Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Boogahz »

right!
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

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That's the kind of thing you're running with WG?
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Spang »

Aslanna wrote:"Patriot groups" lol wtf does that even mean?
This:
Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the “New World Order,” engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing, or advocate or adhere to extreme antigovernment doctrines. Antigovernment groups do not necessarily advocate or engage in violence or other criminal activities, though some have. Many warn of impending government violence or the need to prepare for a coming revolution. Many antigovernment groups are not racist.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Spang »

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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Sylvus »

The NYC one wasn't a mass shooting; the guy fired 6 bullets, and 5 of them hit his intended victim in the head.

All those other injuries came from the cops' bullets. You know, people with lots of training in the use of firearms. The model, really, for why all citizens should carry guns, thereby preventing gun violence... :roll:
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Aslanna »

"Domestic terrorist".. Back in my day we called them Postal workers.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Sylvus wrote:The NYC one wasn't a mass shooting; the guy fired 6 bullets, and 5 of them hit his intended victim in the head.

All those other injuries came from the cops' bullets. You know, people with lots of training in the use of firearms. The model, really, for why all citizens should carry guns, thereby preventing gun violence... :roll:

yea.....using cops as your model for people with training is asinine. NYPD is required (similarly to most departments) to shoot 200 rounds per year to qualify with a handgun. TWO HUNDRED! Some military training estimates show that it takes 2000+ rounds just to get muscle memory to set. Add to this the fact that their "training" consists of shooting at stationary targets and they shoot from a rested position. Several decades worth of studies pf NYPD shootings have shown that their department's hit rate is somewhere around 18%. Figure that the average encounter for an officer is less than 10 feet and that shows you how abysmal their training and skills are.

Now lets take an average civilian that trains moderately. I would probably fall under that category these days. During normal months, I would shoot 500ish rounds a month. A solid portion of that is doing some simple drills or a move and shoot scenario. I have also done some of the IDPA shoots where they have multiple stages at 21 feet, 35 feet, and 50 feet. Those stages have scenarios that change and include "good guy" targets that can be blocking "bad guy" targets. My hit rates on the events I have shot are well over 80%. I don't think I have ever hit a good guy target.

My point is this....most people who shoot are going to be so far above the average police officer's skill level with a firearm that it would make more sense to take away the police guns.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

what a load of shit
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

most experts say 87% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Maybe you would like to provide facts to back up your lack of knowledge google queen? never mind, I will refute whatever horseshit you will spew at a future time right now.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf




btw....reports said that the officers were 8 feet away from the suspect.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

cool, stats from 1981 are awesome.

you wannabe cowboy yankee faggots crack me up. talking about accuracy of law enforcement in firefights while bragging about how many paper targets you shoot at in the same paragraph. typical tough talking cowardice. I can pretty much guarantee you that the only person you are impressing is yourself. if someone pulled a gun on you, you would probably shit in your pants and faint, even if you had fucking uzi in your hand.

but its cool I bet you are a crack shot at a paper cut out of a cartoon guy wearing a burglar mask at eight feet. not like those sissy NYPD.
Last edited by kyoukan on August 27, 2012, 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Spang »

Sylvus wrote:The NYC one wasn't a mass shooting; the guy fired 6 bullets, and 5 of them hit his intended victim in the head.
The comic strip predates the NYC shooting.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Spang »

Also, the NYPD isn't trained to shoot white people, which explains why they shot so many black people.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

kyoukan wrote:cool, stats from 1981 are awesome.

you wannabe cowboy yankee faggots crack me up. talking about accuracy of law enforcement in firefights while bragging about how many paper targets you shoot at in the same paragraph. typical tough talking cowardice. I can pretty much guarantee you that the only person you are impressing is yourself. if someone pulled a gun on you, you would probably shit in your pants and faint, even if you had fucking uzi in your hand.

but its cool I bet you are a crack shot at a paper cut out of a cartoon guy wearing a burglar mask at eight feet. not like those sissy NYPD.


I see you have posted your factual rebuttal, as usual. Have a great day!
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Spang wrote:Also, the NYPD isn't trained to shoot white people, which explains why they shot so many black people.

it is no coincidence that the paper targets are all white backgrounds, but the target itself is black
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:


I see you have posted your factual rebuttal, as usual. Have a great day!
are you un-ironically trying to pull that shit with me? because that is fucking hilarious.

do you really think I give a fuck what the law enforcement's accuracy is in firefights vs. you shooting at cartoon muggers at a shooting range? you honestly think withdrawing some statistic from three decades ago makes you look any less of a retard? I'm sorry your vagina is still throbbing from the last time I took you to town over your stupid made up shit, but give me a break. maybe you can blow off some steam at the range tonight shooting at some "perps"
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

another great argument.....although I don't think anyone is clear exactly what you are trying to prove or disprove. Bravo on the personal attacks in lieu of any relevant information though....
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

holy shit. you actually think that linking some statistic from 1981 to prove how inaccurate the NYPD is vs. "real shooters" like you is actually giving you some kind of moral high ground? that's awesome. look at how sanctimonious you are acting. it's adorable.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

you can't be this stupid IRL? That paper is from statistics through 2002 and is pretty clear about it. Maybe you can use the googles to translate it for you?
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Jice Virago »

I hate to do it, but Killmol is probably more on the money, at least as it pertains to the average gun owning midwestern native vs the average urban law enforcement officer. The average cop is just not expected to have to discharge their firearms any significant amount. This is purely anecdotal, but I rescently went to the range with some cop pals of mine out here who are both prison guard/patrol guys. Now, I had not picked up, let alone fired, a weapon since moving out here from Wisconsin, but after a few sight in shots I was considerably more accurate than these guys and was amazed at this, so I asked them about it and it turns out that they simply do not engage in much in the way of target shooting. To hear them talk about it, unless someone is part of a SWAT type unit or came from a military background, chances are they don't even bother with it, beyond what they have to. This kind of minimal training and the fact that the state level governments prefer to use the force as more of a goon squad rather than actual preventative law enforcement is why you end up with shit like this and idiots like that jackass who peppersprayed those kids. Like out military, law enforcement is now drawing people in for the wrong reasons.

But thats another topic.....
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Zaelath »

Or to put it another way, how many cops are aiming to hit their target and exactly how accurate do you think service pistols are anyway?

Blah blah 4 inch grouping blah blah.

Grouping doesn't require re-aiming, it's a nailed down pistol. There's a reason target pistols are twice as long as a Glock 19 and it's not just so there's more rifling in the barrel.

500 rounds a month isn't exactly casual either, that's $120 a month in ammo alone. If I'm spending $120 a month on anything that's not a casual committment.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_police_officers_are_employed_in_the_United_states wrote:There are as of 2006, 683,396 full time state, city, university and college, metropolitan and non-metropolitan county, and other law enforcement officers in the United States. There are approx. 120,000 full time law enforcement personnel working for the federal government adding up to a total number of 800,000 law enforcement personnel in the U.S.
So your "casual" ammo expenditure for the US law enforcement would be around $1,152 Million/year. That's just for the ammo.. not the facilities or the time to do it or the wear and tear. You have to be talking 10 times that amount in total, so around $10 Billion/year. Aren't you Mr Small Government?

I'd also be intensely curious to see your performance when someone who is clearly willing to kill random strangers is firing at you. I know you think your balls are bigger than your brains, but it's amazing how fast that equation can reverse.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

At least the two of you took the time to make thoughtful and reasoned posts. For that I thank you.
Or to put it another way, how many cops are aiming to hit their target and exactly how accurate do you think service pistols are anyway?

Blah blah 4 inch grouping blah blah.
Well I shoot one of their service pistols extensively. The 3 most common pistols currently for police departments are Glock, S&W's M&P, and Springfield XD. The guns themselves will hold groups under 2" inside of 25 yards. Now inside of 15 feet, there is just absolutely zero reason for someone who is supposedly trained to use a firearm "to serve and protect" to not be able to score accurate hits on a single individual that is not moving. I saw the video...that guy moved a total of 2 feet before he went down. The cops were both inside of 15 feet. There is just no reason at all to miss at that range. I say again....I am pretty average among people who shoot and I can put you cash money down that says I can walk to the range with no warmup and put 16 of 16 on a man sized target in under 5 seconds if I am inside of 15 feet.

So your "casual" ammo expenditure for the US law enforcement would be around $1,152 Million/year. That's just for the ammo.. not the facilities or the time to do it or the wear and tear. You have to be talking 10 times that amount in total, so around $10 Billion/year. Aren't you Mr Small Government?
The departments have facilities. They just fail to use them. Now even with the big discount they would be getting for bulk buys and for police dept, etc....I could see your numbers being accurate at the $1-2 million a year mark. I would rather see them use that money for training rather than what they will end up paying in lawsuits because their training sucks.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Jice Virago »

Plus most older departments have facilities for reloading/recycling ammo. It is still costly to maintain marksmenship training, but a lot less for an established police department than it would be for a private citizen.

Regarding defenting yourself with a gun in a firefight, no one knows how they will react until they have been in that situation. Even heavily trained military men and woman are an unknown until the first time they come under fire. What is known is that people who maintain their composure and take careful measured shots with their weapon tend to prevail in these sorts of confrontations. Someone who fires their weapon often enough that it becomes second nature is far more likely to keep their wits and sight in their shots, but the nut job who spent weeks prepairing and shooting probably has more of an edge. That dyed hair fucktard in colorado was not particularly trained or focused, for example. He really only killed people with the shotgun at close range, which requires little in the way of skill compared to a rifled firearm, and he was not even under the threat of enemy fire. The guy who fired seven rounds and had 6 hit the mark obviously spent more time at the range. I don't know where Killmol would fall in this spectrum, but if he is like the average midwesterner who owns a gun he likely would be able to defend himself against the former, but not nessecarily the latter.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Winnow »

Jice Virago wrote: I don't know where Killmol would fall in this spectrum, but if he is like the average midwesterner who owns a gun he likely would be able to defend himself against the former, but not nessecarily the latter.

I don't know about the midwest but Arizona is squared away:
Arizona Has Turned into a Gun Lover's Paradise -- and That's Why It Ranks Among the Highest in Gun Deaths

Arizona is a mecca for gun-lovers, but having lots of heavily armed citizens running around has made it a more dangerous place to live.

January 12, 2011 |

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik calls Arizona “an ultra-right, ultra-conservative state” that has been “victimized by the gun lobby.” He said legislators in Phoenix “don’t seem capable of doing anything reasonable when it comes to weapons in this state,” and that the political climate in the Grand Canyon state is pushing the law in the direction of “letting everybody in this state carry weapons under any circumstances that they want."

As a result, Arizona provides ample evidence that the presence of a large number of untrained but heavily armed citizens running around doesn't make anyone safer. The state ranks dead last in gun controls , according to the Legal Community Against Violence (LCAV), a group that advocates for tighter gun laws. Arizona doesn't require background checks for private gun sales; it doesn't prohibit assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, high capacity magazines; it doesn't impose a waiting period or limit the number of guns that can be acquired in a single purchase, and it doesn't regulate “junk guns” – cheap and often unsafe “Saturday Night Specials.” Last year, the state passed a law allowing individuals to carry concealed firearms in public without a license or permit.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Chidoro »

How's Chi-town holding up there WG?

Any more self-hatred you want to share w/ us all?
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Jice Virago wrote:Plus most older departments have facilities for reloading/recycling ammo. It is still costly to maintain marksmenship training, but a lot less for an established police department than it would be for a private citizen.

Regarding defenting yourself with a gun in a firefight, no one knows how they will react until they have been in that situation. Even heavily trained military men and woman are an unknown until the first time they come under fire. What is known is that people who maintain their composure and take careful measured shots with their weapon tend to prevail in these sorts of confrontations. Someone who fires their weapon often enough that it becomes second nature is far more likely to keep their wits and sight in their shots, but the nut job who spent weeks prepairing and shooting probably has more of an edge. That dyed hair fucktard in colorado was not particularly trained or focused, for example. He really only killed people with the shotgun at close range, which requires little in the way of skill compared to a rifled firearm, and he was not even under the threat of enemy fire. The guy who fired seven rounds and had 6 hit the mark obviously spent more time at the range. I don't know where Killmol would fall in this spectrum, but if he is like the average midwesterner who owns a gun he likely would be able to defend himself against the former, but not nessecarily the latter.
In all honesty you can't truly defend yourself against either version. Most of what you can control is your ability to hit the target. If the homicidal nut is intent on killing at all costs, then you are in trouble no matter what your level of training. In your first case, that shitbag would have folded as soon as someone presented resistance. That is really true of a big majority of the active shooter situations. They take their own life as soon as armed resistance is encountered.

In your second example, he was truly only focused on killing one person and when he finished that job he wanted to leave. Incidentally, he did not hit either officer. Again, that difference in having an unarmed victim that he could do with as he pleased, versus armed officers is most likely a big factor.

If it is an encounter with someone with a weapon, you have to realize going in that there is a very high likelihood you will be shot. The key to winning that encounter is to finish the fight even if you are hit. 80% of all shooting victims survive their wounds if they are able to receive medical attention in a timely manner. It is important to know that and make sure you finish the fight...even if you do not survive it. Not sure in all honesty how many people are willing to understand and accomplish that...and I am including all the CCW holders out there.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

because 22% of all "real" shooters are either killed or grievously wounded by their paper targets.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

It kills you when you have absolutely zero real input on something doesn't it? Why don't you google something up real quick to make you look smarter? If you like, I will start throwing out charts and graphs and shit to show you why things happen the way they do. I get paid to know this stuff you dimwit.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Sylvus »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Now lets take an average civilian that trains moderately.
And herein lies the disconnect between your love of guns and my distaste for them. If the "average" civilian gun owner trained as "moderately" as you suggest, I would concede that the possibility existed that guns could make the world a safer place. Do you believe (or have reasonably credible numbers) that the average gun owner trains anywhere near that much, or even any more than the average law enforcement officer? I would bet that they don't. Yes, there's going to be a group of enthusiasts like yourself that spend thousands of dollars a year on training, but that's certainly not the norm.

That's why, when I see facebook pictures of a pistol poking out of the back of a waistband with text along the lines of "Maybe if more people had one of these, this never would have happened" in reference to the Colorado movie theater shooting, and I consider that it was dark, the guy had body armor on, and he surprised a room full of unsuspecting movie goers by throwing tear gas in there, my visceral reaction is "you (the general you, not kilmoll specifically) are totally full of shit." Much like this incident in NYC, guns in that Colorado theater would have probably resulted in more injuries or fatalities. That's just my speculation, you might feel differently, and neither of us will ever know who is right. The only thing I know for a fact is that if there were no guns at all in the Colorado movie theater, the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, or in front of the Empire State building, there would have been quite a few fewer deaths and injuries in those encounters.

And here is the part where you'll say that if we outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns. Or that I'm disregarding the Second Amendment. Or something about how the horse is already out of the barn, so we might as well shoot at it with more guns. And you're probably right, there are too many guns on the street already for new gun control measures to completely eliminate the threat of gun violence. The real solution would also involve better education, better mental health screening (read: better healthcare), and other things that you'd be opposed to because they would raise your taxes. And I can understand why you'd be opposed to that, where would you ever find a couple grand extra per year in your budget... :P
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Well I break from the normal NRA gun toting heathen in that I agree with you about most of that. There is quite simply no way at all to remove guns from the U.S. You know they actually have 3d printers out now that are capable of making a a functional firearm out of paper that can actually shoot at least one accurate shot? It is completely out of the equation to eliminate them...and seeing gun controlled places still having mass shootings only enforces that. Our society has much larger underlying issues as the causes for violence and passing laws to eliminate firearms is not the solution to that.
The real solution would also involve better education, better mental health screening (read: better healthcare), and other things that you'd be opposed to because they would raise your taxes.
Breaking that down further....

1) Mental health screening so far has been useless. They already passed a law requiring states to disclose information regarding mental health. The states have simply not even come close to complying. The second part of that is getting the mental health professionals to actually disclose information on people who they think are dangerous. The Colorado shooter was a major example of that. this is something that has to happen and it has to happen soon.

As a sidenote to that, I simply cannot see a justification to them requiring a mental health screening prior to owning a firearm. Should you be required to have a mental health screening prior to exercising your 1st Amendment rights? Or for that matter to drive a vehicle? There are laws on the books right now that prevent people with mental health issues from purchasing a firearm. Those laws need to be stringently enforced.

2) Again I agree 100% on education. When I was in school they actually had someone come into elementary schools and educate us on firearm safety. Where is that today? I also would favor concealed carry being removed from the states and made as a federal program that required actual training with mandated scores for passing the shooting portions. In Ohio, most of the program is useless bullshit for the required portions. I go way above and try to introduce more than what anyone has probably ever done on the range in their life. My personal thought is a 10 hour course with about 2-3 hours of practical information and coverage of laws and the use of deadly force, followed by 7 hours of practical through tactical shooting.

I would also mandate law enforcement to be able to achieve the same standard as the CCW licensees for ability to shoot. There literally should be zero differences between abilities for anyone who carries a firearm on the street.


If the "average" civilian gun owner trained as "moderately" as you suggest, I would concede that the possibility existed that guns could make the world a safer place. Do you believe (or have reasonably credible numbers) that the average gun owner trains anywhere near that much, or even any more than the average law enforcement officer? I would bet that they don't.
There is a difference here and your qualifier unfairly tilts the answer to the direction you want. The average gun owner....I have very serious doubts would train even moderately. The average CCW holder who actually CARRIES it consistently...yes I would say they train more than the average police officer. Again, with what I do I get to hear from and talk to a LOT of both types of CCW people. Those who get it just to have it...and those who get it for actual protection. Those who get the license for the latter I would trust much more to be taking a shot that might save my life over any random cop. Let me qualify that to discount SWAT and some other specialists...
The only thing I know for a fact is that if there were no guns at all in the Colorado movie theater, the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, or in front of the Empire State building, there would have been quite a few fewer deaths and injuries in those encounters.
Let me modify your statement with this and see if you agree....

The only thing I know for a fact is that if there were no unstable violent people in the Colorado movie theater, the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, or in front of the Empire State building, there would have been quite a few fewer deaths and injuries in those encounters
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Jice Virago »

My experiences mirror Killmols. I actually got my first gun safety training in 6th grade in Wisconsin at a public school. Until I graduated high school, I went and target shot an average of once or twice a month, generally firing off about in the range of 200-400 rounds on days I did this. And I was far from unique, as pretty much all of my friends did the same. Mind you we were not the redneck retard brigade of our class, either, but all honors students and heavy extracurricular activities guys (I was a music nerd at the time). Your average rural midwesterner actually gets pretty profficient at gun handling, or at least did back in my day. Its not the same as the stupid red neck with his giant penis extension on a gun rack in the back of his pickup, we actually respected our guns and learned to fire and maintain them.

I am not advocating someone in that Colorado theatre having concealed carry, but in that particular situation an experienced hangun owner would have likely made a positive difference. The operative word being experienced. Most situations additional guns on the scene can only make it worse, though, including guns in the hands of law enforcement at times. Mental screening is no good because sociopaths can beat those tests and most of the time no one listens when a red flag is raised, anyhow. Really, the best option is to require gun safety training for anything concealable, if not all firearms, but the guns first paranoid militia darkie haters will never accept that.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Sylvus »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Should you be required to have a mental health screening prior to exercising your 1st Amendment rights?
The 2nd Amendment does include the phrase "well-regulated". While I'm sure those semantics have been parsed over and over throughout the years and we might disagree as to their meaning, it certainly reads differently than "arm everyone".
Let me modify your statement with this and see if you agree....

The only thing I know for a fact is that if there were no unstable violent people in the Colorado movie theater, the Sikh temple in Wisconsin, or in front of the Empire State building, there would have been quite a few fewer deaths and injuries in those encounters
Well, if there were no unstable, violent people in any of those scenarios, there would have been 0 deaths or injuries... I'd put it like this:
Status quo (a non-zero number of guns + unstable, violent people): quite a few deaths and fatalities
No guns + unstable, violent people: quite a few less deaths/injuries
No unstable, violent people: 0 deaths/injuries

Which do we, as human beings, have more control over: whatever causes one to become an unstable, violent person, or the tools that facilitate an unstable, violent person doing the most amount of damage in the shortest period of time?

I guess I'm just a pragmatic idealist.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Boogahz »

don't forget that it couldn't have happened if theaters did not exist...
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Bubba Grizz »

All the time in the arcade helps too.

I'm not sure how many here can relate to this or not but getting shot at by someone who really truly wants to kill you, is a very scarey thing. I don't care of they are good shots are bad shots. That kind of fear can dibilitate a normal untrained person and still freak the shit out of those who have been trained.

Carry on.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Zaelath »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: The departments have facilities. They just fail to use them. Now even with the big discount they would be getting for bulk buys and for police dept, etc....I could see your numbers being accurate at the $1-2 million a year mark. I would rather see them use that money for training rather than what they will end up paying in lawsuits because their training sucks.
While I also appreciate you responding in a measured fashion, I think your hand-waving away 3 orders of magnitude of the expenses needs a bit more explanation.

800,000 "officers"

$120 for 500 rounds/month

1.152 Billion Dollars

In order to get that to 1-2 Million Dollars you need savings of 1000 fold. There's only 2 variables, so you need to reduce both by 100x or one by 1000x or some combination between.

Are you saying LEOs can get 500 rounds for $12, and that there's only really 80,000 officers in the US? I dunno, they both sound sketchy to me... to make either of them a smaller number so you can make the other larger sounds even worse. Can you elucidate?
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

As Jice said above, a lot of the departments use reloading as a HUGE cost savings. I do know that where I live, they have someone who reloads for their training. Part of the pricing you quote are retail prices that anyone can go and buy. Wholesale is much cheaper, reloading is a much bigger savings, and reloading with parts bought at wholesale is HUGE savings.

I recognize that not every department could use reloads and that IF they were to shoot that many rounds a month that the prices would be higher for the country than $1.5 mil. As it stand now, the course of fire is so easy that I am certain that a solid 80% of the people that take my class could pass the peace officer shooting qualifications....and that is not a comforting thought after seeing some in action.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Winnow »

Could always just rent a lasertag facility once a month or paintball.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

The could literally do something similar to that that is cheaper and more realistic. They can use simunition or even airsoft replicas that are basically 100% identical in feel and weight to the real thing for force on force training. The only thing those do not simulate is doing a reload of the firearm, which is actually not going to take place in most encounters anyway.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Jice Virago »

Some facilities are using laser tag equipment, actually. Others use siezed amunition after its done being used for evidence for their range shooting, though this is very rare. The actual ammunition costs for your typical rural or municipal police department is actually pretty low compared to what a civilian would have to shell out for similar activity, for most of the reasons Killmol touched on. Personally, I would rather see some military budget cut back to improve the general marksmenship of domestic law enforcement, but thats not going to happen.

As it stands, the guys who actually care about their job put in the extra time and effort to keep up their skills, pretty much like any other career out there. The average patrol officer, however, is probably not much better (if at all) a shot than your typical firearm owner. One area that has improved is the expanded use of non lethals, but a lot of the asshole cops out there have abused that shit so that got cut back somewhat. Two centuries in and the most common law enforcement tool is still the basic sidearm because some redneck fucktards tased a bunch of people they should not have.

Anyhow, my view on gun control is that fully automatic military grade weapons and anything with a magazine capacity over a dozen should be strictly banned for civilian use. I am fine with concealed carry if someone passes a reasonable training program and people should be able to have any form of semi automatic or single shot rifle/shotgun firearms they wish, as long as they do not drag them into public venues. Banning body armor for anyone who is not a trained security professional would probably curb some of these assholes, too.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Jice Virago wrote: Anyhow, my view on gun control is that fully automatic military grade weapons and anything with a magazine capacity over a dozen should be strictly banned for civilian use. I am fine with concealed carry if someone passes a reasonable training program and people should be able to have any form of semi automatic or single shot rifle/shotgun firearms they wish, as long as they do not drag them into public venues. Banning body armor for anyone who is not a trained security professional would probably curb some of these assholes, too.
I mostly agree with you even on these pieces above....probably for different reasons than you have though. Full auto is pretty much useless for anything other than suppressive fire...squad tactics. Semi-auto is much more effective for pretty much everyone if you need to hit anything.

Body armor I would also have zero problems being eliminated from the civilian market. The downside to that is that it would not stop anyone from making something just as effective with common materials. You can buy ceramic tiles in a hardware store and layer it up to do the same thing. The jackoffs involved in that big shootout in the bank robbery in Cali several years back actually used phone books duct taped to their legs to act as armor there....and yes phone books are very effective at stopping handgun rounds.

Already stated my thoughts on real training for people for CCW...

The round count in a mag is the only place I really disagree. With all the attacks of small groups of people picking out one individual, and the amount of rounds it actually can take to stop just ONE person, it would just not be something you are going to see go away without an enormous battle in court.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Zaelath »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:As Jice said above, a lot of the departments use reloading as a HUGE cost savings. I do know that where I live, they have someone who reloads for their training. Part of the pricing you quote are retail prices that anyone can go and buy. Wholesale is much cheaper, reloading is a much bigger savings, and reloading with parts bought at wholesale is HUGE savings.

I recognize that not every department could use reloads and that IF they were to shoot that many rounds a month that the prices would be higher for the country than $1.5 mil. As it stand now, the course of fire is so easy that I am certain that a solid 80% of the people that take my class could pass the peace officer shooting qualifications....and that is not a comforting thought after seeing some in action.
We certainly reloaded our .38 centrefire ammo, but I dunno if that dropped the cost from 25c a round to 1c for 40 rounds... it also seems to me that's a hobbyist activity since your time is "free", where as paying cops whatever an hour to reload ammo would be a negative saving.

The thrust seems to be that they should be paying for ongoing firearms training out of their own pockets/time. I don't consider that realistic and it would create dangerous disparities in training level and style between cops on the same squad.

Anyway, I actually think $100/month is a reasonable price to ensure LEOs can at least hit what they're aiming at, given I don't generally trust them to pick targets appropriately that would still be an improvement. I was just surprised that you would be willing to fund that kind of expense; my next question was what budget line you were going to reduce to cover the cost ;) For me it would be school funding that's spent on football teams :P
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

a heartwarming tale of someone who can shoot

http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety ... s-officer/
EARLY, Texas — An officer under fire in a tense trailer park standoff was saved when an armed Good Samaritan grabbed his pistol to help take out the suspect.

The incident began when Charles Ronald Conner shot and killed two neighbors and their dogs in an quickly-escalating argument over excrement found on his property, according to KENS 5.com. As Sgt. Steven Means of the Early Police Department arrived at the bloody scene, Conner hid behind a tree and fired at the officer from an assault rifle.

Means took cover behind his police cruiser and returned fire using his own assault rifle, but neighbor Vic Stacy, 66, said that from inside his trailer, it appeared the officer might have difficulty getting a clear shot — so he leant a hand.

"I thought 'he's fixin' to kill that boy,'" Stacy told the Brownwood Bulletin. "And that's why I squared off and hit him in the leg and knocked him down."

Police estimate Stacy was about 150 feet away when he fired his .357 magnum pistol, striking Conner four times. Investigators determined as Conner returned fire to Stacy, Means also hit Conner at least twice — and a combination of their bullets killed him.

Police praised Stacy for his outstanding shooting in the incident, which happened July 29, and willingness to step in to a dangerous confrontation.

"The citizen that fired these shots did a tremendous job out there," Brown County Sheriff Bobby Grubbs said. "Had he not had a gun and the presence of mind to do this, we don't know what the outcome would've been."

Taking on a rifle with a pistol and landing 4 hits at 50 YARDS. It doesn't say if he only fired 4 shots, but even if he fired 6 at that range it is pretty damn good shooting with a handgun.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Zaelath »

Dunno about heartwarming... poor old boy looked a bit upset about being involved by the end of the interview.

Not enough details to know if he even did the right thing, I kinda suspect the cops aren't so sure either or it wouldn't take 20 mins to discuss what they were going to do with him before he got the cuffs off... but I can't imagine them arresting him for taking down that kinda lunatic.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

Zaelath wrote:Dunno about heartwarming... poor old boy looked a bit upset about being involved by the end of the interview.
people like kilmoll fail to understand that taking any human life is pretty serious. the fantasy of pulling out your "piece" and ventilating some criminal and getting away with it scott free (or even being treated like some kind of fucked up hero) is a pretty real one in the united states. especially among small men who generally feel inadequate in other aspects of their lives. george zimmerman did it in florida. thankfully it looks like he is going to rot in jail for what he did. the gun culture in that country is pretty disturbing. the image of owning a gun is cool and dudes think that spending a few hundred on a pistol somehow elevates their status as a man.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Winnow »

George stood his ground. Why would he go do jail? Leave George alone.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

even as a troll you utterly fucking fail
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Winnow »

Someone was beating on him and he shot in self defense. It doesn't matter if he's an asshole or not.

If he's unstable and goes to jail, unlike that guy that was deemed perfectly sane that shot a bazillion people someplace cold in Europe, he's being taken advantage of for not being able to defend himself.

I hope you're not making a race thing out of this. It's already been determined that race was not a factor. Of course, this is an election year so the guy probably doesn't stand a chance. Based on the current evidence, the guy should walk. Of course, if the races were switched, you and white guilt would be all over this on the other side. I know your type.

I thought OJ was guilty, so what do I know. I'm probably wrong about this one as well.

Kato did it!
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Another piece of shit off the street.

http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20 ... |FRONTPAGE
Earl Jones had just turned off his new TV shortly after 2 a.m. Monday when he heard a bang in the basement.

The 92-year-old Boone County farmer walked eight paces to get his loaded .22 caliber rifle from behind the bedroom door. He unwrapped a beige cloth and returned to the living room, sitting in a chair with clear view – and shot – of the basement door, waiting with the gun across his lap.

Some 15 minutes later, when he heard footsteps moving closer up the stairs, he raised the rifle to his eye. The intruder kicked open the door. Jones fixed his aim on the center of the man’s chest and fired a single shot. The Boone County Sheriff later announced the death of the intruder, Lloyd (Adam) Maxwell, 24, of Richmond, Ky.

“These people aren’t worth any more to me than a groundhog,” Jones told the Enquirer. “They have our country in havoc. We got so many damned crooked people walking around today.”
people like kilmoll fail to understand that taking any human life is pretty serious. the fantasy of pulling out your "piece" and ventilating some criminal and getting away with it scott free (or even being treated like some kind of fucked up hero) is a pretty real one in the united states

Taking an innocent life would be traumatizing. These worthless pieces of shit that are being removed from society....well that is a refreshing enjoyable thing. If idiots like you had your way, this world would be an unbelievably horrendous place. You should thank whatever it is you worship that there are people out there doing everything you despise that allows you to even be alive.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by kyoukan »

yeah the sentence for breaking and entering should be death. how fundamentalist muslim of you. no really, you should be able to blast someone for committing any crime so cowards like you can continue to hide behind your guns and pretend you're an actual man. I wonder how many times in america that same exact situation has played out only ending with a dead family member because some trigger happy jerkoff thought he was pecos bill.
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Re: Another white guy shot up a bunch of people.

Post by Winnow »

Once someone has broken into your home, you never really feel safe ever again. Potential robbers might be OK with risking a few years in jail but may think twice about losing their life over it. Either way, as the victim, you're not going to have a peaceful sleep there again.

Kyou must be a masochist...likes taking a beating and then apologizing for being so bruised up afterwards. I'm sorry Mr Mugger! It's society's fault you're like this! Please go on! Can I make you some tea while you rob me?
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