Obama - all words no substance? ... (the answer seems clear)

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 16, 2009, 12:44 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8052999.stm

Civil liberties groups have reacted angrily to US President Barack Obama's decision to revive military trials for some Guantanamo Bay detainees.

Mr Obama has previously denounced the Bush-era judicial system, but in a statement said new safeguards would ensure suspects got a fairer hearing.

New rules include rejecting statements obtained from harsh interrogations and limitations on using hearsay evidence.

There are still 240 detainees at the US base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

I read the Audacity of Truth a few years ago and had a bit of faith in the guy. It's becoming pretty clear that once in office he has little regard for foreign policy, and the platform he was so ready to stand on just a few months ago is being eroded from his mouth downwards.

He has already altered a few notable things (stem cells, abortion, abstinence funding, prayer days) - but he has severely backtracked his entire foreign policy idealogy with this one.

It's utter bullshit.

Obama has a long way to go before he can begin to consider his promises fulfilled, and this is a major step backwards. I'm seriously disappointed with this ruling. He seems severely fraudulent - especially given the reports from Guantanamo bay that have been coming out in the press in the last month or two (which are, even by US standards, perpetually despicable).

I virtually couldn't have been more pro-Obama if I had tried a few months ago - but this a serious case of hawks masquerading as doves. I'm starting to see Winnow's point of view (fucking hell :O)

What a disgusting decision by Obama. Utterly disgusting. He can go and fuck himself (for now).

Fash · Post by **Fash** » May 16, 2009, 1:46 am

Told you so?...

Hey, I voted for him too, and I think it's pretty sad looking at his first 100 days. Even the stem cell issue, which got so much press, has so many new limitations that not everyone is celebrating, (source.)

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » May 16, 2009, 3:11 am

I've said all along, he was too moderate. While his personal ideology might lay further to the left than his record indicates, he's ultimately a pragmatist and has to work within the constraints of our shitty system of government. There are too many right-of-center Democratic senators and members of his administration to be able to do as much as I think (hope?) he might like to do. He's taking longer than I'd like to address many issues, and is being forced to compromise too much on health-care and other important issues. Whenever I vote for a Democratic candidate, it's always because it's better than the alternative rather than because their ideology matches my own (far to the left of 98% of the Democrats in our government). In that regard, even though I'd like to see a lot more from him in any number of areas, it's hard for me to be disappointed by him doing exactly what I expected him to do. In the end, he may not be perfect, but he and all the other Democrats are far better than the other options we were had.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » May 16, 2009, 8:01 am

Err, he just changed the framework and it will throw out most of the prosecution's evidence.

There guys will be, in all likelyhood, free men within the year.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2009, 3:00 pm

too funny : )

You were duped by his charisma. Hes a glamor president, just like Clinton. Party on Obama! The first 100 days disappointment is going to quickly turn into the first 365 days disappointment, and so on.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » May 16, 2009, 5:53 pm

Who was duped? No one on the left would be willing to vote for McCain. It's a matter of choosing the best available candidate, which Obama was. Even though there have been some disappointments along the way, no one complaining about those things would be happier with that shithead from Arizona.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 16, 2009, 7:39 pm

I guess I'm curious as to what everyone thinks he should do. How do you handle foreign nationals with no other framework? Honestly do Americans want these people in the US itself, standing trial in civilian criminal courts? Its an issue Canadians had to face up to when there were allegations of prisoner mistreatment and abuse in Afghanistan with combatants the Canadian forces turned over to the Afghans themselves: the left leaning media and politicos screamed bloody murder but no one wants to spend the millions that it would take to build and staff a western style prison in Afghanistan itself and we damned well don't want them in our system/prisons here (and to be ultimately responsible for them upon release).

Whats a better solution? Everyone complains but no one wants to put out any ideas.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » May 16, 2009, 9:14 pm

I think it's pretty obvious the Obama presidency is a failure and there's only one clear thing to do: Impeach Obama. Let's get McCain and Palin in there where they belong and let's get this country back on track!

Spang · Post by **Spang** » May 16, 2009, 10:27 pm

COUNTRY FIRST!!!

Gnomies · Post by **Gnomies** » May 17, 2009, 12:30 am

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » May 17, 2009, 8:00 am

I really don't understand why people are so upset with this. The problem wasn't the tribunals, it was the lack of oversight and transparency during them. I'll wait and see how the tribunals are handled before I pass judgement.

From Nick's very own quote:

Mr Obama has previously denounced the Bush-era judicial system, but in a statement said new safeguards would ensure suspects got a fairer hearing.

New rules include rejecting statements obtained from harsh interrogations and limitations on using hearsay evidence.

As far as all words and no substance...Bullshit. I've been following Obama since he first came to the Senate and he always be one thing- a pragmatist. The thing that attracted me to him in the first place, and still does, is his willingness to empathize with many points of view. However I think he's being too careful not to upset those right of middle and is ending up angering those on his own side (including me on several cases). He has a lot of political capital and he's not using it...yet.

I'm hoping he realizes that absolutely nothing he can do will please those on the right- they still call him a socialist and still say everything he does is sympathizing with terrorists. Or they say he's a liar and a fraud for NOT being the liberal they feared he would be.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 17, 2009, 7:59 pm

I think you had unreasonable expectations. He is doing everything pretty much in line with what I had hoped and expected. Obama is doing everything he can within the confines of his power and abilities.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 18, 2009, 1:09 am

Hmm, apologism is totally the way forward guyz.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 18, 2009, 1:40 am

Nick wrote:Hmm, apologism is totally the way forward guyz.

While you announcing your dissappointment that he didn't change the world is better how?

I like what Obama is doing. You don't. Why would I apologize?

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » May 18, 2009, 1:59 am

Nick wrote:Hmm, apologism is totally the way forward guyz.

What the hell would we have to apologize for? It is your own credulity that is at fault. You convinced yourself that a center left candidate would become a hard left president, when it was blatantly obvious that going hard left is not at all pragmatic. Obama never advertised himself as anything less than the most pragmatic option. The left will be conceding more and more as the years go by. That will not anger me since that is how democracy is supposed to work. What you want, Nick, is a leftist version of George W. Bush. No thanks.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » May 18, 2009, 7:36 am

My guess is that "new and improved" military tribunals is the least bad choice given the questionable legal status of those detainees. That's me apologistizing.

I must admit I'm spending less time Obamawatching now that my own government is strangling itself with incompetence and corruption.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » May 18, 2009, 8:11 am

The remainder at gitmo aren't nice, accidentally swept up people, his tune concerning them changed right after he was briefed on the subject. He's implemented the changes he said were needed before he was elected so that they should get a reasonably fair and open trial.

As far as his presidency goes, I remain "cautiously optimistic" as a friend put it. He seems to be keeping the 3 horsemen of idiocy (Kennedy, Pelosi, Frank) on a tight leash so things may well turn out OK.

Edit -

vn_Tanc wrote:My guess is that "new and improved" military tribunals is the least bad choice given the questionable legal status of those detainees.

As non-uniformed, unidentified persons bearing arms in a combat zone these people have essentially no rights under the Geneva convention.

Which of course doesn't mean we have permission to torture them or treat them inhumanely. They can be summarily executed though if I remember my training on the subject.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 18, 2009, 9:22 am

vn_Tanc wrote:My guess is that "new and improved" military tribunals is the least bad choice given the questionable legal status of those detainees. That's me apologistizing.

I must admit I'm spending less time Obamawatching now that my own government is strangling itself with incompetence and corruption.

That "putting in claims for dog food and porn" scandal is pretty loltastic.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » May 18, 2009, 9:31 am

Keverian FireCry wrote:I really don't understand why people are so upset with this. The problem wasn't the tribunals, it was the lack of oversight and transparency during them. I'll wait and see how the tribunals are handled before I pass judgement.

You guys are so funny. Keep tossing those buzz words around to keep the feel good vibes going.

Fairweather Pure wrote:I think you had unreasonable expectations. He is doing everything pretty much in line with what I had hoped and expected. Obama is doing everything he can within the confines of his power and abilities.

You are exactly right, a good number of the people that voted for this guy had severely unreasonable expectations of him, they basically expected the second coming of christ and now that they realize they may have aimed a little high some of them (nick) are already starting to get pissed.

Xatrei wrote:Who was duped? No one on the left would be willing to vote for McCain. It's a matter of choosing the best available candidate, which Obama was. Even though there have been some disappointments along the way, no one complaining about those things would be happier with that shithead from Arizona.

Not true. It was not a matter of people not really LOVING Obama but just not wanting to vote for McCain.. People were freaking out over how great he was and how he could do no wrong.

It's funny watching people start to back pedal already.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 18, 2009, 9:39 am

Most of the people who have/had unrealistic expectations of Obama are nut-jobs like Nick and the right-wing pundits who were trying to set him up for failure.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » May 18, 2009, 10:23 am

Who is back-pedaling?

Unlike the rest of you right-wing tards I'm actually giving the guy a chance just as I gave Bush a chance when he was "elected" the first time. Does that mean not to be critical? Obviously not. But I'm not going to jump up and down screaming that he's a failure either because I disagree with every single thing he does this early in his presidency.

It's very obvious that the republicans/conservatives/right wingers (whatever they are called) do not want to see Obama succeed. Which is sad because they'd rather have the chance to say "Told you so" than to see him succeed and get this country at least heading somewhat the right direction. Hey guess what. They had 8 years to get it right and they blew it and now it's somebody elese's turn. Stop crying about it and shut the fuck up already.

Funkmasterr wrote:People were freaking out over how great he was and how he could do no wrong.

Oh look another example of Funk totally pulling shit out of his ass and trying to pass it off as if it actually representative of reality in any fashion. There's a shocker.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » May 18, 2009, 10:35 am

Aslanna wrote:Who is back-pedaling?

Unlike the rest of you right-wing tards I'm actually giving the guy a chance just as I gave Bush a chance when he was "elected" the first time. Does that mean not to be critical? Obviously not. But I'm not going to jump up and down screaming that he's a failure either because I disagree with every single thing he does this early in his presidency.

It's very obvious that the republicans/conservatives/right wingers (whatever they are called) do not want to see Obama succeed. Which is sad because they'd rather have the chance to say "Told you so" than to see him succeed and get this country at least heading somewhat the right direction. Hey guess what. They had 8 years to get it right and they blew it and now it's somebody elese's turn. Stop crying about it and shut the fuck up already.

Funkmasterr wrote:People were freaking out over how great he was and how he could do no wrong.
Oh look another example of Funk totally pulling shit out of his ass and trying to pass it off as if it actually representative of reality in any fashion. There's a shocker.

Obviously my back-pedaling comment wasn't aimed at you. It's kinda hard to do that when 99% of your posts consist of less than ten words.

How am I pulling shit out of my ass? Look at the crazed way people acted at his rallies. Look at the post history here and tell me that people just thought he was the "better alternative". It's complete bullshit and you trying to say I'm off base is laughable.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » May 18, 2009, 11:15 am

Funkmasterr wrote:It's kinda hard to do that when 99% of your posts consist of less than ten words.

Oh hey there he goes making shit up again.

There you go. That was 9 words for you. Better bump that up to 100%.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » May 18, 2009, 11:46 am

Aslanna wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:It's kinda hard to do that when 99% of your posts consist of less than ten words.
Oh hey there he goes making shit up again.

There you go. That was 9 words for you. Better bump that up to 100%.

Has to be a little margin for error, shit happens!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » May 18, 2009, 12:47 pm

I gots no problems with his term so far. There is a lot of shit to repair in this country.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » May 18, 2009, 3:25 pm

Eight years (more like 24 if you count from Reagan, Bush 1, and Clinton) of fuckups cannot be undone in a short time frame while keeping the frothing mouth wingnuts from engaging in armed rebellion. Considering what he inherrited and who he has to deal with, I think he is doing a remarkable job. He also has a tremendous work ethic, which makes him probably the most solid centrist we have had since Truman or Eisenhower. He is more centrist than Clinton, who's greatest sin was probably going along with the Reagan era deregulation bandwagon. But fundementally, Xyun is correct. He is a pragmatist and that is exactly what we need right now if we are going to get this country out of the hole it has dug itself into.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » May 18, 2009, 4:59 pm

...they basically expected the second coming of christ and now that they realize they may have aimed a little high some of them (nick) are already starting to get pissed.

I'm getting some good chuckles out of it myself.

This is the same as happened to Clinton term 1, the "middle left" (Hollywood, etc..) were really pissed when they realized they'd voted for a moderate. The far left never liked either Clinton or Obama to start with.

I told you this was going to happen back in September-October. People are waking up and realizing "Change!" takes a lot of work in our plutocracy

He's seems to be doing well enough given the circumstances, we'll see how it turns out long term. I wish him well.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 18, 2009, 5:17 pm

So who exactly are these people who were expecting 'the second coming of christ'?
Who exactly is surprised/shocked/pissed at how Obama has performed in the past few months?

Other than every single conservative pundit and political idiots like Nick, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that he's doing a pretty darn good job so far.
It's seems to be only the right-wing pundits who are worried that Obama really isn't as ultra-liberal, left-wing socialist as they had hoped he would be.
A moderate liberal president doesn't really give them much fuel to spark partisan outrage amongst their listeners/viewers. Their ratings have probably gone right into the shitter now that their viewers/listeners are starting to realise that Obama is not going to turn their country into a socialist state.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » May 19, 2009, 4:13 am

I voted for Obama, I am not knocked out by his performance, but I am taking a wait and see stance. I really hope he can deliver on his promises. I hope he can keep Pelosi under control, she scares the crap out of me. I see her and am reminded of a left leaning version Newt and his cronies.

As for Biden, why is he getting a free pass on all his idiotic comments? If Palin said any one of those things she would be crucified. I have to wonder if Obama is thinking, "just 1 term of this shit and he is gone!"

Spang · Post by **Spang** » May 19, 2009, 6:13 am

Tyek wrote:As for Biden, why is he getting a free pass on all his idiotic comments? If Palin said any one of those things she would be crucified. I have to wonder if Obama is thinking, "just 1 term of this shit and he is gone!"

Biden has to act retarded.

It's called assassination prevention.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » May 19, 2009, 6:33 am

I don't get it, Spang.

Obama is doing as much good as I'd expect out of somebody purchased by a small group of wealthy people.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » May 19, 2009, 9:57 am

Most of the super retarded shit is coming from Obama's cabinet and his Dem leaders in Congress. It is basically the liberal version of Bush with his crew of merry idiots like Wolfowitz, Cheney, Newt, etc. They really need to put a leash on Pelosi and make it super short. Obama's biggest screwups to this point are really his appointed positions. Those are the people that end up in positions of power that scare people more so than Obama does.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » May 19, 2009, 12:31 pm

Don't even try to compare the current cabinet to the bunch of nepotistic partisan hacks that were just in those positions. "Heck of a job Brownie" ring any bells? There are some fucking morons in the Dem leadership to be sure, but Obama can't exactly fire Pelosi or Reed......

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » May 19, 2009, 1:27 pm

Don't kid yourself. He has them in place already....they just have not been exposed to that degree yet. Much like the appointees for Treasury that couldn't even do their own taxes.....it is just a matter of time before they show up in big messes.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » May 19, 2009, 3:01 pm

Jice Virago wrote:Eight years (more like 24 if you count from Reagan, Bush 1, and Clinton) of fuckups cannot be undone in a short time frame while keeping the frothing mouth wingnuts from engaging in armed rebellion. Considering what he inherrited and who he has to deal with, I think he is doing a remarkable job. He also has a tremendous work ethic, which makes him probably the most solid centrist we have had since Truman or Eisenhower. He is more centrist than Clinton, who's greatest sin was probably going along with the Reagan era deregulation bandwagon. But fundementally, Xyun is correct. He is a pragmatist and that is exactly what we need right now if we are going to get this country out of the hole it has dug itself into.

You're right, when things are as horrible as everyone is making them out to be, some of the first things I think someone with great work ethic in his position would do would be NCAA brackets, concerts/dinner parties at the white house, basketball games with friends, etc.

Just sayin.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » May 19, 2009, 3:34 pm

Yes because no one has hobbies on the side to maintain their sanity.....
And clearing brush and taking the most vacation days of any civil servant in the history is the sign of a genious intellect hard working president..

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 19, 2009, 3:51 pm

Question for Nick:

Could you name for me a national leader or two who you do like and respect and admire? Thanks.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » May 19, 2009, 3:52 pm

Jice Virago wrote:Yes because no one has hobbies on the side to maintain their sanity.....
And clearing brush and taking the most vacation days of any civil servant in the history is the sign of a genious intellect hard working president..

Desperate times call for desperate measures, hobbies shouldn't be a concern right now..

And how did I know you were going to try and draw a comparison. We are talking about Obama here, no one else.

By the way, genious isn't a word. Genius.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » May 19, 2009, 3:52 pm

Sueven wrote:Question for Nick:

Could you name for me a national leader or two who you do like and respect and admire? Thanks.

Quit deflecting, you American apologist asshole scumbag!

(did i get that right?)

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » May 19, 2009, 5:18 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:Yes because no one has hobbies on the side to maintain their sanity.....
And clearing brush and taking the most vacation days of any civil servant in the history is the sign of a genious intellect hard working president..
Desperate times call for desperate measures, hobbies shouldn't be a concern right now..

And how did I know you were going to try and draw a comparison. We are talking about Obama here, no one else.

By the way, genious isn't a word. Genius.

The comparison is valid because it illustrates how retarded you are, oh and how this debate is an utter waste of time. You can't vilify one man for a brief diversion when you starkly defended another man who, by all accounts, didn't give a shit.

hobbies shouldn't be a concern right now ... now that one really made me laugh ... sometimes you are quite dumb. not all the time, but sometimes.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 19, 2009, 5:24 pm

Quit deflecting, you American apologist asshole scumbag!

(did i get that right?)

Hopefully not! I'm genuinely curious. But maybe.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » May 19, 2009, 5:52 pm

Gzette wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:Yes because no one has hobbies on the side to maintain their sanity.....
And clearing brush and taking the most vacation days of any civil servant in the history is the sign of a genious intellect hard working president..
Desperate times call for desperate measures, hobbies shouldn't be a concern right now..

And how did I know you were going to try and draw a comparison. We are talking about Obama here, no one else.

By the way, genious isn't a word. Genius.
The comparison is valid because it illustrates how retarded you are, oh and how this debate is an utter waste of time. You can't vilify one man for a brief diversion when you starkly defended another man who, by all accounts, didn't give a shit.

hobbies shouldn't be a concern right now ... now that one really made me laugh ... sometimes you are quite dumb. not all the time, but sometimes.

I am not defending Bush. Quit making it about him, for one minute of your life. I am coming to understand just how difficult that is for some of you, but at least try.

That being said, if you insist on drawing the comparison - if Bush had been spending as much time on (at least to our knowledge) whatever hobbies he has during say.. 911, he would have been crucified. That's part of his position, when there are pressing issues that need to be taken care of - you don't have Stevie Wonder over to the crib to jam out, you don't do brackets with your college friends, etc.

And for the record, I'm not going out of my way to slam Obama. What I am doing is pointing out how idiotic and hypocritical the majority of the people that post here are.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » May 19, 2009, 7:06 pm

"A president is never off." - Sean Hannity

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » May 19, 2009, 8:14 pm

i wish i had bought a bunch of stock in my company when it dropped to like 1.02 under bush cuz now its at like 7.80 and going up every week

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 19, 2009, 8:55 pm

Funkmasterr wrote: That being said, if you insist on drawing the comparison - if Bush had been spending as much time on (at least to our knowledge) whatever hobbies he has during say.. 911, he would have been crucified. That's part of his position, when there are pressing issues that need to be taken care of - you don't have Stevie Wonder over to the crib to jam out, you don't do brackets with your college friends, etc.

And for the record, I'm not going out of my way to slam Obama. What I am doing is pointing out how idiotic and hypocritical the majority of the people that post here are.

2 things.

1. The only people that attempted to deify Obama prior to the election were right-wing nutjobs.

2. If accepting your own candidate has feet of clay is hypocritical, I'd much rather they're flaming hypocrites that hold a hypocrites mardi gras, than them pushing the "he's the president and we should agree blindly to everything he says in faux war time" line and general blind acceptance/defense of someone that belongs to your political party.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » May 19, 2009, 10:58 pm

I voted for Obama. I'm still glad I did. I'd still do it again.

I don't agree 100% with everything he's done, and didn't agree 100% with everything he promised or said during his campaign, I never thought he was a savior and I certainly never thought he was or ever would be perfect -- but I'm 100% happy with the job he's doing so far. I couldn't do any better, George <insert any letter here> Bush couldn't/didn't do any better and John McCain couldn't do any better.

So you funbags and all of the poor excuses for news that we have here in this country can explode over every single "Aha! Told you so!" moment you want to in order to try to make him look bad. The joke on you is that for most of us, we aren't taking the bait anymore. We know we're better now than we were last year and will continue to be so. Joe the Plumber? Still? Really? Rush Limbaugh? Ever? Really?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 20, 2009, 1:13 am

What the hell would we have to apologize for? It is your own credulity that is at fault. You convinced yourself that a center left candidate would become a hard left president, when it was blatantly obvious that going hard left is not at all pragmatic. Obama never advertised himself as anything less than the most pragmatic option. The left will be conceding more and more as the years go by. That will not anger me since that is how democracy is supposed to work. What you want, Nick, is a leftist version of George W. Bush. No thanks.

You're a fucking idiot pseudo intellectual Obama fanboy if ever there was one.

The issue is black and white, you simply have too much to lose, with you're Obama sucking for months on end. The issue is very straightforward to everyone on the planet. American's are the worlds children when it comes to Politics. It's hardly HARD LEFT to wish Guantanamo was closed. Isn't that one of the reasons you voted for him? You fucking half assed shill.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » May 20, 2009, 7:12 am

edit: nm, not going there

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » May 20, 2009, 8:32 am

I'll give Nick one thing, he's been consistent pre- and post election. Which can't be said for most of the Obama supporters.

1. The only people that attempted to deify Obama prior to the election were right-wing nutjobs.

Errr.... huh?

I could, but won't bother rattling off half a dozen names from here, none of whom could be considered right wing. All expected "Change!" and have now softened their expectation significantly (and realistically).

I keep thinking of the Obama supporters in the South Park election episode

Edit - http://www.southparkstudios.com/guide/1212/

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 20, 2009, 8:53 am

Nick wrote:The issue is black and white

Never go into politics.