People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

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Aabidano
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People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Aabidano »

Ignorant or uninformed might be better than "aren't smart enough". Someone who only follows a single "news" outlet like Huff Post of Fox is going to get a distorted picture of reality too.
The democratic process relies on the assumption that citizens (the majority of them, at least) can recognize the best political candidate, or best policy idea, when they see it. But a growing body of research has revealed an unfortunate aspect of the human psyche that would seem to disprove this notion, and imply instead that democratic elections produce mediocre leadership and policies.
Nagel concluded that democracies rarely or never elect the best leaders. Their advantage over dictatorships or other forms of government is merely that they "effectively prevent lower-than-average candidates from becoming leaders."
http://news.yahoo.com/people-arent-smar ... 01411.html
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by kyoukan »

you're not seriously arguing that a dictatorship is better than a democracy?
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Aabidano »

kyoukan wrote:you're not seriously arguing that a dictatorship is better than a democracy?
Not sure how you read that in but...

In practice a democracy is better than any of the alternatives. What he's saying is while you'll never get 'the best" government; it's especially good at keeping people like those who've lately been running North Korea out of office.

Think of the odds of someone like Santorum or Perry getting enough of the public to go along with their lunacy to gain office. For that to happen, the less informed a constituent the better.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Leonaerd »

Let's just let the South secede. They can have the republicans. We get Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Problem over.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by masteen »

Leonaerd wrote:Let's just let the South secede. They can have the republicans. We get Neil deGrasse Tyson.

Problem over.
President Tyson has a nice ring to it.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Siji »

masteen wrote:President Tyson has a nice ring to it.
Mmm.. chicken.

Most people don't have the time or energy to get heavily involved in researching the candidates on their own. It's expected that if a news source says things a person agrees with they're going to listen to it and agree with much of what is said. The problem is the obscene amount of misinformation which is used in these campaigns. The way a single sentence can be interpreted a dozen different ways. Broken down, split up, compared to one of a thousand other statements made within the entire life of a person. It's seriously just out of hand. I can't imagine the pressure a president is under when they open their mouth. A simple "hello" to the wrong person lands you in months of accusations and distractions.

As bad as it's been getting, it's going to have to get much much worse before people in this country have their own 'American Spring'. People of the 50's would be appalled and infuriated at what the government gets away with these days.

Ed: "People of the 50s" meaning if you were to take people and time warp them from the 50s to now. Not people born/living in the 50s.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Chidoro »

Siji wrote:
masteen wrote:President Tyson has a nice ring to it.
As bad as it's been getting, it's going to have to get much much worse before people in this country have their own 'American Spring'. People of the 50's would be appalled and infuriated at what the government gets away with these days.

Ed: "People of the 50s" meaning if you were to take people and time warp them from the 50s to now. Not people born/living in the 50s.
I think they would be wondering why there are shared waterfountains yet there are no flying cars.

Politicians have always largely been scum, it's all just heavily scrutinized these days with the rapid transfer of information.
The public is, largely, stupid. Seemingly bright people can misunderstand the simplest of messages. The world of the simple sound-bite completely misdirects them. You can’t even bother trying to explain something to someone in any kind of detail because they simply will not understand or care not to understand.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Zaelath »

kyoukan wrote:you're not seriously arguing that a dictatorship is better than a democracy?
I would comfortably argue that it can be. If you happen to be sitting on a pile of resource wealth you can make any government style look good.

I still maintain Iraq is 50 years from being better off on average now they're "free".
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

A dictatorship would be better if the dictator was intelligent, well educated, completely benevolent, and selfless.

That will never happen.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by kyoukan »

Throughout history there have been scores of benevolent dictators. That isn't an argument though, because your condition to prove your theory isn't reliable. You could just as easily say democracy is best as long as the people elect only the most intelligent, selfless and hardest working politicians, backed up by a government that supports their every decision. Or any other system of government as long as X = Y.

Democracies tend to be the best because even though the will of the people is easy to manipulate, the politicians ultimately have to answer for their accomplishments and/or misdeeds while in office.

At least that was the theory at least until george w. bush got re-elected. now, who the fuck knows?
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Leonaerd »

Imagine an Obama without congress cockblocking his every (legitimate) move.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Winnow »

Leonaerd wrote:Imagine an Obama without congress cockblocking his every (legitimate) move.
I wish Bush didn't have those pesky democrats interfering as well during his terms!
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Aabidano »

Winnow wrote:I wish Bush didn't have those pesky democrats interfering as well during his terms!
By failing to throw essentially every rock they were handed at him? His re-election could have been cock-blocked and they didn't lift a finger. I understand why to an extent but the RNC wouldn't show that courtesy.

Bush really made me appreciate Ted Kennedy.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Jice Virago »

This entire argument proceeds from the assumption that we have an actual Democracy in place. We haven't had one for a while. The last couple decades (since Reagan, basically) we have essentially been a Plutocracy and we were really a socialist replublic a long time before that. We are a Democracy in the same sense that China is Communist; in name only.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Winnow »

Aabidano wrote: Bush really made me appreciate Ted Kennedy.
ewwwww! The drunk murderer? Bush at least quit drinking after being elected (as president) and never killed anyone (well maybe his wife did but we can't be sure!)
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by kyoukan »

more biting political commentary by our resident expert, Winnow.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Winnow »

Yet another stalker post.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Aabidano »

Winnow wrote:
Aabidano wrote: Bush really made me appreciate Ted Kennedy.
ewwwww! The drunk murderer? Bush at least quit drinking after being elected (as president) and never killed anyone (well maybe his wife did but we can't be sure!)
That's him. Who else had the standing and cohones to stand up and argue with him in a semi-effective manner? Pelosi? She couldn't lead turds out of a burning paper bag if someone was stomping on it. Harry Reid? Possibly, not that his party has the ability to follow straight line on anything.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Neroon »

A benevolent dictator is a great idea until they are replaced by the inevitable malevolent dictator.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Noysyrump »

I think you people miss the point entirely.

The entire reason for this Democraticaly elected Republic Government, is not to get the best candidate in charge. It is to actually to avoid it. Every aspect of our constitution is intended to hinder the growth of the governments power, and guarantee the freedom of us, the individuals. If we had the best possible leadership at the top, they could (and would) consolidate their power to the point of us beeing led by a new Augustus. Which as stated before, would inevitably lead to the next Caligula.

And for Jice. We have never been a 'Democracy'. We are a Republic. A true democracy would be equivalant to anarchy. Give me enough money, and I could sway 51% of the population to vote me in as Emperor for life.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Aslanna »

Speaking of dumb people...
PPP asks Republicans in Alabama, "Do you think Barack Obama is a Christian or a Muslim, or are you not sure?" Guess how many say Christian? 14%! Among the remaining 86%, "Muslim" slightly leads "not sure," 45%-41%. ("Not sure" may by the demographic Rick Santorum is reaching out to when he accuses Obama of peddling a "phony theology.")

But the Alabama Republicans are a thoroughly trusting lot in comparison with their Mississippi brethren. Among Mississippi Republicans, just 12% say Christian, 52% say Muslim, and 36% aren't sure.

The poll also finds that two-thirds of the Republicans in both states do not believe in evolution. Two-thirds of Alabama Republicans also believe interracial marriage ought to be legal, compared with 54% of Mississippi Republicans. Progress!
"ought to be legal"? Is it not legal now? I don't know what crazy laws those states have. It wouldn't surprise me though.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Spang »

I think it's a typo.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

Aslanna wrote:Speaking of dumb people...
PPP asks Republicans in Alabama, "Do you think Barack Obama is a Christian or a Muslim, or are you not sure?" Guess how many say Christian? 14%! Among the remaining 86%, "Muslim" slightly leads "not sure," 45%-41%. ("Not sure" may by the demographic Rick Santorum is reaching out to when he accuses Obama of peddling a "phony theology.")

But the Alabama Republicans are a thoroughly trusting lot in comparison with their Mississippi brethren. Among Mississippi Republicans, just 12% say Christian, 52% say Muslim, and 36% aren't sure.

The poll also finds that two-thirds of the Republicans in both states do not believe in evolution. Two-thirds of Alabama Republicans also believe interracial marriage ought to be legal, compared with 54% of Mississippi Republicans. Progress!
"ought to be legal"? Is it not legal now? I don't know what crazy laws those states have. It wouldn't surprise me though.

Yeah, definitely a typo. Most older people around here look down on it. I know some of my family does not like that I am with an asian, or that my son is half asian. The same ones would have a heart attack if they knew I had sex with a black girl. It is somewhat amusing, because I saw an old picture of my great great great grandmother once, and she was definitely at least half black, if not fully. I was young, so I pointed that out, and my great aunt (a very racist woman) told me she was just "naturally dark".

The ignorance on our President's religion also makes me even more embarrassed about my state. It wouldn't be bad if they just didn't care what religion he followed, but I know that the ones that think he is Muslim also look at that negatively.
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Jice Virago »

Noysyrump wrote:And for Jice. We have never been a 'Democracy'. We are a Republic. A true democracy would be equivalant to anarchy. Give me enough money, and I could sway 51% of the population to vote me in as Emperor for life.
We had a true democracy for a brief period (under the Articles of Confederation), but it got dumped pretty fast because it was ineffective at getting anything done without the kind of centralized federal power that a Republic possesses. A true democracy is not really anarchy, as much as it would be rule by popularity, which would be bad for civil liberties and free speech (as well as religious freedom), hence why we dumped it long ago. The Republic model worked until money corrupted the system, mainly in the 1920s and 1990s. It took a combination of the Great Depression and WW2 to break the hold of money back in the 1920s. I do not think there is a sufficiently jarring event that could accomplish the same in the modern era, without trashing pretty much our entire civilization and/or planet. Welcome to the plutacracy, where money and greed are worshipped and knowledge is reviled.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

Dwight Eisenhower
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Re: People Aren't Smart Enough for Democracy to Flourish

Post by Jice Virago »

Asheran Mojomaster wrote:The ignorance on our President's religion also makes me even more embarrassed about my state. It wouldn't be bad if they just didn't care what religion he followed, but I know that the ones that think he is Muslim also look at that negatively.
"Muslim" is just a code word for the new most hated race of these people. They just do not want to be overt with their racism. If he looked like a blond haired blue eyed poster boy for aryan supremecy and actually WAS a Muslim, none of these people would really give a shit, or they would not be voting for Mitt "I am white Obama" Romney because of his Mormon beliefs.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

Dwight Eisenhower
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