Capitalism and its consequences

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Forthe
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Post by Forthe »

I'd agree blue collar workers work harder. An easy test is...
Is developing a five-year technology plan for your company easier than digging a ditch?

Is recabling a 30 year old building easier than painting a bridge?
Given the ability to do either task and given the salary for both is the same which would you choose to do given the choice with no further considerations? (btw I'd consider both tasks in the second question blue collar but left it there anyway)

Human nature picks the easiest task.

Capitalism does not neccesarily reward the harder worker because it is effected by supply and demand. I would say it usually rewards the harder worker within a field of work.
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Post by Cartalas »

Fallanthas wrote:Have you worked a blue collar job?


Have you worked a white collar job?


I've done both bub. Before you start slinging words like idiot around, it might help to garner a bit of life experience on which to base these opinions of yours.


Does capitalism favor those who get an education? Yes. Guess what? So does every other economic system on the planet.

Depends on if you think dealing drugs is White collar or Blue collar Im just going by Xyun's resume.
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Post by Xyun »

I strongly disagree that these are "exploiting" the "have nots". Credit cards, mortage and loans are services, and highly useful ones. Yes some people get in trouble with debt, but just because some people make poor decisions doesn't mean that the rest of us don't benefit from the services.
I agree. I could've used better examples.

I worked in a hotel restaurant until I went to college. In college, I worked as a front desk clerk. I've been a payroll manager, a network engineer, and now an administrator in a school system. So don't talk down to me, son.
Thanks for your resume, it plainly proves that you are a much smarter, wiser, and more experienced person than I. I apologize for harm I may have done to your ego. You are clearly my superior and I should have more respect. I understand now.

Obviously, Xyun is right and the 'have-nots' have no chance of improving their lot in the capitalistic country.
I said opportunity is decreased. Misrepresenting what I say wins you 0 points, being an idiot wins you 2 points, cuz I pity you.
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Post by Xyun »

Depends on if you think dealing drugs is White collar or Blue collar Im just going by Xyun's resume.
Dealing drugs is both. Not only do you have to get on the streets and get your hands dirty, you have to do a supply/demand analysis, test and insure quality, and hide your profits from uncle sam.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Capitalism doesn't give a fuck how hard a worker you are. It only cares about how productive you are; how much money your efforts make for your employers.

There are 30 guys in my building and we make computer games.
Computer games make decent money so we get to sit in comfy chairs in air-conditioned offices, working pretty hard when the deadlines come around. For this we get paid X.

My ex is a nurse. She works a fuckload harder than I do. She has stresses you wouldn't believe, works shifts, manages people, does heavy lifting and is in constant training to stay on top of her game. For this her and her ilk get paid 0.6 * X.

Why? It's got shit-all to do with how hardworking we are. I make money for people higher up the chain. Her work has no value that can be put into a spreadsheet. She is pure cost in financial terms (even though the work is priceless to society) and thus gets rewarded poorly.

If I could make my company £3m per year by turning up for 30 mins every wednesday afternoon in return for £1m pay per year I'd get my hands snapped off. All the other chumps would still get paid X for a 40 hour week though; working much harder, earning much less.
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Post by Fallanthas »

Well Xyun, you've been given two examples in direct opposition to your thesis.


So prove your point or go away. Pretty words on paper don't prove positions.


Tanc,

Good point, but we were more narrowly discussing someone who works hard at a given profession versus one who doesn't. Which roofer are you going to call?
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Post by masteen »

Forthe wrote:I'd agree blue collar workers work harder. An easy test is...
Is developing a five-year technology plan for your company easier than digging a ditch?

Is recabling a 30 year old building easier than painting a bridge?
Given the ability to do either task and given the salary for both is the same which would you choose to do given the choice with no further considerations? (btw I'd consider both tasks in the second question blue collar but left it there anyway)

Human nature picks the easiest task.

Capitalism does not neccesarily reward the harder worker because it is effected by supply and demand. I would say it usually rewards the harder worker within a field of work.
Human nature looks at work/reward. But the point that you are all ignoring it that any retard can paint a fucking bridge or dig a ditch. So saying "given the ability to do either, which would you pick?" is not a fair question. The guy who is capable of high-level planning has a set of skills that the bridge painter doesn't.
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Post by Xyun »

Good point, but we were more narrowly discussing someone who works hard at a given profession versus one who doesn't. Which roofer are you going to call?
That may be what you were discussing, but it was not what I was discussing.
Human nature looks at work/reward. But the point that you are all ignoring it that any retard can paint a fucking bridge or dig a ditch. So saying "given the ability to do either, which would you pick?" is not a fair question. The guy who is capable of high-level planning has a set of skills that the bridge painter doesn't.
There are painters out there that work much harder than you, do you think capitalism favors them?
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Post by Forthe »

masteen wrote:
Forthe wrote:I'd agree blue collar workers work harder. An easy test is...
Is developing a five-year technology plan for your company easier than digging a ditch?

Is recabling a 30 year old building easier than painting a bridge?
Given the ability to do either task and given the salary for both is the same which would you choose to do given the choice with no further considerations? (btw I'd consider both tasks in the second question blue collar but left it there anyway)

Human nature picks the easiest task.

Capitalism does not neccesarily reward the harder worker because it is effected by supply and demand. I would say it usually rewards the harder worker within a field of work.
Human nature looks at work/reward. But the point that you are all ignoring it that any retard can paint a fucking bridge or dig a ditch. So saying "given the ability to do either, which would you pick?" is not a fair question. The guy who is capable of high-level planning has a set of skills that the bridge painter doesn't.
Hence why I made the reward for both the same so you choose the easiest task.

I didn't miss the point.."supply and demand". If we had an oversupply of high-level planners the salary would be lower, a shortage of painters and salaries rise.
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Post by masteen »

Xyun wrote:There are painters out there that work much harder than you, do you think capitalism favors them?
Apples and oranges. I am not a painter. However, capitalism DOES favor the hard working painter over the lazy one.
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Post by Xyun »

I don't disagree. But that was not my argument.



I'm gonna quit trolling this thread and get some sleep. See you guys on the flippy.
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Post by Fallanthas »

There is that reference again.


So, categorically, manual labor is 'harder' than white collar work?
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Tanc,

Good point, but we were more narrowly discussing someone who works hard at a given profession versus one who doesn't. Which roofer are you going to call?
Easy. The cheapest :)
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Post by kyoukan »

Neroon wrote:I've always been a hard worker, I've always recieved nice raises and promotions without asking for them. I've known other hard workers with the same results.

I've also known slackers, and they never get promoted, and get cost-of-living raises if they are lucky.
That might be the case (but I doubt it), but you'll never get rich breaking your ass for somebody else.
The only time I didn't see this trend was working for the government where wages were controlled. You know, like in Socialist systems.
In my entire life I have never heard of any socialist policy that involves any form of wage control. In fact the one society where you will see the most wage control is a capitalistic one, in the form of unions who tightly control wages for workers. This is also the area where you will see the most lazy people making exactly the same amount of money people who work as hard as they can make.
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Post by kyoukan »

masteen wrote:I took Physics, Trig, American Civics ect. while working every weekend busing tables and running room service at a hotel. I saved up my cash and got into a good school. I graduated.

You are trivializing all that by saying white collar folks don't work hard.
They don't. Climb down off that cross and go work construction for awhile. You'll be begging for your wimpy brainless desk job back by friday, where you can spend all day posting messages on the internet.
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Post by Winnow »

kyoukan wrote:
masteen wrote:I took Physics, Trig, American Civics ect. while working every weekend busing tables and running room service at a hotel. I saved up my cash and got into a good school. I graduated.

You are trivializing all that by saying white collar folks don't work hard.
They don't. Climb down off that cross and go work construction for awhile. You'll be begging for your wimpy brainless desk job back by friday, where you can spend all day posting messages on the internet.
You obviously haven't seen Office Space. The guy was thrilled to get a construction job.
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Post by masteen »

kyoukan wrote:
masteen wrote:I took Physics, Trig, American Civics ect. while working every weekend busing tables and running room service at a hotel. I saved up my cash and got into a good school. I graduated.

You are trivializing all that by saying white collar folks don't work hard.
They don't. Climb down off that cross and go work construction for awhile. You'll be begging for your wimpy brainless desk job back by friday, where you can spend all day posting messages on the internet.
Fucking please. I worked hard when I was younger so I wouldn't HAVE to work in construction as an adult. Johnny Konstructikon prolly spent his HS career skipping class. Expecting me to feel sorry for people who had the same opportunities as me but failed to take advantage is ludacrist.

Why would I want to go haul timbers when I'm much more useful to my community in my present position?
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Post by Sueven »

Useful how? I'd rather you build a bridge than post messages on VeeshanVault all day.
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Post by kyoukan »

masteen wrote:Fucking please. I worked hard when I was younger so I wouldn't HAVE to work in construction as an adult. Johnny Konstructikon prolly spent his HS career skipping class. Expecting me to feel sorry for people who had the same opportunities as me but failed to take advantage is ludacrist.

Why would I want to go haul timbers when I'm much more useful to my community in my present position?
what do you do besides spam this messageboard all day, mister important to his community?
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Post by Cartalas »

kyoukan wrote:
masteen wrote:Fucking please. I worked hard when I was younger so I wouldn't HAVE to work in construction as an adult. Johnny Konstructikon prolly spent his HS career skipping class. Expecting me to feel sorry for people who had the same opportunities as me but failed to take advantage is ludacrist.

Why would I want to go haul timbers when I'm much more useful to my community in my present position?
what do you do besides spam this messageboard all day, mister important to his community?
Holy Shit!!! Pot calling Kettle come in Kettle.
Last edited by Cartalas on August 28, 2003, 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by masteen »

I work for the schoolboard. ATM, I'm setting up the driver database for the new field trip and routing software.
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Post by kyoukan »

are you really this stupid? I'm not the one ranting about how much more important my job is than some blue collar worker's. I know my job is easy for me to accomplish.

are you honestly so stupid that you fail to see that or are you just unsuccessfully trying to troll me again?
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Post by kyoukan »

masteen wrote:I work for the schoolboard. ATM, I'm setting up the driver database for the new field trip and routing software.
you think that is more important than, say, building something? you are totally deluded.
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Post by masteen »

More important? Most certainly. I'm a cog in the machine that gets the kids safely from home to school and back. I help edumacate the chillins.

p.s. Construction is a bad fucking example to keep harping on. I've seen those fuckers down six-packs for lunch and finish the day drunk, so don't tell me how tough their jobs are.
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Post by kyoukan »

yeah there were never field trips at school until somebody stepped up and pushed a bunch of names for a driver database into microsoft access. :roll:

any construction worker who was intoxicated at their job would be fired, otherwise worker's comp would shut the contracting company he or she works for down. when were you ever in a position to see a construction worker drink a six pack for lunch and finish the day off drunk? don't lie; it just makes the point you're trying to establish look even worse.
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Post by Neost »

My grandfather owned a commercial construction company. I was out in the shop sweeping and cleaning when I was nine. By the time I was 16, I was running jobs for him in the summer. If I never have to get forms ready to poor concrete again it will be too soon.

And yes, construction workers often drink beer at lunch. It depends on the job foreman mostly. I've seen them hide six packs in the water cooler so it would be cold by lunch. If the job foreman enjoys a cold one with his lunch, everyone is going to do it.

Worker's comp won't shut shit down. The inability to pay worker's comp due to a high modifier if you have an increased number of accidents MIGHT cause a place to go out of business. Worker's comp is just that. Compensation in case of an injury that keeps a worker from <gasp> working.
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Post by Sylvus »

I have to agree about the drunken construction workers. My best friend and roommate was the daytime bartender at a bar in town here, and the best money that any of the daytimers ever made was during the construction of a parking structure that lasted about a year and a half. Those guys would come in every day on their lunch breaks and get sloshed.

I'd highly doubt that type of behavior is the norm, but it does happen.
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Post by Fallanthas »

any construction worker who was intoxicated at their job would be fired


Thanks for once again demonstrating that you don't know shit.
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Post by Forthe »

This is not something that is specific to construction workers. I've seen it in many professionals also.

I'm almost convinced that it is a unwritten rule for british mechanical engineers.
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Post by Neost »

Don't mean it to sound like it is only construction workers. Hell, I drink a beer at lunch if i think I can get away with it <hiccup>.

Makes it hell typing in router acl's. That's such hard work that I can't imagine doing it after a six pack though. I'm so exhausted from the fingers up by the end of the week I have to pack my arms in ice from the elbow down. Can you imagine a ditch digger trying that?!?!?!?!
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Post by masteen »

kyoukan wrote:yeah there were never field trips at school until somebody stepped up and pushed a bunch of names for a driver database into microsoft access. :roll:
I'm reducing my office manager's workload by a third, so I'd say that's a big value add. I know I'm not inventing the wheel here, I'm just making it out of rubber instead of stone.
kyoukan wrote:any construction worker who was intoxicated at their job would be fired, otherwise worker's comp would shut the contracting company he or she works for down. when were you ever in a position to see a construction worker drink a six pack for lunch and finish the day off drunk? don't lie; it just makes the point you're trying to establish look even worse.
I went to check out a new subdivision I was thinking about buying into while it was being built. It was around noonish, and the entire crew gathered around the big cooler pounding beers. I thought it was no big deal, that they were prolly calling it a day a bit early. But then they all we back to work. Some of them even threw their beers away inside the fucking drywall.

Needless to say, I didn't buy one.
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Post by Winnow »

If someone's leaving the company or we're celebrating promotions, contracts, etc, it's pitchers of margaritas, beer, or whatever at lunch and then back to work.

You don't need to be a blue collar worker to tank up. I wouldn't recommend it though as it's hard to enjoy surfing the net in the afternoon if you feel like taking a nap after a few drinks.
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Post by Sueven »

I'm not trying to flame or be an ass here, i'm legitimately confused:

If you're reducing your office managers workload by a third, doesn't that mean that it would take three of you to make one valuable employee?
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Post by masteen »

Sueven wrote:I'm not trying to flame or be an ass here, i'm legitimately confused:

If you're reducing your office managers workload by a third, doesn't that mean that it would take three of you to make one valuable employee?
Yes, if that was all I did. It's not. I'll be done with this project in a couple weeks (barring anymore worm-induced network downtime), and then it's on to the inventory and work order system for the garage. I'm also in charge of the fuel system, accounts payable, payroll for the office staff and mechanics, which are mainly month-end intensive tasks.
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Post by Cartalas »

Masteen why do you continue to try to explain your job to these inbreds? I fyou are happy with it thats all that is important. Im sure the Dunder Posse are happy if they get their Happy Meals out in under 3 minutes.

Oh Btw all have a safe Labor day weekend im off to the lake house for a few.
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Post by Xzion »

stop trying to compare white and blue collar jobs, in different conditions each one can be harder or easyer then the other, also depending on the job
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Post by Xyun »

Im sure the Dunder Posse are happy if they get their Happy Meals out in under 3 minutes.
Just please try not to forget the french fries this time, Cart.
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Post by kyoukan »

Xyun wrote:Just please try not to forget the french fries this time, Cart.
you don't expect him to perform any job adequately do you?
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Post by Atokal »

kyoukan wrote:are you really this stupid? I'm not the one ranting about how much more important my job is than some blue collar worker's. I know my job is easy for me to accomplish.
You fucking make deposits at a bank you retard. Of course your job is easy. Now Parking seems to be a problem for you, how is that little red porsche of yours? 8)

And as to spamming the boards My god there are days when I think you work at a cloning facility and there is an army of little dipshit Kyoukans posting.
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Post by Hammerstalker PE »

The point is that both Blue Collar and White Collar jobs are equally demanding in different ways. The job I have is not physically demanding but I did construction for 2 yrs. I negotiate million dollar import deals from Asia and I am more tired mentally and physically after a day of that than I ever was pounding nails and hauling timber. Mental fatigue has a direct correlation (sp) to physical fatigue.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I know I am getting a bit off topic here, but I don't care what type of job a person has, as long as they have a strong work ethic and give 100% at what they do, then I respect them. I was going to say something else but I'll leave it at that.
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Post by kyoukan »

Atokal wrote:You fucking make deposits at a bank you retard. Of course your job is easy.
Tell me what I do for a living. I want you to reply to this and tell me what it is I do for a job. Don't make any pathetic and unfunny Atokal jokes. Post here and tell me what it is exactly I do.
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Post by Avestan »

If sitting in a cubicle typing at a computer is so easy and pays more, why don't you do it?

Reason 1: Despite what you say, you cannot actually do this.

Reason 2: You love the smell of asphalt and rating women as they walk by.

Capitalism is supply and demand. The supply of people who can dig ditches is is very high. Even if demand is high, this will never eclipse the supply.

The supply of people who can program well, understand a business plan, push a business forward instead of simply taking orders, or build a computer chip is relatively low and the demand (until recently) has always been high, thus higher wages.

Capitalism in a pure form is very bad, but we are nowhere close to a purely capitalist society. In the early 20th centery, we were closer and it caused horrible labor situations and in the end, the great depression. We have learned and adapted. For example, have you heard of social security, unions, public schools, or government research grants? All of those things (and thousands more) are based on socialist ideas. At the same time, if you do work your ass off, and you are intelligent about how you work your ass off, you have a very good chance at success in a capitalist society and that is what will drive success. Self-determination is the key to motivating a work force and I for one am very happy I do not live in a society like some in Europe which really are very close to socialist.

The other tremendous boon of a capitalist society is that it attracts talent. If I can work in Norway (for example) and get paid $80,000 a year and see $45,000 go to taxes to be spread around the country or go to the US and pay half that in taxes, I am out like Flynn. I have a good friend who is Libretarian (sp) and I actually agree with much of what he has to say, but their outlook is that you should not have to pay for other people's issues at all (foreign policy, public schools, social security, public health care, public libraries, etc) and that the only policing that should happen should occur when you endanger others (drugs should be legal, legalize suicide, etc). Just like Communism and Socialism, I agree with this approach in theory, but not in practice, and that is the problem.

A hybrid state that mixes different ideologies (Socialism, Capitalism, etc) is the only one that can thrive. If I had my way, I would always lean heavily towards Capitalism and that is why I live where I live.
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Post by kyoukan »

kyoukan wrote:Tell me what I do for a living. I want you to reply to this and tell me what it is I do for a job. Don't make any pathetic and unfunny Atokal jokes. Post here and tell me what it is exactly I do.
I didn't fucking think so.
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Skogen
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Post by Skogen »

Hammerstalker PE wrote:The point is that both Blue Collar and White Collar jobs are equally demanding in different ways. The job I have is not physically demanding but I did construction for 2 yrs. I negotiate million dollar import deals from Asia and I am more tired mentally and physically after a day of that than I ever was pounding nails and hauling timber. Mental fatigue has a direct correlation (sp) to physical fatigue.
I can attest to that. I am a mechanical engineer, and some of the days I have spent pouring over numbers, running test, collecting data & analysing said data have spent me just as much as when I laid hardwood floors in college.
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Mplor
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Post by Mplor »

Avestan's post is spot on. Capitalism is all about supply and demand. People with desired but rare skills are paid more. People with common or unwanted talents are paid less.

Because people aren't born equal, this system doesn't give everyone an equal chance to succeed. Some become relatively rich, some relatively poor. However, the system is justifiable because it is better for both the rich and the poor.

It provides personal incentive to develop valuable talents. A talented workforce becomes more efficient and more gross wealth is created from the same, finite resources. Millions of minor increases in efficiency result, over time, in an ever-growing mean standard of living.

The upper- and middle-classes benefit most from this higher standard of living. The poor - those born with common abilities or fewer opportunities to develop valuable talents - remain in poverty. However, this modern poverty seems much worse because the gap between those at the bottom and those in the middle (much less those at the top) has dramatically increased.

This perceived inequity leads to civil unrest, crime, and other economic inefficiencies. In practice, it is more efficient for a nation to appease the poor through wealth-redistribution in the form of socialist programs. This brutally pragmatic balance of raw capitalism and social benevolence is actually more efficient in practice that pure capitalism.

Pure capitalism based on ideology is as flawed as socialism based on ideology. I love Ayn Rand's social philosophy and consider it ideal, but admit that it is impractical, and that we would be worse off with pure captialism than we are now. Similarly, my sense of morality and fairness is warmed by the philosophies of collectivism, but these discard personal incentives and result in lower standards of living for rich and poor alike.

We in the West have the best system yet conceived, and I have learned to ignore anyone who associates ideology and economy.

Mippy
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Deward
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Post by Deward »

I agree with you avestan.

I code anywhere from 5-8 hours+ per day. It becomes very exhausting by the end of the day. I think mental exhaustion is way worse than any kind of physical exhaustion. Most days I go home and I feel like my brain has been fried in butter with a side of hashbrowns.

Hard work doesn't necesarily guarantee success in a Capitalist society but it definitely improves your chances in the long run. You may not be a millionaire but you could live comfortably.
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Ashur
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Post by Ashur »

I love Ayn Rand's social philosophy and consider it ideal, but admit that it is impractical, and that we would be worse off with pure captialism than we are now.
I couldn't agree more. Pure capitalism is as problematic and exploitable as pure socialism. Rand's arguments tend to be those that show people taking advantage of socialism to sponge off of others and that the hardworking person has to take care of these parasites and thus loses any incentive to work hard.

BTW, I thought I heard Atlas Shruggedwas being made into a movie. Anyone else hear this?
- Ash
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