CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

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Kilmoll the Sexy
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

You realize that a short barrel AR15 with TAP rounds has less wall penetration than a handgun and buckshot from a shotgun right? You realize that the general person can hit much more reliably with a short barrel carbine than with a pistol right? Well you do now. Stop getting your gun info from movies and liberal rags and make an effort to understand how things really work.

I am not a proponent of the giant retarded magazines...except for the fact that they jam at a high rate and the morons tend to gravitate to them. The other issue is that not everyone lives in the hood. If you live alone and out in a rural area, the police can be 30 minutes away. If you have multiple idiots breaking into your place, you want whatever it takes to stop the threat right now. Pistols in general do not have the stopping power of a rifle. Again....movie bullshit aside, it can take several minutes for someone to drop from handgun wounds. Rifle rounds impart a MUCH larger force.

I am serious....don't read NRA crap, don't read CNN. Go and read the CDC findings and the FBI statistics. Actually read some ballistics info from people who do real world impartial studies.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Funkmasterr »

I'm not sure why you seem to think I'm getting my info from the NRA or whatever else. I've shot several guns at the range, some more extensively than others. Including but not limited to: AR, AK, 9mm beretta, 380, glock 9mm, off the top of my head. I'm not big on guns and don't own any myself, but it's fun to go to a range once in a while.

If someone isn't proficient enough with a pistol to at least disable someone, the last fucking thing they need is a AR.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Winnow »

Funkmasterr wrote: If someone isn't proficient enough with a pistol to at least disable someone, the last fucking thing they need is a AR.
Because it's more accurate and might hit the target? Can't "at least disable" if you can't hit.

I'd argue rifles are more defensive than pistols in the home. As for semi-auto. Seems OK to me unless you want to go backwards and start pouring gunpowder down the muzzle of a musket after each shot while your mom gets raped.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Ohhh....well you shot one guns at a range before. I will defer all facts regarding the subject to you then. It is fine if you don't want to educate yourself, but let me tell you without ANY shred of a doubt that you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Funkmasterr »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Ohhh....well you shot one guns at a range before. I will defer all facts regarding the subject to you then. It is fine if you don't want to educate yourself, but let me tell you without ANY shred of a doubt that you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about.
I never said that, just making the point that I'm not talking from the perspective of knowing nothing about guns. However if I can hit center mass with a pistol at the range, I fail to see how it would be a feat of attrition at closer range in your home. Arguing that the "general person" should own an AR15 makes you look like a moron however, and makes me question if what you're saying about your knowledge and experience is anywhere near the truth.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I am saying it and defending it because you are just completely wrong. Not only are you wrong, but you completely refuse to look up any pertinent information to see WHY you are wrong. It is typical of the ignorant masses who get all their info from CNN and movies.

Let me throw some shit at you to maybe make you understand it

1) 80% of victims of handgun wounds survive if they are able to receive medical attention.
2) The average person can function for a full 14 seconds AFTER their heart has been completely destroyed or stopped beating.
3) Handguns in general do not deliver enough energy to give true "one shot stops" unless it is able to penetrate the body and hit the spine or the cortex of the brain. In either case, you are looking at shooting a MOVING section that is roughly a 3" target.
4) Most people who die from shots from a handgun do so from blood loss. That process can take several minutes, even with multiple shots into critical organs.

Shotguns with buckshot are basically the same as shooting someone with 9 shots from a .32 caliber pistol. A shotgun with slugs is a whoooooole different story and are the most devastating thing most of us will ever actually see, but the penetration from those are ungodly.

Now, I am sure you can hit center mass standing at a range and shooting single shots. The average encounter normally lasts under 6 seconds and is less than 6 shots. I can either try and put a ton of shots into an 8" circle on a moving target with a pistol or put 1-2 shots into the same target with a rifle AND have a much higher chance of putting them down instantly with it AND end up with less chance of penetrating walls with a miss, which should I choose?

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Spang »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I can either try and put a ton of shots into an 8" circle on a moving target with a pistol or put 1-2 shots into the same target with a rifle AND have a much higher chance of putting them down instantly with it AND end up with less chance of penetrating walls with a miss, which should I choose?
Neither.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Well I will let you keep that option for yourself. I choose to defend myself.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Funkmasterr »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I am saying it and defending it because you are just completely wrong. Not only are you wrong, but you completely refuse to look up any pertinent information to see WHY you are wrong. It is typical of the ignorant masses who get all their info from CNN and movies.

Let me throw some shit at you to maybe make you understand it

1) 80% of victims of handgun wounds survive if they are able to receive medical attention.
2) The average person can function for a full 14 seconds AFTER their heart has been completely destroyed or stopped beating.
3) Handguns in general do not deliver enough energy to give true "one shot stops" unless it is able to penetrate the body and hit the spine or the cortex of the brain. In either case, you are looking at shooting a MOVING section that is roughly a 3" target.
4) Most people who die from shots from a handgun do so from blood loss. That process can take several minutes, even with multiple shots into critical organs.

Shotguns with buckshot are basically the same as shooting someone with 9 shots from a .32 caliber pistol. A shotgun with slugs is a whoooooole different story and are the most devastating thing most of us will ever actually see, but the penetration from those are ungodly.

Now, I am sure you can hit center mass standing at a range and shooting single shots. The average encounter normally lasts under 6 seconds and is less than 6 shots. I can either try and put a ton of shots into an 8" circle on a moving target with a pistol or put 1-2 shots into the same target with a rifle AND have a much higher chance of putting them down instantly with it AND end up with less chance of penetrating walls with a miss, which should I choose?
While I have no doubt your brain is only 3" wide, the average persons is a bit larger. You're also failing to mention the difference that various rounds have, but you're trying to serve your own purpose there so whatever. Secondly, you're talking like everyone that could potentially attack you is a fucking Navy Seal. You don't need to shoot to kill, and the average person isn't going to keep running at you and shooting after they've been shot, even though Call of Duty clearly has you thinking otherwise.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

You are so incredibly uninformed. I am sitting here telling you facts and you STILL are spouting the same horseshit you get from watching movies and CNN. A shot to the brain will not drop you instantly. The only place you can hit and get a reliable stop is basically right behind the mouth and not much larger. The skull does a much better job of protecting the rest than you think. Not only that, there are MANY documented instances of people taking shots into the brain and continuing to function.

Second, shooting to wound is the dumbest, most ignorant thing anyone can ever do. Again, this is not movies and people do not crumple to the ground and die instantly or pitch backwards 30 feet from a gunshot. The average person would not necessrily even KNOW they had been shot if adrenaline is pumping. The people who are drugged up never know they are shot until they bleed out. Christ man.....read some fucking words about the reality and stop using the limited bullshit you think you know as your arguments that have zero basis in facts. You sound like a fucking reporter.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

Yeah, got any attribution for those facts? Like what kind of actual "function" a person might be capable of 14 seconds after their heart is stopped by having a hole blown in their chest?

I'm aware the only instant stop is blowing away the brain stem, but some of your other factoids seem to be the same kind of "truths" that are passed around various interest groups and never actually questioned.

BTW Funk: you can destroy a lot of the brain without stopping someone, severing the brain stem doesn't necessarily kill them instantly either, it just stops the possibility of controlling their limbs.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by kyoukan »

you don't know what its like to index in high stress situations. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Zaelath wrote:Yeah, got any attribution for those facts? Like what kind of actual "function" a person might be capable of 14 seconds after their heart is stopped by having a hole blown in their chest?

I'm aware the only instant stop is blowing away the brain stem, but some of your other factoids seem to be the same kind of "truths" that are passed around various interest groups and never actually questioned.

BTW Funk: you can destroy a lot of the brain without stopping someone, severing the brain stem doesn't necessarily kill them instantly either, it just stops the possibility of controlling their limbs.

I have a video of one instance as a matter of fact. Police officer that was attacked and the dash cam has him being pummeled before someone help and he is finally able to clear his gun and shoot.

Link to story: http://m.qctimes.com/news/local/walton- ... 03286.html

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG2M7er_txc

There have been a lot of articles, interviews, and on occasion videos of shootings where people have been shot and ran or continued with an attack. There was one in particular that I have not been able to find online, but saw the interview with the officer where they shot a guy on PCP 13 times with a .357 that was still fighting after 3 minutes. That particular case he was shot through the head twice and the officer could actually see through the hole in his head. One cop died in that incident.



edit to add link to an article detailing what I have already explained about the AR and how it is a better home defense round than pistol http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/l ... e-caliber/

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

Yeah, no, I agree on the brain injury one, I was specifically asking about the seemingly very accurate "full 14 seconds" of function of ex-heart owners.

If the article is talking about "lungs and heart" I'm thinking it's not exactly a complete removal of heart function but rather a sucking chest wound that grazed the pumper.

I know you were just trying to make a "point" about stopping power, and while I think that point is a little full of shit given your proposed assault weapon solution, I'm really more interested in establishing that most of these arguments are peppered with "facts" that are little more than anecdotes.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Spang »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Well I will let you keep that option for yourself. I choose to defend myself.
How many people have you murdered in self-defense?
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Funkmasterr »

I'm well aware of people not dying immediately after being shot in most cases. I remember the first time I saw someone get shot. I was at a Nas concert at The cotton club with a friend and his brother. We left the concert, his brother was ahead of us to get the car, and as he was crossing the street someone threw a bunch of black cats out in the street to mask the sound, then shot him 3 times- 2 in the chest and once in the arm. It took him maybe ten minutes to die, but he was on the ground and not moving much, certainly not walking, right away.

While I'm well aware that this isn't how every shooting is going to play out, it's also not going to play out like kilmolls twacked out pcp junkie scenario either, and that seems to be what he's basing his entire argument off of.

Keep thinking I'm basing my stance off what I've seen in action movies though, doesn't bother me any.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Fairweather Pure »

I hate to dog pile you so hard Killmoll, but goddamn you make it so easy.

You seem to have this thought stuck in your head that everyone is ignorant to gun facts and violence due to Hollywood and video games. I touched on this earlier with my comment about gun nuts and the NRA itself having to evoke childish situations in order to justify their obsession with guns. You yourself have created a scenario in this thread to justify owning an assault rifle that is basically:

1. A male breaks into your home
2. This man is armed
3. This man's sole reason for entering is to murder/rape/kidnap you or your loved ones
4. You need a gun for your 6 second encounter where you obviously shoot first and ask questions later
5. Since this man will not die immediately when shot with a pistol he will spend the last 14 seconds of his life trying to complete the objective in #3 above
6. You require an assault rifle so that you and other gun masters can kill the guy dead in a single shot

It's an absolutely, fucking ridiculous scenario straight out of a terrified white dude's worst fever dreams. Being a master of statistics, how often does the above scenario play out?

I would guess that most home invaders are stupid burglars who are unarmed, have zero gun training, and flee when discovered. Cock a shotgun and they'll run for the hills, not start to index due to the high stress situation they just landed in.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

You are living in a fantasy world if you think the sound of a shotgun will stop everyone. Will it in cases where they expect no one to be there? Sure.

As to your 6 step plan, you are picking and choosing statements to make your argument. As I said before...and I will separate this out so maybe you will read it:

in a BEST case scenario where you have to shoot someone, you can hit them in the heart. At that point they have roughly 14 seconds where they still have enough oxygen in their brain to do as they choose. Some might choose to lay down and die right there. Some can continue acting on whatever bad intention they have.

Now what you completely ignored is that the odds are fairly good that you are NOT going to hit the heart. That would give that someone several minutes to do what they want.


I am done here with you all. If you want to read shit on your own I will provide you with material....most of which is fairly non-slanted. I wanted real info when I went looking for all this and not slanted from NRA. This is info I give people who come to me for training and I take it very seriously that I give them facts.



As to your "how many times does this play out" question, I think you would be completely shocked. The estimated self defense firearm use is 160,000 a year. I have a link somewhere to a site that pulls self defense gun use articles that made the newspaper.....trust me when I say you will be reading for a loooooooooooooooooong time if you intend to see them all.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

Going to have to go ahead and feel pretty vindicated for at least the next 14 seconds.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by kyoukan »

wait, people actually come to you for training on how to be a loud-mouthed internet poser? how much do you charge?

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

I found a video source for delayed brain death, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvReN-poqDY 17:30 mark
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

By the way, I see a big trend in NRA literature to compare the horror of living in Australia or the United Kingdom where we don't have the "freedom" y'all do to arm yourselves and protect ourselves from violent crime. Let's look at that:

Intentional Homicide Rate by Country

Code: Select all

Country			Rate	Count
United States		4.2	12,996
United Kingdom		1.2	722
Australia		1.0	229
To be honest, I feel a lot more than 4 times safer here than the US and we seem to manage that without guns.

Then there's this:

List of countries by traffic-related death rate

Code: Select all

Country              Rate    Count
United States      12.3    33,808
Australia             5.71    1,291
United Kingdom    3.59    2,222
So, I have to assume Kilmoll drives everywhere in a tank, given the time and effort he expends to protect himself from a much less likely cause of death.

If you really want to protect your family, my advice would be to migrate. Just about anywhere in the "western" world is safer.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by miir »

Canada's homicide rate is only 1.6 which makes the pro-gun argument seem even more ridiculous.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

I'm not going to take sides here, but I was having a similar argument with my cousin last night. Ours was a bit different...as I was telling him I preferred COD BLOPS 2 hardcore mode to regular because it was more realistic. One shot of an assault rifle above te waist instantly drops anyone.

He is a gun freak (not in a bad way) and disagreed. He had some bookmarks on his computer, and I'll ask him or the links later, but the 14 second death from a heart shot is right. The only reason people actually fall from non-immobilizing gunshots is conditioning. Most people are conditioned to fall to the ground if shot, because they believe that is what is suppose to happen. It has been shown that if a person is informed, and knows there is absolutely no reason they should, that they can overcome that conditioning and continue on, even in cases of extreme, fatal wounds.

Of course, I am willing to bet that most people would flip out, and not be very dangerous for the last 14 seconds if they actually realized they had been shot in the heart.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Finally someone who looked into it and got it! :shock:

Two sides to that Ash....with our military, they are forced to use full metal jacket rounds which tend to pierce straight through in a lot of cases. The optimal shot is one that would expend all of the its energy inside the body and not exit or would basically just fall to the ground once it penetrated all the way through. The rifle rounds have a huge advantage in energy over handgun, but the military rounds do not really take advantage of that fully. The rounds that civilians can use for defense here use that technology to make sure the bullet begins fragmenting and not just go straight through the body.

Even with the FMJ, you can get those instant stops, which a lot of people believe occur from the hydrostatic shock compressing the spine and dropping people like the movies depict. It is just not something you can rely on at all.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Finally someone who looked into it and got it! :shock:
You mean someone who heard the same factoid from the same kind of source?

On that basis I have conclusive proof a guy can walk on water.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Well since you will not believe anyone, why don't you go ask someone like an MD or heart specialist and get the info from them. Or use an arrow and put it through a deer's heart and watch it run away. They are not conditioned to drop.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

What I hear is: I have no proof of God, I have faith. Look at the way the wind moves the trees, you don't have to see it to know it's there.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Keverian FireCry »

Stop arguing with him, you small-minded fools! Clearly he's better versed in the arts of mortal combat than all on this board combined and his gigantic penis dwarfs all of your own!

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I showed you a fucking video of a guy getting shot IN THE HEART, complete with him disengaging and running to the street where he then died ON THE VIDEO. That was also linked to the article where it told you that he was shot in the heart. Getting a lung shot will not kill you in 30 seconds. Christ you are just remarkably stupid.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Lynks »

All I see is a guy getting shot then not being able to do much but to stumble away and fall to the ground.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by kyoukan »

if he could index under high stress situations, he would have shot back.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by miir »

:lol:
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Funkmasterr »

miir wrote::lol:

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Winnow »

kyoukan wrote:if he could index under high stress situations, he would have shot back.
Sounds like you talking about neutrinos although he hasn't been proven a babbling idiot, believing some second rate quacks that rented time at a grown up science facility, so incompetent they couldn't even tighten cables. Did you know cold fusion was discovered as well? Need the source?

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Funkmasterr »

Well at least you added something worthwhile to the conversation. Oh wait, no you didn't. Again.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I showed you a fucking video of a guy getting shot IN THE HEART, complete with him disengaging and running to the street where he then died ON THE VIDEO. That was also linked to the article where it told you that he was shot in the heart. Getting a lung shot will not kill you in 30 seconds. Christ you are just remarkably stupid.
He was dead in way less than 30 seconds, are you confusing the initial failed tasering with the 2 shots in rapid succession? And yeah, I don't see a lot of "functioning" after those shots, and this was hardly a guy "conditioned" to go down easily given the taser seemed to have almost no effect.

Thought I'd check on the TAP rounds claim too, interestingly this test doesn't show your results:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html
Although Hornady's website shows impressive fragmentation in ballistic gel, this same behavior was notably absent from the bullets in drywall. All three rounds tested drilled neat holes through every single wall. Either the polymer tip is clearly intended to aid external ballistics more than terminal ballistics, or its performance in drywall isn't representative of its behavior in moister media. The latter is most likely the case, given the published gel results.
I'm starting to think you're deliberately misleading, or you just read articles and advertorials and believe things at face value.

I assume critical thinking isn't a component of indexing.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Ooooookkkkk. Lets break this down once more.

Guy was on top of the cop when he was shot in the heart. He got up off of him and walked to the middle of the street and laid down. If you fail to see that this person was capable of action, then there is nothing more to say here.

As to your link, did you READ the article? The test shows the 60 grain TAP rounds doing exactly what I said they would. The 55 grain TAP was not performing...and it makes me wonder if something was wrong withthem as I have seen video of them blowing up by people that are not the Hornady company.

If you continue reading, the chart at the end confirms exactly what I said about penetration from handguns vs .223, as does the author who states that people clearing houses would rather use the M4 carbine instead of handgun.


It is rather obvious that you will not believe anything that does not go with your preconceived view.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

Let's just go back to where I joined this line of argument.
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:You realize that a short barrel AR15 with TAP rounds has less wall penetration than a handgun and buckshot from a shotgun right? You realize that the general person can hit much more reliably with a short barrel carbine than with a pistol right? Well you do now. Stop getting your gun info from movies and liberal rags and make an effort to understand how things really work.
I'm not that impressed that the 60 grain TAP rounds split into 2 pieces before entering the unseen target behind 2 sheets of dry wall and then fragment in their bodies. The 55 grain seem to operate even less well. One assumes they don't have the momentum to drive the tip into the case to fragment them properly into shrapnel over the short distance they're in dry wall as opposed to the result in ballistics gel.

You are correct in that what you said was the TAP rounds have "less" wall penetration, but you know, I'm not sure how much less dead that makes collateral targets.

As to "general person", I wouldn't have been more than 10 when I went to the shooting range with my father and managed to hit targets at 20/25 yards with a 38 revolver and a 22 target pistol with enough instruction to avoid shooting myself. Though, I'm not sure what your point here is at all; general people don't have guns so they tend to be shitty shots.
I am not a proponent of the giant retarded magazines...except for the fact that they jam at a high rate and the morons tend to gravitate to them. The other issue is that not everyone lives in the hood. If you live alone and out in a rural area, the police can be 30 minutes away. If you have multiple idiots breaking into your place, you want whatever it takes to stop the threat right now. Pistols in general do not have the stopping power of a rifle. Again....movie bullshit aside, it can take several minutes for someone to drop from handgun wounds. Rifle rounds impart a MUCH larger force.
Again, rural areas are not targets of opportunity. Are you a massive douchebag in RL as well that encourages people to take long drives into the country with multiple friends to break into your house?

All the farmers in Australia have weapons of some description, but they're for foxes, kangaroos, and maybe snakes. I find it amusing as hell that you rail against "movie bullshit" but have the rabid paranoia of a schizophrenic that watches Saw to relax.
I am serious....don't read NRA crap, don't read CNN. Go and read the CDC findings and the FBI statistics. Actually read some ballistics info from people who do real world impartial studies.
Findings and stats on what? Non-existent studies on time to die after being shot in the heart and the danger of people that are able to stagger a few steps and lay down in that interval? Realistically the reflex action of getting off someone that shot you with the amount of adrenaline he had in his system before the shot isn't that impressive.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Aslanna »

Not sure how all that is relevant...

Anyway, I do not support a 100% ban. "gun control" as a concept I could maybe support but people need to define what that means to them.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Zaelath wrote:Let's just go back to where I joined this line of argument.
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:You realize that a short barrel AR15 with TAP rounds has less wall penetration than a handgun and buckshot from a shotgun right? You realize that the general person can hit much more reliably with a short barrel carbine than with a pistol right? Well you do now. Stop getting your gun info from movies and liberal rags and make an effort to understand how things really work.
I'm not that impressed that the 60 grain TAP rounds split into 2 pieces before entering the unseen target behind 2 sheets of dry wall and then fragment in their bodies. The 55 grain seem to operate even less well. One assumes they don't have the momentum to drive the tip into the case to fragment them properly into shrapnel over the short distance they're in dry wall as opposed to the result in ballistics gel.

You are correct in that what you said was the TAP rounds have "less" wall penetration, but you know, I'm not sure how much less dead that makes collateral targets.

As to "general person", I wouldn't have been more than 10 when I went to the shooting range with my father and managed to hit targets at 20/25 yards with a 38 revolver and a 22 target pistol with enough instruction to avoid shooting myself. Though, I'm not sure what your point here is at all; general people don't have guns so they tend to be shitty shots.
I am not a proponent of the giant retarded magazines...except for the fact that they jam at a high rate and the morons tend to gravitate to them. The other issue is that not everyone lives in the hood. If you live alone and out in a rural area, the police can be 30 minutes away. If you have multiple idiots breaking into your place, you want whatever it takes to stop the threat right now. Pistols in general do not have the stopping power of a rifle. Again....movie bullshit aside, it can take several minutes for someone to drop from handgun wounds. Rifle rounds impart a MUCH larger force.
Again, rural areas are not targets of opportunity. Are you a massive douchebag in RL as well that encourages people to take long drives into the country with multiple friends to break into your house?

All the farmers in Australia have weapons of some description, but they're for foxes, kangaroos, and maybe snakes. I find it amusing as hell that you rail against "movie bullshit" but have the rabid paranoia of a schizophrenic that watches Saw to relax.
I am serious....don't read NRA crap, don't read CNN. Go and read the CDC findings and the FBI statistics. Actually read some ballistics info from people who do real world impartial studies.
Findings and stats on what? Non-existent studies on time to die after being shot in the heart and the danger of people that are able to stagger a few steps and lay down in that interval? Realistically the reflex action of getting off someone that shot you with the amount of adrenaline he had in his system before the shot isn't that impressive.

I will quote what made me state that the AR 15 actually is a personal defense weapon:
Assault rifles aren't personal defense weapons you delusional twat. If you're going to argue, take your own advice and pull your head out of the sand. And by sand, I mean your ass.
And you quoted my exact statement about that with TAP rounds penetrating less than handgun and shotgun....which your own link also said. So you do admit that those rifle rounds have less penetration than handgun and shotgun. As to why those 55 grains did not start tumbling and breaking up, well that had me baffled, so I looked deeper into it. What I found is that the link you used was a copy from another website that was copied. The bullets he used were not TAP, but were actually 55 grain Hornady A-Max which is not the same thing even though it has a polymer tip. In every study I have ever seen, the lighter the bullet the faster it fragments. That is why the 40 grain bullets blew apart so quick (those are varmint hunting rounds).

I am also wondering why you think that no one targets anyone in rural areas? They get hit quite often since there is a hell of a lot slower police response.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Zaelath »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: And you quoted my exact statement about that with TAP rounds penetrating less than handgun and shotgun....which your own link also said. So you do admit that those rifle rounds have less penetration than handgun and shotgun. As to why those 55 grains did not start tumbling and breaking up, well that had me baffled, so I looked deeper into it. What I found is that the link you used was a copy from another website that was copied. The bullets he used were not TAP, but were actually 55 grain Hornady A-Max which is not the same thing even though it has a polymer tip. In every study I have ever seen, the lighter the bullet the faster it fragments. That is why the 40 grain bullets blew apart so quick (those are varmint hunting rounds).

I am also wondering why you think that no one targets anyone in rural areas? They get hit quite often since there is a hell of a lot slower police response.
A-Max is about the only round they don't sell in 55 grain.. there's even mention in the (republished, so what?) article that it can't be A-Max... Anyway, yeah, less penetration. But not enough less for it to be significant when it passes into your body. So how is it beneficial?

Funnily enough I'm pretty sure all those rounds would be illegal here apart from for LEOs (you can get rat shot, but that's not a frag round).

As to targeting in rural areas, that's admittedly just my experience. My parents have lived in a rural town for their entire lifetime and I've never heard of anyone being subject to a home invasion. I'm also really thinking of "farms" when you're talking about 30 minute drives for the cops to get there. I'm sure there's plenty of "rural" crime in the statistics that is just the local retards beating each other for lack of other entertainment, sure was around the folk's place growing up.

As far as my experience of robbery, they're way more interested in robbing people who aren't home and the haul in Canberra is a lot higher per home than rural areas and you can hit dozens in an afternoon or spend all day driving around farms that are protected by rifle 16+ hours a day and swarming with dogs...

Anyway, I think the original argument was some kind of defense of a requirement for assault rifles for home defense, and you I could maybe be swayed on arming yourself for home defense, after you've install movement sensor flood lights, alarm systems that sense perimeter breaches with the occupants home, and preferably a panic room. I think at the very least you should be sure there's an attacker before you open up with an AR15...
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Jice Virago »

Anyone doing a ton of target shooting is going to be MUCH better off with a lever action or semi automatic hunting rifle than anything in the assualt rifle class, anyhow. I know I would rather have a scoped .30-06 than an AR15, when I was target shooting regularly. They also are much more easily maintainted and legally obtained. There is no fucking reason on earth, outside of actual collectors (read, not rednecks with small penises claiming to be collectors at gunshows) to have anything in the Assault rifle catagory. The only reason they sell so well lately is fear of President Darky taking them away from the white man.

Untrained or infrequent shooters should have, at most, a 12 guage shotgun for home defense, if they feel it is merrited. If you really feel you need a handgun, a simple 9mm semi auto is fine, if you have a clean record. No civilian needs to be able to punch body armor. Any criminal packing body armor is likely armed with something that would make any kind of firefight undesirable anyhow. Even when I was shooting fairly regularly, I felt no urge to have a handgun, though. A shotgun is all the home defense anyone should ever have and even then the owner damn well better have a clean record, both criminal and psychiatric.

There is just no cause for the bullshit Killmol is arguing. I am all for people being able to have home defense, but people who talk like he does are just looking for trouble, like that asshole in Florida or that old fuck who blasted two black guys in the back in Texas and claimed castle doctorine. Maybe it would not stop all of the nutjob killings, but it sure as fuck would limit the damage these evil fuckers could accomplish if they did not have access to such high rate of fire weapons (and so many of them).
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

That is YOUR personal preference. Once you have worked with an AR, the ergonomics and simplicity of the design make it very easy to use. It is a 100% modular design, so I can get parts from another rifle or buy parts that I know will fit and be perfect. I can also pick up another one and be completely familiar with it, because each is identical.

Your lever action uses handgun rounds, which as I have already been through a bunch above, will penetrate walls in a manner that the AR never thought possible. It will be even worse from a lever action as the velocities from the rifle are MUCH higher than from any handgun. You just stick to that liberals know what is best for everyone else approach there sparky.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:You just stick to that liberals know what is best for everyone else approach there sparky.
Amen! Liberal fucktards won't even let me have an RPG. Who the fuck are they to say? Just because someone else might use it to kill dozens of people at once doesn't mean I should be deprived of having one if I want. Why punish everyone just because a few nut jobs would use their RPG for something bad? That isn't what George Washington wanted when he invented the USA.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Jice Virago »

So what are you shooting at that requires you to punch through walls and field strip your gun with parts from all the other unnessecary assault rifles out there? And are you seriously claiming that an Assault Rifle is easier to use (or even in the same range of accuracy) as a typical hunting rifle, let alone shotgun? How many people on this board do you think know how to clear a jam on an assault rifle (let alone properly maintain one), exactly? This might be a standard childhood bonding experience for you and your dad at Ron Paul Militia Middle School, but the vast majority of retards buying these weapons would struggle to properly load a breach in a 12 guage and you want them to have access to drums and 30+ round clips?

And for the record, I have personally fired all of the weapons we discussed, including an assault rifle, so I am not just pulling this information out of my ass or (in your case) NRA talking points. I have friends just as nutty as you are (Bubba Grizz can testify to this) who have the ARs and until I moved to Cali, I owned a couple of rifles and shotguns that I used to target shoot with. You have all the classic markers of a right wing gun worshiping nutjob and are exactly the sort of person who should be getting psyche screened, because at some point you are going to snap and invade Canada to stop President Darkie from surrendering all of our guns to the french. That may be a dramatic exhaguration on my part, but its not much of one.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

See, I know that you are a dumbass because after this entire thread and all of the posts back and forth between me and Zaeleth, you STILL have no reading comprehension strong enough to understand that the AR has LESS "wall punching capabilities" than any fucking firearm you just mentioned as being superior.

Now that you have proven to be a complete moron, let me break this down for you:

This is not call of duty. Quick scoping does not exist in real life. Trying to acquire a moving target with a scope in the dark is NOT something I would have any kind of confidence in. A shotgun can work, but again refer to my "you are dumbass" section above for wall penetration, followed by my "buckshot is not a magic destroyer" speech.

Second, the fact that YOU and other dumbasses do not know how to use them properly means absolutely nothing about the competency of people who DO know how. You claim people would have an issue clearing a problem with an AR, but let me ask you this: how many do you think would know how to clear a problem with a hunting rifle? I bet half this board would not even be able to find or know that there was a safety on their hunting rifle. that is not exclusive to any group. Half of the arguments I get into are with people who "own guns" that are providing mountains of misinformation to people because they THINK they know what the fuck they are talking about.

Yes, being taught gun safety by my dad WAS a bonding experience and should be done by every father to their kids. If everyone DID teach their kids about gun safety, maybe they would grow up respecting what a firearm can do to ruin lives....but then that would also entail fathers actually being PART of their kid's lives.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Fairweather Pure wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:You just stick to that liberals know what is best for everyone else approach there sparky.
Amen! Liberal fucktards won't even let me have an RPG. Who the fuck are they to say? Just because someone else might use it to kill dozens of people at once doesn't mean I should be deprived of having one if I want. Why punish everyone just because a few nut jobs would use their RPG for something bad? That isn't what George Washington wanted when he invented the USA.

I can already buy an RPG just by purchasing a $200 tax stamp. Don't want one for the same reason I do not want a full auto anything.

Oh wait....you didn't know that already? Again, not very surprising with the lack of education you all have on firearms and related items.

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Funkmasterr »

Wait, you're still talking?

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Re: CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Post by Spang »

Well at least you added something worthwhile to the conversation. Oh wait, no you didn't. Again.
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