I really can't express how disappointed I am in this guy... He promised to be an agent of hope and change. He is absolutely worse than Bush, it's evident now and will only get clearer over time. Some of you are such suckers, it's a shame.WSJ wrote:President Barack Obama has turned fearmongering into an art form. He has repeatedly raised the specter of another Great Depression. First, he did so to win votes in the November election. He has done so again recently to sway congressional votes for his stimulus package.
In his remarks, every gloomy statistic on the economy becomes a harbinger of doom. As he tells it, today's economy is the worst since the Great Depression. Without his Recovery and Reinvestment Act, he says, the economy will fall back into that abyss and may never recover.
This fearmongering may be good politics, but it is bad history and bad economics. It is bad history because our current economic woes don't come close to those of the 1930s. At worst, a comparison to the 1981-82 recession might be appropriate. Consider the job losses that Mr. Obama always cites. In the last year, the U.S. economy shed 3.4 million jobs. That's a grim statistic for sure, but represents just 2.2% of the labor force. From November 1981 to October 1982, 2.4 million jobs were lost -- fewer in number than today, but the labor force was smaller. So 1981-82 job losses totaled 2.2% of the labor force, the same as now.
Job losses in the Great Depression were of an entirely different magnitude. In 1930, the economy shed 4.8% of the labor force. In 1931, 6.5%. And then in 1932, another 7.1%. Jobs were being lost at double or triple the rate of 2008-09 or 1981-82.
This was reflected in unemployment rates. The latest survey pegs U.S. unemployment at 7.6%. That's more than three percentage points below the 1982 peak (10.8%) and not even a third of the peak in 1932 (25.2%). You simply can't equate 7.6% unemployment with the Great Depression.
Other economic statistics also dispel any analogy between today's economic woes and the Great Depression. Real gross domestic product (GDP) rose in 2008, despite a bad fourth quarter. The Congressional Budget Office projects a GDP decline of 2% in 2009. That's comparable to 1982, when GDP contracted by 1.9%. It is nothing like 1930, when GDP fell by 9%, or 1931, when GDP contracted by another 8%, or 1932, when it fell yet another 13%.
Auto production last year declined by roughly 25%. That looks good compared to 1932, when production shriveled by 90%. The failure of a couple of dozen banks in 2008 just doesn't compare to over 10,000 bank failures in 1933, or even the 3,000-plus bank (Savings & Loan) failures in 1987-88. Stockholders can take some solace from the fact that the recent stock market debacle doesn't come close to the 90% devaluation of the early 1930s.
Mr. Obama's analogies to the Great Depression are not only historically inaccurate, they're also dangerous. Repeated warnings from the White House about a coming economic apocalypse aren't likely to raise consumer and investor expectations for the future. In fact, they have contributed to the continuing decline in consumer confidence that is restraining a spending pickup. Beyond that, fearmongering can trigger a political stampede to embrace a "recovery" package that delivers a lot less than it promises. A more cool-headed assessment of the economy's woes might produce better policies.
Mr. Schiller, an economics professor at the University of Nevada, Reno, is the author of "The Economy Today" (McGraw-Hill, 2007).
Obama the fearmonger
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Obama the fearmonger
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123457303244386495.html
Fash
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Fash wrote:I really can't express how disappointed I am in this guy... He promised to be an agent of hope and change. He is absolutely worse than Bush, it's evident now and will only get clearer over time. Some of you are such suckers, it's a shame.
Thank you for your insightful political analysis.
Have You Hugged An Iksar Today?
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
What don't you like about Obama? Is he not starting enough unjust wars for your taste? I think you're the sucker, to be honest.Fash wrote:I really can't express how disappointed I am in this guy... He promised to be an agent of hope and change. He is absolutely worse than Bush, it's evident now and will only get clearer over time. Some of you are such suckers, it's a shame.
Make love, fuck war, peace will save us.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
He is supposed to be the one to shed a positive light on things, and lead us out of the current situation the country is in. He is not supposed to talk like it is going to be the end of the world if everyone doesn't put all their beliefs aside and do/vote for exactly what he wants.Spang wrote:What don't you like about Obama? Is he not starting enough unjust wars for your taste? I think you're the sucker, to be honest.Fash wrote:I really can't express how disappointed I am in this guy... He promised to be an agent of hope and change. He is absolutely worse than Bush, it's evident now and will only get clearer over time. Some of you are such suckers, it's a shame.
That's the major issue I have with him I guess. He speaks about how people need to put the usual political games aside and find a common ground, but really what he is saying is he wants the conservatives to throw away everything they believe in and vote with him, and if they won't do exactly that he makes it look like they are the ones holding things up, which is very misleading.
Does there need to be some common ground found to get us out of this situation? Certainly. Will it take some negotiation from both sides? Certainly. But the approach he is taking is misleading, there is a difference between finding common ground and what he is asking to happen (whether directly or indirectly.)
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Bush didn't inherit a crippled economy. Obama is a very forward looking person, but first he has to back track to clean up Bush's mess.
He's been in office less than a month, so if you are going to start spouting ridiculous statements like this:
He's been in office less than a month, so if you are going to start spouting ridiculous statements like this:
...Then the real fear monger is you.He is absolutely worse than Bush, it's evident now and will only get clearer over time.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Are you fucking serious? Bush inherited a banking mess, 9/11 destroying our economic center, the massive collapse of companies that had been intentionally misreporting their status, the final collapse of the housing bubble that the Clinton administration inflated, then finally a banking collapse. None of that was in any way under his control.Keverian FireCry wrote:Bush didn't inherit a crippled economy. Obama is a very forward looking person, but first he has to back track to clean up Bush's mess.
He not only managed to keep the economy afloat during 8 years of complete bullshit that had been in the making for a decade, but even managed to get it turning upward before the latest round of collapses took their toll. Oh he managed to fuck up a lot of things and he took us into a war and you can ride his ass for all of that.....but he had NOTHING to do with our economic situation spiraling into the shitter.
Obama is cleaning up Clinton's mess (unless he fucks it up further which it appears he may be doing)...and the next President after Obama will inevitably be cleaning up Bush's.
Re: Obama the fearmonger
I agree with both sides. He mongers fear while offering hope, but these are fearful times. He's certainly doing a lot already, and in a year I think (hope) he will have a different tone. At the same time, though, his stimulus package is no less bullshit than anything else put on the table.
If FDR, the better part of a century ago can drop bombs like
If FDR, the better part of a century ago can drop bombs like
and later in the same speech sayThis is pre-eminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Nor need we shrink from honestly facing conditions in our country today. This great nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper.
while in similar circumstances decades later, all Obama can muster isthe rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failures and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.
True, they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit, they have proposed only the lending of more money.
Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored conditions. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers.
They have no vision, and when there is no vision the people perish.
The money changers have fled their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths.
The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.
What the fuck is that? It's vague and pointless. For all the favorable things people have said about Obama's speeches, to me they're his glaring partisan flaw. He commits to nothing so that he never backtracks. He is not brave, but will certainly take credit if the economy turns even slightly around in the next four years based on his pork-ridden plan. Americans need to demand a president with balls or else we'll just get more party division and special interest grease.Our economy is badly weakened, a consequence of greed and irresponsibility on the part of some, but also our collective failure to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age.
Re: Obama the fearmonger
You would rather have Obama lie to you about the state of the country than tell you the truth.
This "expert" from the WSJ is equating this depression with a recession in 1980. Take a look at his numbers:
November 1981 to October 1982 - 2.2% job loss - 11 months - Pace = 2.4% per year
current depression
October 2008 to January 2009 - 2.2% job loss - 4 months - pace = 6.6% per year
great depression
1930 - 4.8% job loss
1931 - 6.5% job loss
What a fucking buffoon. The fucking numbers he sites speak loudly for themselves. We are losing jobs at a faster pace than the beginning of the great depression. But morons who can't do fucking simple math come here and cry that Obama is giving them the truth, where they prefer to be lied to, which is why they vote against their own interests for people like Bush and Cheney and McCain and the other crooks. But hey, don't listen to me, don't do the fucking math that the spinster gives you in plain site, just cry like a fucking loser cry baby about how this is the worst president 3 weeks into a fucking presidency. I'm sorry Obama won't paint a pretty gay carebare everything is just fine picture for you fucking imbeciles.
This "expert" from the WSJ is equating this depression with a recession in 1980. Take a look at his numbers:
November 1981 to October 1982 - 2.2% job loss - 11 months - Pace = 2.4% per year
current depression
October 2008 to January 2009 - 2.2% job loss - 4 months - pace = 6.6% per year
great depression
1930 - 4.8% job loss
1931 - 6.5% job loss
What a fucking buffoon. The fucking numbers he sites speak loudly for themselves. We are losing jobs at a faster pace than the beginning of the great depression. But morons who can't do fucking simple math come here and cry that Obama is giving them the truth, where they prefer to be lied to, which is why they vote against their own interests for people like Bush and Cheney and McCain and the other crooks. But hey, don't listen to me, don't do the fucking math that the spinster gives you in plain site, just cry like a fucking loser cry baby about how this is the worst president 3 weeks into a fucking presidency. I'm sorry Obama won't paint a pretty gay carebare everything is just fine picture for you fucking imbeciles.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Please. I realize facts don't really matter in your world view, but directly contradicting yourself in the same breath is pretty absurd even for you.Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: Bush inherited a banking mess, 9/11 destroying our economic center, the massive collapse of companies that had been intentionally misreporting their status, the final collapse of the housing bubble that the Clinton administration inflated, then finally a banking collapse. None of that was in any way under his control.
He not only managed to keep the economy afloat during 8 years of complete bullshit that had been in the making for a decade, but even managed to get it turning upward before the latest round of collapses took their toll. Oh he managed to fuck up a lot of things and he took us into a war and you can ride his ass for all of that.....but he had NOTHING to do with our economic situation spiraling into the shitter.
Obama is cleaning up Clinton's mess (unless he fucks it up further which it appears he may be doing)...and the next President after Obama will inevitably be cleaning up Bush's.
Bush didn't fucking inherit 9/11 - it happened on his watch.
Bush kept the economy afloat? I'll give you that he bounced it back before royally fucking it up. The economy under Bush was sporadic. In fact, his last year was an abysmal failure, and it was Clinton's fault? 8 years after Clinton, 7 years after 9/11 and an entire economic recession and bounce back, and yet BLAME CLINTON!! Occam is rolling in his fucking grave.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Because Clinton was busy having sex with interns and then dealing with the consequences of that while Bin Laden ran free, growing in power until ultimately 911 happened.Xyun wrote: Bush didn't fucking inherit 9/11 - it happened on his watch.
"It happened on his watch" is a joke. Bush had to deal with the consequences of having a partying president in office that ignored the issues. Clinton goes down as one of the worst presidents ever, possibly worse than W Bush when historians look back 100 years from now.
And now Obama is pretty much Clinton v2.0 with Hillary as Sec of State and a gaggle of Clinton fuck ups in office along with her. Obama is acting like Bill on Air Force One, inviting reporters to "check out his spiffy ride". He's all about the lifestyle.
The only change coming is bad change. McCain wasn't the sexy choice, but he would have been a better choice than a sweet talking Senator out if Illinois, where the most corrupt politicians originate from.
Re: Obama the fearmonger
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
This is starting to get ridiculous. You're making judgment calls (that's exactly what they are) on someone based on media coverage - which is exactly what you accused liberals of doing for the last 8 years. And you're doing it based on his perceived performance of the last 27 days. Do you know how ridiculous that is?
As for fearmongering - he's simply stating facts. We're in a hideous position and unless we do something about it, things are going to continue getting worse at an alarming rate. Real fearmongering is being lied to about WMD's and plotted terrorist attacks to keep us all in check and give the government the ability to get all Big Brother on us.
Get over it. The stimulus bill passed in congress. Obama approves of the bill (obviously) and he's going to sign the bill as a president normally does when a bill that he approves of passes through congress. Place the blame where it belongs. It's not Obama's fault the Republicans lost the majority. It's also not his fault that when he sat down to talk to Republican Congressmen they only voiced their disdain and didn't offer up solutions when he's made it clear that he feels (as do others) that there is an urgency.
You're acting like the gradeschool bully who goes around beating someone up and as soon as someone does something about it, calls foul.
As for fearmongering - he's simply stating facts. We're in a hideous position and unless we do something about it, things are going to continue getting worse at an alarming rate. Real fearmongering is being lied to about WMD's and plotted terrorist attacks to keep us all in check and give the government the ability to get all Big Brother on us.
Get over it. The stimulus bill passed in congress. Obama approves of the bill (obviously) and he's going to sign the bill as a president normally does when a bill that he approves of passes through congress. Place the blame where it belongs. It's not Obama's fault the Republicans lost the majority. It's also not his fault that when he sat down to talk to Republican Congressmen they only voiced their disdain and didn't offer up solutions when he's made it clear that he feels (as do others) that there is an urgency.
You're acting like the gradeschool bully who goes around beating someone up and as soon as someone does something about it, calls foul.
Laneela
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
This.laneela wrote:he's simply stating facts. We're in a hideous position and unless we do something about it, things are going to continue getting worse at an alarming rate. Real fearmongering is being lied to about WMD's and plotted terrorist attacks to keep us all in check and give the government the ability to get all Big Brother on us.
Obama's "fear mongering" is telling the American people the truth. The cold hard facts about our economy is that it is just as bad as Obama is telling us. If you can prove his position as wrong, then more power to you. Bush on the other hand, was the very definition of a fear mongerer. He used 9/11 to push a whole other agenda.
Night and day. I can't believe you're even trying to make a comparison between the two.
Do you think Obama is lieing about the economy?
Re: Obama the fearmonger
hay guyz Obama who's pointing out the reality of the economic meltdown is worse than Bush the mass murderer amirite?
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
We really need a junior Senator from Illinois to point out the economic meltdown.
Yes, Fairweather, I do think he's being misleading about the economy and declaring things he is not qualified to.
Yes, Fairweather, I do think he's being misleading about the economy and declaring things he is not qualified to.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
That junior senator from Illinois is the President of the United States of America and he has people. People who brief him on everything, including the economy.Fash wrote:We really need a junior Senator from Illinois to point out the economic meltdown.
He is qualified, HE'S THE FUCKING PRESIDENT!!!Fash wrote:Yes, Fairweather, I do think he's being misleading about the economy and declaring things he is not qualified to.
Make love, fuck war, peace will save us.
Re: Obama the fearmonger
Fash wrote:We really need a junior Senator from Illinois to point out the economic meltdown.
Yes, Fairweather, I do think he's being misleading about the economy and declaring things he is not qualified to.
Which Junior Senator are you referring to? 'Cause I'm pretty sure, Obama was elected and inaugurated the President so I know you're not referring to him.
I'm also pretty sure he's not making shit up as he goes along. I think he has some kinda decent advisors being said President who *are* qualified advising him before he declares anything.
What would be the benefit of this supposed fearmongering? Or are you just trying to find things to hate about him? I'm going with the latter.
Dude, give him time. He's going to fuck up as humans are prone to do. You don't have to make shit up to satisfy your I Told You So Craving.
Laneela
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Fucker - beat me to it.Spang wrote:That junior senator from Illinois is the President of the United States of America and he has people. People who brief him on everything, including the economy.Fash wrote:We really need a junior Senator from Illinois to point out the economic meltdown.
He is qualified, HE'S THE FUCKING PRESIDENT!!!Fash wrote:Yes, Fairweather, I do think he's being misleading about the economy and declaring things he is not qualified to.
Laneela
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
laneela wrote:Fucker - beat me to it.
Make love, fuck war, peace will save us.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Yes, he's been the president for 27 days as you keep reminding us, and he's been saying this kind of stuff for a lot longer than that... I think the point was valid.
Fash
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
1. As long as we agree that calling the President of the United States of America "a junior senator from Illinois" was ridiculous.
2. Mentioning it once is hardly "keep reminding us".
3. I still don't see what the end product would be of his supposed fear mongering - unless we're using completely different definitions of the term.
2. Mentioning it once is hardly "keep reminding us".
3. I still don't see what the end product would be of his supposed fear mongering - unless we're using completely different definitions of the term.
Laneela
You may take our lives, but you will never take our trousers!
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Fash is just bitter because his party is a failure, his political philosophy is a failure, his presidential candidate is a failure, and he has no fucking idea how else to express his frustration than to try to get under our skin. He really has no other recourse. He is intelligent enough not to defend Bush, and I completely destroyed the sadly depraved argument he started this thread with.
This thread is the true nature of Republicans, bankrupt ideas, bullying in the majority, hissy fits in the minority.
This is the best the party has to offer:
Pay him no mind. Like a child who throws a temper tantrum, the more attention you give him, the more validated he feels.
This thread is the true nature of Republicans, bankrupt ideas, bullying in the majority, hissy fits in the minority.
This is the best the party has to offer:
Pay him no mind. Like a child who throws a temper tantrum, the more attention you give him, the more validated he feels.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Hahaha... You're wrong, but that post made me laugh pretty hard.
You know I voted for Obama, right?
You know I voted for Obama, right?
Fash
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Yea, I'm trying to figure out if that negates your vote for Bush. What do you think?
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
So was George Bush.Spang wrote:
He is qualified, HE'S THE FUCKING PRESIDENT!!!
Re: Obama the fearmonger
Bush is your president. Obama is my president.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
The sad part of this argument is Obama isn't even telling you how bad it really is. Of course if he didn't dull his language it would create real panic which would make matters worse (and have mobs lynching wall street execs).
All posts are personal opinion.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
And maybe they should be. Executives making millions of dollars a year in companies that are publicly traded should be held personally liable for failures of their companies.Forthe wrote:and have mobs lynching wall street execs).
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
That's a dangerous road to head down. By your standards, George Bush would be dead right now for putting our country in the shitter.Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:And maybe they should be. Executives making millions of dollars a year in companies that are publicly traded should be held personally liable for failures of their companies.Forthe wrote:and have mobs lynching wall street execs).
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Holy shit! I agree with Kilmoll!Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:And maybe they should be. Executives making millions of dollars a year in companies that are publicly traded should be held personally liable for failures of their companies.Forthe wrote:and have mobs lynching wall street execs).
Make love, fuck war, peace will save us.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
I wouldn't argue against it. There should be a punishment for the insane amount of damage they have caused. I'm also starting to think "too big to fail" = too big.Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:And maybe they should be. Executives making millions of dollars a year in companies that are publicly traded should be held personally liable for failures of their companies.Forthe wrote:and have mobs lynching wall street execs).
All posts are personal opinion.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
GW Bush, 9-24-2008The government's top economic experts warn that, without immediate action by Congress, America could slip into a financial panic and a distressing scenario would unfold.
More banks could fail, including some in your community. The stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet. Foreclosures would rise dramatically.
And if you own a business or a farm, you would find it harder and more expensive to get credit. More businesses would close their doors, and millions of Americans could lose their jobs.
Even if you have good credit history, it would be more difficult for you to get the loans you need to buy a car or send your children to college. And, ultimately, our country could experience a long and painful recession.
Fellow citizens, we must not let this happen. I appreciate the work of leaders from both parties in both houses of Congress to address this problem and to make improvements to the proposal my administration sent to them.
There is a spirit of cooperation between Democrats and Republicans and between Congress and this administration. In that spirit, I've invited Senators McCain and Obama to join congressional leaders of both parties at the White House tomorrow to help speed our discussions toward a bipartisan bill.
How soon you forget.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
Threads like this are why visiting VV is something I only do when there's absolutely nothing else to do to waste time. It used to be mildly entertaining, people would argue, make jokes, be funny. Now it's tiresome and a waste of time, in a bad way.
Some of you are just fucking retarded and there's no humor in it.
Some of you are just fucking retarded and there's no humor in it.
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Re: Obama the fearmonger
GQLLFM
"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." - Barack Obama
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Go Blue!
Re: Obama the fearmonger
I have no idea what that means, but I cracked myself up thinking of various possibilities.Sylvus wrote:GQLLFM