I'm simply blown away...

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I'm simply blown away...

Post by Wulfran »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/com ... _blog.html
The speed of light is broken! CERN has just measured subatomic particles traveling at faster than the speed of light !
Holy shit.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Aabidano »

Wow, could shake things up a bit. Perhaps neutrinos are the transport method for bad news?
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Boogahz »

Aabidano wrote:Wow, could shake things up a bit. Perhaps neutrinos are the transport method for bad news?

lol


I'm just waiting for the black hole to form within Earth's crust...

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by masteen »

There's already one inside Sarah Palin's skull.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Gzette »

she is quite dense ... i think you're onto something
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Xouqoa »

"We don't allow faster than light neutrinos in here" said the bartender. A neutrino walks into a bar.

*rimshot*

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

It's a shame that news like this can only be found on some nobody washington post blogger's page while the front page of fox news and CNN's websites are more coverage about democrats and republicans squabbling over peanuts like a bunch of fucking squirrels.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Canelek »

So true!

It was hanging near the top on BBC. It's science though, so you can't expect it to hang with the heavyweights of MEDIA-FRENZY, THISJUST-IN and STORMTRACKERNEWS!
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

what we know about modern physics just got tossed out the window, and in 50 nanoseconds the universe just got exponentially smaller. you don't think it should be news? even in the united states? it's the most important news since electricity was discovered. it might even be more important than that. when you think about it on a cosmic scale, all the rules are gone and it is a whole new game. in five centuries we could be laughing about how quaint modern theorists were just like we laugh about people who thought that the world was a giant plateau being carried on the back of a huge cosmic turtle.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Aslanna »

Well obviously it isn't on FOX because it's SCIENCE and as the are all fundie religious whack jobs they don't believe in science. Hell a lot of them still believe in evolution and think the earth is 6000 years old.
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Post by Canelek »

It isn't just Fox News. CNN and New York Times do the same shit. Kyoukan stated it as it is. This shit changes the game, as far as astrophysics is concerned (pending QA testing). Much of what the universe is based on is something to measure it by via the constant of light traveling from a to b. So exciting!
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kyoukan
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

Aslanna wrote:Well obviously it isn't on FOX because it's SCIENCE and as the are all fundie religious whack jobs they don't believe in science. Hell a lot of them still believe in evolution and think the earth is 6000 years old.
some things should transcend people's stupid politics and ideology.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Canelek »

Exactly. This country is so consumed with party lines it is sickening. Tangible shit is out there, waiting for embrace. Yet, here, it is all about politics and Jesus and vegans and clemency ( or not ), and greased-up Jersey people.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Spang »

Until the results are shown to be accurate, this really isn't that big a deal.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by masteen »

Spang wrote:Until the results are shown to be accurate, this really isn't that big a deal.
Given all the steps they took to make sure those results were accurate, this certainly appears to be legit. Also, they repeated the experiment something like 15,000 times, all with similar results, and then spent month rechecking their own calculations. Now, like all good scientists, they have invited and are eager for peer review and criticism. But this is big fucking news.
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Aslanna
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Aslanna »

I didn't say it was "just FOX News" I was simply stating why it wasn't on that particular news organization's radar.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Siji »

kyoukan wrote:It's a shame that news like this can only be found on some nobody washington post blogger's page while the front page of fox news and CNN's websites are more coverage about democrats and republicans squabbling over peanuts like a bunch of fucking squirrels.
I don't know how long it lasted, but it was huge front page news at Huffington Post at least.

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kyoukan
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

Spang wrote:Until the results are shown to be accurate, this really isn't that big a deal.
Do you think these physicists announced their findings 5 seconds after they thought that maybe they exceeded the speed of light?

Or are you waiting for Jesus to ascend down from heaven to verify?

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

Siji wrote:
kyoukan wrote:It's a shame that news like this can only be found on some nobody washington post blogger's page while the front page of fox news and CNN's websites are more coverage about democrats and republicans squabbling over peanuts like a bunch of fucking squirrels.
I don't know how long it lasted, but it was huge front page news at Huffington Post at least.
The Huffington Post is a news aggregate site for smart people.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Spang »

kyoukan wrote:Or are you waiting for Jesus to ascend down from heaven to verify?
Yes, I'm waiting for Jesus because that's what atheists do.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Winnow »

Say hello to these guys:

Image
Pons and Fleischmann

They discovered cold fusion back in 1989!

It's a story to keep an eye on for sure but it would be nice to see some double and triple checks before we see this on a Time Magazine cover.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

The scientists involved are doing what good scientists do; awaiting peer reviews. That doesn't mean their methodology isn't sound, though, and it certainly doesn't mean it isn't big news. This isn't some post-grad student pulling shit out of his ass, it's The World's Biggest Team Of Physicists working in one of the most harshly scrutinized scientific environments, and they felt confident enough to announce their results.
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kyoukan
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

Winnow wrote:Say hello to these guys:

Image
Pons and Fleischmann

They discovered cold fusion back in 1989!

It's a story to keep an eye on for sure but it would be nice to see some double and triple checks before we see this on a Time Magazine cover.

Image
Comparing this announcement to Fleischmann–Pons really highlights how utterly uneducated and uninformed you are. Go back to posting links in the porn forum and talking about Korean MMORPG's because your presence in threads about important things makes me fucking sad.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Winnow »

It's big news if it checks out. I'm as much into the advancement of science as anyone on this board. Only a fool would think Einstein's Theory of Relativity would hold up forever.

From the linked associated press article:
There's a long history of experimental results that at first seem to contradict relativity, only later to be found to fit neatly with the theory Albert Einstein loved for its simplicity and elegance.
The experiment needs to be independently reviewed - most likely by teams in the U.S. or Japan.
"If this result holds, and I kind of doubt it, it means we'll have to rewrite all of modern physics," said Kaku, author of the book "Physics of the Future" and host of a Science Channel television show. "Einstein has come out ahead every single time. However, this time you're talking about the largest particle accelerator in the world registering a significant deviation in relativity."
It's nice to get excited about things but one experiment, in one testing facility isn't going to cut it for me. Even Michio Kaku has doubts. If someone of his stature can have doubts, I sure as fuck can join him in waiting for confirmation.

Head to Culinary Delights, Ryyysfemorrrr! or Zombies Forum if you don't want to see my posts. Otherwise, continue being sad.
Some physicists, inside and outside of CERN, were critical of this process, saying the laboratory was giving too much weight to a premature result by a group that was not even part of CERN.

Nima Arkani-Hamed, a particle theorist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, said in an e-mail, “There was no need for a press release or indeed even for a scientific paper, till much more work was done. They claim that they wanted the community to scrutinize their result — well, they could have accomplished that by going around and giving talks about it.”
Several physicists told the Los Angeles Times on Thursday that they believed the OPERA team had probably made measurement errors. Clocking how long it takes neutrinos to journey 450 miles "is not a simple thing," said Stan Wojcicki, Stanford University emeritus professor of physics, "not like measuring the speed of someone doing the 100-meter dash."

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:Until the results are shown to be accurate, this really isn't that big a deal.
Don't you have a McDonalds to go protest at or something?


Anyhow, this is pretty crazy. I'm excited to see where it goes.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Spang »

You people are getting your panties drenched prematurely.
Australian physicists said that the result would be revolutionary if true, but remained skeptical.

Michael Murphy, of Swinburne University of Technology, said: ''This is one of the biggest claims you can make, so it requires a lot of scrutiny.''

Dr Murphy said the researchers had done the right thing in opening up their analysis for other scientists to check.

Nicole Bell, of the University of Melbourne, said: ''If it is true, it is ground breaking. But it will take a lot of convincing.'' Dr Bell said the findings not only challenged current theory, it also did not fit with previous measurements of the speed of neutrinos, based on ones emitted from a supernova explosion in 1987.

Neutrinos are among the strangest denizens of the quantum subatomic world. Once thought to be massless and to travel at the speed of light, they can sail through walls and planets like wind through a screen door. Moreover, they come in three varieties and can morph from one form to another as they move, an effect that the OPERA experiment was designed to detect.

Dr Ellis noted that a similar experiment was reported by a collaboration known as Minos in 2007 on neutrinos created at Fermilab, in Illinois, and beamed to the Soudan Mine in Minnesota. That group found - although with less precision - that the neutrino speeds were consistent with the speed of light.

Moreover, measurements of neutrinos emitted from a supernova in the Large Magellanic Cloud in 1987 suggested that their speeds differed from light by less than one part in a billion.

John Learned, a neutrino astronomer at the University of Hawaii, said that if the results turned out to be true, it could be the first hint that neutrinos can take a shortcut through space, through extra dimensions.

Joe Lykken, of Fermilab, said: ''Special relativity only holds in flat space, so if there is a warped fifth dimension, it is possible that on other slices of it the speed of light is different.''

But it is far too soon for such mind-bending speculation.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Canelek »

Oh go back to your boring-people bingo. You are just looking for new labels for yourself to assuage your guilt.
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kyoukan
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

Oh god, if only they factored in the 2007 Minos experiment in Illinois, they would have saved themselves some pretty heavy embarrassment from their peers. Don't they realize that if one scientist says something is impossible, it is a complete waste of time to try to disprove them? DON'T THEY UNDERSTAND THIS IS HOW SCIENCE WORKS?!

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Canelek »

Bingo (no pun this time).

The fact that there are people pushing the limits daily is quite encouraging. If for some reason they had bad data it certainly does not discount the effort. It is so easy to forget, apparently, that this is how technology is advanced. We'd still be at the center of the universe on a flat planet, otherwise.
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Post by Spang »

I don't see anyone saying that these scientists shouldn't be doing what they're doing.
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Post by Winnow »

The main point addressed is that it probably shouldn't be headline news yet. As some other physicists suggested, they could have went a different route with letting peers review their work before going all Hollywood. Perhaps if it was a CERN team they would have done that first.

This:
Some physicists, inside and outside of CERN, were critical of this process, saying the laboratory was giving too much weight to a premature result by a group that was not even part of CERN.

Nima Arkani-Hamed, a particle theorist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, said in an e-mail, “There was no need for a press release or indeed even for a scientific paper, till much more work was done. They claim that they wanted the community to scrutinize their result — well, they could have accomplished that by going around and giving talks about it.”

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Post by masteen »

Going around and giving talks to other theoretical eggheads doesn't make the public aware or excited about their work, and that makes securing funding that much harder.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Aabidano »

masteen wrote:Going around and giving talks to other theoretical eggheads doesn't make the public aware or excited about their work, and that makes securing funding that much harder.
Showing something like this as an exciting thing, even with misgivings that it's not true is far better than watching Snookie puke on someone.

Unfortunately given our environment it won't sell as much Redbull.
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Post by Winnow »

CERN’s faster than light neutrinos dilemma may have been solved

If a person has low self esteem, they probably should not enter any kind of scientific field as it seems that the whole reason for being a scientist is proving colleagues wrong (pesky scientific process).

Remember three weeks ago when it was announced that faster-than-light neutrinos had been discovered by the OPERA project ? There was a lot of excitement, and a whole lot of researchers breaking out their scientific calculators to find an explanation that would disprove the discovery, hoping that they would not find anything and thus disprove Einstein’s theory of relativity. A huge scientific happening for sure.

Well, it looks like Ronald van Elburg at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands has come up with a theory that may stand up to disprove the neutrino discovery. It all comes down to the simple idea that OPERA is not accounting for movement in their GPS clocks that are based on satellites in orbit.

In layman’s terms, CERN is using satellites to track the time it is taking neutrinos to travel from France to Italy. The announced discovery was that the neutrinos arrived 60 nanoseconds before light particles should have. There are many different factors that CERN has to weigh in during the measurements of time and space, and their one fatal flaw may be that because of the nature of the experiment, it considers their detectors to be based on the ground instead of in space. Because of that issue, CERN has not taken into account the relative movement of the GPS clocks on their two satellites. Both satellites are moving, one toward the other, and the other one away from the first.

Because of this movement, van Elburg has suggested that the detector clocks are calculating the wrong distance, because they are assuming that the source of the signal is moving towards them and compensating. Using that idea, van Elburg calculated that the clocks were subtracting about 32 nanoseconds of time, because there was less distance to travel according to the detector
Bummer!

Maybe next time they should have the "OPERA team" that rented the CERN facilities maybe discuss their data with other scientists before people start spouting off about why this should be headline news. Moving satellites seems like it would be something you would definitely factor in when considering distance/time.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

I'd point out the delicious irony of being so skeptical of the original findings, and at the same time willing to start jumping up and down and jerking your little penis off the first half ass attempt at disproving it; but you're a complete fucking moron and it would bounce right off you.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Winnow »

My money's on Ronald van Elburg but I won't complain that it's not on CNN until it's confirmed. If it turns out these OPERA guys actually discovered something, I'll be happy for them but it still shouldn't have been headline news, just like the kooks from Utah and their cold fusion shouldn't have been.

The story I posted about people eating human shitburgers was more worthy of front page news.

Image
kyoukan wrote:what we know about modern physics just got tossed out the window, and in 50 nanoseconds the universe just got exponentially smaller. you don't think it should be news? even in the united states? it's the most important news since electricity was discovered. it might even be more important than that. when you think about it on a cosmic scale, all the rules are gone and it is a whole new game. in five centuries we could be laughing about how quaint modern theorists were just like we laugh about people who thought that the world was a giant plateau being carried on the back of a huge cosmic turtle.
lol, talk about going overboard.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Jice Virago »

You do understand that even the theoretical possibility of a faster than light particle existing is a big deal, right?

If you preface that quote with the (obviously implied to all but the most obstanent board trolls) "If this is verified" disclaimer, then absolutely nothing about Kyoukan's statement is absurd. The fact that the scientific community is even discussing the real possibility of faster than light particles is a major fucking change from the Einstien era of C being the absulute maximum velocity in all of existance. The shit that they have discovered about black holes and dark energy alone in rescent decades was game changing and that never got attention over the petty squabbles that dominate the partisan shit tossing contest that passes for journalism in this age.

And also, she is dead on about your reaction to what amounts to a suggested flaw in the Opera expiriment. I don't think you are a moron, though. You just have a compulsive need to be a drama inducing douchebag whenever you see the opportunity. This is one part of an ongoing peer review process and it will take years and many duplicated tests to resolve to the satisfaction of the scientific community at large.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Winnow »

what we know about modern physics just got tossed out the window, and in 50 nanoseconds the universe just got exponentially smaller
It's nice to fantasize but everything did not just get tossed out the window. Take a deep breath. Chill out and wait for the crosschecks before throwing out the life changing statements. I don't see a preface to that statement which is what started this along with complaining about it not being on the front page of CNN.

I'm all for the advancement of science. Experiment on prisoners, kill them, eat babies. Do whatever it takes but at least wait until one test made by a group called OPERA that used the CERN facilities, but doesn't seem to know how to account for variables, can be verified by other scientists. They're as kooky as the team from Utah that I was harassed for posting about...why?...because the people criticizing it said that it was CERN damn it! They can't be wrong!....it wasn't CERN...it was a group using CERN facilities.

"I'm simply blown away" by how fast you jumped all over this story, wanting to toss out what we know about modern physics. I was excited about the single atom being teleported awhile back but I didn't go all Captain Kirk on you, announcing world changing events.
Among the most recent ideas is a paper invoking Einstein’s supposedly challenged theory of relativity. The OPERA team used GPS satellites to accurately measure the 730-km distance between their detector and the CERN beam where the neutrinos were produced. Yet, according to special relativity, calculations will be slightly different when two observers are moving relative to one another.

Since the satellites were zipping around the Earth, the positions of the neutrino source and the detector changed. According to the paper, the movement would account for a 64 nanoseconds discrepancy, nearly exactly what the OPERA team observes.
It may need more testing but it sure puts a damper on "tossing out what we know about modern physics".
The fact that this story has made a huge appearance in headlines over the past few weeks does not surprise Hughes, but he is worried that after it dies down, any future and possibly contradictory discoveries will not have as large an impact in the media.

“No headline will say, ‘Oops, we goofed.’ … My concern is that this potentially big splash will not be compensated for by correction,” said Hughes.

Physics student Asher C. Kaboth G also noted that “It’s harder for the general public to understand the little details … it’s difficult to explain.” Those who do not know much about special relativity might have misconceptions about what these results mean and their possible implications, he said.
The above quote is correct. You don't prematurely post these type of findings because then you'll have people making statements like "everything we know about modern physics has been tossed out the window". Imagine if they came to the conclusion that something would rip apart the earth...I wouldn't' want someone jumping off the top of a building (make sure it's at least 10 stories high please!) due to an unverified single experiment.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Kaldaur »

Everything I know about Winnow telling me that everything I know has not changed has just changed.

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Asheran Mojomaster
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

Yeah, I wasn't expecting this to actually be true, but it is still possible that the neutrinos were going faster than the speed of light, but by a lesser margin. The test needs to be redone taking into account the satellites movement. However, my guess is that they will find them to be going exactly the speed of light.

We don't need to go faster than the speed of light though...we just need to learn how to manipulate and move the fabric of space time. Then we could not move, but transverse distances with no limit to the "speed" (though again, you technically wouldn't be moving...just the spot in space-time you are occupying would be).

I remember watching something where Dr. Michio Kaku was explaining how this could be possible...but I think he also said it would probably take about as much energy as turning Jupiter into pure energy.

Though, it may be possible to obtain similar results using either anti-matter or negative matter (can't remember which one...I'm not a theoretical physicist so my understanding of exotic forms of matter and non-matter isn't that great).

I say we just find a way to perfect nuclear fusion in a usable way, and see what we can do with that. That is something that actually is looking to be achievable in the near future.
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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Aabidano »

You don't prematurely post these type of findings because then you'll have people making statements like "everything we know about modern physics has been tossed out the window". Imagine if they came to the conclusion that something would rip apart the earth...I wouldn't' want someone jumping off the top.
But that's how science works, they announce, then their peers take it apart to see if it's really true. It's not their fault the news picked it up, at a guess the announcement meant little to most who heard it.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Boogahz »

Winnow wrote:Physics student Asher C. Kaboth G also noted that “It’s harder for the general public to understand the little details … it’s difficult to explain.” Those who do not know much about special relativity might have misconceptions about what these results mean and their possible implications, he said.
Am I the only one that finds the source for this quote to be exceptional!? I took Physics too! Can I be quoted next??

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Winnow »

Boogahz wrote: Am I the only one that finds the source for this quote to be exceptional!? I took Physics too! Can I be quoted next??
So did the OPERA team that failed to recognize that moving satellites might need to be factored into their calculations!

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Boogahz »

Winnow wrote:
Boogahz wrote: Am I the only one that finds the source for this quote to be exceptional!? I took Physics too! Can I be quoted next??
So did the OPERA team that failed to recognize that moving satellites might need to be factored into their calculations!
Why not get a quote from them? Hell, why not get a quote from someone who is no longer just a student taking Physics?

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Jice Virago »

Because he was far more focused on cut and pasting the first sound bite he could google that fit his narative than actually engaging in a credible debate. Par for the course.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

Dwight Eisenhower

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Winnow »

This changes everything!

Can one of you neutrino time riders go get me some dino eggs for breakfast? I'm famished!

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Boogahz »

I found some eggs, but they already hatched.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by kyoukan »

Winnow wrote:This changes everything!

Can one of you neutrino time riders go get me some dino eggs for breakfast? I'm famished!

The saddest part is you actually think you're not a fucking retard.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Winnow »

172 IQ! ...that's above the retard cut off...not that it matters. Spang probably has the same ability to recognize patterns quickly and look at the crazy shit he spouts!

Don't go taking yourself too seriously.

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Re: I'm simply blown away...

Post by Spang »

IQ tests are not a good indicator of intelligence.
Make love, fuck war, peace will save us.

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