...our entire economy revolves around the aircraft industry. We have Boeing, Raytheon, LearJet, Cessna and a multitude of other supporting industries. After 9/11 and the economy turned south...there were over 12,000 people let go from these industries. I was one of these people. I was unemployed for 7 months. I had 70 resumes and applications out on the market. I was facing foreclosure on my home and vehicle after all of my savings ran out. I would have shoveled shit for minimum wage just to earn some form of pay. I couldn't even get a job doing construction, tile and brick work, etc. because the illegal community here is employed in all of those positions.

OMG! 1/2 million people! I've never heard of such a large number, people must be piled on tope of each other because there's so many! I'm unemployed right now there genius. I take a position that's about, figuratively, shovelling shit, I'm going to have to explain that downturn. And the very fact that you have no idea what that means just further exemplifies your utter ignorance about the topic. It could undo years of gains I have made. it could put me back down the scale again. I would be at an under the table job before that. You probably weren't hired for a job that would compete against illegals because those illegals are actually a shit load better at doing construction or whatever it was your were willing to do. Doesn't matter about the scale, they'll do it better than you

So go ahead and tell me that the jobs these people will fill are jobs that Americans do not want...and I will call BS...because I almost lost everything....and would have taken one of these jobs in a heartbeat. And I was one of the lucky ones....because people I know did lose everything.

Call it whatever you want, it still occurs daily and because of the reasons I cited and not yours. I just find it funny how people really think the country would be so much better off w/out the immigrants, whether it's legal or illegal.

[Zaelath]

It's just a shame they can't export dirt farming jobs to India!

[Moonwynd]

Well Chidoro...not once did I have to resort to lambasting someone to get my point across. However since you feel the need to be such a cockjockey...I can bring myself down to your level

I take a position that's about, figuratively, shovelling shit, I'm going to have to explain that downturn. And the very fact that you have no idea what that means just further exemplifies your utter ignorance about the topic. It could undo years of gains I have made. it could put me back down the scale again.

Obviously you are a proud, proud man. Because when you have a family to feed and support you would take a job shoveling shit rather than have them go without the basic necessities in life...food...shelter. You have exemplified "your utter ignorance"...to think that your self absorbed, mindnumbingly unimportant position in the socio-economic food chain matters much when the only choice to put food on the table is to take a job that is beneath you as you see it.

So while I am shoveling shit to make sure my family eats and has a place to sleep...you can sit your ass in front of the computer and espouse your inane world views on the uncaring masses. When I get back on my feet ...IF my employer asks..."Why did you shovel shit for the last year when your field is IT?"....I will tell him that I did it to take care of my family. You can tell your next employer that you didn't work because the job was beneath you....I am sure you will gain your employers undying respect and admiration.

And don't tell me that every job they fill will be jobs that no one wants to do. My father in law held two jobs for the last 23 years. He was a full time fireman and a full time mason. Before the large influx of illegals arrived here he was doing very well as a skilled and talented mason...tile, brickwork...you name it. Then the illegal immigrants came...who are very skilled and hardworking as well in the tile field. My father in law could not compete...the illegal immigrants worked for pennies on the dollar. You think these jobs are all jobs that we wouldn't do anyhow???

For the record...I don't have to pay anyone to build a deck..mow my lawn...fix my roof...lay brick...etc...I do that myself...but don't worry...I wouldn't DARE do that if I were you...it would be beneath you and could lay waste to the amazing career you have already built up...but if you do, I promise I won't tell any of your prospective employers when they call me for a reference.

Whtever anglo generation of nitwits raised you

Next time you want to make a point...kindly leave out my family.....because I am sure the best part of you dribbled down the inside of your mommy's thigh. Now run along son and go and try to find out who your real daddy is....

Warmest regards,

Moon

[Chidoro]

Cute, I especially like the "son" angle since you haven't achieved anything remotely close to myself in the workforce and even less in the realm of mental prowess. I imagine that going from serving shit to shovelling it isn't a particularly big dip for you hence said employer wouldn't be too concerned with it.

And an employer does take past history into account you dolt. They take it into account for your potential title and your payscale. And since you're obviously a knower of all that is in the world of business (from the vast knowledge obtained from years of serving shit), I'll just chalk it up under that "Utter Ignorance" column.

So know that by February, I will be earning three times what you do. And people that get laid off in my position, don't leave empty handed, but you wouldn't know about that either since your lot is to struggle and mine is to succeed.

regards

[Kelshara]

heh so I try to read Chidoro's posts and all I see is "blah blah blah blah blah". You're an idiot, and you come across like an idiot as well. I will laugh the day you, mr high and mighty, fall down into the gutter.

[Arundel Pajo]

Hmm.

I would first like to preface my statements with the following: Living in Texas (and especially in Denton), I am around a lot of Mexicans daily - many of whom are here under the radar. The problem is not them. In my opinion you will never find a nicer, friendlier, less pretentious, more welcoming ethnic group in this state. By and large, it has been my experience that they don't give a rat's ass what color or religion you are, what your background is, or how much you make - as long as you treat them well, they will return that tenfold. That's just a basic rule of humanity, and I don't know why it seems to apply more with them, but it does.

That said, I don't see how this plan can be anything but harmful in the long term. I am not an economist, so I will not wax too much about the economics of promoting illegal work in the states. There would be money going back to Mexico, which would cause a drain on our economy. On the other hand, more money would be spent on cheaper produce and less on labor, putting money back in to the economy. Seems like we'd have a net gain, though maybe not as big as some might hope. I doubt we'd loose much in terms of jobs - they have all those jobs anyway.

What doesn't seem to be being considered, though, are some of the longer term effects of something like this - particularly the drain on our national welfare system. Here in Texas (and I'm sure in other border states as well), we have a real problem with illegals coming over the border to have babies for free at our county hospitals, and then carting them back to Mexico, where, because the child is now a US citizen, they still receive US welfare. Despite my general love of all things Mexican, I seriously can't condone this - they have their assholes just like any other population. This loss of money has no net gain of money to buffer it, either.

This is not a small problem, either - the drain that these births have on our hospital system is staggering. One OB anesthesiologist that I know, when working at JPS (our local county hospital), commented once that it had been weeks since he had performed an insured, normal, non-illegal epidural. Weeks doesn't sound like a long time, but consider the volume of child birthing that happens in hospitals.

The drain on our welfare system to pay for these children to grow up in Mexico is even more staggering. Now, I am all for some sort of welfare reform, because any system that allows itself to be taken advantage of in this way is clearly broken. It just seems like this plan to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants will make it easier for things like that to happen.

Surely there is a better way to handle this?

[Xyun]

well speaking as a legal immigrant who was once illegal, I must say this news is great. Now the rest of my brethren can migrate much more easily. We will invade your country, take your jobs, take your money, and fuck your women! hahahahhahhah there's no stopping it now! YOU SHOULD BE PARANOID!

[Zaelath]

I've seen latino women, I've seen American women. You'd come to the US for the women? I'm never drinking tequila again!!

[Arundel Pajo]

"Hey! Where're the white women at?"

</clevon little>

[Chidoro]

blah blah blah blah blah.

[Arundel Pajo]

Seems like perhaps legalizing immigrants and not sending US welfare money across borders would be great places to start.

At least in my rather simple understanding of all this.

[kyoukan]

blah blah blah blah blah.

That's all you hear too huh?

[Lohrno]

The drain on our welfare system to pay for these children to grow up in Mexico is even more staggering. Now, I am all for some sort of welfare reform, because any system that allows itself to be taken advantage of in this way is clearly broken. It just seems like this plan to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants will make it easier for things like that to happen.

Well, that's obviously a big concern, and needs to be addressed. We should address the problems, not the benefits.

-=Lohrno

[Venti]

There are issues relative to a dramatic influx of low income "guest workers" that will come into play here that have not yet been discussed.

I don't have the time, or care to look it up but from rough memory, it takes something like 4,000 dollars a year, per student to attend the public school system. In addition to schooling, social services that are offered to low income people run in the billions here in California. (this does not take into account federal programs, just state)

Adding to what is already a seriously fucked up economic condition, I am seriously opposed to importing workers under the guise of "low wage earners are needed to take low level jobs". I dont give a fuck if Tomatoes and lettuce shoot up in price 300%, that will still be far less expensive to me personally than the taxation that will have to accompany supporting this level of immigration. Bottom line is, that these workers would only add to the tax base a very small percentage of what they would "withdraw" from services and such.

Read the new budget plan from Arnie, which indicates that the per child expense for public education is budgeted at $6490.00 per year. So with that information, multiply the average number of immigrant children that would be attending school per immigrant family, and compare that to the tax base coming into the economy, and you will see the massive deficit I'm referring to.

Makes me cringe just thinking about it

[Voronwë]

this deficit will be passed on to local municipalities as well since they tend to fund the majority of their own education expenditures.

[Zaelath]

Read the new budget plan from Arnie, which indicates that the per child expense for public education is budgeted at $6490.00 per year. So with that information, multiply the average number of immigrant children that would be attending school per immigrant family, and compare that to the tax base coming into the economy, and you will see the massive deficit I'm referring to.

Makes me cringe just thinking about it

These aren't immigrants. Non-resident's children don't have any right to education in the US. What's your point?

As for people having kids in the US thereby having ninja citizens, that is an associated issue that needs to be addressed. It's partially addressed by the fact that 9 month pregnant women aren't going to be working/legal entrants, if they're in the US illegally I'm not sure of the status of their progeny. Regardless, there's nothing to stop you legislating that they are not US citizens, in the same way that children born OS must accompany their parents on their first return to the US to avoid immigrating.

[Venti]

The main topic is allowing entry of immigrants to the U.S.. As such, the introduction of cost vs. tax income generated to offset the cost is certainly related no?

Maybe where you're from there is little presence of immigration be it legal or not,but where I am, it's breaking the back of the state in a financial way that can not be ignored.

P.s. To think there is some citizenship police stopping illegal immigrant children from using the public school system would be very Naïve in my opinion.

[Zaelath]

Again, that would be a problem in a related system... I'm pretty sure if someone tried to get into college as a citizen, legal resident or not, they'd have difficulty.

Besides, it's your law that says they're citizens.. so change it.