Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

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Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Fash »

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/cbs.writer ... 97661.html
CHICAGO, Ill (CBS) ― News writers for CBS have set a Dec. 10 strike date, casting doubt on whether the network will be able to air its planned presidential debate.

The timing of the strike appears to be an attempt by union leadership to disrupt CBS plans for a presidential debate the same day.


Several Democratic presidential candidates-including Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, John Edwards and New York Sen. Hillary Clinton--have said they would not cross a picket line to participate in a debate.

Members of the writer's union were notified of the strike date via email today. The writers working for both the CBS network newscasts and local news stations have been working without a contract for more than 2 years.
Hey I'm all in favor of the writers guild (at least in hollywood, fighting for a bigger share of modern content distribution deals)

but 1.) why did Hillary and Obama pledge to not cross a picket line? (they have nothing to do with it, they aren't scabs because they aren't writing) and 2.) why would a writers strike stop a debate where all the questions come from YouTube?

Lame.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Abelard »

why did Hillary and Obama pledge to not cross a picket line?

I would think a combination of votes/negative publicity/appearing as if they don't respect the common american.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Sylvus »

Fash wrote:but 1.) why did Hillary and Obama pledge to not cross a picket line? (they have nothing to do with it, they aren't scabs because they aren't writing)
I'm not sure where you live exactly, or if unions have a strong presence there, but usually when a union is picketing something, they do their very best to discourage anyone at all from attempting to cross the picket line. This includes other employees/members of the business/organization, customers, etc.

Michigan is a huge union state, and recently one of my buddies built a new building for his electronics/appliance store. The general contractor he hired went with a non-union electrician, so the local IBEW chapter was picketing his business (which in itself is another story; shouldn't they picket the contractor who doesn't use a union shop, rather than the guy who hired the contractor...). My roommate is a member of the IBEW, and he couldn't even go into the store to buy a new TV without catching all kinds of shit from the union.

It's kind of messed up the way it works, but it could be very politically damaging for the candidates to cross any sort of a picket line. I'm not sure if you're aware that most unions endorse a candidate that they encourage all of the union members to vote for. And most unions, even if unrelated to another union who was "violated" (for lack of a better term) by someone crossing the picket line, will frown upon non-union-friendly candidates.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Unions are total shit. Strikes are total shit. This was proven to me by the what, 3 years of Northwest Airlines strikes here? During their strikes I worked for my girlfriends mom's courier company. I drove documents back and forth from brokers to customs (at the airport), and so I would have to cross their lines every day. They would heckle people and try to block them from being able to drive into the parking lots and cuss you out and all sorts of shit, and the cops would just stand there and watch, fucking pathetic. So I took matters into my own hands, I would be sure I had something to throw at them out my window as often as possible, and I would do my best to roll down my window and greet them with a smile and a "get a job you fucking bum" every time I drove by them - which was dozens of times a day. Interestingly enough they shut their fucking mouths after a week or so.

The other union I had experience with was when I worked at lunds (a grocery store) when I was younger. Everyone talked about how great their union was.. Yeah it was real great, so great that the union would get people their jobs back who were fired because they were caught on camera stealing.. that's really the kind of organization to show respect to.

Fuck unions, and if whiny fucks want to go on strike and not work, don't give them their goddamn jobs back. If you want more money, find a profession that pays you more, but the writers do not deserve a penny more than they are making - and I say that not even having a clue what they make.

If I was a business owner of any size/type of business I can tell you right now the second someone even said the word union they'd get shit canned.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Nick »

Yeah let's totally celebrate the assertion that employees shouldn't have any rights whatsoever that is really progressive.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:Yeah let's totally celebrate the assertion that employees shouldn't have any rights whatsoever that is really progressive.
That's complete bullshit. If you are trying to make unions out to be altruistic organizations you are ignorant. Because airplane mechanics who were making over 100k a year and went on strike because they weren't paid enough really had ground to stand on, writers in the same boat. Or the person stealing has the right to still work at the store because, oh I don't know?

There are federal and state minimum wages in place, if people have an issue with what those are then they can express this to their government. If they are being unfairly treated there are also ways to deal with that. Unions do as much or more damage as they do good.

I don't have a union protecting me and I am doing just fine. Am I supposed to feel some kind of pity for the person that is bagging groceries at the age of 40 because they never made something of themselves and needs a union to get them overpaid (it's actually sickening what some of the people in the grocery stores w/ better unions around here get paid)?

Or how about other types of jobs that are union-heavy, like the trades? I know plumbers,electricians, etc and all of them make more than I do - yes the guys in unions do better, but the ones that are not in unions still make damn good money.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Nick »

You have no idea why the writers are on strike do you? Only a complete fucking moron is against the writer's strike.

And for the record, no I'm not saying Unions are brilliant and guilt free in certain places, but tarring all unions with the same "LOL GET A JOB" brush is absolutely retarded.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:You have no idea why the writers are on strike do you? Only a complete fucking moron is against the writer's strike.

And for the record, no I'm not saying Unions are brilliant and guilt free in certain places, but tarring all unions with the same "LOL GET A JOB" brush is absolutely retarded.

I could care less why they are on strike, I am completely against people going on strike unless there is an extreme reason (like physical abuse, something like that taking place) which would be handled by the police anyhow. I am against unions, I can't stand activists, and I really just don't care to hear a word they have to say.

I am just guessing that it has to do with money, because usually when people go on strike that is why. And if that is the case, they DO NOT need any more money than they are getting. They are writers, they are disposable, any writer could come up with the garbage on tv nowadays. The writers are not what sells the shows (for the most part) - the actors are, and they are not the media companies who make the investment to get the shows up and running, so there is no reason for them to have leverage.

If I am completely off base on why they are bent out of shape then I apologize, but chances are I'm still going to think it's a bullshit reason.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Funkmasterr wrote:If I was a business owner of any size/type of business I can tell you right now the second someone even said the word union they'd get shit canned.
Ahahahaha you're a retard. Thankfully you're never going to open anything more than a lemonade stand, so employees are safe from you.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Nick »

Once again Funkmasterr proves beyond all doubt that he is a complete fucking moron who's opinion is laughably, criminally and absolutely intellectually irrelevant.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:If I was a business owner of any size/type of business I can tell you right now the second someone even said the word union they'd get shit canned.
Ahahahaha you're a retard. Thankfully you're never going to open anything more than a lemonade stand, so employees are safe from you.
What exactly is it that people need to be protected from you ignorant fool? Their own lazy ass selves? How many people posting here are a union member? Probably few to none, and besides the normal gripes everyone has about their jobs I'm sure they are just fine.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:Once again Funkmasterr proves beyond all doubt that he is a complete fucking moron who's opinion is laughably, criminally and absolutely intellectually irrelevant.
Right moron, I've had more personal experience with unions than probably most people here combined. I was a manager at the grocery store and was involved with the union constantly. I was a construction manager for several years and worked with a variety of trades who were all union, and had to deal with their union shot on a daily basis. I had my experience with the airline people. I assure you I am far more familiar with how they work than you are, and the fact you and your fucking moron buddy above you think you have any business second guessing me is hilarious.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Nick »

You really are embarrassing yourself at this point, I'd suggest shutting up, or better yet, deleting your posts.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:You really are embarrassing yourself at this point, I'd suggest shutting up, or better yet, deleting your posts.
Explain to me how, I am speaking from personal experience. You tell me your first hand experience or facts that disprove what I am saying, or I am far from the stupid one.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Fash »

Ok kids, cut it out.

The Writers strike I actually agree with... The thing is about modern distribution deals. When DVD came out, "to help the format grow," the writers took a reduced percentage... The format has grown, but their percentage never did. Now with internet and other modern delivery systems, the studios are trying to give them something between nothing and the dvd rate. They deserve to get more, I agree... I just don't see why the studios fight them to the point of a strike, and then cry about how much money they're losing daily. Give in and give them what they deserve because without writers, you have nothing!... 4% is crap.

For other union issues, I'm against them. In 95% of cases, they are no longer necessary. They had good intentions at the start (like religion) but they've been twisted and corrupted. Unions are a failed concept (like religion) that needs to go away. People need to stand up for themselves, not stand with a herd... and some people need to be fired, despite their affiliations and connections.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Nick »

Explain to me how, I am speaking from personal experience. You tell me your first hand experience or facts that disprove what I am saying, or I am far from the stupid one.
No. You forfeited any right to determine the direction of this discussion as soon as you started opening your mouth on unions. Once you start backing up your own retarded one liners then I may (or may not, depending on my mood) give you the benefit of the doubt and start having a discussion beyond !"LOL FUCKING UNION WORKERS ROFL!"

You are the one stating workers don't have the right to fair representation, you are the clueless shitstain who's spewing moronicisms onto the board about the writer's strike when you have no fucking clue what's going on and you are the one failing to understand anything beyond a manicheastic viewpoint for virtually anything on the planet. The onus is on you to justify your stupid posts, not on me to start teaching you primary school education you fucking dolt.

:roll:

Edit: don't bother replying "I couldn't give a shit about the writers union strikes". You posted your idiocy, therefore you should give a shit enough to defend your own opinion.
Last edited by Nick on November 28, 2007, 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Somali »

Do you honestly believe that employees would have no rights if not for unions?

I won't argue that there will not be times when employees of a company would need to come together into an impromptu "union" to fight against an unfair policy. I do not support ongoing unions that constantly interfere with day to day business or intelligent business decisions. Companies can be bad, but so can unions.

I've seen things similar to Funk, I've seen unions defend members and prevent them from being disciplined when the union member refused to take calls in a call center because he had not been to training on a product. You should understand that the person in question knew exactly how to operate the hardware in question, but the training classes were not available in the area. The union member refused to work on the hardware until he could be sent to a remote training class (for a vacation). As a result he took 1 call every few days since the legacy product sets he worked on had low call volume. Despite the fact that he knew how to use the hardware, he refused to take calls yet was paid equal wage to the other personnel.
Another wonderful point is that he filed greivances against other union employees to prevent them working on calls they were not trained on, even if they were comfortable taking calls. He had seniority, so they could not lay him off. Instead, they laid off younger members who were doing their jobs when cutbacks came down the line. With a union, it doesn't necessarily matter what you know, it just matters how long you've been there and how well you understand the union regs.

On the stealing note, the union would also defend on call personnel that asked customers to call back after they had spoken to them for 16 minutes. (the way the contract was written, on call techs were paid for 1 hour of time for calls under 15 minutes and 2 hours for an excess of 15 minutes. On call techs were known to ask customers to call them back in 5 minutes after they had been on the phone for slightly over 15 minutes (so they could double bill). One on call tech logged 28 hours of on call time for talking to 2 customers. Total time out of his day to work the calls? Just over 6 hours.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Nick »

Somali wrote:I do not support ongoing unions that constantly interfere with day to day business or intelligent business decisions. Companies can be bad, but so can unions.
I don't remember stating that unions were perfect, could you please refer me to where I did? Otherwise, could you remain on topic instead of shitting up the thread with your stories that no one cares about that have nothing to do with the OP?
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

For every negative story you post, I can post a positive one, and so we can dismiss each other's statements as, at worst, lies or, at best, as being apocryphal.

For my money, unions do more good than they do harm. And yes, I am a union member. I am a member because of the advantages it gives me with regards to unemployment benefits, additional healthcare, and the knowledge that someone is there to back me up should my employer decide to fuck me over. I've worked in all-union-workplaces and non-unionized workplaces, and my experience (again, dismiss it as apocryphal if you will) has generally been that the union 'shops' are more secure, better managed and less of a hassle to deal with on an administrative level.

I know I said that I wouldn't go into specific cases, but I lied. Sue me.
My mom was a schoolteacher for 32 years. She got sick, and was away from her job for two months. Her employer (the city) tried to transfer her to a different school that would mean 50 minutes extra commute each way, with a schedule that had 3 hours of break around lunch every day. She refused to accept a workday that would be, effectively, 4 hours longer. They fired her. Her being in the union meant that she had legal representation without having to pay for it herself and had the weight of the union behind her in those proceedings.

My scorn at you, Funk, is that you're troll enough or dumb enough to claim that you'd fire anyone who opened their mouth about unions or unionizing. That, to me, is completely clueless and reactionary as all fuck.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:
Explain to me how, I am speaking from personal experience. You tell me your first hand experience or facts that disprove what I am saying, or I am far from the stupid one.
No. You forfeited any right to determine the direction of this discussion as soon as you started opening your mouth on unions. Once you start backing up your own retarded one liners then I may (or may not, depending on my mood) give you the benefit of the doubt and start having a discussion beyond !"LOL FUCKING UNION WORKERS ROFL!"

You are the one stating workers don't have the right to fair representation, you are the clueless shitstain who's spewing moronicisms onto the board about the writer's strike when you have no fucking clue what's going on and you are the one failing to understand anything beyond a manicheastic viewpoint for virtually anything on the planet. The onus is on you to justify your stupid posts, not on me to start teaching you primary school education you fucking dolt.

:roll:

Edit: don't bother replying "I couldn't give a shit about the writers union strikes". You posted your idiocy, therefore you should give a shit enough to defend your own opinion.
You are still misunderstanding the situation, I am speaking from personal experience that you nor anyone else can discredit/disprove, that is better than any bullshit "fact" you could try and throw in my face about what is going on.

Unions are not just bad sometimes, they are corrupt organizations. They are around to help employees about as much as the United Way is to be a charity. Want me to list a few reasons why?:

1- We (being consumers) are the ones that pay for undereducated and lazy people in a retail/union situation to be paid more than they deserve. The reason for that is - wages are driven up by the union, do you think the corporations just take that hit and smile? No, it drives product prices up to make up for the difference.
So because someone has a sub par job and wants to make more money, I pay more. People bagging groceries are making as much as the specialized support people at my company, that's pathetic.

2- The numerous examples of shady shit that I gave you above- that are already being reinforced by other people. These types of things are not uncommon, they were the norm everywhere I went. People failing drug tests, stealing, fighting, no call/no show, etc etc etc and the union would get them their job back THE NEXT DAY.

I don't have a problem with the Idealistic reason unions are around, but the fact of the matter is that is far from the main thing they do nowadays. They give people leverage to do things they shouldn't be doing and get away with them, and to whine about pay when in most cases they are getting paid what they should.

And that is just for a retail type union, the unions for tradesmen are nuts. Those guys get paid so much more than they deserve in most cases that it makes my head spin. From job site to job site, I would see every type of worker you can think of spending half their day smoking and bullshitting with people, the other half the day they would be working either just hard enough to get shit done on time, or often times they couldn't even meet the simple deadlines they had. And many of these guys were making upwards of 60 or 70 DOLLARD/HOUR, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? I was not in a union, I knew how to do the basics of everything every one of them did and I busted my ass all fucking day long (usually 12 hour days) and I made a fraction of what they did - I had no union to represent me and I didn't need one, because if you work hard and apply yourself you will be successful without anyone helping you.

I know what I'm talking about, I've given you examples and reasons (multiple times now) but you will just discredit it anyhow because you think you are somehow more informed on this topic, and as wrong as you definitely are - it is your right to think what you want.

And if it is some great reason the writers are on strike then tell me what it is. I strongly doubt I will feel a bit bad for them for whatever reason, but if they are making a penny over 30 or 40k a year I will tell you right now they are over paid.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:For every negative story you post, I can post a positive one, and so we can dismiss each other's statements as, at worst, lies or, at best, as being apocryphal.

For my money, unions do more good than they do harm. And yes, I am a union member. I am a member because of the advantages it gives me with regards to unemployment benefits, additional healthcare, and the knowledge that someone is there to back me up should my employer decide to fuck me over. I've worked in all-union-workplaces and non-unionized workplaces, and my experience (again, dismiss it as apocryphal if you will) has generally been that the union 'shops' are more secure, better managed and less of a hassle to deal with on an administrative level.

I know I said that I wouldn't go into specific cases, but I lied. Sue me.
My mom was a schoolteacher for 32 years. She got sick, and was away from her job for two months. Her employer (the city) tried to transfer her to a different school that would mean 50 minutes extra commute each way, with a schedule that had 3 hours of break around lunch every day. She refused to accept a workday that would be, effectively, 4 hours longer. They fired her. Her being in the union meant that she had legal representation without having to pay for it herself and had the weight of the union behind her in those proceedings.

My scorn at you, Funk, is that you're troll enough or dumb enough to claim that you'd fire anyone who opened their mouth about unions or unionizing. That, to me, is completely clueless and reactionary as all fuck.
Why am I not surprised that a union member would like unions? There's no point in even arguing with you about it. And I made the comment I did because I see the bullshit that unions pull to keep no good pieces of shit on the job on a daily basis, and I don't need that headache. No one does.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Nick »

I don't really even give two shits about unions one way or the other, this is just fascinating watching such a self-righteous explosion of laughable ignorance.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:I don't really even give two shits about unions one way or the other, this is just fascinating watching such a self-righteous explosion of laughable ignorance.
Are you just going to continue to toss your usual insults around without adding a single thing to this conversation? I typed up a long reply and addressing what you said but you haven't interjected a single fact or opinion on the matter yet.. And I'm ignorant? el oh el. And if you don't care about the unions one way or the other, then explain why you cared enough to post a single word in this topic, because the issue really boils down to the unions that are allowing these fucking peons to sit on their asses and get paid to whine until someone tosses them a bone.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Canelek »

You threw things at people on strike?
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Canelek wrote:You threw things at people on strike?
Absolutely, after they had stood in front of my car so i couldn't move multiple times, cussed me out every time I drove into the parking lot, and multiple other things, along with harassing my girlfriend and her mom who also had to go there. The cops obviously weren't going to do shit so I took matters into my own hands, I got out of the car and went off on a couple of them, threw some shit at a few of them that tried to walk in front of my car, and they backed off.

Some of the highest paid mechanics in the country going on strike because they got a pay cut from 150k a year to 110 is absurd enough (oh poor babies had to sell their second boat), but them harassing people that are just trying to do their fucking job is unacceptable, and neither is anyone that would defend them doing so.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Canelek »

Kinda dangerous to confront a mob is all... however, if folks were threatening my friends/wimmins/family I would react poorly as well... so I will concede that.

To the issue about:
Some of the highest paid mechanics in the country going on strike because they got a pay cut from 150k a year to 110 is absurd enough (oh poor babies had to sell their second boat), but them harassing people that are just trying to do their fucking job is unacceptable, and neither is anyone that would defend them doing so.
So you have a problem with people being upset over a 40K paycut? That seems a pretty fucking significant number. I am no mechanic, but I would hazard a guess that these people working on planes are not exactly the folks at Jiffy Lube (no offense, of course, Jiffy Lube techs do a great and prompt job). Damn fucking skippy most people (union or no) would be more than a little upset about that paycut.

2nd boat? You are comparing 150K/year to millionaires? You do realize that is gross income, no? Granted, it is better than your average grocery store employee or caddie is making, but to call their strike absurd because YOU do not think they are worth their salaries.... your animosity towards crowds of people and labor laws is a bit unfounded, to say the least.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Canelek wrote:Kinda dangerous to confront a mob is all... however, if folks were threatening my friends/wimmins/family I would react poorly as well... so I will concede that.

To the issue about:
Some of the highest paid mechanics in the country going on strike because they got a pay cut from 150k a year to 110 is absurd enough (oh poor babies had to sell their second boat), but them harassing people that are just trying to do their fucking job is unacceptable, and neither is anyone that would defend them doing so.
So you have a problem with people being upset over a 40K paycut? That seems a pretty fucking significant number. I am no mechanic, but I would hazard a guess that these people working on planes are not exactly the folks at Jiffy Lube (no offense, of course, Jiffy Lube techs do a great and prompt job). Damn fucking skippy most people (union or no) would be more than a little upset about that paycut.

2nd boat? You are comparing 150K/year to millionaires? You do realize that is gross income, no? Granted, it is better than your average grocery store employee or caddie is making, but to call their strike absurd because YOU do not think they are worth their salaries.... your animosity towards crowds of people and labor laws is a bit unfounded, to say the least.
The company was going bankrupt, they had to make cuts, that's the way it works. The only ground they were trying to stand on was that the highest up people were not taking paycuts, WELL BIG SURPRISE THERE! They are the last people to lose their money and that is the way it should be. If people did not live beyond their means or stretch their income to afford them a bunch of shit they don't need, when something like this happen it wouldn't wreck their lives.

And btw, I said boat, not yacht. When this happened there was a large amount of boats/snow mobiles/jet ski's/other shit people don't need for sale because they couldn't afford all of their luxuries anymore, boo fucking hoo, shit happens - move on and deal with it.

And it wasn't exactly a mob, there are like 10 entrances from the road to the complex I would drive into, and there were 2-4 people at each entrance.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Zaelath »

Funkmasterr wrote: The company was going bankrupt, they had to make cuts, that's the way it works. The only ground they were trying to stand on was that the highest up people were not taking paycuts, WELL BIG SURPRISE THERE! They are the last people to lose their money and that is the way it should be. If people did not live beyond their means or stretch their income to afford them a bunch of shit they don't need, when something like this happen it wouldn't wreck their lives.

And btw, I said boat, not yacht. When this happened there was a large amount of boats/snow mobiles/jet ski's/other shit people don't need for sale because they couldn't afford all of their luxuries anymore, boo fucking hoo, shit happens - move on and deal with it.

And it wasn't exactly a mob, there are like 10 entrances from the road to the complex I would drive into, and there were 2-4 people at each entrance.
On the other hand, if you can't make a profit in an industry paying the same wages as the rest of the industry perhaps you should GTFO.

To continue the derail...

Plus the idea that corporate wages are just a fact of life is utterly retarded. There's no sane reason you should get paid a $5 million wage for running a company at a loss, or that indeed you can justify it by market forces. It's a boys club where the board and executive are robbing the share holders.

Here's a nice piece from the teamsters: http://www.teamster.org/06news/hn_060103_2.htm
In the 1993-1995 period, public companies in the United States paid their top five executives the equivalent of 5 percent of profits, according to compensation researchers Lucian Bebchuk of Harvard University and Jesse Fried of the University of California at Berkeley. By 2000-2002 it had reached a staggering 12.8 percent of corporate profits. The drain declined, but was still significant at almost 10 percent in the 2001-2003 period, the latest stretch of time the two law professors considered.

The problems with executive compensation are not limited to one company or industry, or even to "bad apples," according to Bebchuk and Fried. Instead, "flawed compensation arrangements ... have been widespread, persistent and systemic," they suggested in a recent research paper. The two have written extensively about the flaws in the system, and have made some reasoned suggestions to improve it. Among them:

* Do not reward executives for higher stock prices that merely reflect trends in the general market or the economy.
* Tie bonuses to long-term performance, not short-term boosts.
* Reconsider special executive pensions that protect officers from any risk to their retirement benefits.
* Scale back overly generous severance.
* Clearly spell out total compensation and retirement benefits to shareholders. While salaries, bonuses, stock options, other equity rewards and some perks must be reported annually, the value of pensions and other benefits are often difficult to determine.

For years, corporations have defended super-sized pay packages as necessary to keep up with what competitors are paying. They're paying executives to come to a company, they're paying them to stay, and they're even paying them enormous sums to leave. But it's all shareholders' money, and at a minimum, shareholders ought to have a greater voice in how it's spent.
None of those ideas seem unreasonable, and several of them are very important unless you want to actively encourage your CEO to fuck your company long term to get a massive bonus this year.

back to the pay cut.. that's about a 26% pay cut. If you were on $50K and were told "regardless of productivity or how well you're doing your job, next year you're on $37K, oh and I'm getting a salary bump as CEO to $4000K", do you think you would be licking his arse crack in thanks for letting you keep your job?

That's not to say unions don't get out of hand, but the other option is to put your trust in the mega rich and the government to look out for your interests, neither of whom give a shit about you.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Ashur »

"No one gives a shit about you, except you" is the universal truth in employment.

Back on topic...

Hillary has every reason to look for a just cause to duck out of debates. She's in the lead and is the one candidate all the others are looking to embarass and they're succeeding.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Zaelath wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote: The company was going bankrupt, they had to make cuts, that's the way it works. The only ground they were trying to stand on was that the highest up people were not taking paycuts, WELL BIG SURPRISE THERE! They are the last people to lose their money and that is the way it should be. If people did not live beyond their means or stretch their income to afford them a bunch of shit they don't need, when something like this happen it wouldn't wreck their lives.

And btw, I said boat, not yacht. When this happened there was a large amount of boats/snow mobiles/jet ski's/other shit people don't need for sale because they couldn't afford all of their luxuries anymore, boo fucking hoo, shit happens - move on and deal with it.

And it wasn't exactly a mob, there are like 10 entrances from the road to the complex I would drive into, and there were 2-4 people at each entrance.
On the other hand, if you can't make a profit in an industry paying the same wages as the rest of the industry perhaps you should GTFO.

To continue the derail...

Plus the idea that corporate wages are just a fact of life is utterly retarded. There's no sane reason you should get paid a $5 million wage for running a company at a loss, or that indeed you can justify it by market forces. It's a boys club where the board and executive are robbing the share holders.

Here's a nice piece from the teamsters: http://www.teamster.org/06news/hn_060103_2.htm
In the 1993-1995 period, public companies in the United States paid their top five executives the equivalent of 5 percent of profits, according to compensation researchers Lucian Bebchuk of Harvard University and Jesse Fried of the University of California at Berkeley. By 2000-2002 it had reached a staggering 12.8 percent of corporate profits. The drain declined, but was still significant at almost 10 percent in the 2001-2003 period, the latest stretch of time the two law professors considered.

The problems with executive compensation are not limited to one company or industry, or even to "bad apples," according to Bebchuk and Fried. Instead, "flawed compensation arrangements ... have been widespread, persistent and systemic," they suggested in a recent research paper. The two have written extensively about the flaws in the system, and have made some reasoned suggestions to improve it. Among them:

* Do not reward executives for higher stock prices that merely reflect trends in the general market or the economy.
* Tie bonuses to long-term performance, not short-term boosts.
* Reconsider special executive pensions that protect officers from any risk to their retirement benefits.
* Scale back overly generous severance.
* Clearly spell out total compensation and retirement benefits to shareholders. While salaries, bonuses, stock options, other equity rewards and some perks must be reported annually, the value of pensions and other benefits are often difficult to determine.

For years, corporations have defended super-sized pay packages as necessary to keep up with what competitors are paying. They're paying executives to come to a company, they're paying them to stay, and they're even paying them enormous sums to leave. But it's all shareholders' money, and at a minimum, shareholders ought to have a greater voice in how it's spent.
None of those ideas seem unreasonable, and several of them are very important unless you want to actively encourage your CEO to fuck your company long term to get a massive bonus this year.

back to the pay cut.. that's about a 26% pay cut. If you were on $50K and were told "regardless of productivity or how well you're doing your job, next year you're on $37K, oh and I'm getting a salary bump as CEO to $4000K", do you think you would be licking his arse crack in thanks for letting you keep your job?

That's not to say unions don't get out of hand, but the other option is to put your trust in the mega rich and the government to look out for your interests, neither of whom give a shit about you.
Of course not, but if I was unable to live off what my decreased pay would be I would find another job. I wouldn't sit on a street corner for 18 months bitching about it like a fucking child.

On topic - again fuck their picket line, if hillary pops a sqaut over it and shits on the picket line I will immediately change my stance on her and will vote for her in 08, I guarantee it.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Aslanna »

Funkmasterr wrote:The company was going bankrupt, they had to make cuts, that's the way it works. The only ground they were trying to stand on was that the highest up people were not taking paycuts, WELL BIG SURPRISE THERE! They are the last people to lose their money and that is the way it should be. If people did not live beyond their means or stretch their income to afford them a bunch of shit they don't need, when something like this happen it wouldn't wreck their lives.
Two issues with this. Who said they were living beyond their means? I think a nearly 27% pay cut would impact just about anyone who could very well be living 'within their means' at the current time. Could you hoselty take a 27% pay cut without complaint and potential financial hardship? I'm going to guess no. Secondly, how do you know they bought a bunch of shit they don't need? Did you check out each one individually to make sure they really did have a second (or even first for that matter) boat?

Actually, I have three issues. The last one being... If the fucking company was going bankrupt you'd think all employees would make sacrifices to ensure it's survival and not just the "higest up people" being immune. Why should it be that they are the last people to lose their money?
Funkmasterr wrote:And it wasn't exactly a mob, there are like 10 entrances from the road to the complex I would drive into, and there were 2-4 people at each entrance.
You're losing street cred by the minute.
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Re: Strike to cancel Debate? ...why?

Post by Funkmasterr »

Aslanna wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:The company was going bankrupt, they had to make cuts, that's the way it works. The only ground they were trying to stand on was that the highest up people were not taking paycuts, WELL BIG SURPRISE THERE! They are the last people to lose their money and that is the way it should be. If people did not live beyond their means or stretch their income to afford them a bunch of shit they don't need, when something like this happen it wouldn't wreck their lives.
Two issues with this. Who said they were living beyond their means? I think a nearly 27% pay cut would impact just about anyone who could very well be living 'within their means' at the current time. Could you hoselty take a 27% pay cut without complaint and potential financial hardship? I'm going to guess no. Secondly, how do you know they bought a bunch of shit they don't need? Did you check out each one individually to make sure they really did have a second (or even first for that matter) boat?

Actually, I have three issues. The last one being... If the fucking company was going bankrupt you'd think all employees would make sacrifices to ensure it's survival and not just the "higest up people" being immune. Why should it be that they are the last people to lose their money?
Funkmasterr wrote:And it wasn't exactly a mob, there are like 10 entrances from the road to the complex I would drive into, and there were 2-4 people at each entrance.
You're losing street cred by the minute.
Maybe not necessarily living beyond their means, but if you buy all sorts of shit you don't need, and are stretching what you make to the limit, you are a moron. And considering my girlfriend and I only make about 75k/yr combined and live in a decent place and are able to afford some stuff we don't need without stretching us thin, I think someone in the same economy as myself shouldn't be having issues if 1 person in the household is making twice what we do combined.

I think I outlined the "how do you know they had shit they don't need" by saying that our market in MN was flooded with unnecessary shit like atv's/snowmobiles/motorcycles/boats/etc, etc when this happened - it could have been a coincidence but I severely doubt it.

And the highest up people get cut last, that's the way it works. I might not like it either but I don't find it necessary to bitch, whine and complain about every little injustice in the world like some people (and get quite sick and tired of listening to other people do so.) I just move on and do the best I can do on my own, because that is who I depend on to keep myself afloat, myself. Not a union, not a specific employer, or anyone else.
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