North Korea

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Funkmasterr
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Re: North Korea

Post by Funkmasterr »

I think it's mostly posturing. That being said, this pot is eventually going to boil over, it just has to. And being as China has agreed with UN sanctions on N Korea, and they depend on the rest of the world to buy their shit so they can make it past their industrial phase, I really don't think they would get involved in any kind of military action related to N Korea. Hopefully we don't have to find out, but like I said, I don't think that's gonna be the case forever.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

Aslanna wrote:The problem with that is that China is an ally of North Korea so yeah... There's that to deal with.

China won't do shit if North Korea does something crazy and the US/South Koreans retaliate. They've been upset with North Korea's actions for years and even signed on to the latest UN Sanctions. They won't risk war with the United States over North Korea. Their economy would take a nose dive, plus they'd lose the war anyway...not that the United States wouldn't be a mess as well. North Korea is not worth starting a world war to China.

The US would be in no shape to rebuild China like we've rebuilt every other nation we defeat. North Korea, on the other hand, would benefit greatly from getting their asses kicked. South Korea is an economic powerhouse. They have the 15th largest GDP in the world. Can you imagine the Foxconn type factories they could build in North Korea? Those people would think working like that was heaven when they actually got paid anything at all. A unified Korea would eventually rival Japan's GDP.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Spang »

If shit went down:

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Re: North Korea

Post by Hesten »

To be honest, this is posturing, nothing else.
North Korea spend the last 20 years behaving exactly like this, threatening to the limit, but knowing that if they do something, they will be wiped out.
Now they got new leadership, who need to prove he is just as much the man his father was, and thus he does the usual threats, nothing will come of this.
That is, unless China, Russia, South Korea, or the US, decided on a preemptive strike.
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Re: North Korea

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Winnow wrote:Can you imagine the Foxconn type factories they could build in North Korea? Those people would think working like that was heaven when they actually got paid anything at all. A unified Korea would eventually rival Japan's GDP.
North Korea has no infrastructure of any kind. Plenty of other places to build cheap goods still. Using the US as "third world labor" has become economical, the Germans are doing it in SC, other are doing it elsewhere. We're winning the race to the bottom we started in the '60s. The guy running Foxconn said he he could do it profitably but is frightened by US legislators.

No reason at all to export manufacturing from anyplace but China to NK, and that's not going to happen until China's middle class and wage structure grow a lot. Assuming it ever does, corruption is taking all the profits off the top still. You'd be starting from scratch, and China is basically the only economy (potentially) big enough to suck up the goods yet another third world manufacturer would produce.

No one including China is going to sink a dime into NK until the current government is totally replaced. Most of the problems they have are self inflicted. For example the some of the most fertile farmlands in the nation were repeatedly saturated with salt water from a brainstorm of the previous "Dear Leader" had. They won't produce food again for decades.
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Winnow
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

I'm talking if Korea unifies after a conflict. Korea would have a huge interest in developing resources within their own country in the north. It wouldn't happen overnight. Koreans are extremely capable and, like East Germany after the wall came down, would do well given the chance.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Aabidano »

For the south it would be the simplest way to keep the peace long term. I'm not sure I expect much to be left in the north though. It's like a country-wide People's Temple.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Bojangels »

If the North launched everything they had at Seoul as quickly as they could, which is what is expected if a war broke out, there would be hundreds of thousands of casualties in a matter of a few days. There isn't really much of a missile threat to the U.S., Guam, or Japan. Between Seoul getting bombarded, and all of the Special Forces that could be running around for months or years after we 'win' the war, it would be pretty nasty for Koreans though.

I was pretty shocked when there was no retaliation for North Korea killing all of those people when they sank that ship, and shelled that island. Seems pretty stupid to start a war over some smack talk now.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

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Don't know if this will red-x or not but that's awesome! A pop up grade school book of a US Soldier taking a hatchet to a North Korean girl for playing the violin!
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Re: North Korea

Post by Aabidano »

The question is: do the people running that State, and that army, actually believe this? (that a war is winnable by NK) What worries me is that, having met several of them, I don't think they know enough about the rest of the world to actually understand this.
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Re: North Korea

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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

I thought this was a worthwhile watch about someone (the only one) that's ever escaped from a North Korean gulag:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/10/world/asi ... ?hpt=hp_c4
The unflinching account from a defector revealed how he picked corn kernels out of cow manure to eat as he competed with his family for food at one of North Korea's notorious prison camps.

He was also forced to watch his mother's hanging and his brother's execution. He was born in a "total control zone" where prison authorities wield complete power, where guards beat children to death with no hesitation.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

Kim Jong Un's executed uncle was eaten alive by 120 hungry dogs: report

By Alexander Smith, Eric Baculinao, worldnews.nbcnews.com

January 3rd, 2014

BEIJING -- North Korean leader Kim Jong Un's powerful uncle was stripped naked, thrown into a cage, and eaten alive by a pack of ravenous dogs, according to a newspaper with close ties to China's ruling Communist Party.

The man who was believed to be in charge of training his young nephew to take over was executed as a traitor, indicating a shake-up in Kim Jong Un's regime. NBC's Andrea Mitchell reports.

Jang Song Thaek, who had been considered Kim's second-in-command, was executed last month after being found guilty of "attempting to overthrow the state," North Korea’s state-run news agency reported.

The official North Korean account on Dec. 12 did not specify how Jang was put to death.

U.S. officials told NBC News on Friday that they could not confirm the reports. "This is not ringing any bells here," said one senior official.

Hong Kong-based pro-Beijing newspaper Wen Wei Po reported that Jang and his five closest aides were set upon by 120 hunting hounds which had been starved for five days.

Kim and his brother Kim Jong Chol supervised the one-hour ordeal along with 300 other officials, according to Wen Wei Po. The newspaper added that Jang and other aides were "completely eaten up."

The newspaper has acted as a mouthpiece for China's Communist Party. The report may be a sign of the struggle between those in the party who want to remain engaged with North Korea and those who would like to distance themselves from Kim's regime.
I'm sure Dennis Rodman thinks Kim's a good guy still!
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Re: North Korea

Post by Fairweather Pure »

I think that story has already been debunked.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

I guess Kim's OK then!
Around the same time the Straits Times ran with the Wen Wei Po piece, the New York Times, citing South Korean intelligence, reported that some of Jang’s associates were executed using antiaircraft guns while Jang himself was killed “by more traditional means.”

The method, in the end, may not matter so much. Nobody would argue in favor of death by dog, death by mortar fire, or, really, any other type of execution under Kim family’s grim authoritarian rule. But the focus on palace politics, rumors and intrigue seems to be calling attention away from what we do know is taking place.

Just last month, Amnesty International released new satellite images of a notorious North Korean prison camp that shows new housing blocks. A former guard told the agency of ongoing forced labor, the imprisonment of children, and of people being forced to dig their own graves. If you are still hungry for horror, give it a read.
Blowing them up via antiaircraft is more humane. Probably would have been best to let North Korea overrun South Korea instead of sending troops over there. Sounds like a nice place to live if you like prison camps and picking corn out of piles of shit to eat.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

This video from 1999 of Trump talking about North Korea is pretty telling on how he feels about what should be done:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/1999-trump-w ... 06206.html

Also, I'm a big time CNN hater but this article from yesterday does a pretty thorough job of breaking down what a U.S. first strike would entail:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/11/politics/ ... index.html

Biggest problem remains the ~21,000 pieces of artillery aimed at Seoul. No matter how massive the first strike is, there are going to be mass casualties in Seoul.

Barring some sort of coup in North Korea, I don't think there's any way to avoid the scenario outlined by CNN's article above. Highest priority would be taking out Kim Jong Un.

I've no doubt the U.S and allies would win the conflict decisively but the 11th largest economy in the world (South Korea) would be hit hard. Sucks that the capital is located so close to North Korea. Japan is fed up with North Korea's missiles. China would formally protest but would stay out of the war. China has become an economic force and I think feel less threatened by the U.S. recently, plus they are busy flexing their muscles in Hong Kong and the South Sea. With economic success comes a lot more rational behavior from China since they have something to lose now.

The U.S. can't try and make a statement with a tactical strike against a nuclear facility or some other target this time. They have to go all in, basically non stop carpet bombing the artillery positions as well as rapid strikes all over North Korea directed at military targets and infrastructure. If/when it happens, it will be the most massive one day military strike probably ever, past or future that doesn't involve nuclear weapons. In fact, tactical nukes probably aren't out of the question in this case since North Korea has the capability to respond (weakly, but can response) with a few nuclear warheads.

The U.S. would steamroll North Korea but unlike the Middle East, this would be brutal. While there would be mass casualties including a lot of U.S. troops stationed near the border, I don't think the war would last long. Pretty sure most North Korean's would be ok with a change in leadership. 99% of North Koreans would be ecstatic to have 1/4 of the quality of life South Koreans have. South Korea would love to put North Koreans to work in factories making electronics. It's a win win situation once the mass killing required for the change is over.

Unlike the Middle East conflicts, this is some scary shit. This might be one time I may actually want to take my money out of the stock market. It won't be just a bunch of "muslims" dying this time that no one cares about. South Korea makes my TVs, some of my hard drives, many of the components in my phone, lots of MMORPGs I play. In short, South Korea matters.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Aslanna »

Even more telling is Trump's 2013 tweet:
Donald J Trump wrote:Be prepared, there is a small chance that our horrendous leadership could unknowingly lead us into World War III.
5:46 AM - Aug 31, 2013
Winnow wrote:It won't be just a bunch of "muslims" dying this time that no one cares about. South Korea makes my TVs, some of my hard drives, many of the components in my phone, lots of MMORPGs I play. In short, South Korea matters.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Funkmasterr »

Makes me sick to say it, but this could be the one thing I agree with that comes out of the Trump presidency. As far as I'm concerned, they should have slaughtered Kim Jong Un and anyone that is even remotely loyal to him or his ways a long time ago. I'd prefer they kill him in an extremely inhumane fashion though, bombing is too good for him. I'd say you torture him for a few months, then once he's all cut and bruised up from a few months of that - throw him into a shit filled outhouse and leave him there until he fucking dies of an infection. And televise it. I'd watch.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

Aslanna wrote:Even more telling is Trump's 2013 tweet:
Donald J Trump wrote:Be prepared, there is a small chance that our horrendous leadership could unknowingly lead us into World War III.
5:46 AM - Aug 31, 2013
Yeah, lead us into World War III by not taking care of the insane leader and son 17 years ago. Now look were we are. Dude's got nukes and is giving us his flight plan for missiles aimed at Guam.

The Kim's make Saddam look like a saint with their insane banter and actions. I know we're not supposed to care about what happens to citizens of other countries but North Korean's have to be right near the bottom in quality of life, being terrorized, tortured, starved, etc due to their moronic leader. No one will defend the leaders of North Korea. China, only because it doesn't want a unified Korea with U.S. troops at its border. Russia, because Putin's a thug and will use anything politically against the U.S. But no country seriously believes North Korea is good as it stands.

I don't think I've ever seen a situation like North Korea. No one hates the people of North Korea (I might a little because once they get decent PCs, I'll have that many more Koreans beating my ass in Overwatch, yes it is all about me!). Once the fighting stops, there will be very little animosity, except for maybe the people of North Korea against their former leaders and wardens of the gulags they were held captive in.

This is a clear cut case of needing to overthrow a government. With the rate at which Kim assassinates his own military leaders, I don't think it would take much (probably Kim dying) to get a change in attitude over there. Massive destruction and death is a given at this point. One benefit to the sad events that unfold will maybe be a wake up call the the Irans, Pakistans, etc of the world to keep their shit in line. It can't be all surgical strikes in this case. The slower we are, the more South Koreans that will die in Seoul. China isn't stupid. They know the West (US/Japan, etc) aren't scheming for a grander invasion beyond North Korea. It's time for the leaders of North Korea to go. (has been since the early 2000's). Clinton, Bush (occupied by 911 and Middle East bullshit has somewhat of an excuse) and Obama didn't want to deal with it. Trump looks like he is willing to.

Only hope for any kind of semi peaceful resolution is a coup in North Korea. That wouldn't completely fix things but would probably deescalate the military option quite a bit.
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Re: North Korea

Post by Winnow »

Gotta admit (for now) Trump has done a great job de-escalating the North Korea situation. I didn't even think this was possible awhile back. Things could still blow up, but the situation is way better than it was for now.

Next meeting should be a ping pong match between Kim and Trump with the net being placed right along the 38th Parallel.
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