What this the cusp of Obama's failure?

[Metanis]

When the historians look back on the Obama implosion the self-inflicted Mosque fiasco gave the American people their permission to reject Obama without guilt.

Obama's point of no return

There comes a moment in a failing presidency where the incumbent, through some single gesture, action, or statement, crosses a certain line from beyond which there is no return.

(PS For you board Nazis like Miir that will constipate yourself for 3 days because I started a new thread. Well you can just /twirl. The Obama administration's public turbulence and loss of altitude has become a death spiral. Dissecting the corpse will advance many academic careers. A new chapter deserves a new thread.)

[Zaelath]

This just in, right-wing publication lambasts sitting democrat president.

In other news: water still wet, Metanis still retarded.

[Xyun]

lol who gives a shit about a fucking mosque?

[miir]

You're right, Obama is a failure as president for defending the constitutional rights of Americans.

[miir]

OMG, that 'american thinker' stite is a fucking riot.
Loaded with conspiracy theory nutcases, 'birther' morons and racists douchebags.

[Metanis]

OMG, that 'american thinker' stite is a fucking riot.
Loaded with conspiracy theory nutcases, 'birther' morons and racists douchebags.

And here I thought VV had the market locked on nutcases, morons, and douchebags....

[Fairweather Pure]

It's not even a mosque. It's a community center with a place of worship within. Once again, the republicans control their sheep with a single word.

[Metanis]

Well isn’t that interesting? When Bush declared his Christianity, the press felt a need to delve into his faith and explore the nuances of his belief. Was Bush a moderate Christian, or was he really just one of those crazy wingnut believers who use words like sin and redemption and stuff? Heck, those people are practically snake-handlers, right? But the real question was whether he was a real Christian at all.

So many questions to be explored. And explore them, the press did.

Then, I mean.

I have no idea what Barack Obama believes about God, and I really don’t care. Who he prays to is less important to me than the fact that he’s expanding government power and turning the United States into a debtocracy. The deficits his administration have created threaten not just my economic well-being, but that of my children and quite possibly their children. To me, Obama’s policies are more important than his faith.

The media seem to feel differently. When a poll showed that a growing number of Americans are starting to wonder if Obama is a Muslim, the press swung into full White House Protection Mode. Take it away, Bill Burton!

As Obama left for a vacation, Burton told reporters aboard Air Force One that most Americans care more about the economy and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and “they are not reading a lot of news about what religion the president is.”

Burton added, “The president is obviously a Christian. He prays every day.”

With this, the media breathes a sigh of relief. The White House says the president is a Christian, so he’s obviously a Christian. End of story. No reason to examine this question further, so let’s move on, okay?

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/08/20/f ... residents/

Obama has done this to himself. That's the most amazing thing about this. Did he somehow leave his brains in Chicago? If you leave questions unanswered why wouldn't you expect people to attempt to fill in the blanks?

[Xatrei]

Well, if a conservative blog says so, it must be true.

[Aabidano]

Saw a couple things at a glance that seemed worth reading but like Fox news it's not really worth digging through the poo to find that occasional nugget of corn.

[Boogahz]

Saw it all over the place, and I haven't visited/watched FOX News.

[Aabidano]

Poo?

[Boogahz]

Was smearing it on my own walls wrong? I thought the pills made it all better

[miir]

Should they remove the mosque in the Pentagon.
It was also a 9/11 target.

Do constitutional rights only apply to white christians?

What about the white christian KKK members who murdered hundreds of african americans in the name of god, the bible and christianity?
Why aren't we telling law-abiding christians where they can (or cannot) build their churches?

I'm pretty darn sure the businessmen who are behind this muslim community center were in no way involved with the 9/11 attacks.


I have yet to hear a good sane reason why they shouldn't be allowed to build a Muslim community centre on private property in Lower Manhattan.

[Sylvus]

That article is cute, talking about a president's "endless vacations" and "clownish response" to gulf-coast disasters. Which one was this about again?

Metanis, I believe you've made it pretty clear in your response to Prop 8 being overturned that you support the will of the many over the will of the few. I have one incredibly straightforward, yes-or-no question for you: in your opinion, are there 750,000,001 or more Muslims in the world that support or celebrate the 9/11 bombings?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I can't find anyone being on record as saying it is against the Constitution to build the mosque. Most are saying (including Harry Reid) that it would be in poor taste to build a Muslim shrine in a place where extremist muslims attacked and killed 3000 civilians.

If someone wanted to build a Nazi shrine in Jerusalem, I am fairly certain it would go over poorly.




As for comparing Obama's vacations and all that to Bush......wasn't he the President for CHANGE? His entire platform was to not have business as usual. He has failed in a massive way.

[Sylvus]

If someone wanted to build a Nazi shrine in Jerusalem, I am fairly certain it would go over poorly.

You don't honestly believe there is even a close parallel between the Nazis and Muslims in general. That is completely foolish.

[miir]

If someone wanted to build a Nazi shrine in Jerusalem, I am fairly certain it would go over poorly

That you can compare one attack were less than 3k americans were killed to the holocaust were 10+ million jews were killed is fucking insulting.



Aside from that, your comparison is not even close to being apt.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

There is a parallel with muslim radicals and the nazi radicals. If the muslim extremists had their way, they would kill every single non-muslim on the planet. We are just lucky they do not have the backing of an army like the Germans had.

[miir]

I wasn't aware that constitutional rights could be ignored in a case where someone's sensibilites are offended.


It's been reported that the 9/11 hijackers frequented strip clubs in the weeks leading up to the attacks.
Should the strip club that's located on the same block as the proposed community center also be closed down?

It was also reported that the hijackers partook in the consumption of alchol and these strip clubs.
Should the sale of alcohol be restricted in the 'ground zero' area?

Actually, doesn't the Qu'ran strictly forbid the consumption of alcohol?
Were the hijackers even practising muslims?

[miir]

There is a parallel with muslim radicals and the nazi radicals.

Are you fucking loony?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

are you disputing the fact stated as it was written?


by the way dumbfuck.....no one is discussing this on a Constitutional level but you.

[Sylvus]

So does that mean you believe that it is Muslim Radicals who are building this mosque and community center? Or that all Muslims in America are responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

You are aware that there has been a mosque closer to ground zero since before the World Trade Center was built?

[Hesten]

There is a parallel with muslim radicals and the nazi radicals. If the muslim extremists had their way, they would kill every single non-muslim on the planet. We are just lucky they do not have the backing of an army like the Germans had.

And if christian radicals have their way (and yes, we got those idiots in denmark too, the US dont have a monopoly on those, sadly, just in case you try to claim im US bashing), all moslims would also be killed. Luckily THOSE idiots dont have an army backing htem like the germans (which were CHRISTIAN) had.

So because a small minority of christians feel that way, should that also block building of churches? Or saying prayer involving gods name over any act commited by christian terrorists?

And before you say those dont exist, here are a few links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8593975.stm
http://blogs.chron.com/believeitornot/2 ... _no_r.html


Would it be unfitting to build a church on a place where christian fundamentalists have blown up an abortion clinic?

[miir]

are you disputing the fact stated as it was written?

Nazi 'radicals' (LOL) comprised 100% of the Nazi party.
If you ran into someone who's a Nazi, you can be pretty damn sure that they were involved directly with the murder of a lot of jews.

Muslim radicals comprise less than one half of one percent of all muslims.
If run into someone who is a muslim, you can be pretty damn sure thay had absolutely nothing to do with the WTC attacks.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

So does that mean you believe that it is Muslim Radicals who are building this mosque and community center? Or that all Muslims in America are responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

You are aware that there has been a mosque closer to ground zero since before the World Trade Center was built?

I don't care that there is a mosque that has been in existence there....that has no bearing whatsoever on this. They refuse to say WHO is funding this. It has been pretty well established that the funding for this has to be coming from outside sources and yet no one can say who. If it turned out that Al Queda was directly funding this, would you still be all for them building it?


let me edit this to say that I do not believe Al Queda is funding this before fuckface miir and xatrei pipe up with their bullshit

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

There is a parallel with muslim radicals and the nazi radicals. If the muslim extremists had their way, they would kill every single non-muslim on the planet. We are just lucky they do not have the backing of an army like the Germans had.

And if christian radicals have their way (and yes, we got those idiots in denmark too, the US dont have a monopoly on those, sadly, just in case you try to claim im US bashing), all moslims would also be killed. Luckily THOSE idiots dont have an army backing htem like the germans (which were CHRISTIAN) had.

The Germans were heavily Catholic, but the Nazi party was not a religion. They were just against certain religions.

So because a small minority of christians feel that way, should that also block building of churches? Or saying prayer involving gods name over any act commited by christian terrorists?

Again, NO ONE IS SAYING THEY CANNOT BUILD A FUCKING MOSQUE. THEY ARE SAYING IT WOULD BE IN POOR TASTE TO BUILD IT THERE. All this asshole has to do is move it a few blocks down and no one would be up in saying fuckall about it.

And before you say those dont exist, here are a few links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8593975.stm
http://blogs.chron.com/believeitornot/2 ... _no_r.html


Would it be unfitting to build a church on a place where christian fundamentalists have blown up an abortion clinic?

Yes...I believe it would be in poor taste to build a church where some whackjobs blew up a clinic in the name of Jesus.

[miir]

They refuse to say WHO is funding this. It has been pretty well established that the funding for this has to be coming from outside sources and yet no one can say who.

Companies that are privately owned are not required by law to disclose detailed financial and operating information.


Try harder.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

are you disputing the fact stated as it was written?

Nazi 'radicals' (LOL) comprised 100% of the Nazi party.
If you ran into someone who's a Nazi, you can be pretty damn sure that they were involved directly with the murder of a lot of jews.

Muslim radicals comprise less than one half of one percent of all muslims.
If run into someone who is a muslim, you can be pretty damn sure thay had absolutely nothing to do with the WTC attacks.

You are absolutely incorrect.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

They refuse to say WHO is funding this. It has been pretty well established that the funding for this has to be coming from outside sources and yet no one can say who.

Companies that are privately owned are not required by law to disclose detailed financial and operating information.


Try harder.

They are also not required by law to be given permits for building where they want.

[miir]

Again, NO ONE IS SAYING THEY CANNOT BUILD A FUCKING MOSQUE. THEY ARE SAYING IT WOULD BE IN POOR TASTE TO BUILD IT THERE. All this asshole has to do is move it a few blocks down and no one would be up in saying fuckall about it.

First off, it's not a mosque... it's a community center that will have prayer rooms.

How many blocks?
It's already 2 blocks away...
What would be appropriate... 3 blocks? 4 blocks? 59 blocks?

How do you determine the right distance to not hurt anyone's feelings?



Perhaps all muslims should not be allowed within 5 blocks of 'ground zero'...
A muslim showing their face at ground zero would be in POOR TASTE, right?



Fucking loony

[Sylvus]

So does that mean you believe that it is Muslim Radicals who are building this mosque and community center? Or that all Muslims in America are responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

You are aware that there has been a mosque closer to ground zero since before the World Trade Center was built?

I don't care that there is a mosque that has been in existence there....that has no bearing whatsoever on this. They refuse to say WHO is funding this. It has been pretty well established that the funding for this has to be coming from outside sources and yet no one can say who. If it turned out that Al Queda was directly funding this, would you still be all for them building it?


let me edit this to say that I do not believe Al Queda is funding this before fuckface miir and xatrei pipe up with their bullshit

If I saw some evidence that it were Al Qaeda funding this, it might give me pause. But I think it's far more likely that it is NOT Al Qaeda than that it IS.

If you look at the link for the existing mosque, you'll see that less than 20% of the people who worship there can even fit in their building, so people have to kneel down on the sidewalk outside. I have read other articles about people having to worship in basements and that there just aren't enough places to worship if your are Muslim and live in New York. It seems as if there is a legitimate need for a larger building in NYC. If they don't build it in this spot, but move 4 blocks away or 40 blocks away, do you think people aren't going to raise a similar stink? At what point does it end?

I don't know a lot about your concerns regarding the funding, but from what I've read about Feisal Abdul Rauf, the guy most often mentioned being behind this proposed building, it sounds like he has long worked for the integration of Muslims into American society. That sounds absolutely opposite what the radicals who attacked us on 9/11 were for.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

You really are not worth dealing with. You are part of a very small minority as the polling in NY suggests that over 60% of the people there do not want this. That tells me this is a bipartisan effort to have some actual compassion for the people there that lost loved ones in the attack. Whether you worthless fucks on here like it or not, I could care less. My hope is that those of you who think this is a great idea are the ones who are affected by the next attack. In case you think I am just making a statement, let me reiterate that I truly hope that any future attack by these extremists does indeed kill or maim someone close to you.

[Boogahz]

FUK U HITLER!

[miir]

the polling in NY suggests that over 60% of the people there do not want this

I saw a poll that suggested that over 60% of the people on the internet do not want Steven Tyler as a judge on American Idol.

[miir]

So Kilmoll and Metanis, do you think that constitutional rights should be selectively applied to muslim americans?

[Aabidano]

I think it's in pretty poor taste and antagonistic, but they have a right to do it, just as much as anyone else.

I read an article on Al Jazeera a couple weeks ago saying that while legal, it wasn't a bright idea, or a tasteful one. They made a particular point that 9/11 was still a very raw wound with many American and this was in effect rubbing salt in it.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

So does that mean you believe that it is Muslim Radicals who are building this mosque and community center? Or that all Muslims in America are responsible for the 9/11 attacks?

You are aware that there has been a mosque closer to ground zero since before the World Trade Center was built?

I don't care that there is a mosque that has been in existence there....that has no bearing whatsoever on this. They refuse to say WHO is funding this. It has been pretty well established that the funding for this has to be coming from outside sources and yet no one can say who. If it turned out that Al Queda was directly funding this, would you still be all for them building it?


let me edit this to say that I do not believe Al Queda is funding this before fuckface miir and xatrei pipe up with their bullshit

If I saw some evidence that it were Al Qaeda funding this, it might give me pause. But I think it's far more likely that it is NOT Al Qaeda than that it IS.

If you look at the link for the existing mosque, you'll see that less than 20% of the people who worship there can even fit in their building, so people have to kneel down on the sidewalk outside. I have read other articles about people having to worship in basements and that there just aren't enough places to worship if your are Muslim and live in New York. It seems as if there is a legitimate need for a larger building in NYC. If they don't build it in this spot, but move 4 blocks away or 40 blocks away, do you think people aren't going to raise a similar stink? At what point does it end?

I don't know a lot about your concerns regarding the funding, but from what I've read about Feisal Abdul Rauf, the guy most often mentioned being behind this proposed building, it sounds like he has long worked for the integration of Muslims into American society. That sounds absolutely opposite what the radicals who attacked us on 9/11 were for.

It is 600 feet from ground zero. means if you were sitting in the last row of seats in an end-zone at Ford Field, the mosque would still be in the building with you if it was on the other side. (note I am calling this a mosque because it is easier than calling it a community center blah blah blah whatever they have as the official name because it is shorter and we know what I am talking about). If this was a half mile away, I don't think we would be discussing it at all.

As for Rauf, he is also the same guy that blamed the US and Christianity for the attacks on 9/11. He has some ties with radicals from Hamas. Show people where it is coming from or they are going to think you are hiding something.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

So Kilmoll and Metanis, do you think that constitutional rights should be selectively applied to muslim americans?

God fucking damnit you non-reading trolling piece of monkey shit. IT has NOTHING to do with constitutional rights. No fucking one is arguing against their consititutional right to worship as they please. They DO have the right to choose what gets built per local laws.


I swear to Christ that if you had said that in front of me right then that I would have broken your jaw. You are as bad as fucking winnow with your one dimensional trolling.

[miir]

So your only argument is that they shouldn't build a 'mosque' there because some people might get butthurt.


Is that the best you can do?

[miir]

As for Rauf, he is also the same guy that blamed the US and Christianity for the attacks on 9/11. He has some ties with radicals from Hamas.

That's comical.
What right-wing blog did you glean those 'facts' from?

Found the quotes:

I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened. But the United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened

On refusing to say that Hamas is a terrorist group:

I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question... I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy

This totally looks like a site of an american hating, radical muslim!
http://www.asmasociety.org/home/

[Sylvus]

So we're all on the same page that they have every right to build the mosque wherever they like. Good, we can move on from that one.

Now we'll just have to determine the character of Feisal Abdul Rauf. It is true that he said that US policy was an accessory to [9/11]. Do you disagree with that? He specifically said in the same quote that we didn't deserve to be attacked, so is it so bad to point out that US support of Israel (note: I'm assuming that was at least part of the policy that he speaks of; I could be wrong) was a contributing factor to us being attacked. Isn't that pretty generally accepted as fact?

As far as "ties" to Hamas, what kind of factual evidence is there of that? He knows a couple guys who are reported to be higher up in Hamas? Are the ties closer than, say, the Bush family ties to the bin Laden family? (Please note I'm not trying to use this as an attack on Bush, rather to shed some light on how "ties" don't necessarily mean shit)

As far as it being "in poor taste" to build there, why is it in poor taste? For the sake of argument, let's just pretend (since we don't have any proof either way) that this place is being built by a group of peace-loving Muslims who found 9/11 to be an unprovoked, abhorrent action taken by the lunatic fringe of their religion. People that are no more similar to them than all people who have blue eyes are to me, all Americans are to you or all people who once played Everquest are to each other.

I believe that you've identified yourself as a Christian of some flavor, Kilmoll, surely there must be some other Christians that you look at and can't even fathom how they can call themselves the same religion as you. Is it fair to paint you all with the same brush? If someone said "Hey, you're a Christian! You can't carry a gun because of these 20 Christians who used their guns to kill abortion doctors!", do you think you'd say "You know what, you're right, that's insensitive of me, here take this and dispose of it for me"? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't even consider that for a second.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I would have to look up the names and such, but I know that he has some ties to people in CAIR...which is baically the US representative for Hamas according to the U.S. http://www.pipelinenews.org/images/HLFCAIRAmicus.pdf

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf seems to have an irresistible attraction to extremists and terrorists, in spite of frequent declarations that he is a peacemaker and a “bridge builder.” He has stated that the Islamic community center and grand mosque he wants to build would be “about promoting integration, tolerance of difference, and community cohesion through arts and culture.”

So what was he doing at a 2007 conference in Indonesia of an international terrorist group seeking a global caliphate?

Hizb-ut Tahrir al Islami (Islamic Party of Liberation) has been banned in many countries — Germany, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Kazakhstan, and Saudi Arabia — but not in the United States or Britain.

Hmmmmm

This quote from that same group is for you and Miir who ridiculed me for my paralleling radical Islam with the radicals the Nazi party turned into.

Ata Abu-Rishta, the international head of Hizb-ut Tahrir, is said to have “whipped the 100,000-strong crowd” at the August 2007 annual conference in Jakarta, Indonesia, “into a frenzy … by calling for a war on Jews.” Rishta has also declared that it is “permissible” to kill Jews in Israel, and by extension, everywhere: “There can be no peaceful relations with the Jews: this is prohibited by Islamic law.”

Hizb-ut Tahrir posted an article on its website in 2000 citing a well-known hadith calling for the wholesale murder of Jews: “The stones and trees will say: O Muslim, O Slave of Allah. Here is a Jew behind me so come and kill him.” In Germany in 2003, the group was barred from public speaking because it called for the killing of Jews.

On March 24, 2010, Abdul Rauf is quoted in an article in Arabic for the website Rights4All entitled “The Most Prominent Imam in New York: ‘I Do Not Believe in Religious Dialogue.’” Yes, you read that correctly and, yes, that is an accurate translation of Abdul Rauf. And Right4All is not an obscure blog, but the website of the media department of Cairo University, the leading educational institution of the Arabic-speaking world.

He’s also directly tied to the Islamist flotilla that tried to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza:

The imam behind a proposed mosque near Ground Zero is a prominent member of a group that helped sponsor the pro-Palestinian activists who clashed violently with Israeli commandos at sea this week.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is a key figure in Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, according to its Website.

Perdana is the single biggest donor ($366,000) so far to the Free Gaza Movement, a key organizer of the six-ship flotilla that tried to break Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-run Gaza Strip Monday.

Nine passengers aboard the largest ship died in clashes with Israeli commandos, and a new confrontation loomed today, when another Free Gaza Movement ship was due to reach Gaza waters in defiance of Israel.

Here’s a direct link to the Perdana Global Peace Organization’s website highlighting Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf.

As for your scenario, that would be akin to me saying that righteous muslims should not use box cutters or fly on airplanes since those were the weapons used for the mass murder at the twin towers. If I was building a cross across the street from the abortion clinic, then yes I would say you were right.

[Aabidano]

As far as the in poor taste comment, while not a good comparison but you could liken it to Christians wanting to build a church across the the street from the site of the Kaaba, a couple years after Fred Phelps & Co had destroyed it by detonating Ann Coulter figurines made of C4 cleverly hidden in in their anuses.

Silly example but you get the point.

I agree that the people in question very likely had nothing to do with 9\11, and are just as if not more offended over it than I am.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Let me also ask you this....how about we allow that mosque to be built and in return they allow a Baptist church in Mecca? How would that go over?

[Fairweather Pure]

I can't believe you're still attempting rational discourse with a man that hopes you or your loved ones are killed by terrorists. At the very least, he wants to punch you in the face. He is a shining example of the blatant hypocrisy that is so prevalent amoungst the christian right.

Hide behind the Constitution when it's convenient and forget it exists when it stands in your way.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

btw....what the hell kind of grammar was used in the subject line of this thread? I have no idea what he was even trying to say

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I can't believe you're still attempting rational discourse with a man that hopes you or your loved ones are killed by terrorists. At the very least, he wants to punch you in the face. He is a shining example of the blatant hypocrisy that is so prevalent amoungst the christian right.

Hide behind the Constitution when it's convenient and forget it exists when it stands in your way.

yet another fucking moron blathering about a Constitutional right that has absolutely zero bearing on this discussion

[Fairweather Pure]

yet another fucking moron blathering about a Constitutional right that has absolutely zero bearing on this discussion

I'll stop saying Constitution when you stop saying mosque, puppet.

[miir]

So the best you can come up with is unsourced links from questionable right-wing blogs?
There's a reason why reputable media outlets don't report those 'facts'.

how about we allow that mosque to be built and in return they allow a Baptist church in Mecca?

- Lower Manhattan has ZERO religious significance in Christianity
- Saudi Aribia is not bound by the US Constitution


Keep trying.. at least that one is a little bit more appropriate than your stupid nazi comparison.