Warriors Pissed

Everquest related info only here, quests, help, info, recruiting, etc.
zotha
No Stars!
Posts: 43
Joined: July 4, 2002, 5:52 am

Post by zotha »

I would like to see itemization brought in line (outside of Time thnx)
Itemization is plenty fucked in Time too. Hybrids simply get too much more out of the same items, often having not only equal hp/mana but also FT or focus effects in addition to attack (in some cases all 3). There is no longer any concept of having to sacrifice any stat for others, and its entirely possible (and not even that hard) for a hybrid to have all the focus effects they want, decent FT AND still come close (or even pass) the worn atk cap. Sony just completely bolloxed itemization all through POP, with the problems culminating in Time. At least in NTOV/VT where you were getting mana with your best-ingame hp/ac on items, they only had 0-1 effects.

Bring back some choice into picking gear for those who choose not to specialize, make the term hybrid actually mean something again.
User avatar
Fallanthas
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1525
Joined: July 17, 2002, 1:11 pm

Post by Fallanthas »

Letania,


Wrong again. Around the beginning of Luclin, bard song aggro was nerfed to hell. Before that, a bard could hold aggro simply by chain snaring or debuffing a mob.

Unfortunately, we could barely use any of the nifty AE songs they gave us in that expansion due to aggro. So song aggro was lowered.

I think they overdid it. It's kind of ridiculous that I can mez a mob, have a chanter tash it, then hold it for half a minute and watch the critter beeline for the chanter when mez breaks. Or that I can slow a mob to pull it and one arrow from a tank will peel it off of me.

Nevertheless, you cannot build aggro with bard mez, period. You cannot chain the one unresistable mez we get and frankly, rogues tank better than any bard.

I don't expect anyone to have a deep knowledge of a class they don't play regularly, but to call for nerfs on a class using outrageous shit like Jice is doing is juvenile in the extreme.

Not to mention he missed the one area where bards are TRULY overpowered right now.


Oh, and warriors do need a boost. Taunt needs to work more reliably and the all/all plate needs to go away.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

the last time i memmed Flame Lick was pulling Phenigal in CoH exploit :p

I do agree with people who are saying you can't tune classes looking principally at the end game. Which is the whole issue with this warrior complaint to begin with.

As for clasifying bards as tanking like a pal/SK, i think that is frankly bullshit. he can hold agro no problem, sure. But unless you are cranking a big rotation on him he will get pasted. also i imagine bards don't itemize with tanking specifically in mind, whereas SKs and Paladins do.

Try to offtank A Rathe Councilman with a Bard instead of a Paladin/SK and devote the same amount of resources (ie 1 cleric :p). Maybe it can be done once you've gone and farmed some time gear and come backwards in content, but that isn't my point. Of course Jice is also right, that tactically, bards are too valuable to risk in this fashion as well, which is why nobody here has probably seen that done =).
User avatar
Pahreyia
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1936
Joined: October 13, 2002, 11:30 pm
Location: Povar

Post by Pahreyia »

Aabidano wrote:
Pahreyia wrote:You're not wrong in what you're saying Falla, but in terms of context, you'll understand where Jice is coming from the closer you get to elementals.
What elemental+ folks need to keep in mind is that their guilds aren't representative of guilds in general. There are some huge power jumps as you pass NToV, Ssra, VT, etc..

At a guess most folks will never see the elemental planes (or VT even) for various reasons. Basing a class's balance based on what a small minority can do would be shortsighted, though typical.
Of course, logically, you are correct. The minority that is the elemental guilds are hardly representative of EQ as a whole. However, it's also logical to use the high end players as a basis of your modifications because of their intricate knowledge of the class, abilities to see beyond the cookie cutter playstyle that most people can and do play by for everything up to ssra/vt and the necessity of that class in certain raid encounters that speak well for similar encounters/mobs that came before.

When the hardcore players request a balance, it's usually based on more than "because my pally friend has more DPS than me." By and large, the issue of twinking is nullified at that level as well, making it easier to compare on a like-gear level when putting one class up against another for comparitive purposes.
User avatar
Mukyluk
Gets Around
Gets Around
Posts: 145
Joined: October 15, 2003, 9:03 am

Post by Mukyluk »

Of course, logically, you are correct. The minority that is the elemental guilds are hardly representative of EQ as a whole. However, it's also logical to use the high end players as a basis of your modifications because of their intricate knowledge of the class, abilities to see beyond the cookie cutter playstyle that most people can and do play by for everything up to ssra/vt and the necessity of that class in certain raid encounters that speak well for similar encounters/mobs that came before.

When the hardcore players request a balance, it's usually based on more than "because my pally friend has more DPS than me." By and large, the issue of twinking is nullified at that level as well, making it easier to compare on a like-gear level when putting one class up against another for comparitive purposes.[/quote]
=D> finnaly someone with actual insite to what it means to actually play this game not just go though the motions. $oE is acknowdeges(sp?) the imbalance in the classes.. surf the eq developers page once inawhile..
User avatar
Fallanthas
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1525
Joined: July 17, 2002, 1:11 pm

Post by Fallanthas »

Pah, I wasn't speaking just from personal experience, although I can guarantee you there isn't a bard out there that generates more song aggro than I do. The songs do what they do, and aside from some minor differences in instrument modifiers, mine do the same thing as everyone elses.


Folks seem to have the idea that


A) bards mitigate the same way other plate classes do. We don't. I can't explain what the difference is except to say at 1300 ish AC I get my ass pounded compared to either a knight or warrior at approximately the same number.

B) Bard songs generate the same aggro as the parent spells. They don't. Not even close. I can stand beside a CLERIC tanking and chain slow and the mob won't even look my way. There is only one way for a bard to generate aggro, through pure DPS. I have and probably will tank for groups in specific situations, but a bard has to roll out every damage song they can to pull it off. Relying on bard aggro is a silly-assed thing to do.

C) Brads can do everything at once. This is by far the largest pile of steaming shit I see thrown at my class on a daily basis. Bards can do one hell of a lot, but we are very much restricted in how many things we can do at once. If I am buffing resists, overhasting and doing mana regen, I have room in my twist for one more song before I hit the wall of song duration. You choose before an encounter what you are going to do, maybe keeping one or two tricks at the bottom of the bag in case everything goes to shit.

As for escape only working once every 72 minutes, I've posted on this very board that there ought to be a way to lower that.
User avatar
Jice Virago
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1644
Joined: July 4, 2002, 5:47 pm
Gender: Male
PSN ID: quyrean
Location: Orange County

Post by Jice Virago »

Time itemization is somewhat screwy, but honestly, there are 5ish items a hybrid can wear from there with FT; 4 are all/all (casters will win out in both merrit and DKP systems usually) and the other is priest usable. Basically, if you are a Hybrid and didn't do VT, your probably not going to be sporting a lot of FT even in time gear until well into the farm stage. That said, a lot of knights dont seem to care about focus effects and are willing to sacrifice a lot of casting power to imporve their tanking abilities, doing things like dumping elemental boots and arms in favor of the time drops and even dropping FT for marginal gains in AC and HP. Mana PRes, ATK, and all/all FT are abundant in time, perhaps too much so (unbuffed Knights should NEVER eclipse Warrior ATK imo), but other effects (DoT focii and DD focii for SKs, Healing and Spell Extension for Paladins, Extended Range for both) are generally confined to one all/all item in time (in most cases a Quarm drop) or perhaps one elemental item. In most guilds a Warrior is going to see all of their armor slots upgraded (BP included) before a Hybrid will obtain the kind of casting focii coverage you are discussing Zotha.

I re-assert my stance that bards can tank if given the proper gear and that top bards will have gear of this calibre no matter what level of progression they are. When the Corps was still in its farm PoG stage, we had Mitzey (level 58 at the time) tank for a run in POG, including named treants, which she did with one cleric no problem just like a knight would have. A Bard in full Velious/Ornate/Elemental is going to have the same AC and very nearly the same HP as a knight in similar gear. I know this from personal experience. And if you want to look at the top end of the spectrum, compare Thott's Magelo to some of the knights in his guild. Its merely a question of how much you want to gear them. And honestly, given their pulling and mezzing power, the good ones SHOULD be geared up in descent AC and HP gear.

And Vor, aside from the issue of using resources wisely, a bard with full Elemental and Defensive AA could easily tank a Rathe councilman with just one cleric. A bard in full Elemental + VT would certainly have more AC and HP than I did the first time I tanked a Rathe Councilman, its just you would never squander them on that kind of task.

Edit: Fall- The difference between 1300ac with no LR or ID and 1300ac with those AAs complete is astronomical. Bards may not be able to do everything at once, but the fact that even an AFK bard on autofollow with mana chorus up boosts the mana regen of 50+ people by 30% is pretty damn potent, and thats a bard being a lazy fucker.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

Dwight Eisenhower
User avatar
Fallanthas
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1525
Joined: July 17, 2002, 1:11 pm

Post by Fallanthas »

Edit: Fall- The difference between 1300ac with no LR or ID and 1300ac with those AAs complete is astronomical. Bards may not be able to do everything at once, but the fact that even an AFK bard on autofollow with mana chorus up boosts the mana regen of 50+ people by 30% is pretty damn potent, and thats a bard being a lazy fucker.
Agreed. I am still one level short of completing LR. ID isn't something I have had time for yet.


That's not the real issue though. Sure, a bard can stand and soak up damage. Still not to the level of a warrior or well-equipped knight, but it's possible. The problem is, it's very difficult for anyone else to do anything to the mob without the bard losing aggro. Was Mitzey tanking or off tanking unmezzables? I can tell you it's going to take that bard a long damn time to kill a mob on their own. Even the highest equipped bards aren't doing much more than 120 DPS in melee.

As an off tank, maybe. As a tank, your casters are gonna die.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

not a scientific study, and small sample but: 2 members in our guild (elemental for 6 months or so).

paladin and bard with roughly same amount of DKP earned and spent (closest way to approximate 'comparable' equipped objectively i guess

Paladin: AC 1460 hp 5790

Bard: AC 1503 hp: 5032

SK who is closest in DKP to those two (earned more, spent less): AC 1477 hp 6368

those numbers for all 3 are without shields equipped and unbuffed. so in any case, the bard has a big hit point gap. So even assuming a bard mitigates the same as a knight, that is a substantial difference in raw hps.

in fact comparably equipped rangers run at AC 1400, hp 5400 by way of comparison.
User avatar
Sirton
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 474
Joined: July 31, 2002, 5:20 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

hmm

Post by Sirton »

Wasnt this about warriors being really pissed :?
User avatar
Morgrym
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1215
Joined: September 10, 2002, 1:49 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Cape May, NJ

Post by Morgrym »

:lol: Yeah, and today is the day..anyone been on yet to see if the protest is in effect?
Chachi (Whisperwind) <retired>

FKA Morgrym / Skrunch (Veeshan) <retired>
User avatar
Pahreyia
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1936
Joined: October 13, 2002, 11:30 pm
Location: Povar

Post by Pahreyia »

Stand Down postponed until December 2nd in order to have an appropriately rabid mob of Warriors, Rogues and Monks when the melee changes are revealed.
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Post by Aabidano »

So they can be pissed on and pissed off?
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
User avatar
Pahreyia
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1936
Joined: October 13, 2002, 11:30 pm
Location: Povar

Post by Pahreyia »

Ba doom boom *crash*
User avatar
IeailandDokktur
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 300
Joined: September 14, 2003, 8:06 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY

Post by IeailandDokktur »

i say us rangers do a stand down for Auto Attack for Bows ! :)
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

IeailandDokktur wrote:i say us rangers do a stand down for Auto Attack for Bows ! :)
Gravis Gamepad =)
User avatar
Pahreyia
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1936
Joined: October 13, 2002, 11:30 pm
Location: Povar

Post by Pahreyia »

You can call it Rangers Against unNecessary Gamepad Exploitation and caster Nepotism.

íViva la RANGER Revoluciòn!
User avatar
Rasspotari
Gets Around
Gets Around
Posts: 227
Joined: April 2, 2003, 7:36 am

Post by Rasspotari »

uh try that poison stuff.. 75 dd plus stun .. or 55 dd plus dot.. thats good aggro.. if you proc enough of it.. u'll get aggro for suure :)
Rasspotari
Rogue
User avatar
Xanupox
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 518
Joined: July 5, 2002, 2:15 pm
Gender: Male
PSN ID: TheRealScarr
Contact:

Re: Warriors Pissed

Post by Xanupox »

I'd be pissed too!
I probably gave you virtual items once upon a time...
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Re: Warriors Pissed

Post by Siji »

And still nobody would care. :(
Post Reply