US spies on UN, diplomats ... creates front against Iran

[Gzette]

The wikileaks deluge continued Sunday with the first portion of a release of about 250,000 diplomatic communiques from the US, giving an almost uncomfortably blunt inside look at our foreign policy, intelligence community and diplomatic procedures.

Spying on the UN:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/no ... intcmp=239

World freaked out about Iran, deals made to cement tough sanctions form all sides:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world ... 9iran.html

US Diplomats talking shit about German leaders, counterparts:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 80,00.html

More to come for sure. I must admit, this makes for highly entertaining reading. However, it does spark some anger against Wikileaks. Presumably the "high-minded" Assange got all these documents in a lump dump from that one kid that gave him the Afghan and Iraq army reports. Presumably. If not, then this seems like wikileaks has become an anit-American website. I'd like to see some other country's diplomacy revealed on this level. No doubt, what folks have to say about American diplomat as is just as entertaining.

I was in support of the publication of the war incident reports (save the publication of informants names). But this could undermine diplomacy in general. If diplomats are unable to hold private, candid conversations with each other, nothing can be achieved.

Oh yeah, and Leslie Nielson died.

[Fairweather Pure]

Next on the list is a bank.

Early next year, Julian Assange says, a major American bank will suddenly find itself turned inside out. Tens of thousands of its internal documents will be exposed on Wikileaks.org with no polite requests for executives’ response or other forewarnings. The data dump will lay bare the finance firm’s secrets on the Web for every customer, every competitor, every regulator to examine and pass judgment on.

[...]

He compares what he is ready to unleash to the damning e-mails that poured out of the Enron trial: a comprehensive vivisection of corporate bad behavior. “You could call it the ecosystem of corruption,” he says, refusing to characterize the coming release in more detail. “But it’s also all the regular decision making that turns a blind eye to and supports unethical practices: the oversight that’s not done, the priorities of executives, how they think they’re fulfilling their own self-interest.”

[...]

Does Assange have unpublished, damaging documents on pharmaceutical companies? Yes, he says. Finance? Yes, many more than the single bank scandal we’ve been discussing. Energy? Plenty, on everything from BP to an Albanian oil firm that he says attempted to sabotage its competitors’ wells. Like informational IEDs, these damaging revelations can be detonated at will.

[Boogahz]

I can't understand any reason to print any of this. I can see where posting some of the information regarding actions in the fighting in the middle east would "make sense," but this is just stupid. I am not so worried about how the diplomats have expressed their opinions on their counterparts as much as I am for the information from other countries regarding things like Iran's nuclear program.

[Bagar-]

I agree that this seems blatantly targeted specifically at America and wildly "anti"-American. Is America perfect? Not even remotely so. But to presume that other countries don't engage in the same back-handed tactics is folly, and at this point with so many other countries taking a superficial moral highground stance towards America this only adds fuel to that fire. I would like to see some damaging information leaked about various EU, Asian, and Middle Eastern countries - particularly russia and china. But I guess the guy can only leak what he's got.

In principle I agree with Wikileaks, with the caveat that information damaging to human lives should never be released (soldiers, informants, etc.). Since they don't seem to follow that policy I cannot personally support what they do.

[masteen]

Our government has grown so secretive and corrupt over the past 5 decades, I think that this sort of thing is necessary if we the people are ever to wrest control back from the special interest lobbies that now control it.

[miir]

You'd think the teabaggers would love shit like this but they are the ones saying Assange should be hunted down, killed and/or tried for treason... that the website should be hacked or shut down... that he should be considered a terrorist... Oh and blaming Obama.

[Hesten]

I support Wikileaks, and consider their work invaluable in the fight against government and high level corruption.

That being said, i DO think that some of the stuff in THIS leak should have stayed secret. This time, it was not about any ongoing wars that got started for reasons that stank to high heaven, but diplomatic background material.

Some of it are interesting enough, and have relevance enough to be leaked, like that several "allied" countries are actually working close to being allied to Al Qaida than to the US, or how a certain middle eastern country have asked the US to nuke Iran, or that Hillary Clinton have ordered spying of FN employees.
But the average diplomatic interactions leaked this time have no relevance, and will at best show some US (and most likely, also other countries) diplomats as juvenile idiots, and at worst damage the way international diplomacy works.

So yay for relasing another huge reveal, but it should have been sorted WAY better, and only leaks that were actually relevant to anything should have been leaked.

[Spang]

If the United States would quit doing horrible things all over the world, this WikiLeak shit wouldn't matter.

[Aabidano]

If the United States would quit doing horrible things all over the world, this WikiLeak shit wouldn't matter.

You're suffering from inverse tea party syndrome.

[miir]

Defense Secretary Robert Gates was asked today about the WikiLeaks disclosures and he said this:


“Now, I’ve heard the impact of these releases on our foreign policy described as a meltdown, as a game-changer, and so on. I think those descriptions are fairly significantly overwrought. The fact is, governments deal with the United States because it’s in their interest, not because they like us, not because they trust us, and not because they believe we can keep secrets. . . .


“Is this embarrassing? Yes. Is it awkward? Yes. Consequences for U.S. foreign policy? I think fairly modest.

[Hesten]

Well, potentially Palins idea that Assange should be hunted down like Al Qaida is maybe a bit over the top...but nice to see "serious" american politicians suggest that non-us citizens should be hunted down like dogs for exposing things they dont like.
More amazed with the canadian politician who also think Assange should be killed

[Xatrei]

You guys complaining that wikileaks only picks on this shitty country need to look into the history of that organization a bit more. Just because some of their most recent and highly visible activities have dealt with US jackassery doesn't mean that's all they do.

[miir]

More amazed with the canadian politician who also think Assange should be killed

Heh, that was Tom Flanagan who is no politician. He's just a political analyst/activist.

While I disagree with most of his political opinions, he's usually quite entertaining and has a pretty sharp sense of humor... suggesting that he wouldn't be upset if Assange 'disappeared' was just a not-so-good example of his sense of humor.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

When an asshole like this guy puts people's lives in danger by publicly displaying confidential information, then his life should be just as much at risk as the people whose names he threw out there. The people who are giving him this information should be tried for treason. Assange is an asshole at best and a criminal at worst. If you make it your hobby to piss off every government, you are going to have a very short life expectancy. (especially now that you have gotten all up in the Clinton's business...they know how to make you disappear)

[Fairweather Pure]

He seems to be pissing off all the right people. I think I like him. I think he's opened up the floodgates. It's a new way to expose the elite that they are helpless against, and it scares the shit out of them. Even if he vanishes, well, it's pretty common knowledge that you can't stop the signal.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

If you want to take the risks to piss off the gubments that is all fine and good. You do not endanger informants or other people's lives by listing their names for your own self-important needs.

[Nick]

Wikileaks is literally the best website ever. It's amazing seeing the tough guy politicans and their idiotic Kilmollalike supporters crying outrage and threatening murder. Real peaceful bunch of fellows you Americans are eh.

If Assange goes, there'll be a million more intelligent, freedom loving people that will take his place.

Enjoy.

Talk in the U.S. of invoking the Espionage Act of 1917 is pure political posturing. Assange is an Australian citizen and there is no evidence that the disclosures put lives at risk or were a threat to national security. Remember that these are diplomatic, not military, dispatches. Assange is practicing free speech -- one of the pillars of democracy, n'est-ce pas?

[Funkmasterr]

Hiding behind his right to free speech is ridiculous and irresponsible. The guys is knowingly taking information from hackers or people who are breaking a long list of laws by doing so. He is not a intelligence expert, he is not fit to decide whether this information could potentially do serious damage. There are reasons why things are classified, and it's the government's decision when and if it ever becomes public knowledge.

Dude clearly holds himself in far too high a regard and I wouldn't mind seeing him taken down a peg. I also hope that if any of the citizens that leaked this information to him are discovered, that they never see the light of day again.

To be clear I would feel this same way if the target of this crap was, say, Ireland The guy has no right undermining an entire government to entertain his ideals.

[Aabidano]

I'd be perfectly happy to see the American press doing this same thing, they should be.

This set is just embarrassing, he last batch actually could have been damaging.

If the "free" press was doing it's job this guy wouldn't be.

Now the people feeding him data could well be committing crimes, at a guess he isn't.

[Boogahz]

yet if you buy a stolen car from me, you have committed a crime....

[Hesten]

When an asshole like this guy puts people's lives in danger by publicly displaying confidential information, then his life should be just as much at risk as the people whose names he threw out there. The people who are giving him this information should be tried for treason. Assange is an asshole at best and a criminal at worst. If you make it your hobby to piss off every government, you are going to have a very short life expectancy. (especially now that you have gotten all up in the Clinton's business...they know how to make you disappear)

Does that mean that when Cheneys Chief of Staff, Lewis Libby, revealed the identity of a covert CIA agent to the press, and was charged for it, AND got hit with one count of obstruction of justice, one count of perjury, and three counts of making false statements, he should be executed?

I would say that a Chief of Staff placed very high in the government revealing CIA operatives, AND gets found guilty for it by law, it would qualify more than when a nobody australian leaks info that the US diplomats find Putin to be an alpha dog

[Nick]

There are reasons why things are classified, and it's the government's decision when and if it ever becomes public knowledge.

Wow, you really have drank all the kool aid haven't you?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

When an asshole like this guy puts people's lives in danger by publicly displaying confidential information, then his life should be just as much at risk as the people whose names he threw out there. The people who are giving him this information should be tried for treason. Assange is an asshole at best and a criminal at worst. If you make it your hobby to piss off every government, you are going to have a very short life expectancy. (especially now that you have gotten all up in the Clinton's business...they know how to make you disappear)

Does that mean that when Cheneys Chief of Staff, Lewis Libby, revealed the identity of a covert CIA agent to the press, and was charged for it, AND got hit with one count of obstruction of justice, one count of perjury, and three counts of making false statements, he should be executed?

I would say that a Chief of Staff placed very high in the government revealing CIA operatives, AND gets found guilty for it by law, it would qualify more than when a nobody australian leaks info that the US diplomats find Putin to be an alpha dog

Yes...I would agree with him being found guilty of treason and executed....as should the people who gave the wikileaks jokes certain information. I am not necessarily talking about these leaks being the case.

[Nick]

Fuck you for being a sanctimonious war mongering, Geneva convention ignoring simpleton who cant tell freedom from a fatwa. People like you should be down on your knees thanking this guy - instead of lining up to stick your tongue as far up Sarah Palin's ass as possible.

Disgraceful.

[Hesten]

When an asshole like this guy puts people's lives in danger by publicly displaying confidential information, then his life should be just as much at risk as the people whose names he threw out there. The people who are giving him this information should be tried for treason. Assange is an asshole at best and a criminal at worst. If you make it your hobby to piss off every government, you are going to have a very short life expectancy. (especially now that you have gotten all up in the Clinton's business...they know how to make you disappear)

Does that mean that when Cheneys Chief of Staff, Lewis Libby, revealed the identity of a covert CIA agent to the press, and was charged for it, AND got hit with one count of obstruction of justice, one count of perjury, and three counts of making false statements, he should be executed?

I would say that a Chief of Staff placed very high in the government revealing CIA operatives, AND gets found guilty for it by law, it would qualify more than when a nobody australian leaks info that the US diplomats find Putin to be an alpha dog

Yes...I would agree with him being found guilty of treason and executed....as should the people who gave the wikileaks jokes certain information. I am not necessarily talking about these leaks being the case.

I dont agree with you, but this make you a hell of a lot better than most of the people i dont agree with in here . You at least think that the ideas you propose should work both ways, and not just for anyone you dont like

[Aabidano]

If the "free" press was doing it's job this guy wouldn't be.

Of course we wouldn't have the Tea Party, Rush and Glenn Beck would be doing something else for a living, CheneyGate might have happened, Bush likely wouldn't have gotten a second term, Obama might not have been elected, we may actually have gotten health care reform, social security might still have money in it, ad nauseum.

[masteen]

yet if you buy a stolen car from me, you have committed a crime....

Only if the prosecution can prove that I knew it was stolen.

[Boogahz]

yet if you buy a stolen car from me, you have committed a crime....

Only if the prosecution can prove that I knew it was stolen.

When combined with the statement I was referring to, it would not be difficult.

Now the people feeding him data could well be committing crimes, at a guess he isn't.

I think it is pretty damned simple to believe that the person(s) providing him with the information had committed a crime to obtain it. With Property, if you have any reason to even believe it could have been stolen when you purchased it, you are taking the risk of being charged with receiving stolen property.

[Bubba Grizz]

yet if you buy a stolen car from me, you have committed a crime....

Only if the prosecution can prove that I knew it was stolen.

Did you ask for the Carfax?

[Aabidano]

I think it is pretty damned simple to believe that the person(s) providing him with the information had committed a crime to obtain it. With Property, if you have any reason to even believe it could have been stolen when you purchased it, you are taking the risk of being charged with receiving stolen property.

But does a person who isn't subject to US law have any reason to observe things that fall under USC like data classifications? I don't even think your average US citizen without a clearance or knowledge of the system has any legal obligation to abide by it.

I would think it all depends on how his sources obtained the data, and how they presented it to him, and if it the story he was given would be believable to an average person. For any of this to matter he'd have to be extradited to a country with a large enough ego to care about this release.

Palin, et al's frenzy over this is like taking your neighbor to court because his kid flipped you off and you're offended.

Gates has the proper attitude.

[Boogahz]

Ignorance of the law is not innocence.

If you have violated the law of another country, they will probably be able to prosecute for it. Whether or not they will, is another matter. It would be like Viktor Bout, the Russian arms dealer, who was recently extradited to the US to face charges of conspiring to kill Americans, illegal purchase of aircraft and other things. I doubt he did any of these things while physically on US soil.

[Funkmasterr]

^^ What he said.

Also, to nick; I may not agree with the decisions the government makes, but the bottom line is you are not qualified to decide whether something should be disclosed to the public, neither is this wiki leaks douchebag. You can respond to that or think of it whatever you want, but it's really not a matter of opinion, this guy has no business doing what he is doing and at some point it will catch up to him.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I am not even talking about hanging Assange....I am talking about us hanging the treasonous asshole that gave Assange the information. I am fairly sure Assange will "commit suicide" or whatever unfortunate circumstance that will eliminate him and suits Hillary's mood.

[Boogahz]

I am not even talking about hanging Assange....I am talking about us hanging the treasonous asshole that gave Assange the information. I am fairly sure Assange will "commit suicide" or whatever unfortunate circumstance that will eliminate him and suits Hillary's mood.

Yeah, still waiting to hear if it actually was the same guy that leaked the war info. Last I heard, no charges had been brought against him on this set of leaked docs. He's still locked up in a military prison, and only recently came off of a suicide watch.

[Leonaerd]

this thread needs a sueven cameo

[Gzette]

Funny stuff. Cables confirm, Canadians are like insecure teenagers when they think of their relations to the US: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/world ... .html?_r=1

[Aabidano]

Ignorance of the law is not innocence.

If you have violated the law of another country, they will probably be able to prosecute for it. Whether or not they will, is another matter. It would be like Viktor Bout, the Russian arms dealer, who was recently extradited to the US to face charges of conspiring to kill Americans, illegal purchase of aircraft and other things. I doubt he did any of these things while physically on US soil.

Agreed, but Viktor committed a different category of crimes entirely. This could well fall into something more like my (daily) violations of Sharia law. I don't think I'll be extradited to Saudi Arabia for persecution.

That isn't the case in this instance but violating laws of another country in a way that impacts it's citizens isn't generally prosecuted internationally. Look at Chinese dry wall, pet foods, etc..., radioactive lawn furniture from Mexico and on and on.

*Edit - My summary, he embarrassed you, boo hoo, get over it. Do something useful and implement ways to prevent it's happening again. Both of these releases could have been limited in scope or stopped entirely by proper auditing and controls (that you don't have to pay billions to implement).

[miir]

Funny stuff. Cables confirm, Canadians are like insecure teenagers when they think of their relations to the US: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/02/world ... .html?_r=1

American diplomats stationed in Ottawa turned on their television sets and were aghast: there was an “onslaught” of Canadian shows depicting “nefarious American officials carrying out equally nefarious deeds in Canada,” from planning to bomb Quebec to stealing Canadian water supplies.

I think they might have been watching This Hour Has 22 Minutes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Hour_Has_22_Minutes

[Boogahz]

Ignorance of the law is not innocence.

If you have violated the law of another country, they will probably be able to prosecute for it. Whether or not they will, is another matter. It would be like Viktor Bout, the Russian arms dealer, who was recently extradited to the US to face charges of conspiring to kill Americans, illegal purchase of aircraft and other things. I doubt he did any of these things while physically on US soil.

Agreed, but Viktor committed a different category of crimes entirely. This could well fall into something more like my (daily) violations of Sharia law. I don't think I'll be extradited to Saudi Arabia for persecution.

That isn't the case in this instance but violating laws of another country in a way that impacts it's citizens isn't generally prosecuted internationally. Look at Chinese dry wall, pet foods, etc..., radioactive lawn furniture from Mexico and on and on.

*Edit - My summary, he embarrassed you, boo hoo, get over it. Do something useful and implement ways to prevent it's happening again. Both of these releases could have been limited in scope or stopped entirely by proper auditing and controls (that you don't have to pay billions to implement).

He could still be charged though. It might just come down to whether or not he ever steps on US soil, or is extradited from another country. I am guessing that it will all come down to whether it is seen as a freedom of speech issue or espionage. Where we may see most of the information as humorous gaffes of politicians and diplomats, some of that information could cause harm as well.

[Nick]

The chance of Assange getting convicted of Espionage in the USA are precisely 0%.

If it did ever happen, it would be a complete injustice. Then again, since when has America had much concern for justice? If Assange ever ended up in front of a US court, I doubt these cables would be the major worry for the USA - the international public backlash would be a billion times greater - and rightly so.

I'm consistently amazed at how vociferously American citizens will defend their corrupt politicians, despite the fact that those same politicians dick those citizens over on a constant basis. And it is a fact, that you can confirm by even the most cursory of Google searches.

Wikileaks did you, and all of us - a massive favour - it's a pity there are so many propogandised fools - most worryingly of all in the so called middle class, that can't get round the media and political outcry and bother their lazy, apathetic fat holes to look at the substance found in the leaks. I mean, it's clear as fucking day kids. Pride in ignorance - straight out of 1984.

If, as a free citizen, of any country, you had had even an ounce of sense, you'd be praising the release revelations - instead of acting like a rabble rousing group of unpaid cocksmokers for politicians that don't give a fuck about you, your safety, your well being or your international reputation.

Anyway, it's not even all about the US - it's about a whole shitload of other countries. Some of the cables actually paint the US in a positive light, sort of (you know, apart from their illegal espionage acts) - especially when compared to some of the Middle Eastern countries. Still, keep on following those media sources... you'd think you lot only bothered to get your information from the television news. Talk about being uninformed.

Since when did intelligent people defend politicians?

[Gzette]

Enlighten me oh Nick the wise. What should us Plebeian Americans take from these cables?

[Boogahz]

Enlighten me oh Nick the wise. What should us Plebeian Americans take from these cables?

Same as always. All foam, no substance.

[Aabidano]

I'm with Nick to a degree on this one. Regardless, prosecuting Assange would make the US look stupid and be largely pointless. Also, there are multiple people right behind him to take his place.

The message they should take away is to clean up their act. Under existing regulation no one should have been able to gather up all this data and get it off govt networks without detection.

Of course at the highest levels they shoot for security theater, generally not anything useful. Yet another case of the people in charge not having the needed knowledge base to make the decisions they are tasked with.

My direct experience is 10 years out of date, but from what I see in the press nothing has changed.

[Bubba Grizz]

Why would I be pissed? Because this is My Country. I liken it to a NFL game where your team is clearly superior and you cheer and brag and boast about it and then they get trounced. You are sad and let down and are now being teased by the opposing teams fans. You still support your team though and will cheer for them the next game.

This crap that came out is embarrasing and makes me sad and such but I will still be cheering for my country no matter what. Granted I don't understand most of what happened or what has been revealed and while I probably should, it isn't something I am capable of at this time. I suppose if I took those kind of classes in college I'd be more involved but that is not the path I took. I think the same could be said for a vast many Americans.

[masteen]

Why would I be pissed? Because this is My Country. I liken it to a NFL game where your team is clearly superior and you cheer and brag and boast about it and then they get trounced. You are sad and let down and are now being teased by the opposing teams fans. You still support your team though and will cheer for them the next game.

This crap that came out is embarrasing and makes me sad and such but I will still be cheering for my country no matter what. Granted I don't understand most of what happened or what has been revealed and while I probably should, it isn't something I am capable of at this time. I suppose if I took those kind of classes in college I'd be more involved but that is not the path I took. I think the same could be said for a vast many Americans.

DEY TRRK URR JRRRRBS!!!

My point is that this kind of reactionary "Us vs. Them" bullshit is what is killing this country.

[Nick]

Enlighten me oh Nick the wise. What should us Plebeian Americans take from these cables?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... key-things

That's just a simple, quick and basic run down of about 1/100 of what to take from the cables. We all have google, by the way, in case you've forgotten how to use the internet, or your brain.

But hey, loathe am I to let the truth rain on your parade.

[Bubba Grizz]

Which are which though? Does us = America and them = the rest of the world? I think Nick is evidence that "them" are against "us".

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Nick is only evidence of being a complete retard.

[masteen]

They're not against us, they're against the corrupt assholes who created and maintained this culture of secrecy that permeates everything our government does in our name.

"Us" should be "We, the People." "Them" should be the special interests that have stolen our government.

The average citizens of this country should be as against the bullshit power brokers who are running this country into the ground as the Eurofags like Nick are.

It should never be MERIKA VS. THE WORLD like this is some sort Andre the Giant rasslin 20 migets in a cage match. This is about people trying to live together, and the more we couch everything as some sort of conflict, the more REAL conflicts like Afghanistan and Iraq we're going to find ourselves involved with.

[Nick]

Well, at least Kilmoll's only insulting me - that's a step up from calling for my execution, or turning where I live into a glass car park, or any other one of the hundreds of embarrassing and irrelavny comments he's come off with over the years.

It's a shame that America is more infamous for its Kilmolls than famous for its Masteens. The nation, its founding principles, original leaders and current intelligent inhabitants deserve a lot better.