Center mounted speedometers\gages

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Center mounted speedometers\gages

Post by Aabidano »

How distracting is having the gages mounted in the center? I was out looking at cars this weekend, the Scion Xa looked pretty decent for what the wife needs it for (very short drives around town) but the dash design looked really unfriendly. The instrument cluster is in the center of the dash and smallish. It seems that looking over there to see "stuff" on a small cluster wouldn't be the best design in the world.

Looked at a Toyota Matrix, TDI Jetta wagons and a few others as well that were in the 30+ mpg range. All had better designs, but were really more than I was looking for in a basic commuter vehicle. The occasions when it gets driven more than 3 miles at once will be the exception.
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Post by Animalor »

I've heard that it takes a few more moment to focus eyes on center-mounted gauges than the front-mounted ones.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Couple things

First the Scion is a cheap piece of shit, the interior feels it and the reliability shows it. If you think a car company can suddenly make a car for 10k less money and not cut corners on quality then you are crazed, if you are looking for a pure commuter car, gogo civic, sentra, something like that (stay honda/toyota/nissan). Don't buy cheap European, the cars are inferior and cost a small fortune to fix. If it was me, I'd wait till sept and buy the new civic line (milage gonna be approx 35/41), the redesign has nice looks, it has honda reliability and a new 5/60 powertrain starting in the 06 models. Also by % it holds more value then anything else you are gonna find, even if you drive cars into the ground, a 96 civic 3door with 246,000 miles will still trade in at a grand... no other car gonna be able to do that (was a creampuff inside, to bad the miles were so damn high). If you need to buy now, a new Civic EX (bigger VTEC engine and better milage, not to mention alloys and a moonroof) can be got for about 16k, and while I like the new styling better it will provide you with years of safe solid commuting
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Ohhh and center mounted gauges suck ass
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Post by Chidoro »

It appears she prefers the hatchback/wagon styling because of it's improved utility. I would probably go for the Matrix if I read her body style preference correctly. MPG is just OK compared to the 32/38 of the civic but it isn't a slouch. The new civic due out in a month and a half will be even gutsier yet more fuel efficient, but there are rarely deals made on new fully redesigned models and first-year redesigns tend to be a little more glitchy then subsequent years of that style's production life (even Hondas).

To be honest, she would be an excellent candidate for a prius if it the price wasn't so inflated. However, that to has a center gauge layout though and, like Pherr, I think that design sucks.
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Post by Aabidano »

Didn't look at Hondas or Nissans. The Ford Focus, Toyota Matrix, Corrolla sedan, Scion Xa, and Mazda wagons were all between $15 and $18k, comprably equipped. Hadn't heard anything bad about the Scions, figured as Toyota makes them, they couldn't be that bad.

The VW was quite a bit more at $24k, but the only diesel available until later this year when Honda and Ford are (suppsedly) introducing US models of cars sold elsewhere for years.

Even looked at the lease costs, they looked a little better in dollars per mile if you weren't going to keep it forever.

I've been looking around at 2-3 year old used cars for a while, finding what I want without an assload of miles or other issues has been difficult. Just missed an older Mercedes turbo diesel with 100k on it, that was a very nice car.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

I work for Honda now, so I know what is coming down the pipe alil more then most for them. The new Civic is going to still just be a civic, our bread and butter car, it will go at invoice all day long on the internet (that will mark a 4% increase at first release, we currently lose everything including trunk money on internet deals so this is good news!). Now the new si will be different as that thing is gonna be a sticker price is the price for abit (200 hp $20k car with great lines). But the New Civic is lookin like it's gonna sticker for 18,700 for the EX (top) and you can assume a 7% reduction to get to invoice (an additional 3% is holdback, then trunk money is incentive money usually about 3-500 under that)
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Post by nobody »

Marysville, OH?
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Nah I just sell em, easy money and compared to my old Chef hours (80 a week) 45/week seems like heaven!
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Post by Aabidano »

Pherr, have you heard anything about diesel Hondas coming to the US this year?

The wife wouldn't mind a hybrid, I'm not all that impressed after talking to owners\drivers. Up front cost is high and I've got concerns about long term maintenance costs as well. Actual mileage from the diesels is better, and all I've seen or dealt with have been very reliable. Ones that weren't made by Puegot or owned by chowderheads at any rate.

Chid hit it on the head, small wagons\hatchbacks are very versatile. And aren't minivans.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Supposively the civic is going back to a 5 door again (wagon), but that was news that hit the news one day and disappeared 2 days later. Hybrids break even point is currently around 6 years, but with the civic battery packs having 10 yr/150k mile coverage it's not rediculous to assume...


Ohhh and I am in california... diesel is a pipe dream out here
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Post by Kelshara »

Personally, I have not heard or seen anything that bad about the Scions. Way too early to tell about the long-term reliability though.

Furthermore, I'd go for a Corolla over a Civic simply because you get more or less the same reliable car for less money. Civics are incredibly reliable but also incredible expensive imo.

VW diesel is great btw. Really really good.

I would not touch a Focus here in the US with a 10-foot pole. The European one is good, they use a hell of a lot cheaper parts here in the US for it. I have that straight from a Ford person heh.

The new Civic Si looks interesting but.. seems more like e rip-off of a RSX than anything else.
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Post by Chidoro »

Kelshara wrote:The new Civic Si looks interesting but.. seems more like e rip-off of a RSX than anything else.
Actually, I think that was the idea. I believe the RSX is being dropped in the near future. Throw in the engine, change the badge, and lower the price by 3k seems like a good way to bring the civic line some notice in addition to making it more competitive than the 160 hp hatch they've been selling the last couple of years.

The Corolla is an especially attractive car from the inside. The LE can look surprisingly upscale given it's price. Compare that to the Scion's interior and it's very noticable. The fabric is crappy and the interior is noisy (you really shouldn't hear a 108 hp engine). My '81 datsun 210 I drove in college had that type of fabric, albeit with vinyl bolstering. Had just rented a Cobalt this weekend that had the same shitty material as well. It's amazing how many corners get cut to save a buck sometimes.
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Post by Kelshara »

And I completely forgot to mention: I HATE the center-mounted gauges. I'll pay a few K more just to avoid them.

HATE HATE HATE!

Well RSX looks better than the new Civic Si :p They failed!
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Post by Funkmasterr »

I just have to add that I think scions are possibly the ugliest cars on the face of the planet.
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Post by Aabidano »

Chidoro wrote:(you really shouldn't hear a 108 hp engine)
You can hear the 52 hp diesel in my 82 Rabbit pickup pretty good. Only at idle though. Being able to up shift and give a tailgater a good whiff is nice too :)

Civi LX SE doesn't look too bad, right in the same price range too. Something to look at next weekend.
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Post by Chidoro »

Kelshara wrote:Well RSX looks better than the new Civic Si :p They failed!
I've never been a coupe fan but I happen to agree. The RSX is a pretty sharp looking car for a coupe and it's certainly better looking than the new civic coupe to me as well.

The only coupes I really like outright are the recently released expensive ones; the Continental GT, the 6 series, and the CLS500. I'd have to change a few fiscal priorities to letgitimately walk out the door w/ any of those to be sure.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

You are exactly right, the RSX is disappearing from the acura line (noone goes into acura looking for a 22-24k car anymore, the integra days are over), the new si is taking it's place... 200 hp, four-wheel disc brakes with cross-drilled rotors and four-piston Brembo calipers, helical-type limited-slip differential, short throw 6 speed only, 225/40R18....it's gonna be a fun car to drive

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EDIT-and yah, pay 800 more for a civic now and down the road it's worth about it cause it has a higher residual, the two cars are a push, in most every case honda and toyota come down to so you like the toyota soft ride or the honda feel the road ride (in a good way)
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Post by Kelshara »

I'd imagine for an around the town kind of car for a female the softer ride would be preferable.

The new Civic is a huge improvement from the last one though! I might just have to go test drive it since it would be nice as a daily driver to compliment a sporty car.
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Post by nobody »

i lived in marysville a few years ago and was told by a friend that worked at the honda plant that they checked every single car coming off the line for defects as opposed to every 10th at ford. my only problem is civics look too cookie cutterish.
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Post by miir »

First the Scion is a cheap piece of shit, the interior feels it and the reliability shows it. If you think a car company can suddenly make a car for 10k less money and not cut corners on quality then you are crazed, if you are looking for a pure commuter car, gogo civic, sentra, something like that (stay honda/toyota/nissan). Don't buy cheap European, the cars are inferior and cost a small fortune to fix.
I've never known Toyotas to be 'cheap pieces of shit'.
Toyotas are reknowned for their reliability... the Scion models are no exception.
Toyota didn't just 'suddenly' start making them. They have been available in Japan for a bunch of years already.
And where the fuck do you get the 10k figure from. The base model price of the Corolla and Matrix are roughly the same as the xA... oh and it's in the same range as the Sentra and Civic.

Cheap European?
Last time I checked, Toyota was a Japanese company.


If you're selling Hondas for a living, you should probably do yourself a favor and learn a little something about your competition... you might avoid making yourself look like an ignorant fool (again).
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

miir wrote:
First the Scion is a cheap piece of shit, the interior feels it and the reliability shows it. If you think a car company can suddenly make a car for 10k less money and not cut corners on quality then you are crazed, if you are looking for a pure commuter car, gogo civic, sentra, something like that (stay honda/toyota/nissan). Don't buy cheap European, the cars are inferior and cost a small fortune to fix.
I've never known Toyotas to be 'cheap pieces of shit'.
Toyotas are reknowned for their reliability... the Scion models are no exception.
Toyota didn't just 'suddenly' start making them. They have been available in Japan for a bunch of years already.
And where the fuck do you get the 10k figure from. The base model price of the Corolla and Matrix are roughly the same as the xA... oh and it's in the same range as the Sentra and Civic.

Cheap European?
Last time I checked, Toyota was a Japanese company.


If you're selling Hondas for a living, you should probably do yourself a favor and learn a little something about your competition... you might avoid making yourself look like an ignorant fool (again).
You are cute... and funny. Go sit in a scion, it looks cheap (check the gaps, are they uniform? Check the fabric... does it feel "Ford" cheap... which means it'll be threadbare in 3 years, look at the quality, it just isn't there... sorry it isn't... I wanted a scion long before I worked for Honda, till I got in it, they suck balls sorry), 10k figure was slightly inflated, it's more like 8k compared to a Accord... and yah when you talk larger numbers you usually talk about the comperable top end cars (the tc is the closest thing to top end they make), that wasn't that hard to figure out...it really wasn't. If you think Toyota makes 2 cars of the same quality and just charges thousands less for one, then you are naive.

I know my competition, and Scion isn't competition for Honda, only for Kia. We'll worry about the well made cars that bear the Toyota emblem.

As far as the cheap european was a dig at VW, because the cheap ones like the Jetta are notorious for very large expensive electrical problems that never end, read the whole thread and you can probably keep up :)
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Post by Animalor »

I heard that the VW's that are assembled in Mexico are peices of shit, however the ones from another plant (not sure if it's in North America or Europe) don't have any of those qualiry issues.
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Post by Kelshara »

As far as the cheap european was a dig at VW, because the cheap ones like the Jetta are notorious for very large expensive electrical problems that never end, read the whole thread and you can probably keep up
Eh? The Jetta was known to have one issue and that was solved. No offense but calling VW (and in particular the Jetta actually) "cheap, European with problems that never end" does show that YOU are ignorant.

Of course, I have sat in Scions and I'd take a tC over most Hondas.
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Post by Phugg_Innay »

The wife has an 05 Golf (base base model) , the thing comes with anything an upscale has, except for the perkier motor. 6 airbags , great comfort and decent handling. All of that for a whopping $16k. We looked at Scions and Honda's and just found that for the price the Golf was the better purchase.
On a side note the 2.0litre Golf block is the same as the one in the R32 .... so potential for a serious matchbox racer is there vs the GTI's 1.8litre. So far since October she has put over 25k on this car and it runs like a top (just not zippy enough for me)
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Post by Chidoro »

Of course, I have sat in Scions and I'd take a tC over most Hondas.
I think the tC compares very favorably to the current civic coupe. However, the tC was the first scion actually designed as a scion and not a japan rebadging. The xA and xB are nowhere near the quality of the tC and the price reflects that.
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Post by Kelshara »

Yah I really like the tC.. especially with a certain Supercharger available :)

VW is constantly among the top ranked cars in Europe for a reason. They are very good cars.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Kelshara wrote:
As far as the cheap european was a dig at VW, because the cheap ones like the Jetta are notorious for very large expensive electrical problems that never end, read the whole thread and you can probably keep up
Eh? The Jetta was known to have one issue and that was solved. No offense but calling VW (and in particular the Jetta actually) "cheap, European with problems that never end" does show that YOU are ignorant.

Of course, I have sat in Scions and I'd take a tC over most Hondas.
man I guess you are right, I don't know shit... ohhh and here's a link to prove I am clueless http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/08/pf/auto ... liability/

Ohhh wait... the 3 worst cars in 04 were ALLL VW's, shit man I am pwned I guess
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Post by Aslanna »

Good to see Jaguar upholding their traditon by having some on the Least Reliable list. Guess being bought by Ford didn't help them much!
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Post by miir »

Wow, it looks like Toyotas (and Scoins) totally kick Honda's ass when it comes to reliability. :shock:

Ohhh wait... the 3 worst cars in 04 were ALLL VW's, shit man I am pwned I guess
In all fairness, AWD and Turbo/Supercharged engines are notorious for being unreliable and rather pricey to maintain...

And it looks like CNN kinda fucked up the list.
I don't think Consumer Reports would rank the VW Jetta as a 'small' car.
I also find it quite funny that the Hyundai Sonata beat the Honda Accord in reliability.
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Post by Aabidano »

Kelshara wrote:VW is constantly among the top ranked cars in Europe for a reason. They are very good cars.
Read a article in the financials the other day, they've lost an average of $2,000 per vehicle sold for the last 3 years. Honda made $2k, Toyota $1.8k, all the other non-exotic makers fell in behind that down to nearly zero for some US makers.

VWs got a nice product overall, German labor laws are killing them though. They can't legally change anything that isn't safety related without labors concurrance apprently. Which they never give unless it increases jobs, wages, etc..

The US and Canada aren't that much different in practice.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Hyundai's will be top rated cars inside 2 years, they are making the best product on the road right now for the buck... they sell them behind us here, and I sell a ton of used ones... good cars, low prices, and ultra reliable. Hyundai is rising fast. Honda and toyota rely on image as much as fact, they have been and as long as they don't do anything stupid, will continue to be perceived as the best made cars. Some of this has to do with the actrive plate thing (there are more hondas on the road currently then anything else, toyota is a close 2nd), but what that really means is they have been making good cars for years.
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Post by Kelshara »

Pherr the Dorf wrote:
Kelshara wrote:
As far as the cheap european was a dig at VW, because the cheap ones like the Jetta are notorious for very large expensive electrical problems that never end, read the whole thread and you can probably keep up
Eh? The Jetta was known to have one issue and that was solved. No offense but calling VW (and in particular the Jetta actually) "cheap, European with problems that never end" does show that YOU are ignorant.

Of course, I have sat in Scions and I'd take a tC over most Hondas.
man I guess you are right, I don't know shit... ohhh and here's a link to prove I am clueless http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/08/pf/auto ... liability/

Ohhh wait... the 3 worst cars in 04 were ALLL VW's, shit man I am pwned I guess
I read that. And if you read a bit more about it you would realize that the reason the Jetta got a low rating for the 1.8T was a very minor issue which was very quickly solved. However, since this issue (which did not imapct the driving reliability of the car at all) impacted every Jetta it lowered the car a lot. This is imo a weakness with Consumer Report's way of doing it. An error is not as serious necesarily as other errors.

As for the rest of VW.. it is quite possible they are rated lower here but I know in Europe they are rated high. I know nada about the AWD Passat though, don't think they even sell that one back home.
Read a article in the financials the other day, they've lost an average of $2,000 per vehicle sold for the last 3 years. Honda made $2k, Toyota $1.8k, all the other non-exotic makers fell in behind that down to nearly zero for some US makers.
A LARGE part of VW's loss came from the Phaeton which was a total flop. Why they even went ahead with that car is beyond me.

As for Hyundai.. I've had a chance to ride in a Tiburon quite a bit and it
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Post by nobody »

all i know is my gf drives a 04 jetta and it's a piece of shit. falling apart everywhere. one day the window won't roll down next the radio buttons don't work. lot's of little pieces just falling aprt. the engine and tranny run fine but it's doesn't matter if you're driving a trash can. from what i've seent the older vw's are great cars but as of late they seem to have cut corners.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Most people do find the jetta to be unreliable and costly to repair.

true cost of ownership at 5 years
Civic lx 22,008
Corolla S 22,067
Sentra 1.8 s 24,578
Corolla LE 22,223
jetta Gl 25,527

From the complete car cost guide, 04 model year (05 aren't complete yet)
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Post by Tenuvil »

Pherr the Dorf wrote:Most people do find the jetta to be unreliable and costly to repair.

true cost of ownership at 5 years
Civic lx 22,008
Corolla S 22,067
Sentra 1.8 s 24,578
Corolla LE 22,223
jetta Gl 25,527

From the complete car cost guide, 04 model year (05 aren't complete yet)
How's the Altima GXE compare? And, wouldn't that be 1999 model year cars if you're talking 5 year TCO as of 2004?
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Actually no, total cost of ownership is based on a buncha figures available right away, for example, residual, have to set that right away or you can't do leases (this is a figure that can be off, because of rebates and the like, Honda and toyota are not into rebates because it kills residual), maitenance (plans available, better be able to sell them), insurance etc, the only one that is debateable is repair costs, but oddly enough the formula they use is usually within 5% so apparently they know what they are doing. I am at home now so the book is 30 mins away but...
Altima 2.5 $24,971
Altima 2.5S $25,868
3.5SE $30,182
3.5 SL $33,120
3.5 SE-r $37,047
The first duty of a patriot is to question the government

Jefferson
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