Patch Message: 9/4/02

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » September 4, 2002, 3:25 pm

I haven't been keeping up, have they monkeyed with warriors any?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 4, 2002, 3:25 pm

Umbral Plains, DN, WW (?), Ssra Temple, Deep (?), Juggs/Reets...

Only ones I can think of.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 4, 2002, 3:29 pm

Searyx wrote:High lvl mobs?

Cazic Thule, Maiden's Eye, and... uh...

Mistmoore?

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » September 4, 2002, 3:29 pm

Cazic Thule, Maiden's Eye, and... uh...

Umbral, Velk's castle, Seb juggs/reets, Chardok (entrance to royals castle with a good group), DN rats. I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » September 4, 2002, 3:30 pm

Not at all Adex.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 4, 2002, 3:35 pm

Canelek-KOE wrote:
I noticed you got a nice new Nissan

Bingo

Damnit! Cartalas and Canelek figured it out!

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 4, 2002, 3:40 pm

Searyx wrote:High lvl mobs?

Cazic Thule, Maiden's Eye, and... uh...

What game do you play? Off the top of my head:

CT
DN
SS
ToV
ST
VT
VP
UP
Ssra
Kael
SG
Chardok
Seb
Katta(?)
ME(?)

Some listed are easier to grind exp in than others

noel · Post by **noel** » September 4, 2002, 3:43 pm

Searyx plays Max Payne.

He also rarely plays the gimp-kiting game.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » September 4, 2002, 4:33 pm

http://www.eqatlas.com/huntguidelevel.html

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » September 4, 2002, 4:48 pm

I haven't been keeping up, have they monkeyed with warriors any?

No

Trias · Post by **Trias** » September 4, 2002, 4:58 pm

i heard they tossed warriors rogues and i think monks PE this patch...unless i'm wrong P

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 4, 2002, 5:07 pm

i think it is on test, but not in the patch.

anyway, giving that to pure melee is bullshit.

Read this if you want a fairly detailed explanation of why.

i dont necessarily agree with all of his points, but it is fairly well thought out.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 4, 2002, 5:19 pm

I read that. Was disgusted. Ranking Thott as a whiner...

The day I get called (by class) as overpowered, by a FUCKING BARD, and not raise my middle fingers in reply is the day I've lost both hands.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 4, 2002, 5:36 pm

Well, he didn't call paladins overpowered as a class, he just said that they gained more power/AA point than any other class.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » September 4, 2002, 5:37 pm

why is it such a big problem if melee get PE? You don't lose PE, it's still there..

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 4, 2002, 5:45 pm

Quote

With paladin Cost for Power Gained being equal to a pure class, paladins may actually be too powerful, since their Total Power Gain is higher.

In other words, overpowered.

Having also spoken to a few rangers I know, they don't do the majority, or even half, of their DPS in spells. SK's certaintly don't. BL's, no way. Bards are the only class that can even come close to that, and that fact in mind, I am of firm belief that his post is a bitch about bards, not hybrids, in terms of AA abilities.

Read as:
Blow me, Thott.[/u]

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 4, 2002, 5:51 pm

Stragi Tt'Yoro wrote:why is it such a big problem if melee get PE? You don't lose PE, it's still there..

becausehybrids pay the same AA for less benefit than pure melee do.

PE is a way to bridge that gap

http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4308

akaran: part of the damage equation for "spells" as it relates to hybrids is the damage shield. but i only nuke if i have crack and that will be 450dam/2.5sec every 45 seconds.

i certainly think there are some flaws in his argument, and i'm not sure i buy his portrayal of paladins. I also agree with you that ambi does more or less help rangers enough, as opposed to bards/BL.

Leelee · Post by **Leelee** » September 4, 2002, 5:56 pm

ROFL!

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » September 4, 2002, 5:56 pm

I don't think that's why PE went in. It was probably more along the lines of bringing their hp and mitigation totals closer to that of warriors and none of that bunk put forth at that site.

Katria · Post by **Katria** » September 4, 2002, 5:57 pm

I rarely do a full group for exp... I'm usually only grouped with 1 or 2 other people... or I just solo

Therein lies the problem. One person dual-boxing or just plain soloing takes a camp.. another person doing the same thing takes another camp.. a zone with 15 camps can now hold 15 people - and that's assuming we're not talking about a zone where a dual-boxing person can take 2-4 camps at a time. That's not an efficient way for Verant's zones to be used, nor is it much fun for people that can't solo or dual-box who can't get a group.. because groups aren't there.. because camps aren't available.

I remember how aggrivated people would get before Kunark came out when a single necro/mage would solo a camp.. now everyone's doing it.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 4, 2002, 6:03 pm

yes, because at those camps the xp flow is a lot higher soloing.

if you can clear 5 shrooms before they repop by yourself, why cut your xp down by 400% to kill the same # of shrooms?

grouping is still better overall for xp in my experience, but you need tons of mobs to go through.

it is a potential problem w/ PoP, cause it seems like those are mostly going to be raiding zones. We need some dungeons that are worthy suitors to the ones from Kunark.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 4, 2002, 6:06 pm

I take it we are down?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 4, 2002, 6:06 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong tho, I don't think any hybrid cast DS is powerful enough not to be bounced by any other dmg shield you'd get on a raid, right?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 4, 2002, 6:09 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong tho, I don't think any hybrid cast DS is powerful enough not to be bounced by any other dmg shield you'd get on a raid, right?

absolutely, but raid buffs aren't part of this argument.

Searyx · Post by **Searyx** » September 4, 2002, 6:10 pm

Spawn times around all of Norrath need to be shortened if VI wants to stem the tide of soloers into the game.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 4, 2002, 6:14 pm

no the answer to that question searyx, is to buff the mobs.

not make more gimpy mobs. that will just make more soloers.

Searyx · Post by **Searyx** » September 4, 2002, 6:34 pm

If there are more MoBs, then the soloers will do better with a group that can take them all out.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 4, 2002, 6:38 pm

Ummmm while not a noob I am still pretty ignorant

What is PE and what effect does it have if pure melee have it?

Samila · Post by **Samila** » September 4, 2002, 6:38 pm

PE got...yeah it's live. It's interesting that people are concerned about rogues getting this. If we are tanking, our dps sucks. How is this so threatening? Monks I maybe can see an issue....maybe. I believe warriors need this badly and more. Warriors have really lost their position in this game other than being one of the tank rotation on raids (and you hopefully don't need too many of those). Maybe the xp changes shifting interest to higher end mobs over low blues will make warriors once again prefered in xp groups as the MT.

I did some xping in FG prior to the server getting dropped again. Group consisted of 60th rogue and 58th (and rising) chanter. Before the patch the rogue would get one percent every other kill and after the patch he would get one percent every third kill. Fairly large nerf imo, but still decent xps i guess.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » September 4, 2002, 6:43 pm

How does a rogue get more benefit from ND, CS, CA than a ranger does?

Samila · Post by **Samila** » September 4, 2002, 6:48 pm

Rogues don't get more benifit from PE, we get far less since we rarely tank mobs. Is it nice to have for Rogues? Sure...who wouldn't want more hps, avoidance, and mitigation? Not to mention, wtf are rogues supposed to spend aa skills on after the very short list of offensive oriented aa's.

I assume the gripe relates to ranger defensive caps making them get "less".

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 4, 2002, 6:50 pm

Samila wrote:Before the patch the rogue would get one percent every other kill and after the patch he would get one percent every third kill. Fairly large nerf imo, but still decent xps i guess.

Still stinks, not as bad as I thought it would though.

Also means I won't level until Fri or Sat rather than tonight as I was figuring

Your leveling the gnome Sam? That's got to be some sort of sacriledge<sp>

Samila · Post by **Samila** » September 4, 2002, 6:52 pm

Yes, Cenikpus is getting leveled. It's a love/hate relationship. I hate the little bugger, but then again....i WANT VOG!

Oh yeah...another thing I seemed to notice (small sample since i only killed shrooms for maybe 45 mins). The changes to the resists pretty much suck ass for doing shrooms. I used to put on a bit of disease resist gear. I normally would fight shrooms with an unbuffed 110 or so vs Disease. With this resist level, I'd rarely get effected by the shrooms various "spells". Today, I seemed to be getting raped by their spells often. Several fights I was slowed 3-4 times, turned into a shroom a couple of times, etc. Overall, very annoying. Was still able to keep a patch clear though, so I won't be crying too much =^).

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 4, 2002, 7:03 pm

well i dont think it is so much that pure melee are all of a sudden overbalanced by getting PE. but the point is do hybrids get as much of a return from AA investment as non-hybrids. if they don't , and PE is the compensation, that is the beef people have.

i'm not agreeing 100% with everything that "article" says, but i do think the fact that hybrids get less return for their AA purchases is a substantial issue. Whether or not it is 50% in some cases like Thott would say, is of course highly debateable.

regardless the returns on the offensive abilities are less for hybrids, the argument is how significant is that disparity. I don't know the answer to that. If the disparity is significant, then it is not unreasonable for hybrids
to get a perk that pure melee don't.

it reminds me a bit of the hybrid xp penalty thing.

hybrids take more xp to level cause melee don't get spells. kunark comes out, melee get mana-free spells. oh cool a year later, no hybrid penalty, little good it does you after you're already there though.

anyways, i'm really not complaining myself. i am not gonna get bent out of shape one way or another. i've got lots of aa's to buy before i would even look at PE (probably 35-40 before PE is the best thing to buy). but i think the conversation is interesting.

as to what difference rogues have v. rangers with it. none in raids, neither of us need hps THAT bad. i rarely choose BMB over SoN for example. i don't really see this as a significant ranger issue, as much as it may be for other hybrid classes.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » September 4, 2002, 8:14 pm

KS groups on raids is gonna be uber exp! /roar

noel · Post by **noel** » September 4, 2002, 8:17 pm

They let bards in KS groups?

Klydon · Post by **Klydon** » September 5, 2002, 1:31 am

Looks like the xp nerf is pretty bad in a lot of the zones that it is possible to move away from the traditional cleric-chanter-tank add 3 others type of group.

Should have raised the bar in the harder zones and left the other zones alone. SS temple is an example of a zone that had not so hot xp for the amount of effort it took to kill mobs there compared to someplace like FG, not to mention the harsher demands as to who you need in the group for it to be successful.

As soon as the zones get sorted out as to which are the "hotter" xp zones, those zones will be packed front to back. The slower zones will not get as much use as it is not worth the time to go there for the purposes of moving the AA bar. Grats VI for overstacking certain zones when they had somewhat started to spread out a bit.

On the other hand, power leveling should be insane..

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 5, 2002, 7:14 am

Klydon wrote:On the other hand, power leveling should be insane..

Heh, was dual boxing my 53 warrior in chardok last night. Her bar was really moving. Not a huge boost, but definately faster than before.

Another graphics bug popped up, once boon wore off she was nekkid except for helm and weapons until she zoned, same with the chanter when imp wore off. The 3-4 "Why is she fighting naked?" tells were funny anyway

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 5, 2002, 10:13 am

I guess no one else knows what PE is either.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » September 5, 2002, 10:23 am

Aran,

KS groups form around bards. =)

The new xp changes are stupid.

Welcome back to the perfect xp group, and sitting around waiting for the right people to log on.

Drolgin Steingrinder · September 5, 2002, 12:52 pm

PE: Physical Enhancement. This ability adds an extra level of skill to your Combat Stability, Combat Agility and Natural Durability skills.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 5, 2002, 1:30 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Aran,

KS groups form around bards. =)

The new xp changes are stupid.

Welcome back to the perfect xp group, and sitting around waiting for the right people to log on.

Fall, I love bards, but more than that, I love teasing people on this message board. Thanks for taking the bait.

I haven't had much of a chance to do an exp. grind yet, so until I do, I'll reserve judgement. Having said that, anything that makes the exp. gain slower, I'm against.

Zebedi · Post by **Zebedi** » September 5, 2002, 2:07 pm

The reason they added Physical Enhancement in the first place was to balance out the gains that hybrids got from ND/CS/CA in relation to pure melees.

Take a 3600hp warrior, get him ND3 and he's now a 3960hp warrior.
Take a 3000hp paladin, get him ND3 and he's now a 3300hp paladin.

Both before and after the AA skill, the paladin has ~83 % of the Wars hp. However the warrior gained 60hp more for the same skill cost. So they threw in PE which balances out that gain.

So now you have;
Warrior with ND3 @ 3960hp.
Pally with ND3 and PE @3360hp.

The trouble is, with 100hp all/all items, the warriors really lose out.
Give both of these guys 5 100hp items and you have;
Warrior @ 4460hp
Paladin @ 3860hp

Buff them up with full raid buffs (calling it 2k for simplicity)
Pre AA;
Warrior @5600hp
Paladin @5000hp
Post AA;
Warrior @ 6460hp
Paladin @ 5860hp

Warrior maintains his 600hp lead on the paladin throughout all of this, however, the higher the hps go, the smaller that % lead is.

Get to the highest levels where you're adding 10 100hp items and it starts looking like this on a raid.
Warrior @ 6960hp
Paladin @ 6360hp

The innate 600hp advantage the warrior has gets to be less and less of an advantage over time. Knights also mitigate damage as well as a warrior due to the ac softcap, and their ability to hold aggro absolutely blows a warriors away. So, basically the warrior is reduced to "3 minutes of glory /disc defensive" which while it was great in Vellious, kinda blows fighting a luclin boss mob that takes 30 minutes to kill.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 5, 2002, 2:15 pm

Thanks Drolgin!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 5, 2002, 2:21 pm

comparing a warrior who has earned 18 AA to a paladin who has earned 23 is a flaw in your comparison.

if they both had spent 18 AA on hp boosting, and the warrior still maintained the 600hp dif, that would be one thing.

but in this instance the paladin has spent about 30% more xp for the same gain in number of hps.

i'm not sure i agree with you that warriors should maintain their %total of hp differntial over other tanking classes. this would require exponential growth of their hps, which makes CH even more powerful than it already is.

600hps is a lot, and while it may be all taht is keeping warriors tanking right now, it is a sizeable margin. i do think there are some definite issues for warriors that need to be addressed. if this is how they "fix" warriors, it isn't going to fix anything.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 5, 2002, 2:48 pm

hang a tick.

Zebi:
The difference is 600hp regardless, that number doesn't change. The warrior is still going to be the prefered tank because of it. High HP's are High Hp's, regardless.

Voro:

comparing a warrior who has earned 18 AA to a paladin who has earned 23 is a flaw in your comparison.

if they both had spent 18 AA on hp boosting, and the warrior still maintained the 600hp dif, that would be one thing.

but in this instance the paladin has spent about 30% more xp for the same gain in number of hps

I am going to ask for clarification on this comment before I go forward. If both the paladin and warrior spend the same number of hp, the difference doesn't appear to change. If the paladin spends more aa than tthe warrior to get ND3, then yes, the paladin is going to get a bonus in it - the more aa you have, the more powerful you are, and this shouldn't effect class balancing.

[/quote]

noel · Post by **noel** » September 5, 2002, 2:57 pm

This problem really begins to manifest itself when you have a 60 warrior with average gear or low AA, and a 60 paladin with excellent gear or high AA.

Basically, the 60 warrior is now out of a job. Why is this a problem? Because it's the only job a warrior has. If he isn't the preferred tank, his position on a raid is wasted. Warriors don't do that much damage.

Don't get me wrong, I understand how important gear/AAs are, and I'm not trying to justify having shitty gear/AAs. I just don't think there should be a situation where if you have a 60 warrior and a 60 paladin, the paladin is the preferred tank. Again, tanking is really the only thing a warrior does well. Heh, and even then, sometimes only for 3 minutes.

Auerilian_Moonfrost · September 5, 2002, 3:20 pm

The stupidest thing VI ever did was give shadowknights Harmshield. Well not really, but this now expands my list of evil tricks from about 100 to about 7,000,000. Time to go to KC.....

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 5, 2002, 4:20 pm

I can't agree with that. If a paladin has worked his ASS OFF to get excellent gear and excellent AA's, he should NOT be penalized by being forced to be behind a warrior with shitty gear and no aa.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 5, 2002, 4:40 pm

Hi, that's not what I said. Or perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough.

A paladin can fill many, many roles on a raid, or in a group, whereas a warrior really only has one. The point I'm trying to make is that if any tank melee class can fill in the role of the warrior, then why have a warrior at all?

There's a great thread on fohguild.org about how some of the FoH monks are better suited for MTing than the warriors are.