Prop 8 California

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Tyek
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Prop 8 California

Post by Tyek »

This weekend was a very weird one. It was my son's 13th birthday (Actually that is today), and we had the family over. We were talking about the propositions and number 8 comes up.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php?t ... n_8_(2008)

Essentially, Prop 8 is to determine if lesbians and gays can be officially "Married". They already can have civil unions, but not be labeled "Married". What this means is that they are not extended all of the benefits a married couple is. If a couple has one member injured in an accident, technically the hospital would not allow his/her partner in because they are not family.

It has become the highest spending social proposition in US history. Over 50 million spent. The Mormon church has been one of the most outspoken supporters both financially and in setting up protests.

This weekend we had soccer games for the kids, during the games a couple of vans started driving through the lots honking their horns and when you look, you see these vans covered in YES ON 8 signs. Sorry, but I think there is a time and a place and a kids soccer field is not it.

We mentioned how dumb we thought this was and my mother in law FREAKS OUT. I mean end of the world freaks out. She says it is definitely the place and we had better vote yes. I calmly tell her, I had already voted, 1 for Obama, 2 against 8 (which means I support gay marriage...confusing bill...no means yes.). My wife says she is going to do the same when her ballot comes and my mother in law tells my wife how dare she, she was raised better then that.

At this point, the dick part of me wants to say, "what way? to be an intolerant bigot?", but I can tell my wife is devasted and I just hugged her. My mother in law states, "Do you know what you are opening up??? DO YOU??? If this passes your husband can fall in love with your daughter and marry her and dump you!!!!!!!!!"

Huh?? (I had to say something, but the stupidity of this statement only allowed that word to exit my mouth.)

"I went to a seminar," she said, as the moronic ramblings continued. I know everything there is to know about this and you just opened that door. I hope you can live with it." (I started laughing and could not stop)

At this point I have recollected my thoughts and I simply asked, "What seminar? who sponsored it?" to which she replied "I am done talking about this and with you." My wife is stunned, my parents are sitting there, quiet the whole time, not sure what to do, so I said "Alright, present time!!" and got my son's gifts.

My mom and dad, also prop 8 supporters, although she really struggles with it and is unsure how they will finally vote, and I regularly discuss hot button topics and sometimes do not agree, but we have interesting, fruitful discussions. What I saw was outright tyranny from a selfish woman.

After my son went up to play his new Xbox360, I stated bluntly, "I know you are done with the conversation, but I have a couple questions then it can rest. I bet over 1000 people got married today. Do you care about a single one of them? No? then why do you care if some of them are boy/boy or girl/girl? I also want to know why you think marriage is a sacred right when statistics show that 75% of them have cheating, and over half end in divorce? Finally, if you think it was ok for those people to come to the field and state their opinion, what would you have thought if the No on 8 people did the same? I guarantee you would have been upset, so it's only ok if they support what you believe?

Surprisingly she had no answer for these, she just said, I don't care, it is sacred to me. The rest of the night was fine, things settled and after she left, my parents hugged my wife and told her they loved her and support her. My wife felt like she had lost her own family for a while that day. Her brother told her to forget it, ignore her and enjoy the day.

We did have some fun with the whole thing on Sunday. We took my son to Universal Studios Hollywood Scarefest and kept pointing out that I could marry all these hot girls wandering around since we obviously had opened the door to polygamy. She found some potential extra husbands too!!


Soooooo...I am curious, what other states are hearing about this issue. Both sides of this battle are getting nasty. Supporters are hounding people and spewing outright lies. Those against are threatening to out companies supporting 8 and are driving through neighborhoods stealing Yes on 8 signs, or worse marking houses with the words bigot, or parking in front of them with the word bigot and an arrow pointing towards the house.

I personally do not care about the issue, I just see it as discrimatory and will not support it for that reason. On the plus side, we asked our kids later what they thought and both said, "Who cares who they marry?" I have nothing negative to say about Prop 8 supporters, I understand the religious implicatations involved, but when you have an important Presidential election and a truely scary proposition like Prop 7, which would make me a ton of money, but is unfeasible and expensive, the fact that we have spent so much money on a WORD is crazy to me and shows the real split this country has running through it.

50+ million dollars that could have been spent on heart disease, AIDS research, Cancer research was wasted on a word. It makes you sad.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Gzette »

50+ million dollars that could have been spent on heart disease, AIDS research, Cancer research was wasted on a word. It makes you sad.
:vv_yeahthat:

Personally, I don't care about how it's classified, marriage, union etc. Calling it marriage really bothers many, and it would not bother me to "ban" gay marriage as long as equal rights, tax breaks and all other benefits of having a "marriage" were equally available to gays.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Boogahz »

I walked my mom down the aisle when she "married" her current partner, another woman, in February of 2002. I know of several man/woman marriages that have not even lasted this long. It cannot be treated as a marriage in the state of Texas now, and I really don't see this state changing that any time soon. They have had documents prepared to allow for one to be able to be present and make decisions for the other if there is an emergency (basically some kind of pending Power of Atty from what I understand), and they still fear that they won't be honored even with Austin being a LOT more accommodating than any other place in Texas.

My employer is one of the few that I know of with same-sex domestic partners being eligible to be added to your health insurance. My mom and her partner didn't have insurance issues before, but once her partner was laid off from Dell after a bazillion years of being there, it has come up a few times.

I was talking to a friend about the bigotry he has experienced, and we were discussing what part of the relationship people seem to focus on when fighting against this. Some would argue about the sexual relationship and how it might "warp" any children involved. We were trying to figure out how often those people had sex in front of their own children, and how that did not scar them as well.

Others would argue the "religious" side of things, but those people tend to get so involved with how their own interpretation has been passed down through the years that they refused to accept that someone else has created that interpretation after multiple versions before it.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by *~*stragi*~* »

I would rather vote to seperate the rights and benefits you get from being married from marriage completely. The entire concept of marriage is religious and has no business in government as far as I'm concerned. Civil unions for one and all woohoo!

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by cadalano »

i voted yesterday- while in line the woman in front of me bragged about how she always just voted "yes" on every proposition without reading anything. this was a 50~ year old woman. i wanted to ask why she just doesn't NOT vote for certain things if she has no idea what she's voting for.. but i had to stand in line with her for the next 3 hours so i figured i did not want to get into it.

as for me, i voted in support of gay marriage. i like stragi's suggestion but it will never happen. They don't care about what is sacred- thats just a front. Any formal union of gays will not be tolerated.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Siji »

We've got the same/similar prop here in FL right now (#2) and I've yet to talk to anyone that supports it aside from the old lady that lives next to me. We haven't had any big advertisements of it either way from what I've seen, and the only dumb thing that's really been happening around me is people stealing all the Obama yard signs in my neighborhood. Lady down on the corner has replaced hers 3 times. (They're $8 ea, so if I were her I'd be getting ticked) Can't say I've seen a single sign for Prop 2 yet.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Jice Virago »

The Jesus and Gold Disk freaks are out in force in California. I bite my tongue when I run across these homophobic morons, since a lot of them are pumping life savings into this dog and pony show, and part of me hopes that they bankrupt enough of their flock to cause permanent harm to future brainwashing. The few who have confronted me have basically gotten this statement out of me on the issue: Anything that causes the Mormons and Catholics to work together side by side cannot possibly be a good thing. This usually makes them shut up, because the only thing religious people hate more than "teh gheys" are each other.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Dregor Thule »

Here's what I don't get. The people who make the argument that a marriage is a sacred union between a man and woman under god, do they not view Hindu marriages, or Muslim marriages, or any of the other religions, as valid marriages? And if they're ok with that, why should they care if a gay or lesbian couple gets the same label applied to them. I just don't understand it, and yes, I too have parents that are against it. It's resulted in some heated discussions.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Animale »

I've given a little bit of money to the "No on 8" folks, and since I live in S.F. the opinion of folks here is pretty overwhelmingly against the proposition. That being said, the TV ads from the "Yes on 8" folks are crazy - hopefully using the tired old "won't somebody PLEASE think of the children" as a political argument will fail this time.

(Wiki is interesting! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_children)

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p.s. I'm totally going to steal that line about Mormons and Catholics Jice.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Tyek »

With 22% reporting the Yes vote is sadly winning by several % points.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by noel »

This is what I've moved to tracking now that the presidency is secured, and it's disheartening.

Why can't the Christians (primarily in this country) honor the separation of church and state? Why does it matter if someone else's idea of marriage differs from your own? Contrary to some people's belief, even if your children are taught about gay marriage in school, they won't instantly become homosexuals.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by VariaVespasa »

Its annoying, but dont worry about it too much. Its more the older voters that are voting yes. If 50%+1 is all it takes to implement prop 8 then 50%+1 is all it takes to overturn it in 5-8 years when enough of the yes-voters have died. Its just a temporary setback. Its the states where it the various bans 60% to implement that I'm more concerned about. Those may well take 30 years or more to kill off. :(

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Sabek »

noel wrote:This is what I've moved to tracking now that the presidency is secured, and it's disheartening.

Why can't the Christians (primarily in this country) honor the separation of church and state? Why does it matter if someone else's idea of marriage differs from your own? Contrary to some people's belief, even if your children are taught about gay marriage in school, they won't instantly become homosexuals.
I think C.S. Lewis said it best in "Mere Christianity" when he said that we as Christians should hold ourselves to a higher standard and not try to legislate our values on other people. Specifically talking about marriage and divorce rather than gay marriage, but I would assume his thought process would hold for gay marriage, he said that if Christians feel there should not be divorce in marriage then we as Christians need to hold ourselves to a more stringent view of marriage. This should in no way mean that everyone should have to follow that more stringent view. In effect there is "marriage" from a law perspective, and there is "Christian Marriage" from a spiritual view.

He goes on to say that would not like some other religion that believes in not consuming alcohol to institute laws banning alcohol for instance.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Acies »

I am quite appalled this passed. It was mostly Mormonism funding the "Yes on 8" movement. The only way I can understand why they did what they did is the following: They are fucking assholes.

Allow me to explain.

1890. The Manifesto was issued by Mormons, ceasing the plural marriage (polyamory) within the Chruch of Jesus Christ and the Latter-Day Saints. This was done in response to the government seizing their lands and disincorperating the Church of Latter-Day Saints via the Edmunds-Tucker Act. The government was preparing to seize their four temples and basically shut down Mormonism for good, which prompted the Manifesto, in which I suppose Mormons felt they needed to give up polyamory in order to spare their religion as a whole. Was it wrong? Absolutely and unequivically.

Now, over a century later, they fund and promote a proposition which removes marriage rights from others. I do not know if they are just ignorant of their past or very aware and just wanting others to suffer their pain. Either way, it is pretty dickish of them, in particular.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Ashur »

This is the same California electorate that voted for Obama in a landslide... so what's the problem?
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by noel »

Ashur wrote:This is the same California electorate that voted for Obama in a landslide... so what's the problem?
Ummm...

It's two separate issues?
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

they are upset that liberals hate fags too

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Spang »

We'll have a Mexican in the White House before a homo.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Ashur »

noel wrote:
Ashur wrote:This is the same California electorate that voted for Obama in a landslide... so what's the problem?
Ummm...

It's two separate issues?
But the same voters...
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by noel »

Ashur wrote:
noel wrote:
Ashur wrote:This is the same California electorate that voted for Obama in a landslide... so what's the problem?
Ummm...

It's two separate issues?
But the same voters...
I'll go with a guess here...

Bear in mind that California has a large hispanic/Mexican population. Bear in mind that many of them are extremely religious. I think they voted for Obama and against prop 8 when the ads started saying that their kids would be taught gay marriage in schools.

Other than that, I can't rationalize it. I was very surprised that prop 8 wasn't killed in CA.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Gzette »

African-Americans also tend to be very socially conservative, though they vote for Democrats. So a high turnout there does not help Prop 8 for the most part
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Lalanae »

Gzette wrote:African-Americans also tend to be very socially conservative, though they vote for Democrats. So a high turnout there does not help Prop 8 for the most part
Yeah, I read an article about that today. Something like 65% of African Americans are against gay marriage. It's the church factor. It's a shame that a group of people who know intolerance better first-hand than others would be the ones to propagate intolerance. I'm am deeply saddened by Prop 8 passing.

I am fortunate to have parents and a sibling who are strong civil rights supporters. I think I'd end up disowning them otherwise, lol, that kind of bigotry makes me fighting-mad. My sister's boyfriend has a mother much like your mother-in-law Tyek and they wrestle with her ignorance all the time. What your MIL said is something I would totally expect to come from his mother, lol. He got her back recently by telling her that the money she gave him for his birthday was donated to Obama (which it was).

Good for you for speaking your mind.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Noysyrump »

Isn't "marriage" a religious term? 'cause a civil union for gays has been legal for like... ummm.... ever.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by VariaVespasa »

No, its a government term, that has been co-opted by religion for a long time.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Hey guys!

I'm working from the house today, I can actually access this board.

If I put on my secular hat for a moment,

A government through laws can encourage a thing, be neutral towards a thing, or discourage a thing.

A justified reason for a government to say different sex marriage is preferred would be if there was something unique about classic marriage that helps the country.

A justified reason for a government to discourage same sex pairings would be because there was some demonstrated harm to society as a result of those unions.

I struggle in my passing efforts to find cases to support or oppose those arguments.

My personal reasoning says that a kid is better off with a mom and a dad who are committed to each other. But is that advantage a product of our current culture? If enough gay folk started having families, perhaps our culture would change enough to equalize (my perception) of heterosexual advantage? Or is there might be something more elemental that prevents such equalization?

Is this something that we should be encouraging / discouraging by law?
Right now we're encouraged to buy hybrids by tax credit,
raise and have children by tax credit.
Discouraged from speeding by traffic tickets.

How does heterosexual marriage really benefit a nation? Could same sex marriage do the same?

I don't know, and it's hard to find reasoned consideration for this.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Maybe my consideration is too broad.

Perhaps I should look at it from a freedom perspective?

Mr. Government, I want to drink and drive. (Illegal! You might harm others or yourself)
Mr. Government, I want to sell weapons tech to the North Koreans. (Illegal! You might harm others or yourself)
Mr. Government, I want to fib on my tax return. (Illegal! You might cheat others or yourself)
Mr. Government, I want to buy and use a bass boat. (LEGAL. Go right ahead, but don't drive drunk.)
Mr. Government, I want to cheat on my wife because the secretary is hot. (OK You're not hurting enough people to for the Government to care)
Mr. Government, I want to fuck a horse. (Illegal! You sicko bastard, you're so deviant from accepted culture you gotta be harming something!)
Mr. Government, I want to marry Steve he's McDreamy (Illegal!, You're harming society? ..... uh, You're deviant from accepted culture?.... You're... uh)

What is it? What's the harm? Is it harm thing, or is it a gross culture deviation?
Culture's change, culture deviation arguments have a expiration date.

So... we're back to identifying harm? I dunno.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Boogahz »

My question would be: What exactly is it about same sex marriages that could harm a child?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Child or one step removed,

How does two gay folks getting married harm society?

How does two heterosexual folks getting married help society?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Zaelath »

Adex_Xeda wrote: How does two heterosexual folks getting married help society?
That one's easy, they support the Pyramid Scheme model of economics that the west has been in love with for so long, but has crippled Africa.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

One government benefit of heterosexual marriage is having kids. If a country's culture degrades to a point where people decide not to build families, it hurts the tax base, the army ranks, the culture transfer etc.

Sex for the motherland: Russian youths encouraged to procreate at camp
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -camp.html
[quote][/quote]

With fertility methods, I'm sure Gay folk could cover this base.
I heard a while back (6 years ago?) that the dedication of gay unions is less than hetero unions.
Heterosexuals stay together longer. I don't know where to find supporting numbers to support this.

Is the only argument for heterosexual marriage a baby argument? In the past there was a strong culture argument against it. But now, culture has drifted into more acceptance.

What else is missing from the pro/con list?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Zaelath »

Con: gay people make me uncomfortable, I don't mind them being gay, but I don't want them making me uncomfortable by being openly gay all over the place like it was normal. They should live their gay, shame-filled, deviant lives behind closed doors, like S&M freaks.

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But that's what's going through every one of these jackasses minds when they're spouting off about "the institution of marriage".
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

I've got culture deviance marked down.

That is waning factor nowadays.


What else?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Boogahz »

While none of us can speak for entire communities, the relationships I have been exposed to among homosexual couples have lasted longer than the heterosexual couples I have been exposed to. The general fears among the people that fight so hard against homosexual unions are the damages done to any children involved and that they cannot have children within the relationship which is the "reason" for marriage. Neither is valid in my opinion, but I guess that is just because I lived it.

I still remember when I had my first conversation with my mother about her being gay. I had said something at lunch in 2nd or 3rd grade about her and her partner to a friend of mine who happened to be the son of one of my mother's friends. Now, this was in Lubbock, TX, where coming out was not a "safe" thing to do, so my mother addressed this with me. I can still remember this talk, and I would have no problem going through it with my own children (if I had them). This did no damage to me, and contrary to what the fundies would have people believe, it did not make me gay either. Think about any other "normal" marriage. How does sex play a role, other than making babies? How much of that marriage is REALLY based on sex, and how does that role translate into the relationship WITH the children? It is probably less than 10% of the relationship once kids are factored in, and this does not change based on the couples sexual orientation.

Don't forget that it was not too long ago that inter-racial couples would have been beaten with no recourse...and might still happen in areas.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

I think *a* fear of anti-gay marriage folk is the idea that the child brought into a gay family will be taught gay accepting culture set.

But that could be said of a muslim family not wanting their children to marry outside of their faith. A different culture set might be taught in the child's non-muslim family.

It's hard to nail down. Culture and faith determine what we see as wrong or right. That sense of wrong or right manifests into our law. Why is stealing wrong? Our common sense of wrong and right makes that judgement.

Theft is wrong because there is a majority of people who feel it is wrong? Theft can be slated into a freedom issue. Do I have the freedom to take someone else's property? It's my choice. Most people say no, you are harming the person you steal from.

What about adultery? Adultery in most cases harms the spouse. Yet this is not illegal anymore. There is a harm that people can see. Yet the freedom of the adulterer is deemed greater than the harm done to the spouse.

What about gay marriage? If your throw out cultural deviance as no longer significant. You get back to what is the harm?
Many claim gay marriage harms heterosexual marriage. How?
Many say that gay marriage harms the participants? How?
(for me) God says that gay anything is harmful. Why would he say that?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Boogahz »

Many claim gay marriage harms heterosexual marriage. How?
My father remarried after my parents divorced. He also had a homosexual partner that he was seeing at the same time he was with his wife before they finally divorced. Maybe that shows that not allowing homosexual marriage is just as, if not more, harmful to heterosexual marriage. :p

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

We don't answer these questions, and then we go vote our what we feel is right.

Its almost as if you can't come to agreement on something, majority rules.

right and wrong, morality by majority. scary.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Sueven »

For the list of pros: Equality.
Adex wrote:One government benefit of heterosexual marriage is having kids. If a country's culture degrades to a point where people decide not to build families, it hurts the tax base, the army ranks, the culture transfer etc.
So you do, of course, accept gay adoption as a positive?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Ashur »

I have no problem with gay adoption. There are children that need families.
- Ash

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

I don't know. Is it harmful? Does it hurt people?

The questions I'm asking help me decide this.

So far I've not been able to answer them.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Does having a family of any type, better than having a family formed by being in a state system?

Would you give a child to a family that's out in the hills waiting for the next nuclear war while homeschooling and cutting themselves off from society? There's a good chance for harm there but maybe that's better than no family at all? Maybe that's an extreme example, but it helps define that a judgement call is made.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Sylvus »

What's harm? You might think that a kid living in the hills being homeschooled is being harmed, but I would disagree. Other than putting a child with a family that is going to abuse (physically, emotionally, etc) or neglect them, I think allowing a child to be adopted by anyone who wants to love and take care of the child as their own is a better alternative to anything else, particularly making them a ward of the state.

Who cares what the child's parents do in the bedroom. I personally find the thought of two men having sex a little bit revolting - it's just not my cup of tea - but I also find the thought of my heterosexual parents having sex a little bit revolting. I appreciate the fact that they never did it in front of me, and I expect that virtually all parents, straight or gay, also do it behind closed doors.

With that being the case, why not let anyone with the means and desire to provide a loving, safe home for a child do just that?
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Ah so you do have conditions for the family before you'd feel comfortable providing a child to their care.

How are your conditions better than the next guys?

How do you hit that moving target?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Sueven »

Adex, that's an argument for absolutist moral relativism. Of course an abusive family is a harmful family. I would not allow an abusive gay couple to adopt a child any more than I would allow an abusive heterosexual couple to adopt a child. Adoption agencies should screen for abusive or otherwise seriously harmful families and prevent them from adopting, whether gay or straight. Nobody on this thread at least has articulated a real harm caused to a child by the sexuality of their parents, beyond a vague 'it acculturates them to homosexuality' argument that can be used against any identity that the parent has, whether racial, sexual, ethnic, religious, cultural or what have you.

Further, whether or not something causes harm is not the sole reason to support or oppose policy. A nonexhaustive list of further reasons: The legitimate role of government, justice, potential efficacy of policy intervention, alternatives, whether the policy constitutes a good use of resources, etc...

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

I agree.

There's lots of flak out there that seems to distract from the base issue.

How are homosexual acts harmful?
How do they apply to society?
If one can't spell these things out, why do we pass laws that handicap that freedom?

There is a theme through history where homosexuality is frowned upon (there are well know exceptions).
What generated that theme? How does it relate today?

On a side note, if all you allow are secular arguments, how do you escape moral relativism?
I don't mean for this to sound all puffed up.
I'm simply stuck between my faith which says its very wrong, and my secular angle that fails to define why its wrong.

The only way out of this that I see is if we write off the idea that only secular arguments are acceptable.
Everyone derives a sense of right and wrong from their religion, culture, and secular reasoning.
Somehow culture and faith fit into it. Or we'd be ok with sons marrying their fathers. That seems wrong. What tells you that its wrong. How does that manifest itself through law?

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Sueven »

I think your questions are good ones, and I don't think they can be reasonably answered in a way that would condemn gay marriage.

I am a moral relativist, but in a limited sense. Some moral issues are beyond any dispute (torturing and murdering someone for fun is wrong) while others are not (the moral status of abortion) and there are many shades of gray.

The fact that there is no absolute morality doesn't lead to the conclusion that all moral conclusions are created equal and there are no right and wrong positions. Some issues have right and wrong answers. In many cases, issues that don't have right or wrong answers have stronger or weaker answers.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Sylvus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:Ah so you do have conditions for the family before you'd feel comfortable providing a child to their care.

How are your conditions better than the next guys?

How do you hit that moving target?
Well, my conditions are pretty much the same conditions that have always existed for adoption. I think (perhaps I'm just relying on things I've seen on television and movies) that adoption agencies and whatnot have an interview process and determine whether or not a person/couple are fit to adopt a child. I think those criteria should stay the same for a gay individual/couple and their sexual orientation should not enter the picture whatsoever.

For example here are some criteria that turned up on a quick google search (from Western Australia, but I'd assume all places have something similar)
this site wrote:You need to be:

Over 18 years
if in a marriage or defacto relationship, the relationship has existed for at least 3 years
at least one person must be an Australian citizen and the other be a citizen of a country that gives similar rights to adopted persons
be a resident or domiciled in Western Australia
During assessment other criteria are also considered such as

your ability to be physically and mentally able to care for a child until the child turns 18
your relationship is stable
your ability to provide a suitable family environment
you have not been found guilty of certain offences.
you are of good repute
At the time when a child may be placed with you, other criteria also apply, such as;

your age
your ability to meet the cultural, ethnic, religious and educational needs of the child
the age of children currently in the family.
Objectively, none of those have anything to do with sexual preference of the adoptive parents. Subjectively, those with prejudices against homosexuality might be able to say that violates the "suitable family environment" or "cultural, ethnic, religious and educational needs" caveats, but I guess that's probably our sticking point.

I believe that if you fit all those other criteria, and are raise the child in a loving household, you're qualified to be a parent no matter what you like to have sex with.

There are plenty of shitty parents who are heterosexuals and I'm certain there are phenomenal homosexual parents who have already adopted/raised children. (Boog doesn't seem like a bad guy!) There are phenomenal straight parents and probably will be or have been shitty gay parents. Sexual preference is not at all an indicator of whether or not someone is fit to be a parent, and should not be a factor.

If the only qualms you can come up with come from a religious or faith-based perspective, and none from a secular one, I have trouble agreeing that laws should prevent it.
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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

I'm stuck with the sense that its wrong, but I can't express the harm or wrong, thus I shouldn't out respect for other's freedom oppose it.

An thus I'm supposed to vote for a thing that would encourage what I believe to be a harmful wrong.

Great! I've *reasoned* myself into an uncomfortable knot.


I need lunch. Cheap tacos, yet another thing that I know is harmful, yet I relish the freedom to eat them!

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Spang »

I don't think there's anything harmful in being raised by two moms or two dads, so long as they're both good parents.
Make love, fuck war, peace will save us.

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Nick »

Although we differ on this subject, it's good to see you back Adex :D

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Re: Prop 8 California

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Board posting was easier when I was in college.

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