Honest question about fundamental beliefs

What do you think about the world?
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Funkmasterr
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Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

I am not going to get into a shitfest, so if this turns into one I'll just stop responding.

It seems to me that more and more of the ideas I hear from Obama seem to be kinda socialist. I don't understand why people feel that others who can't, or more importantly won't do things for themselves should get help. As I've said in previous posts, I'm ok with very minimal welfare type things for people that are basically bed ridden or otherwise unable to function for medical reasons, but other than that I'm not.

Contrary to what Obama stated to the over-excited kid at his town hall discussion in Florida (xyun? ;) ), even McDonald's provides (or at least did when i was younger) health insurance for their employees. I firmly believe that anyone that applies themselves to accomplish whatever their goal in life is, can be successful. By successful I don't necessarily mean wealthy, but at least able to live a normal life.

Bottom line for me is this; I don't want a penny of my money going to anyone (for anything) to get some kind of service/whatever that I pay for myself, unless they are 110% incapable of doing it themselves, and can prove it beyond doubt. Also, health insurance is not a right, it's a privilege and should remain that way in my opinion.
The only exception would be for people who would live in torment or die if they don't take a medicine and they can't afford it, but there are plenty of programs for these types of situation (I know this because my mom uses Enbrel which is a very expensive drug, and my mom gets assistance for it because she can't afford it.) Speaking of Enbrel, my dermatologist just told me I should take it too, or have joint replacement surgery later in life, that is one nasty drug :(

And before you try and say that I feel this way because it doesn't effect me or I don't see it firsthand, one of my brothers works for GM and will very possibly lose his job soon, the other is collecting unemployment, and my parents are in foreclosure on their house. I don't feel that any of them should get help from the gov't, meaning I don't feel different because it's happening to people I care about.

So what is your thought process/reasoning for wanting the government to step in and "help" people.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Sueven »

There are a lot of ways to answer this question, but I'll keep it short, philosophical, and fundamental.

Thinking about humans as individualistic beings is fundamentally ill-conceived. We are social, communal animals. We always have been. We have responsibilities and obligations not just to ourselves and to our families, but to broader society as well.

Ayn Rand is not reality.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

Sueven wrote:There are a lot of ways to answer this question, but I'll keep it short, philosophical, and fundamental.

Thinking about humans as individualistic beings is fundamentally ill-conceived. We are social, communal animals. We always have been. We have responsibilities and obligations not just to ourselves and to our families, but to broader society as well.

Ayn Rand is not reality.
Responsibility is the key here, though. Many of the people in the categories I'm speaking of are arguably very irresponsible, so why should we take responsibility for them if they refuse to do it themselves?
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Spang »

Funkmasterr wrote:Responsibility is the key here, though. Many of the people in the categories I'm speaking of are arguably very irresponsible, so why should we take responsibility for them if they refuse to do it themselves?
Because clearly they can't do it for themselves. Just look back at the last 8 years for evidence.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:Responsibility is the key here, though. Many of the people in the categories I'm speaking of are arguably very irresponsible, so why should we take responsibility for them if they refuse to do it themselves?
Because clearly they can't do it for themselves. Just look back at the last 8 years for evidence.
There's a difference between your sentiment that the government did not do a good job/take responsibility for their actions the last 8 years, and a individual not taking responsibility for their life.

One effects us all in a strong way and may last for a long time, the other effects the individual in question and those around them for as long as they continue to be irresponsible. "Helping" people like this is just enabling them, and allowing them to be as lazy as they care to be while the rest of us carry the load.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Sueven wrote:There are a lot of ways to answer this question, but I'll keep it short, philosophical, and fundamental.

Thinking about humans as individualistic beings is fundamentally ill-conceived. We are social, communal animals. We always have been. We have responsibilities and obligations not just to ourselves and to our families, but to broader society as well.

Ayn Rand is not reality.
Most social and communal animals do not provide for those that serve no purpose other than to burden the rest.

In your own example here, we are worrying more about providing for the lazy individuals than we are about providing for the society as a whole. If we eliminated the social programs for the people that are purposefully burdening us, we could afford to help ALL of the people who truly need it.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Sueven »

Funk wrote:Responsibility is the key here, though. Many of the people in the categories I'm speaking of are arguably very irresponsible, so why should we take responsibility for them if they refuse to do it themselves?
Society is responsible for itself. You are part of society; so are the people you're criticizing.
Kilmoll wrote:Most social and communal animals do not provide for those that serve no purpose other than to burden the rest.
This is not true. Most social animals protect the weak, elderly, injured, young, etc. Additionally, we like to think of ourselves as somehow above other animals. It's unclear what it means to be above other animals, but most of our philosophical traditions, from Christianity to Humanism, strongly hint that part of this distinction is our desire to help the weak, be compassionate, etc.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

Sueven wrote:
Funk wrote:Responsibility is the key here, though. Many of the people in the categories I'm speaking of are arguably very irresponsible, so why should we take responsibility for them if they refuse to do it themselves?
Society is responsible for itself. You are part of society; so are the people you're criticizing.
Kilmoll wrote:Most social and communal animals do not provide for those that serve no purpose other than to burden the rest.
This is not true. Most social animals protect the weak, elderly, injured, young, etc. Additionally, we like to think of ourselves as somehow above other animals. It's unclear what it means to be above other animals, but most of our philosophical traditions, from Christianity to Humanism, strongly hint that part of this distinction is our desire to help the weak, be compassionate, etc.
Ok, I see your point. I don't agree, which I knew would be the case, but I was interested.

Edit: Note that while I'm not necessarily arguing or disagreeing with Kilmoll's point, I don't think you are right about the animals. Most runts die, many misfits are pushed out of the herd (or whatever), many injured are left behind. I would argue that your your comment is not accurate.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by cadalano »

your criticism of welfare systems seems to be entirely from the angle that some people take advantage of them. thats the only angle i'll touch on

providing care for those who need it and deserve it is worth the reality that any such state systematic care can be and often will be abused. and not just by recipients of benefits, but also agencies involved in providing care, insurance companies, and so on. I don't condone the abuse but I tolerate it because I understand that it is unavoidable. In your case I'm inferring that you think it that it is possible to avoid it but I disagree. Obviously I would prefer to see it minimized if not eliminated in any way possible as long as deserving people in need are still provided for. The reality is that no system can do that without introducing either the possibility of abuse or the possibility that someone who truly deserves to be provided for will not be.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

cadalano wrote:your criticism of welfare systems seems to be entirely from the angle that some people take advantage of them. thats the only angle i'll touch on

providing care for those who need it and deserve it is worth the reality that any such state systematic care can be and often will be abused. and not just by recipients of benefits, but also agencies involved in providing care, insurance companies, and so on. I don't condone the abuse but I tolerate it because I understand that it is unavoidable. In your case I'm inferring that you think it that it is possible to avoid it but I disagree. Obviously I would prefer to see it minimized if not eliminated in any way possible as long as deserving people in need are still provided for. The reality is that no system can do that without introducing either the possibility of abuse or the possibility that someone who truly deserves to be provided for will not be.
That's understandable, although some people getting left behind is always a risk that (imo) is an acceptable risk. Do you also feel that health care is a right and that all people should be guaranteed coverage at others expense.

Where, exactly, is the incentive to do great and be wealthy and successful (aka "The American Dream") if you are going to be forced to give and give and give to other people who did not make the same efforts and sacrifices along the road of life that you did? I sure know that goodwill and the desire to help others has nothing to do with why I want to be successful and have money.

Edit: Also, I do believe that we could do a LOT to DRASTICALLY reduce the amount of abuse of our welfare system. Of course there are always gonna be those people on either side of the fence like you stated, but right now it's out of control.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Gzette »

There are many reasons I support universal health care. Personally, I don't feel anyone should be denied health care based on income. Sure, I've got health insurance through my employer. But if I had kids there would be no way I could afford a $700 a month policy on top of other expenses. It would be way too expensive. I don't consider myself undeserving. I contribute. I don't feel Dr.s or people in general should be forced to deny someone the care they need just because they don't make a certain amount of money.

There is a cost issue that should be noted. There is potential for universal health care to actually save money. The problem with the current system is, people who can't afford insurance will wait until a health problem becomes catastrophic before they seek health care. Thus, instead of costing the system a few thousand dollars over the course of a couple years for preventative care, they now are racking up a six-figure health bill that will never be paid. This is a major contributor to why health care is so expensive.

The analogy to other animals is a valid argument, what with social Darwinism and all that. But I thought the beauty of the human race was that we are beyond basic animal thought and compassion. It's relatively cruel to think in those terms IMO.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Spang »

Everyone deserves affordable health care. Having a healthy society is a good thing. On that same note, having an educated society is also a good thing.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Bubba Grizz »

I believe the concept is, "A healthy American is a Tax Paying American". Keep the people healthy and they can keep a job and pay taxes. It is in our best interest as a nation to keep our people healthy.

In Kilmolls example
Most social and communal animals do not provide for those that serve no purpose other than to burden the rest.
Wouldn't those societies let the burdens die off. Only the strong survive kind of thing? I agree though that we have a lot of people who are pretty much worthless in that they are milking the system (welfare as prime example) who think that they are owed this for some reason. Get those people in the work force and then our tax base gets better.

(sorry, I'm doing this at work and I get side tracked and lose my train of thought)
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by cadalano »

Do you also feel that health care is a right and that all people should be guaranteed coverage at others expense.
all US citizens should have access to good healthcare in the US. it has nothing to do with right or privilege.
Where, exactly, is the incentive to do great and be wealthy and successful (aka "The American Dream") if you are going to be forced to give and give and give to other people who did not make the same efforts and sacrifices along the road of life that you did? I sure know that goodwill and the desire to help others has nothing to do with why I want to be successful and have money.
The incentive to do great and be wealthy and successful is that you do great things and become wealthy and successful. The idea that someone would purposely refuse to earn more money simply to avoid higher taxes is ridiculous.
Edit: Also, I do believe that we could do a LOT to DRASTICALLY reduce the amount of abuse of our welfare system. Of course there are always gonna be those people on either side of the fence like you stated, but right now it's out of control.
there's plenty that can be done... doubt anyone will argue with that. trouble is in the details.. exactly what needs to be done, what defines "out of control", etc.. all comes down to what societies believe in.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Xyun »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Most social and communal animals do not provide for those that serve no purpose other than to burden the rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp_motddvnQ
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

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In Kilmoll's family, the disabled get a bullet in the head.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

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right after he delivers an incapacitating controlled pair to the center mass through, am i right? he's not a fucking amateur
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

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I STAND CORRECTED
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

Took longer than I expected.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

My belief in (and I know most americans consider this a bad word, but it really isn't, not in its original context) the welfare state is ideologically as well as culturally grounded. N.F.S. Grundtvig, a danish theologian and social critic wrote a psalm that, after detailing how other nations have greater national resources, greater poetry in their languages, greater victories in war etc, ends thus (my translation):
and then we in riches have truly excelled
when few have too much and fewer too little.
I believe no child should be refused medical treatment because his or her parents are poor. I believe no one should have to choose between food and medicine. I believe that no one should be stuck in debt hell for the rest of their life because of emergency surgery. I also believe it is a solemn fucking undeniable duty for every person to take care of their fellow man, whether you like him or not. If you choose to live in a society, you take on responsibility for that society, and in my view, that means that if you're strong, you help take care of the weak. You try and make sure that all the children of the next generation have a better life than the one this one had. You try and ensure that every single person does the best they can do with their lives, because society will be stronger for it.

and just because I'm in a quoting mood, I'll toss in one from Sorkin:
If fidelity to freedom of democracy is the code of our civic religion, then surely the code of our humanity is faithful service to that unwritten commandment that says we shall give our children better than we ourselves received.
Free, universal health care is important for so many reasons, some of them listed above. Another reason is that it would be a wonderful first step on the road to softening the quite rigid class society the US has become by removing just one of the impediments of the working poor. Class society, hell, it's practically feudal.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Fairweather Pure »

It is against the law for any medical facility in the US to refuse treatment to anyone under any condition. So, children, bums, 3rd generation welfare recipiants, ect. are all guaranteed health care. The problem is that the care they recieve is not free. After the health care is given, these people will be expected to pay. If they cannot pay, these people will be turned over to collection agencies who then do whatever it is they do, including harrassement and killing credit.

So, everyone in the US has access to health care. However, the problems that come after the treatment are so great, people would rather stay sick than go to a hospital when they have no insurance. When they finally do come in it's only after the problem is so bad, they are 10x worse off than if they just would've come in at the start of the sickness and nipped it in the bud. The care that uninsured people are denied are "elective" procedures. The definition of what is and is not elective is a shot in the dark.

Another source of irony is that Blue Cross, Medicare/Medicaid, and countless others have so much volume that they have all lobbied to pay significantly less. So, your MRI may cost 3k, but Blue Cross only pays 1.8k and Medicare pays $800. You just lost your job and broke your leg? That will be 3k and no less, you lazy, jobless fuck.

America's health care system is ranked at the bottom of industrialized nations for a reason. The entire system needs to be redone from the top to the bottom.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by pyrella »

Wall - o - text inc. If you don't want to read silly comparisons, skip to the bottom!


I find it ironic that those who complain about the elitism of others....wish to remain elite themselves.

Now this is probably a poor analogy, but one that everyone on this board should be able to relate to due to it's founding nature. Your average 'raiding guild/force/what have you' sadly - is usually carried to success by the efforts of say the best...25-30%. However, those 25-30% have to provide welfare in terms of resources, knowledge, and pulling that extra bit of weight that the incompetent fucks in your raid force can't/won't do.

Call your guild 'society' (your goals/needs/aspirations/desires) - Goal: kill new shit
Call your core raiders the 'wealthy' (knowledge/skill/resources) - Goal: Kill shit better and better on a scale of diminishing returns
Call your incompetent fucks the 'welfare recepients (WRs)'. (loot/instruction/planning, etc) Goal: Get by, have the flashy name, still get shit


If you wish your society to succeed and reach it's goals, you can't take 25% of them, and say go at it. There will still be man power and resources that can't be provided by them alone, you need your welfare recipients. Now you can draw this out for however long you like - but at the end, there remains a few constants:

For society to succeed you need your wealthy who can fund/do/create/etc on a diminishing returns scale. However it's done with a standard risk:reward outlook. If you succeed at creating that thing everyone wants, and is affordable to everyone, your reward will be great, as even your WR's will be able to afford it and funnel their money towards the top (see 99c menu at any fast food joint). McDonalds isn't some small tiny business that's looking out for the little guy and his community - they are a multibillion, global conglomerate with resources that can compete with most any industialized nation in the world. On their own. Even McDonalds gets the fact you need to take care of your WR's so that the wealthy (execs/shareholders/owners) can get even wealthier. As was also touched on - educating your people so they are more efficient, giving them health care so they don't call in sick as often, nor spread disease amongst your customers are pretty good incentives ti provide those types of services.

The truely shiftless/lazy/etc - will choose not to go to the education facility, thus not utilizing it's resources. They may even choose not to utilize the health facilities that are provided to them. These are the creatures that will ostricize/kill themselves off. Not for lack of availability, but for lack of desire.

Now I understand that Communism has a pretty nasty name, that even Socialism detractors won't even use the term because it's that bad. But at it's core, most everyone who has something more than a passing acquaintance with other members of societies, or isn't ostracized from their own families probably practices quite a bit of it.

People think time shares are hot shit - the only one realizing the joys of capitalism on that is the timeshare property owner. The time sharers themselves are a bunch of commies - they all pay equal amounts for equal stakes at being able to enjoy themselves at equal facilities. Families buy food for the family - and then share it - my god, the fucking socialists must be stopped, no?

You enjoy the protection of police/military/meteorology/communication/your precious monetary system (whoops your capitalist ideals are provided by a social service). The list actually goes on and on.

At the end of the day - you as the more affluent person with your wealth and your happiness, will still have more wealth and happiness (if your happiness is based on wealth i suppose) - than the guy who is getting handouts.

Yes that incompetent fuck raider just got the uber_sword_of_ownage_01 - but you've been rolling with the improved_uber_sword_of_ownage_07 - and that disparity will never change. You can lord it over them until they fall in to 3 classes:

Someone who wants to better themselves and contribute more to their society (oh god please, fall in to this category)
Apathetic and doesn't mind the status quo (pretty common)
Someone who gets righteous and indignant, and rage quits - thus removing themselves from society/as a burden to society (pretty funny, plus they get what they deserve)

Unless the country becomes a true communist state, the ones who wish to win the game (capitalism is just a game where $$ is the scoreboard), will always have a higher score than the ones who are content to let the game carry them along.


Now maybe for the silver lining to your perspective - While I feel and believe there should be a good social services system in place - I don't want it abused - access to coverage, and the amount of coverage should be equal (preferably at a level rated 'good' or better). Much as I want GM/Ford/Et al to die in a fire because of the bullshit compensations the unions have extracted from the companies for the individual workers - the individual members of society that work there should still have access to health care/food/education. It's not their fault that their capitalist company playing with capitalist rules lost the capitalist game - they just need to ditch the zero and get with a hero.


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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Xyun »

Nice rant. Let me sum it up:

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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by pyrella »

pretty much!
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Winnow »

Legion > Ixtlan

We carried you guys! :twisted:
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

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Hi-5 winnow! :P
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Xyun »

Now this guy is a genius -
Why Conservatives Fail

Ronald Reagan, the father of the modern Republican party, immortalized the core precept of American conservatism in the 21st century, that "government is not the solution to our problems, government is the problem".

But how does one reconcile this belief in our democracy? Are government and democracy in America mutually exclusive concepts?

In order to logically conclude that government is the problem, one must first divorce our actual government from our form of government. One has to either accept that our system of democracy is inadequate or that the government it produces is illegitimate. Since conservatives don't hold to the former (see: George Bush foreign policy) it must follow that they hold to the latter, however illogical the position.

It is this contempt for government produced with democracy, produced of, by, and for the people that allows conservatives to conscientiously corrupt it while in power and accost it while out. It is the denial that the United States government represents its citizens that allows them to snub its laws.

If the act of governing is inherently contemptible, what does one who holds this belief do when put in a position to govern? And moreover, why would one even pursue that position?

Conservatives pursue power in government with the guise that they will reduce the very power they seek once they attain it. It is the ultimate form of self contradiction or self deception. Because as has been evident, when they do attain power they expand it against the very principles they pretend to hold. How can one govern competently if government itself is the problem? That is where the true nature of the logical ineptitude of their philosophy is exposed: government is contemptible therefore incompetence is excusable, and that incompetence is evidence that government is contemptible! That is exactly the argument Governor (sweet irony) Jindal makes:
Today in Washington, some are promising that government will rescue us from the economic storms raging all around us. Those of us who lived through Hurricane Katrina -- we have our doubts.
Republican incompetence warrants distrust of Democrats! But to fully capture the self contradiction that is 21st century conservatism, one needs only these words from the same speech:
The strength of America is not found in our government. It is found in the compassionate hearts and the enterprising spirit of our citizens.
That is why conservatives fail. They ultimately deny that American government is made of, by, and for its citizens. They deny democracy.

Since the circular stupidity of their beliefs never dawns on them, conservatives will never be competent at governing in a democracy. The only role they are suitable for is a permanent minority that keeps the rest of us in check by threatening to take over and destroy our beloved nation with their utter incompetence.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Truant »

Hi

I'll share my actual experiences about health care in an attempt to relate this to the other side.

I haven't had health insurance since the age of 18 when I was dropped from my parents' insruance. That was 10 years ago.

Within those 10 years I've only had to go to the doctor twice (luckily). Each time nearly destroyed me financially.

The first time was when I was in Vegas. The casinos in Vegas do not provide health care coverage until you have been with that particular casino for at least 6 mos. (many 1 year). Keep in mind that this is a business were it is completely known and expected that you do not stay at one casino for more than 6 months unless 1. You fucking suck. or 2. You've reached the top. Despite this, you were allowed 1 free sick day in a 6 week period. On the second day you were pulled into an office, given written warning and a verbal lashing. The third day, you were fired, no questions asked. If you were sick on any day that was deemed important (any holiday, plus super bowl sunday and various other big gambling days) you were instantly fired whether it was your first sick day or not, no questions asked. It should also be noted that on these important days, it was common that you work anywhere from a 16-20 hour shift and be expected back the next day at your normally scheduled time. Keep in mind this is a business where people are travelling from all over the world and staying up all hours of the night sharing their germs with you constantly.
Just before Superbowl sunday I came down with a sinus infection. I attempted to work through it, as I had done countless other times for fear of my job. This time however, it got the better of me. It spread to my throat, ears, and eyes within a couple days. I called in before superbowl weekend and took a day off hoping I would heal up with the regimen of vitamins, rest, and various other home remedies I had come to rely on. No luck, I showed up and worked sick for superbowl weekend, then called in afterwards and went to the doctor. It cost me over $700 to go to a doctor who told me what I already knew and prescribe me an antibiotic. It should be noted that I was so fucked up with fever and fatigue that my significant other at the time had to take me to the clinic and wait with me while I sat there shivering and convulsing uncontrollably. $700 may not be shit to some of you, but I was supporting two people on my relatively meager income, and it nearly broke me. I was literally going paycheck to paycheck trying to provide when that bill was dropped on me. Not to mention dealing with the stress of having my job threatened for getting sick as a result of being overworked by my job.

After that I had relatively good luck at not getting sick to a point that I couldn't take care of it myself. It should also be noted, however, that I regularly purchased leftover antibiotics from friends and coworkers when they had leftovers. I was fortunate enough to be such a sick child growing up that I knew what antibiotic worked for what, and what I was coming down with when i was experiencing trouble. Anytime a friend took a trip to mexico, I gave them money to bring me back antibiotics that can be legally purchased in a corner drug store down there. I had to keep stashes because the simple office visit fee of any doctor for an uninsured patient was ungodly.

Last year I had my other unfortunate encounter with the health care system.
I work as a manager for a regional pizza chain. There is no health care option (in fact, they don't even pay overtime despite the fact that I work 60-65 hours a week). One night, as a result of massive overworking and sleep desprivation, I blacked out and lost consiousness. I landed face first on conrete, breaking my nose, chipping some large chunks out of my front teeth, and SERIOUSLY scraping up half my face (i have some seriously fucked up pictures if any of you are interested in losing your lunch). There was a ridiculous amount of blood and i was unconsious for 5 or so seconds which absolutely freaked my corworker out who was there at the time. I kept him calm and he helped me stop the bleeding before taking me home. The next day I went to the clinic. I ended up paying $1000 dollars to have someone tell me to put neosporin on my scrapes and tell me that while my nose was broken, they couldn't do anything about it (i argued with them when they informed me it was broken, I didn't believe them). That's right, I had to pay $1000 for someone to tell me to put neosporin on a scrape. Oh, and don't forget that since I was uninsured, they were adamant about receiving payment up front, before I recieved any kind of treatment or advisement. They also wanted me to come in for follow up visits to see how I was doing. After getting the same "put neosporin on it" on the second visit, which cost $250, I told them that while I appreciated their expertise and care, I wouldn't be coming back for the recommended second follow up (third visit). I also feel that I should point out that the $1000 was almost a month's pay for me. Again, some of you may laugh at that amount, but it's what I live on. I lied to these doctors btw and told them that I tripped and fell, because I knew from experience (my mother has problems with feinting/blacking out) that they would run a slew of tests at my expense to tell me that I passed out due to exhaustion. Tests that I could not afford, but they would insist on.

I've come to an agreement with my coworkers that should some kind of medical emergency arise, they will not call 911 or an ambulance, because that will be the end of my life financially. They absolutely understand that I would rather die now, than live the rest of my life in debt due to some medical problem.

And simply because some of you have made such a big deal out of it...I have never collected unemployment, I have never been on welfare (despite being below the poverty line for most of my adult life), I have never made any use of any social service/welfare program, despite the fact that I've been a tax paying citizen since the age of 18. I have no doubt in my mind that all the money I've paid into medicare/medicaid/social security will never be seen by myself. I've also accepted the fact that any kind of truly serious medical condition will be the death of me, as I will not be able to afford the care necessary to treat that condition. Given my family medical history, I will truly be amazed if I see 45. I'd probably put 50/50 chances on age 40 currently.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by miir »

I'm still amused by the fear that (a surprisingly large number of) Americans have of anything even remotely socialist.





Truant, if you were in Canada, you would not have to:
Worry about being fired from your job for being sick.
Worry about being financially fucked for life by going to the hospital.
Hoarde antibiotics.


Without supplemental health insurance, we still have to pay for things like perscriptions, corrective lenses and dental work. On the flipside, we have to wait to get (non critical) surgery performed.

I mean, our system is far from perfect but it's a fuck of a lot better than the system south of the border.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

I think many people (highlighted by xyun's article that was stated as though it was a fact, and even more, common sense - which of course is not the case), have a very odd view of what government's role should be. No matter how many times I see/hear it, or in relation to any number of topics it's brought up, it makes no sense to me at all. The government is not here to regulate everything, pay for everything, and help everyone do everything that they can't/won't do.

I guess it's pretty hard for us to discuss the topic at hand when neither side can even remotely understand the other on something as basic and fundamental as what I mentioned in the previous paragraph.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Funkmasterr wrote:The government is not here to regulate everything, pay for everything, and help everyone do everything that they can't/won't do.
No, you're right, government isn't. Government is a tool providing society an opportunity to help out the people who need it, to make sure that things work, that people don't die from stupid shit that could be avoided and to make sure each person is as productive as possible.

I'm curious, Funk: In your view, what should the role of government be? What is the role of society (which is, basically, just a hugely overgrown commune sans hippies) ?
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Funkmasterr wrote:I think many people (highlighted by xyun's article that was stated as though it was a fact, and even more, common sense - which of course is not the case), have a very odd view of what government's role should be. No matter how many times I see/hear it, or in relation to any number of topics it's brought up, it makes no sense to me at all. The government is not here to regulate everything, pay for everything, and help everyone do everything that they can't/won't do.

I guess it's pretty hard for us to discuss the topic at hand when neither side can even remotely understand the other on something as basic and fundamental as what I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

And this is why states are writign up secession bills citing the 10th amendment to stop the federal government from overstepping their bounds. This is going to be one HUGE step to preventing Obama from turning the US over to UN control as he seems to be working towards.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:I think many people (highlighted by xyun's article that was stated as though it was a fact, and even more, common sense - which of course is not the case), have a very odd view of what government's role should be. No matter how many times I see/hear it, or in relation to any number of topics it's brought up, it makes no sense to me at all. The government is not here to regulate everything, pay for everything, and help everyone do everything that they can't/won't do.

I guess it's pretty hard for us to discuss the topic at hand when neither side can even remotely understand the other on something as basic and fundamental as what I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

And this is why states are writign up secession bills citing the 10th amendment to stop the federal government from overstepping their bounds. This is going to be one HUGE step to preventing Obama from turning the US over to UN control as he seems to be working towards.
Hahaha, I'm sorry? Turning the US over to UN control? You're sounding more and more like a militiaman from bumfuck, Idaho. You have seen president after president, republican and democrat, being involved in a 50 year tug of war over the rights of states and governments, and it's been a zero sum game. And now because of a few bills concerning gun control and a couple of states floating protest bills, you've got the nasty black man selling your BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY TO THE UNITED NATIONS OF COMMUNISTS ?

Did this turn into a troll-em-if-you-can board while I was away for the weekend? Seriously?
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Boogahz »

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:Did this turn into a troll-em-if-you-can board while I was away for the weekend? Seriously?
That's about all it has been for a lot longer than a weekend :)
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:I think many people (highlighted by xyun's article that was stated as though it was a fact, and even more, common sense - which of course is not the case), have a very odd view of what government's role should be. No matter how many times I see/hear it, or in relation to any number of topics it's brought up, it makes no sense to me at all. The government is not here to regulate everything, pay for everything, and help everyone do everything that they can't/won't do.

I guess it's pretty hard for us to discuss the topic at hand when neither side can even remotely understand the other on something as basic and fundamental as what I mentioned in the previous paragraph.



And this is why states are writign up secession bills citing the 10th amendment to stop the federal government from overstepping their bounds. This is going to be one HUGE step to preventing Obama from turning the US over to UN control as he seems to be working towards.
Hahaha, I'm sorry? Turning the US over to UN control? You're sounding more and more like a militiaman from bumfuck, Idaho. You have seen president after president, republican and democrat, being involved in a 50 year tug of war over the rights of states and governments, and it's been a zero sum game. And now because of a few bills concerning gun control and a couple of states floating protest bills, you've got the nasty black man selling your BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY TO THE UNITED NATIONS OF COMMUNISTS ?

Did this turn into a troll-em-if-you-can board while I was away for the weekend? Seriously?
There is more to it than that....and I am not going to bother linking anything because even if he put it in writing, you would not believe it. Go look up your own shit for Global Poverty Acts (written by Obama and Biden in 2007) and other tie-ins with the Millenium Declaration.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Winnow »

Truant wrote:Hi

I'll share my actual experiences about health care in an attempt to relate this to the other side.

I haven't had health insurance since the age of 18 when I was dropped from my parents' insruance. That was 10 years ago.

I've been fully insured and haven't been to a doctor in 11+ years. Sorry to hear about your experiences. For a two day stretch about six months ago, I felt like I was on verge of having a heart attack. I didn't even know where a hospital was. I finally called the number on my insurance card and asked them what I was supposed to do and for a phone number for a physician close to me. I never called and thankfully whatever the problem was went away.

There are jobs that you can do that have good benefits. It sounds like you work your ass off so you should probably try to get a job at some sort of call center. Pay would be same or better, plus overtime pay and you'd have opportunity to be rewarded for your hard work while also being insured. Outside of Vegas, most big companies insure new employees after about three months.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

Winnow wrote:
Truant wrote:Hi

I'll share my actual experiences about health care in an attempt to relate this to the other side.

I haven't had health insurance since the age of 18 when I was dropped from my parents' insruance. That was 10 years ago.

I've been fully insured and haven't been to a doctor in 11+ years. Sorry to hear about your experiences. For a two day stretch about six months ago, I felt like I was on verge of having a heart attack. I didn't even know where a hospital was. I finally called the number on my insurance card and asked them what I was supposed to do and for a phone number for a physician close to me. I never called and thankfully whatever the problem was went away.

There are jobs that you can do that have good benefits. It sounds like you work your ass off so you should probably try to get a job at some sort of call center. Pay would be same or better, plus overtime pay and you'd have opportunity to be rewarded for your hard work while also being insured. Outside of Vegas, most big companies insure new employees after about three months.
I had full dental and health insurance coverage on day 1 at my job. And every other job I've had that I can recall, for that matter.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by valryte »

I had full dental and health insurance coverage on day 1 at my job. And every other job I've had that I can recall, for that matter.
And because you're Funkmasterr that must be the norm...
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

valryte wrote:
I had full dental and health insurance coverage on day 1 at my job. And every other job I've had that I can recall, for that matter.
And because you're Funkmasterr that must be the norm...
:lol: , what is it with you people and your smart ass comments and putting words in my mouth? I was simply commenting on my personal experience. Jesus christ.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Boogahz »

I believe we have a 30 day wait before health/dental/vision kicks in.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by laneela »

Most companies don't provide any benefits to someone who's still in their "probationary period", which is normally 3-6 months from their start date.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Forthe »

As a Canadian (Newf!!) I'm glad I never have to worry about health insurance. I consider health as a public utility just as I do education, police and fire. I pay taxes for all those services and luckily I haven't had any need of any of them (since becoming a taxpayer).

Has my money been wasted helping all the other people that did use the services? I do not believe so, it is basically just insurance from my perspective. Something I never have to worry about and peace of mind has value.

Republican social values seem like a real paradox to me to me when it comes to social justice\morality. You preach morality on the right to life argument but after they are born you would let them die of illness on the side of the road in winter without a second thought if it cost you any tax dollars to prevent it.

To the conservatives making your survival of the fittest arguments earlier in this thread, would you argue against aborting a Down's syndrome baby?

If your answer is yes then how about: would you argue against aborting a Down's syndrome baby if it cost tax dollars to prevent it?

Beyond the morality there is a big benefit to universal healthcare, economy of scale. Canada spends ~50% per capita that the US does with 10% of the population. While the system isn't perfect it's results are pretty good, superior to the US in many stats. With your purchasing power the US could drastically reduce spending and still have a better system than Canada.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Funkmasterr »

Forthe wrote:As a Canadian (Newf!!) I'm glad I never have to worry about health insurance. I consider health as a public utility just as I do education, police and fire. I pay taxes for all those services and luckily I haven't had any need of any of them (since becoming a taxpayer).

Has my money been wasted helping all the other people that did use the services? I do not believe so, it is basically just insurance from my perspective. Something I never have to worry about and peace of mind has value.

Republican social values seem like a real paradox to me to me when it comes to social justice\morality. You preach morality on the right to life argument but after they are born you would let them die of illness on the side of the road in winter without a second thought if it cost you any tax dollars to prevent it.

To the conservatives making your survival of the fittest arguments earlier in this thread, would you argue against aborting a Down's syndrome baby?

If your answer is yes then how about: would you argue against aborting a Down's syndrome baby if it cost tax dollars to prevent it?

Beyond the morality there is a big benefit to universal healthcare, economy of scale. Canada spends ~50% per capita that the US does with 10% of the population. While the system isn't perfect it's results are pretty good, superior to the US in many stats. With your purchasing power the US could drastically reduce spending and still have a better system than Canada.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Drasta »

woo .. after trying to log in about 100x i finally got my password right ... lol

but anyways ... yea .. i am all for national health care .. but its going to be a nightmare for the USA to implement because of our fantastic corrupted govt...


and .. hey everyone!
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Ashur »

Drasta wrote:but anyways ... yea .. i am all for national health care .. but its going to be a nightmare for the USA to implement because of our fantastic corruptedbloated, inefficient govt...
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Drasta »

lol yea that too ashur .. and also it would take them FOREVER to get the system worked out .. and oh god the problems ... they should just model it after the Canadians .. where each state? does their own thing .. if i remember right
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Wulfran »

Drasta wrote:lol yea that too ashur .. and also it would take them FOREVER to get the system worked out .. and oh god the problems ... they should just model it after the Canadians .. where each state? does their own thing .. if i remember right
Well up here each province is its health insurance company, and everyone is subject to the same national Act (set of laws, rules and regs). Our funding for it is a little different too because of the way our taxation system differs from yours.

In Alberta the way the system works is our premiums are now $0 (they used to be $48 per month for me as a single male but budgetary surpluses, etc. allowed the province to get rid of the fees):

Patient ---> doctor/clinic/hospital (patient's choice not anyone else's contrary to rumours I have heard) ---> regional health authority/provincial ministry ---> federal ministry ---> taxpayers

The patient pays nothing at the clinic but the clinic submits their bill to the region which is the provincial gov't. The Feds collect all the income taxes up here so the funding has to come back through them, which leads to all sorts of arguments between the levels of gov't. Prescriptions, dentistry, optometry and cosmetic surgeries are not covered by the province but can be by supplemental insurance policies (i.e. Blue Cross) through employers, etc. Prescriptions in Canada tend to be cheaper than the US because of the laws about generic drugs (Pfizer et al hate the Canadian gov't :p). There are well documented waiting lists for some procedures, and this is the crux of the private/public health care debates that occur up here: proponnents of the private system say they could eliminate waiting lists better with less administration. In some areas there are also shortages of doctors leading to backlog as well, although this tends to be more in high population growth and rural settings.
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Drasta »

lol that actually sounds rather well ... having the other insurance to cover the other minor stuff ... (yes prescriptions are minor compared to a heart transplant etc.) and QQ about braces ... but it does sound like a good system from what i've heard from the canadians that i know ... and so what if im on a waiting list to have some bone spurs removed .. its not like ur gonna die from it .. just be uncomfortable ... anyone know any of the typical waiting list stuff for up in canada? and yes drug prices in the US are outrageous ... i work in a pharmacy ... its retarded the mark-ups on shit ..
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by Mplor »

After living in the UK for a year, I've had my eyes opened to national health care.

It's not as expensive as I thought. My total income taxes are only a couple percentage points more here than in the US because you just pay national tax here - no state tax on top of it.

The quality of public health care seems good. No complaints yet. Prescriptions are free too.

But most surprisingly to me, there's a parallel private health care system which provides the same top level of service you can buy in the US. I have private health insurance as well as public, and for optional care I rely on the private system. Dentistry is considered optional care here, which explains a lot!

So the argument that quality of health care would go down in a nationalized system turns out to be false as far as I can tell. If you can afford private health insurance now in the US (or your company gives it to you), you would be able to afford the same level of coverage here. If you can't afford it in the US, you'd be included in the public system here. Seems like a win-win.

It actually costs me less for my private insurance here than it did in the US, and the care I've received was better than most in the US. My LASIK doctor (also optional care) has tech that hasn't yet been approved for use in the US by the FDA, for instance.

Anyway, it would be devlishly hard to get this implemented in the US due to entrenched interests and our ineffectual leaders in Congress. But I support the effort! =)
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Re: Honest question about fundamental beliefs

Post by vn_Tanc »

Having been exposed to US life to a greater degree in the last 2 years than previously I've formed the following opinion:

I will never live in the USA unless it changes. (Yeah hooray, I know).

The two things that absolutely must change are:

- Socialized medicine. Basic healthcare is a fundamental necessity in any civilized society. Private insurance puts a price on this, and as soon as something has a price there will be those that cannot afford it. And there are major corporations making a huge fucking profit from it. If as little of 10% of Micheal Moore's "Sicko" is true, I am disgusted. Funk's position of "I want none of my money going to support others" is typical hard-nosed bullshit from people who have yet to be touched by tragedy. I had friends who thought this way. Then one of our circle contracted cancer. She died, but in the 2 years this took she had treatment that would have cost $200k-500k at US insurance prices. It cost her nothing but it made me happy to know that the tax I pay helped her in her time of need. The same goes for all my family members who have ever needed treatment. What you currently pay in insurance premiums would cover the cost of this service and there would be none of the attendent bullshit: assessors, pre-existing conditions, profits etc. If you're sick you get treatment. The end.

- Right to fire. God was there ever a more abusable, self-defeating concept? I worked with a company in a right-to-fire state and everyone was so worried and paranoid they spent 30% of their time fretting and 30% of their time covering their arses so they wouldn't get fired. Put some limited right-to-work protection in place and watch your productivity soar.
A man with a fork
In a world of soup
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