Obamacare!

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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Syenye »

Avestan wrote:I am just amazed that so many people in this country can have any confidence in our government to run an initiative like this with any kind of efficiency. The daily failures, corruption, and unreal inefficiencies of anything government run seem so obvious to me. . .
If you're fortunate enough to have a job that provides insurance at a reasonable rate, then sure, things work pretty smoothly, but there's a large population of people that can't obtain or pay for private insurance. I was turned down for private insurance because I take prescriptions for acne, allergies, and insomnia (admittedly, all quality of life drugs). This puts me in the same risk pool as people with AIDS, cancer, and organ transplants. So I'd say the private industry isn't doing so well with balancing risk.

I'll take a slightly less efficient system if it means more people have access to adequate healthcare.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Spang »

Avestan wrote:Name a single US government service (health care or otherwise) that you think runs as well or better than their private counterpart.
The United States Postal Service. UPS and FedEx can't hold a candle to what the USPS does everyday, and without taxpayer dollars for the most part.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Avestan »

Spang wrote:
Avestan wrote:Name a single US government service (health care or otherwise) that you think runs as well or better than their private counterpart.
The United States Postal Service. UPS and FedEx can't hold a candle to what the USPS does everyday, and without taxpayer dollars for the most part.
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Holy shit. Good one.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/ ... OO20120214

Holy crap thank you for that gift.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Spang »

Avestan wrote:Holy crap thank you for that gift.
You're welcome.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Avestan »

He really said the USPS? I am still laughing.
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Re: Obamacare!

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Since 1775.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Avestan »

Watching the USPS in the last 10 years has been like watching a train slowly roll off a cliff while the guy driving it is smiling and humming a tune.

Shocker! The internet happened! People don't need as much mail as they used to! Any private company would have changed their business model and scaled down five years ago. This is exactly my point. You cannot seriously argue otherwise. Argh - you silly Veeshnvault fellers! Holy crap. Government at its finest.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Dakanaf »

The daily failures, corruption, and unreal inefficiencies of anything government run seem so obvious to me. . .
Having worked at the USPS I can tell you it's by far the biggest corrupt entity I've ever seen, and inefficient. It may do the seemingly impossible and get the job done (sorta) at the end of the day but it does so in a terrible way. It may look all pretty from the outside with the people in their pretty little uniforms delivering and sitting in the little offices but that doesn't tell the story of the dirty people in the back working their asses off yet never making the unresonable deadlines and demands put upon them.

And as a consumer using the USPS I've had 5, count them, 5 things lost in the mail in the past year. How many items has UPS ever lost something for me? 0.

So Avestan asked for something run as well or better, USPS is not that. Spang your argument seems to be just volume? Pretty easy to ship out millions of little junk mail letters that no one cares about reaching their destination, and like the article you posted, that's the only thing keeping them afloat. They are shutting down something like half their sorting centers. 35,000 jobs lost. One quickly googled source.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Spang »

The financial problem it faces now comes from a 2006 Congressional mandate that requires the agency to “pre-pay” into a fund that covers health care costs for future retired employees. Under the mandate, the USPS is required to make an annual $5.5 billion payment over ten years, through 2016. These “prepayments” are largely responsible for the USPS’s financial losses over the past four years and the threat of shutdown that looms ahead – take the retirement fund out of the equation, and the postal service would have actually netted $1 billion in profits over this period.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Dakanaf »

I think with that you just proved yourself wrong so thank you?
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Spang »

Dakanaf wrote:I think with that you just proved yourself wrong so thank you?
Actually, it strengthens my argument.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Dakanaf »

What is your argument then? Avestan asked for someone to name a government run organization or agency that works as well as or better than a privately ran one. You said the USPS, which is run by the government. Maybe you just aren't aware of this fact but Congress is actually part of the government.

If you aren't aware of this either, most people who work for the USPS don't have benefits or retirements or anything like that. They are the ones who do the work and make things possible inbetween the neat little post offices the public sees, and they are treated like crap and come and go like the tides.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Spang »

Dakanaf wrote:Maybe you just aren't aware of this fact but Congress is actually part of the government.
No, I wasn't aware of that. :roll:
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Dakanaf »

Well I did always think you were stupid so I'm not sure why I even replied to this thread. Probably just my bias against the post office and the way they treat their employees. I'll let you carry on then. :)
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Spang »

Dakanaf wrote:Well I did always think you were stupid so I'm not sure why I even replied to this thread. Probably just my bias against the post office and the way they treat their employees. I'll let you carry on then. :)
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Winnow »

Avestan wrote:Watching the USPS in the last 10 years has been like watching a train slowly roll off a cliff while the guy driving it is smiling and humming a tune.
What sickens me about the USPS is their plan to encourage more junk mail in order to save themselves. I can't fucking stand junk mail and in no way want more of it. I've signed up for every possible electronic bill/statement delivery available. I get a handful of mail a year that's actually wanted.

I still can't find a way to stop those fucking "current resident" shopping mailers that jam up my mailbox. To my knowledge there is no "do not send junk mail" list like the do not call list for phones. There needs to be one but I doubt it will ever happen with the USPS being run by the government.

On another note, I'd rather let a package rot or be returned to sender than go down to the local post office to pick it up with the long as lines and suicidal looking post office workers that I encounter there. Send a package FedEX or UPS or don't bother sending it to me.
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Re: Obamacare!

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Avestan wrote:Watching the USPS in the last 10 years has been like watching a train slowly roll off a cliff while the guy driving it is smiling and humming a tune.

Shocker! The internet happened! People don't need as much mail as they used to! Any private company would have changed their business model and scaled down five years ago. This is exactly my point. You cannot seriously argue otherwise. Argh - you silly Veeshnvault fellers! Holy crap. Government at its finest.
You twat. The post has so many sunk costs to provide the basic service there's not much you can do to "scale down" to a point it's still profitable excepting pricing the same as UPS. A sample of that would be Seattle to Boston, UPS envelope where I drop it off at a UPS store, 0.1 lb, cheapest it shows me is $28.22 and takes 2 days. USPS does that for what, $1?

The post office has certainly lost a lot of business to email, etc, but people would pitch a fit if they priced like the above, but you'd be happy I guess, the government could send all it's correspondence out for $25 a letter and you'd have some waste to cry about.

Pure "market does it best" capitalism makes just as much sense as pure socialism; zero. You sound like an absolutist retard.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by kyoukan »

Avestan this is why you really are not worth arguing with. You post a link about why the USPS is losing money and you do not even read the contents of the article. The USPS is forced by law to pre-fund their pension plan 75 years in advance. They lost 5.1 billion dollars in 2010 and were forced to pay 5 billion dollars into this ridiculous pension fund, on top of what they already regularly pay into via employee pension deductions and employer matching contributions. The republican congress forced this legislation through in 2006 in a deliberate attempt at sabotaging one of the longest running and successful public services in the history of the world. The end result will be a privatized mail service that will be infinitely less efficient, more expensive with massive profits being driven into whatever private company that donates the most to republican superpacs. It will also be subsidized by the government to run a shadow of the same services the USPS runs now, especially in small communities.

You should be proud of what the USPS has accomplished. It used to be an example of how to run a revenue-neutral government service until it was deliberately sabotaged. They were completely agenda-less and existed solely to provide the USA with a service that is sorely needed. You complain that US government services can't be trusted to run themselves properly, then you make fun of the USPS for being a failure when they were anything but a failure up until 2006 when they were purposely attacked. If you would take even a minute to educate yourself on a topic before ramming your foot in your mouth maybe you'd see why I have a lot of disdain for you. It's one thing to be a fucking idiot like kilmoll but it's another thing to be willfully ignorant on any topic just because it is politically convenient.

Other bureaucracies that are run extremely well: FBI, DOJ, USDA, Coast Guard, FDA, EPA, NEA (until the GOP sabotaged their funding), AMTRAK, BCF, Forestry, DOC, Peace Corps, Justice, National Guard (until constitutionally misused as an offensive fighting force in Iraq by Rumsfeld and the Bush admin), Labor, Energy, Treasury, Aviation, Fish and Wildlife, National Parks, Mining & Safety, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (until destroyed by GOP policy and GOP leadership during Bush Admin), Secret Service (part of treasury), Federal Reserve - home to some of the smartest economists and policymakers in the world, Library of Congress, NTSB, NASA, Research and Innovative Technology Administration

I purposely left GSA off the list even though they have been an invaluable oversight organization for decades because you'd just drag out that one scandal that happened a few months ago. In fact dragging out some weird article you dug up from some asshole end of the internet to "disprove" why any of those entities in that list is wrong is basically wasting all of our times.

In fact the only completely worthless major government run services have been ones that were completely ruined by republicans and their dumb-headed, anti-freedom agenda and criminal overspending due to cronyism and greed: FCC, every branch of the military, Veterans affairs, DOD, and the most hilarious and wastefully expensive joke of all - Homeland Security.

Also, your stupid story about how great your horrifically expensive health insurance carrier is completely moot, because that situation would not exist in a country with a real health care system. The entire story would be "my daughter was born deaf and so we got bilateral cochlear implants THE END"

Or do you really want to talk about the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have had their expensive claims denied by their insurance carrier, or were dropped completely by their carrier after paying their premiums their whole lives and suddenly became sick and needed help? You know, the ones that will now be protected from that because of Obamacare?
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Lynks »

I had a "friend" who worked for Fedex. Him and his coworkers constantly stole packages. I could only imagine what happens at other locations.

The Canadian Postal Service has been much more reliable to me (although a bit slower).

Private companies are just as corrupt as the government. The plus side is, you can vote for who you have in the government and hope for someone good. In private companies, you can bet your ass one corrupt president will pass things down to someone else just as corrupt.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Aabidano »

Avestan wrote:Name a single US government service (health care or otherwise) that you think runs as well or better than their private counterpart.
Medicare and SS are both decent examples IMO; assuming that politicians hadn't written themselves unfunded loans from SS anyway.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Funkmasterr »

kyoukan wrote:
Or do you really want to talk about the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have had their expensive claims denied by their insurance carrier, or were dropped completely by their carrier after paying their premiums their whole lives and suddenly became sick and needed help? You know, the ones that will now be protected from that because of Obamacare?
This, if nothing else. My grandpa was a very successful businessman. He made quite a lot of money in his lifetime, and helped a lot of people along the way. He carried insurance all his life, and when him and my grandma started to get sick (cancer, amongst other things) he was dropped from his insurance. By the time they both died, he had spent the millions he had made (cash and the various properties he owned) on medical bills for the two of them. The family was just able to pay off the last of his bills and taxes with his life insurance policy.

Pretty exemplary job of privately run health care, I'd say.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by miir »

kyoukan wrote:Avestan this is why you really are not worth arguing with. You post a link about why the USPS is losing money and you do not even read the contents of the article. The USPS is forced by law to pre-fund their pension plan 75 years in advance. They lost 5.1 billion dollars in 2010 and were forced to pay 5 billion dollars into this ridiculous pension fund, on top of what they already regularly pay into via employee pension deductions and employer matching contributions. The republican congress forced this legislation through in 2006 in a deliberate attempt at sabotaging one of the longest running and successful public services in the history of the world. The end result will be a privatized mail service that will be infinitely less efficient, more expensive with massive profits being driven into whatever private company that donates the most to republican superpacs. It will also be subsidized by the government to run a shadow of the same services the USPS runs now, especially in small communities.

You should be proud of what the USPS has accomplished. It used to be an example of how to run a revenue-neutral government service until it was deliberately sabotaged. They were completely agenda-less and existed solely to provide the USA with a service that is sorely needed. You complain that US government services can't be trusted to run themselves properly, then you make fun of the USPS for being a failure when they were anything but a failure up until 2006 when they were purposely attacked. If you would take even a minute to educate yourself on a topic before ramming your foot in your mouth maybe you'd see why I have a lot of disdain for you. It's one thing to be a fucking idiot like kilmoll but it's another thing to be willfully ignorant on any topic just because it is politically convenient.

Other bureaucracies that are run extremely well: FBI, DOJ, USDA, Coast Guard, FDA, EPA, NEA (until the GOP sabotaged their funding), AMTRAK, BCF, Forestry, DOC, Peace Corps, Justice, National Guard (until constitutionally misused as an offensive fighting force in Iraq by Rumsfeld and the Bush admin), Labor, Energy, Treasury, Aviation, Fish and Wildlife, National Parks, Mining & Safety, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (until destroyed by GOP policy and GOP leadership during Bush Admin), Secret Service (part of treasury), Federal Reserve - home to some of the smartest economists and policymakers in the world, Library of Congress, NTSB, NASA, Research and Innovative Technology Administration

I purposely left GSA off the list even though they have been an invaluable oversight organization for decades because you'd just drag out that one scandal that happened a few months ago. In fact dragging out some weird article you dug up from some asshole end of the internet to "disprove" why any of those entities in that list is wrong is basically wasting all of our times.

In fact the only completely worthless major government run services have been ones that were completely ruined by republicans and their dumb-headed, anti-freedom agenda and criminal overspending due to cronyism and greed: FCC, every branch of the military, Veterans affairs, DOD, and the most hilarious and wastefully expensive joke of all - Homeland Security.

Also, your stupid story about how great your horrifically expensive health insurance carrier is completely moot, because that situation would not exist in a country with a real health care system. The entire story would be "my daughter was born deaf and so we got bilateral cochlear implants THE END"

Or do you really want to talk about the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have had their expensive claims denied by their insurance carrier, or were dropped completely by their carrier after paying their premiums their whole lives and suddenly became sick and needed help? You know, the ones that will now be protected from that because of Obamacare?
Excellent post, Kyou.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by kyoukan »

oh yeah, and cochlear implants were designed and created as a result of government funded medical research. I recommend you tear those things out of your daughter's head and sign to her that daddy doesn't believe in government funded medicine so she isn't able to hear anymore. 3 years old and already a fucking welfare queen.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Spang »

Also, the federal government invested in microchips and the Internet. As a result, people can now go on the Internet to message boards with their laptops, desktops and even cellphones, and pound away at their keyboards, keypads and touchscreens complaining about how inefficient and unnecessary the government is.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Leonaerd »

It is an important message - that we owe our comfortable existence to [corporation].

It's difficult to establish a fair line in the sand for the rest of us people.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Zaelath »

Better than show me an efficient government organisation:

Show me a US government run Enron, Goldman Sachs, Union Carbide, Pharma, etc, corporation that has killed, maimed, impoverished, or generally fucked over a significant population.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by masteen »

kyoukan wrote:oh yeah, and cochlear implants were designed and created as a result of government funded medical research. I recommend you tear those things out of your daughter's head and sign to her that daddy doesn't believe in government funded medicine so she isn't able to hear anymore. 3 years old and already a fucking welfare queen.
This is why I missed you when you were gone. Such pith and venom. :<3: :<3: :<3:
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Like herpes....



of course the little cunt completely ignores the fact that during the Bush years, it was fucking Dems in control from 2007 on. So all of those failures are COMPLETELY GOP fault right you vapid twit? You want to lay disclaimers about who was at fault...well none of us give a fuck. I don't care WHICH party was involved, the government WILL fuck up the system at some point. Social Security....yeah right. Outside the military and law enforcement, WHICH THERE IS NO TRUE PRIVATE SECTOR ON, they have managed to waste or destroy damn near everything you have on your list.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Aslanna »

Well... You sure destroyed her argument with your logic and facts.
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Re: Obamacare!

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:vv_arge:
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by kyoukan »

yeah, ask Donald Rumsfeld about no true private sector military.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... rporations
Private military contractors are the second largest force in Iraq with over twenty thousand active personnel in the country. The industry is growing with some estimating annual contracts in the $10-$20 billion range and others citing numbers as high as $100 billion. Though a worldwide phenomena, the United States and Great Britain account for over 70% of the world's market for their services.
One million dollars per PMC contractor at the most conservative estimate.

This is not even mentioning the gross misuse of the US Army National Guard, which accounted for a huge portion of the offensive fighting force in Iraq. Article 1, section 8, clause 14 of the US constitution (that document that your boyfriend W. Bush and his cronies took turns wiping their ass with while laughing at poor people like you) states that they are to "calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions."

Of course Rumsfeld talked Bush into using his executive powers as commander-in-chief of the armed forces to organize them into an army for conquest.

Speaking of executive orders, each of the points I brought out in my previous post calling the GOP out for ruining shit were a result of the president using executive powers. And really? The democrats have been in control of the senate since 2007 is your argument? This is almost too fucking easy. It's like picking on a shy child. Only one that keeps coming back to be humiliated over and over.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by miir »

You are clearly out of your league here, Kilmoll.
Pretty embarrassing that a Canadian seems to know more about your country than you.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I just want to verify that you are comparing military contractors to the actual military?

You notwits do realize that the "military" contractors are not armed forces or police officers in any way? They are basically upgraded versions of rent-a-cops. They are security guards, escorts, guards, etc. They do no fighting and most of them are not even authorized to be armed.

I mean seriously....if you are going to pull shit off of whatever liberal rag you read, you should understand the shit a little better. I guess it doesn't matter since the libs here will slobber over anything you post and take it as the fucking gospel.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

One other thing to respond to the stupid bitch.....the National guard has been used in EVERY fucking war from World War 1 through Korea and Vietfuckingnam. I am pretty motherfucking certain Bush and "his cronies" didn't have a single fucking thing to do with it.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Funkmasterr »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I just want to verify that you are comparing military contractors to the actual military?

You notwits do realize that the "military" contractors are not armed forces or police officers in any way? They are basically upgraded versions of rent-a-cops. They are security guards, escorts, guards, etc. They do no fighting and most of them are not even authorized to be armed.

I mean seriously....if you are going to pull shit off of whatever liberal rag you read, you should understand the shit a little better. I guess it doesn't matter since the libs here will slobber over anything you post and take it as the fucking gospel.
I know people that have been or still are in Iraq for private contractors. Many of them do computer work, and many of them do security work. I can tell you for certain the picture you're trying to paint is bullshit. Several guys I went to high school with work for whatever black water calls itself now, and they are the type of great people that toss live grenades at farmers as they're driving by them, just cause its a Tuesday. And from what I hear, this is still a far cry from uncommon.
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Post by Boogahz »

Funkmasterr wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I just want to verify that you are comparing military contractors to the actual military?

You notwits do realize that the "military" contractors are not armed forces or police officers in any way? They are basically upgraded versions of rent-a-cops. They are security guards, escorts, guards, etc. They do no fighting and most of them are not even authorized to be armed.

I mean seriously....if you are going to pull shit off of whatever liberal rag you read, you should understand the shit a little better. I guess it doesn't matter since the libs here will slobber over anything you post and take it as the fucking gospel.
I know people that have been or still are in Iraq for private contractors. Many of them do computer work, and many of them do security work. I can tell you for certain the picture you're trying to paint is bullshit. Several guys I went to high school with work for whatever black water calls itself now, and they are the type of great people that toss live grenades at farmers as they're driving by them, just cause its a Tuesday. And from what I hear, this is still a far cry from uncommon.
That just shows what classy people you hang out with!
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Jice Virago »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:One other thing to respond to the stupid bitch.....the National guard has been used in EVERY fucking war from World War 1 through Korea and Vietfuckingnam. I am pretty motherfucking certain Bush and "his cronies" didn't have a single fucking thing to do with it.
Never on the scale that has occured in the Middle East in the last decade and even then only as a garrisoning or rearguard force, not as front line troops. Seriously Kilmoll, get your shit straight before you open your fucking mouth. Don't just regurgitate right wing talking points as fact and expect that shit to carry any weight.

And Blackwater was called Xe, the last time I checked, and they are doing scary shit domestically like buying entire towns for their military bases in the domestic US.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

Dwight Eisenhower
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Funkmasterr »

Boogahz wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I just want to verify that you are comparing military contractors to the actual military?

You notwits do realize that the "military" contractors are not armed forces or police officers in any way? They are basically upgraded versions of rent-a-cops. They are security guards, escorts, guards, etc. They do no fighting and most of them are not even authorized to be armed.

I mean seriously....if you are going to pull shit off of whatever liberal rag you read, you should understand the shit a little better. I guess it doesn't matter since the libs here will slobber over anything you post and take it as the fucking gospel.
I know people that have been or still are in Iraq for private contractors. Many of them do computer work, and many of them do security work. I can tell you for certain the picture you're trying to paint is bullshit. Several guys I went to high school with work for whatever black water calls itself now, and they are the type of great people that toss live grenades at farmers as they're driving by them, just cause its a Tuesday. And from what I hear, this is still a far cry from uncommon.
That just shows what classy people you hang out with!
Hey, I just went to high school with those particular clowns!
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Jice Virago wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:One other thing to respond to the stupid bitch.....the National guard has been used in EVERY fucking war from World War 1 through Korea and Vietfuckingnam. I am pretty motherfucking certain Bush and "his cronies" didn't have a single fucking thing to do with it.
Never on the scale that has occured in the Middle East in the last decade and even then only as a garrisoning or rearguard force, not as front line troops. Seriously Kilmoll, get your shit straight before you open your fucking mouth. Don't just regurgitate right wing talking points as fact and expect that shit to carry any weight.

And Blackwater was called Xe, the last time I checked, and they are doing scary shit domestically like buying entire towns for their military bases in the domestic US.
If you want to compare it as percentages then they might comprise a larger percentage of active combat forces. However, in Vietnam they comprised between 70 and 80% of the forces the Army put on the ground. basically, this was another complete load of shit thrown up by the cunt and I expected nothing less than her libtard force to come running to say how MY facts are wrong. For fucks sake, she is saying it is a Constitutional violation, which it most certainly is not and never has been.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by kyoukan »

http://www.ngef.org/index.asp?bid=48
It is estimated that of the 12,234 Army National Guardsmen (ARNG) mobilized, more than 7,000 served in Vietnam (RVN), either in deployed Guard units or as individual replacements.
List of national guard fighting in Vietnam:

650th Medical (Dental Service) The "Fightin' Fluorides"
16th Eng BN (CBT)
126th Supply and Service Compan
Company D/151st Inf. (Long Range Patrol)
2/138th FA BN
3/197th FA B
107th Signal Co
131st Eng Co

Dentists, buglers, firefighters and engineers were apparently 70-80% of the USA forces in Vietnam. Holy shit; no wonder you fucking lost. No really, buglers. With bugles.

Oh wait. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/U.S._Troop_le ... ietnam_War

Over half a million US troops in Vietnam at its peak. Maybe in whatever school you dropped out of, 7000 is 80% of 500,000. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you and you are referring to 80% of the troop levels in 1962, before the war even started?

I won't even waste my time addressing your statement that the commander in chief of the military has nothing to do with using his executive powers to direct the national guard to be used as an offensive military for foreign conquest. honestly at this point I'd rather pull the wings off a fly.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Zaelath »

Boogahz wrote: That just shows what classy people you hang out with!
At least Funk has matured since high school...
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

The following units were not deployed to Vietnam; however, large numbers of Guardsmen were levied and sent as individual replacements to RVN:


CA 40th Aviation Company, 12 Dec 1969



CA 1st Squadron, 18th Armored Cavalry, 12 Dec 1969

FL 35th Mobile Hospital, 1 Dec 1969

HI 29h Infantry Brigade, 12 Dec 1969

IA 2/133rd Infantry, 12 Dec 1969

KS 69th Infantry Brigade, 12 Dec 1969

KS 995th Composite Service Maintenance Company, 9 Dec 1969

MA 1/211th Field Artillery Battalion, 12 Dec 1969

MO 208th Engineer Company, 12 Dec 1969

NJ 141st Transportation Company, 9 Dec 1969

RI 115th Military Police Company, 12 Dec 1969

TX 113th Light Maintenance Company, 12 Dec 1969
Thought you might want to add what you failed to cut out.

Now as to your own numbers....
Since Sept. 11, 2001, 36,940 Air National Guardsmen and 174,678 Army National Guardsmen have been activated.

The average tour of duty for those Guardsmen is 12 to 24 months.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011 ... istan.html

That averages out to about 18000 guardsmen per year. Total troop count averaged well over 100,000 during that time. And yes you fuck, the President and Congress can call the NG for federal service. The NG is US Army that also is tied to an individual state and can be used in the state for emergencies.
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Jice Virago »

All that extra shit you added is exclusively rear guard operations, unless you think they roll the artillery into the jungle or something? Forward artillery observers are the only NG regulars who ever got up to the front lines with any kind of regularity. It is the exact same sort of action they saw in WW2. And frankly, using the Viet Nam War as some sort of metric to validate the constitutional use of US military force is more or less fucked to begin with. The Guard are only ever supposed to be employed in a battlefield role when the nation itself is in direct peril, which you could make the case for in WW2, but not Nam or Iraq. The kind of stuff that the NG did in Viet Nam was largely taken over by private contractors for considerably more money than the actual guard would have costed us.

As for the numbers, 18k out of 100k is a ridiculously larger ratio than 7k out of 500k, even discounting the more direct battlefield roles the NG has been forced to take on. I am not sure how you can argue otherwise, outside of blind obediance to your right wing masters. But hey, don't take my word for it. Go track down a NG member who served during Nam and one that served in Iraq and compare their tour of duty experiences.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

Dwight Eisenhower
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by kyoukan »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Thought you might want to add what you failed to cut out.

Now as to your own numbers....
Since Sept. 11, 2001, 36,940 Air National Guardsmen and 174,678 Army National Guardsmen have been activated.

The average tour of duty for those Guardsmen is 12 to 24 months.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011 ... istan.html

That averages out to about 18000 guardsmen per year. Total troop count averaged well over 100,000 during that time. And yes you fuck, the President and Congress can call the NG for federal service. The NG is US Army that also is tied to an individual state and can be used in the state for emergencies.

Thanks for totally making my point for me, I guess?

Seriously, are you just trolling or are you really this dumb?
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by miir »

So you're trying to tell me that 7000 of +500k is not 70-80%...
And 18% (18k of 100k) is more than 1.4%?


Haha, Kilmoll's gotta be trolling. :D
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

kyoukan wrote:yeah, ask Donald Rumsfeld about no true private sector military.


Private military contractors are the second largest force in Iraq with over twenty thousand active personnel in the country.
lets break this down to you tards, since you appear to be incapable of defending the blatantly false argument with any actual facts. Private military contractors are not any kind of military force. If you want to count them as social workers or security guards, feel free.
This is not even mentioning the gross misuse of the US Army National Guard, which accounted for a huge portion of the offensive fighting force in Iraq.
fact: per your own admissions, they made up approx 18% of total forces in country....and that is not counting the ones who of course do not count because they are administration (again per YOUR requirements)

Article 1, section 8, clause 14 of the US constitution states that they are to "calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions."

Of course Rumsfeld talked Bush into using his executive powers as commander-in-chief of the armed forces to organize them into an army for conquest.
fact: ignoring the fact that it is NOT against the Constitution for the President or Congress to call the National Guard up for foreign duty, we have also established per YOUR own links that it has happened in EVERY war since the nation was founded.
Speaking of executive orders, each of the points I brought out in my previous post calling the GOP out for ruining shit were a result of the president using executive powers.
Now the question of the day is: do you really want me to go through that list and post each of the incorrect statements that you made or is the unholy triumverate going to ignore anything they don't agree with and use their leet high school debating tactics to distract from their absurd horseshit?
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

miir wrote:So you're trying to tell me that 7000 of +500k is not 70-80%...
And 18% (18k of 100k) is more than 1.4%?


Haha, Kilmoll's gotta be trolling. :D

is this REALLY what you are going to go after cheering her on about her false statements in the previous post? Really?
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Funkmasterr »

So then militias in Africa and similar regimes aren't militant? The private military contractors are almost entirely ex military, more highly trained than the aforementioned and use the same weaponry as our military, plus none of the laws and regulations that apply to our military apply to them. So how are they not worth mentioning?
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by Winnow »

miir is the new noel. Cheerleading other posters!
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Re: Obamacare!

Post by kyoukan »

hahahah.

Me: Links to sourced websites showing hard numbers and data that refute everything you've said.

You: FACT: ...Fuck you!

there is a difference between cheerleading and laughing at how horrifically stupid you are.
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