Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Spang »

I recently finished watching this. It's pretty interesting (my initial response to follow). From the website:
Join Intelligence Squared for the first ever global debate on hip-hop. Is hip-hop the authentic voice of the oppressed that turns anger into poetry and political action? Or is it a glorification of all that holds back oppressed minorities and hinders them from mainstream assimilation?

In the third of our Versus series of debates with Google we’re bringing together some of the biggest names in hip-hop to debate these questions. Some of the speakers will be on stage at the Barbican Centre and others will be appearing on the big screen via the Google+ Hangout technology. We have rappers such as KRS-One, ?uestlove, Q-Tip and Estelle, and renowned US hip-hop intellectuals such as Touré, Michael Eric Dyson, Tricia Rose and dream hampton. We’re bringing over civil rights campaigner Jesse Jackson, once a critic and now in the hip-hop camp.

Hip-hop and all it stands for has moved well beyond its black American roots. We’ll also be hearing from John Sutherland, Victorian fiction expert, who is a hip-hop aficionado, and we’re bringing over the Egyptian rapper Deeb who was involved in the Tahrir Square uprising and thinks hip-hop has fostered revolution in North Africa.

[...]
I think what's most interesting about this entire debate, is that there was a debate on hip-hop music, a predominantly black musical art form, in the first place, and not, say, country music or death metal, predominantly white musical art forms.

Missing from the panel were any of the wealthy white men who have profited the most from the negative forms of hip-hop music -- the commercialized bullshit that dominate radio, television and film -- wealthy white men who are largely responsible. When hip-hop started in the late 70s and early 80s, the bad, "degrading-to-society" style of hip-hop music was non-existent.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aslanna »

Rap and Hip Hop sucks. So does Death Metal. And (most) modern County music as well. Which is really just "twangy pop" so not even sure how some of it ends up being classified as Country.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:I recently finished watching this. It's pretty interesting (my initial response to follow). From the website:
Join Intelligence Squared for the first ever global debate on hip-hop. Is hip-hop the authentic voice of the oppressed that turns anger into poetry and political action? Or is it a glorification of all that holds back oppressed minorities and hinders them from mainstream assimilation?

In the third of our Versus series of debates with Google we’re bringing together some of the biggest names in hip-hop to debate these questions. Some of the speakers will be on stage at the Barbican Centre and others will be appearing on the big screen via the Google+ Hangout technology. We have rappers such as KRS-One, ?uestlove, Q-Tip and Estelle, and renowned US hip-hop intellectuals such as Touré, Michael Eric Dyson, Tricia Rose and dream hampton. We’re bringing over civil rights campaigner Jesse Jackson, once a critic and now in the hip-hop camp.

Hip-hop and all it stands for has moved well beyond its black American roots. We’ll also be hearing from John Sutherland, Victorian fiction expert, who is a hip-hop aficionado, and we’re bringing over the Egyptian rapper Deeb who was involved in the Tahrir Square uprising and thinks hip-hop has fostered revolution in North Africa.

[...]
I think what's most interesting about this entire debate, is that there was a debate on hip-hop music, a predominantly black musical art form, in the first place, and not, say, country music or death metal, predominantly white musical art forms.

Missing from the panel were any of the wealthy white men who have profited the most from the negative forms of hip-hop music -- the commercialized bullshit that dominate radio, television and film -- wealthy white men who are largely responsible. When hip-hop started in the late 70s and early 80s, the bad, "degrading-to-society" style of hip-hop music was non-existent.
While you are right to a point about the wealthy white men making money, it's not entirely true. People like Jay Z starting his own record label and then requiring a major company to sign his entire label and not just him have changed that up a bit, it keeps a lot more of the money with the people making the music.

And I would argue that there shitty pop hip hop didn't start until post 2000. While the 90's did see a lot of gangsta rap music, it was truly an art form and lyricism was still at the center of it. There's still plenty of good hip hop with meaningful lyrics around today, you just have to try a little harder to find it.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Spang »

Aslanna wrote:Rap and Hip Hop sucks.
Does rap and hip-hop suck? wasn't the question asked at the debate.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aslanna »

That's because there is no question about it: It does.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Chidoro »

Aslanna wrote:Rap and Hip Hop sucks. So does Death Metal. And (most) modern County music as well. Which is really just "twangy pop" so not even sure how some of it ends up being classified as Country.
This.

sorry spang, looks like you soaked up all of the white guilt on this board
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aabidano »

Is hip-hop the authentic voice of the oppressed that turns anger into poetry and political action?
In some cases, far from all. Early hip hop grew out of funk, which could be political as well but generally wasn't.
Or is it a glorification of all that holds back oppressed minorities and hinders them from mainstream assimilation?
Quoting Richard Pryor slightly out of context, "it's a symbol of their own wretchedness". Definitely holds them down, while rich evil whitey is a factor it's also widely self-imposed & perpetuated. Throw well meaning(?) parents giving their kids "African" names and ebonics (which seems to be alive and well) into that category too.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Spang »

Chidoro wrote:sorry spang, looks like you soaked up all of the white guilt on this board
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

I guess I always assumed there was more culture and less fucking ignorance on this board than there is, clearly. It is kinda odd that I subject myself to it too, since in my real life I would never associate with nerdy white folk that can't stand rap/hip hop and love computers, it's just not my style.

Anyhow, there is still an abundance of hip hop music that has just as much meaning infused into it, and involves just as much talent as any other kind of music. It's fine if you don't like it, but saying it uniformly sucks and making bullshit racial comments saying that the struggle many people have fought against through their music is made up is fucking bullshit. I'd imagine any of you saying hip hop is garbage haven't listened to any of it other than a song here and there in a bar or on the radio/tv in years, so how precisely is that a sufficient sampling to make that comment?

Just a list of people off the top of my head that could give anyone in any other genre a run for their money in the talent/creativity department:

Producers:
J Dilla
9th Wonder
?uestlove
Hi-Tek
The Alchemist
Amp Live
DJ Premier
RZA

Rappers:
Talib Kweli
Mos Def (Yasiin Bey)
The Black Opera
Binary Star
Lupe Fiasco
Pharoahe Monch
Jean Grae
The Roots (Black Thought)
Nas
Jay Electronica
Brother Ali
Little Brother
Zion I

That's just people that are still around now (aside from Dilla), not a lot of the legends that aren't making music anymore or are dead.
Last edited by Funkmasterr on July 10, 2012, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Spang »

Aabidano wrote:Throw well meaning(?) parents giving their kids "African" names and ebonics (which seems to be alive and well) into that category too.
I just came across this article on Understanding African-American Language.
[...]

Janice Jackson, another team member who is also working on a Ph.D. in communication disorders, conducted an experiment using pictures of Sesame Street characters to test children's comprehension of the "habitual be" construction. She showed the kids a picture in which Cookie Monster is sick in bed with no cookies while Elmo stands nearby eating cookies. When she asked, "Who be eating cookies?" white kids tended to point to Elmo while black kids chose Cookie Monster. "But," Jackson relates, "when I asked, 'Who is eating cookies?' the black kids understood that it was Elmo and that it was not the same. That was an important piece of information." Because those children had grown up with a language whose verb forms differentiate habitual action from currently occuring action (Gaelic also features such a distinction, in addition to a number of West African languages), they were able even at the age of five or six to distinguish between the two.

[...]

Janice Jackson is especially annoyed and frustrated by commentators who disrespect African-American English by equating it with "street slang or the jargon of the day" instead of recognizing it as a dialect defined by its own coherent grammar and pronunciation rules. "They think it's the hip-hop talk," she says. "Yo baby! Tha's def! Wha' sup? Hip-hop has about as much to do with African-American English as surfer dude or Valley girl jargon has to do with standard American English. If somebody said, 'We're going to teach your kid to speak standard English,' nobody would say, 'Oh my God, they're going to teach him how to say tubular.' But when they said African-American English. . . ."

[...]

Only by moving beyond the deeply ingrained negative attitudes of the past, the speech researchers agree, it is possible to appreciate the multi-faceted subtleties of all human language. "Language is not just a matter of words and sounds and syntax," says Seymour. "It's an identity issue, it's a social issue. It's very complicated."
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aabidano »

I'll take her word for it, education and assimilation is still the path out.

Showing up at a job interview and only being able to speak surfer dude or trailer park jargon isn't any better.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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"Ms. Jackson" if yer nasty.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aslanna »

Funkmasterr wrote:I guess I always assumed there was more culture and less fucking ignorance on this board than there is, clearly. It is kinda odd that I subject myself to it too, since in my real life I would never associate with nerdy white folk that can't stand rap/hip hop and love computers, it's just not my style.
Yeah we're uncultured ignorant white nerds because we don't like shitty music.. Er I'm sorry.. I meant rap/hip hop. Get over yourself. While I know there are some people out there that can listen to, and like, every genre of music I'm sure the majority of people have a genre they don't like. Heck, You too might even be one of those people that don't like everything.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Spang »

Aabidano wrote:I'll take her word for it, education and assimilation is still the path out.

Showing up at a job interview and only being able to speak surfer dude or trailer park jargon isn't any better.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Aslanna wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:I guess I always assumed there was more culture and less fucking ignorance on this board than there is, clearly. It is kinda odd that I subject myself to it too, since in my real life I would never associate with nerdy white folk that can't stand rap/hip hop and love computers, it's just not my style.
Yeah we're uncultured ignorant white nerds because we don't like shitty music.. Er I'm sorry.. I meant rap/hip hop. Get over yourself. While I know there are some people out there that can listen to, and like, every genre of music I'm sure the majority of people have a genre they don't like. Heck, You too might even be one of those people that don't like everything.
The problem isn't you not liking it, it's you not being able to see, or at the very least articulate, the difference between something you don't like and something that is bad. For instance, I like little to no heavy metal, but I can acknowledge the talent that many of the musicians involved in them have.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:
Aabidano wrote:I'll take her word for it, education and assimilation is still the path out.

Showing up at a job interview and only being able to speak surfer dude or trailer park jargon isn't any better.
Image
Yeah, the white corporate "You need to talk, act, look and dress our way to make it in life" attitude is one of many changes corporations are going to have to make in the coming years, imo.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aabidano »

Funkmasterr wrote:Yeah, the white corporate "You need to talk, act, look and dress our way to make it in life" attitude is one of many changes corporations are going to have to make in the coming years, imo.
Resistance is futile!

Seriously, the people (Juggalos come to mind at the moment) that don't have the ability to conform and function in wider society really don't need to worry about acceptance as they in general don't have the motivation to get a foot in the door.

It's not simply the language, it's the whole attitude and lifestyle that go with it. Not sure I believe it but could certainly see the argument that someone was intentionally using it to "keep the black man down", as opposed to just making money. It's working very well.

The "guns, bitches & bling" attitude is basically incompatible with normal social function outside a ghetto-criminal environment. Things are no different in any part of the world though the faces change.

Spoke with an old friend of my mother's when I was in St Louis last week, she and her husband were born to Alabama sharecroppers. Busting their butts and functioning in society has made them quite wealthy.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Spang wrote:
Chidoro wrote:sorry spang, looks like you soaked up all of the white guilt on this board
Image
exactly how you are seen by everyone but yourself apparently. good find
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Chidoro wrote:exactly how you are seen by everyone but yourself apparently. good find
Awareness is not guilt.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Spang wrote:
Chidoro wrote:exactly how you are seen by everyone but yourself apparently. good find
Awareness is not guilt.
no it's not
that doesn't change the fact that you're filled to the brim w/ white guilt
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Chidoro wrote:that doesn't change the fact that you're filled to the brim w/ white guilt
Show me this alleged fact.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Spang wrote:
Chidoro wrote:that doesn't change the fact that you're filled to the brim w/ white guilt
Show me this alleged fact.
pull out a mirror and look into it already you dope
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Chidoro wrote:pull out a mirror and look into it already you dope
In other words: You're full of shit.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Spang wrote:
Chidoro wrote:pull out a mirror and look into it already you dope
In other words: You're full of shit.
whatever you say WG
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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Chidoro wrote:whatever you say WG
White Gringo?
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Aabidano wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:Yeah, the white corporate "You need to talk, act, look and dress our way to make it in life" attitude is one of many changes corporations are going to have to make in the coming years, imo.
Resistance is futile!

Seriously, the people (Juggalos come to mind at the moment) that don't have the ability to conform and function in wider society really don't need to worry about acceptance as they in general don't have the motivation to get a foot in the door.

It's not simply the language, it's the whole attitude and lifestyle that go with it. Not sure I believe it but could certainly see the argument that someone was intentionally using it to "keep the black man down", as opposed to just making money. It's working very well.

The "guns, bitches & bling" attitude is basically incompatible with normal social function outside a ghetto-criminal environment. Things are no different in any part of the world though the faces change.

Spoke with an old friend of my mother's when I was in St Louis last week, she and her husband were born to Alabama sharecroppers. Busting their butts and functioning in society has made them quite wealthy.
I don't think you're getting it. The focus I a corporation only caring about itself and what its old white board members think, instead of a much heavier focus on employees has to go.

Tattoos should have zero bearing on someone getting a desk job, even if their face is tatted. That's just one issue as an example, just because someone looks an talks different doesn't mean shit about their ability to perform a job, regardless of what your sheltered conservative white upbringing may have led you to believe.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Boogahz »

What do tats have to do with anything?
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aabidano »

Funkmasterr wrote:Tattoos should have zero bearing on someone getting a desk job, even if their face is tatted. That's just one issue as an example, just because someone looks an talks different doesn't mean shit about their ability to perform a job, regardless of what your sheltered conservative white upbringing may have led you to believe.
Sorry for the run on sentence - I understand what you're saying and agree with you theoretically - but how many people do you know with lots of facial & other exposed tattoos, or who can't speak non-ghetto english that have the skills and knowledge to walk in off the street and function in a skilled environment, even those that don't require a degree? How many with a 4 year Nursing, technical or other degree; or equivalent documented skills?

The language and tattoos are a symptom of the base problem, not a reason of themselves. Both can be overcome if someone chooses too.

I've been denied a job due to a 30 year old tattoo on the back of my hand that I've never gotten around to getting removed. Fair? Possibly not, but it's not their fault it's there either.

Sheltered upbringing? This coming from the guy from Minnetonka?
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aslanna »

Funkmasterr wrote:The problem isn't you not liking it, it's you not being able to see, or at the very least articulate, the difference between something you don't like and something that is bad. For instance, I like little to no heavy metal, but I can acknowledge the talent that many of the musicians involved in them have.
Why do I have to justify anything? Shitty 'music' is like pornography. I might not be able to define it but I know it when I see (hear) it.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Boogahz wrote:What do tats have to do with anything?
It's a bit of a derail, but since homey doesn't seem to see that the bullshit corporate attitude he is defending is exactly that, I went off on a bit of a tangent.

And btw, I may have grew up in the suburbs, but I'm a long shot from sheltered. I don't know your personal experience either, but you're certainly talking like a successful white dude that has zero fucking clue about the people and environment you're talking about.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aabidano »

Funkmasterr wrote:I don't know your personal experience either, but you're certainly talking like a successful white dude that has zero fucking clue about the people and environment you're talking about.
I am a reasonably successful white dude, and have a very good idea of the people and environment you're talking about; likely having spent more years than you've been alive around it.

It's an ingrained multi-generational issue largely based on a victim mentality; despite what it seems like in many cases from the outside. I know a number of people trapped in it and a couple who've crawled out of it. Plus a couple who've fallen into it from the middle class via alcohol, drugs and idolizing "thug-life".
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Winnow »

Most (99%) of rap is stupid and annoying in a no talent ass-clown sort of way. I'd be impressed if there was someone out there that could rap using the haiku format instead of using basic, dub as dirt, rhymes.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Canelek »

Not a hiphop fan, and generally think that the message to young people is anything but positive. However, It is still art and music. Just not generally in a positive way.

As to Jay-Z, I recall some budweiser commercial where he is basically showing off how wealthy and popular he is. That is pretty bush-league. Damn shame that so many of this nation's youth think that a $3000 gold chain and non-utilitarian vehicle rims are more important than raising their children or at least paying for child support.

Show and tell is soooo kindergarten!

In summation:

Hip Hop is indeed music, and an art form.

(From what I have seen/heard) hip hop sends a terrible message to dumbass kids of the current generation.

*meh*
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

While Jay Z is arrogant as fuck and I don't like his recent stuff so much, he has made some good music over the years.

Here are a couple of songs that I think are really good and absolutely are not what you are all describing rap to be, I don't expect anyone to listen to any of it, but meh.

Pharoahe Monch - Evolve

The Black Opera - Gods Camera

Nas - Daughters

Lupe Fiasco - Around My Way (Freedom Ain't Free)

Blackstar - Thieves in the Night

Binary Star - Reality Check

Jean Grae - U&Me&EveryoneWeKnow

Evidence, Zion I, The Grouch & Eli - Amp Live For President


That's just a few off the top of my head again, there are dozens of rap artists out there like these folks above...
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Spang »

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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Same with the ones I listed :)

Some good ones you have there though (Ballad of the Black Gold is probably my least favorite song from that album). I just read a really long article about Mos/Yasiin Bey the other day. There was a lot I didn't know about him, including that Umi is the word for mother, and that his mom has done most of his management over the years.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Canelek »

Didn't mean to give the impression that I believe ALL hip hop sends a bad message...just what I have been exposed to. :)

I'm more of a Kool Moe Dee guy.... :shock:

For reference, I enjoy hardcore punk, various Jazz genres and random Indie rock (re: Metric). Still dig some progressive rock as well, such as Porcupine Tree, Opeth, Rush and Yes.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Aslanna »

I'm pretty sure I acknowledged it as music. Just shitty music. You don't have to agree with me that's fine. It wont hurt my feelings any.

And I also gave examples of "non-white man music" that's just as shitty. So that proves I'm not a racist!
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Canelek »

Omgraceest!!!
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Winnow »

99% of rap sucks.

I thought about some rap that I do like and know why I like it.

SNAP! Released their debut album, "World Power" in 1990. The reason it works is because rap is just a piece of what makes their songs good. The beats are outstanding and they had an awesome backup singer that added just as much as the rapper to the music. The rapping also didn't dominate most of the songs.

Power

No need for swearing, great beat, rap takes up less than 25% of the song.

"Bang the base! Turn up the treble!"

Mary had a Little Boy

A lessor known song. Video dancing dated! Rap less than 25%, great background vocals, song has a story. It doesn't matter that it's a simple story.

Rhythm is a Dancer

Different album. Incredible beat. Rap is almost an afterthought in this song. That's the way it should be!

Seems rap is best when the there's some effort put into the entire song and rap doesn't dominate the song.

---

C & C Music Factory: Gonna Make You Sweat

Similar formula although more mainstream...rap lines understandable and definitely add to the song but less than 15% of the song...maybe I just like songs where a black female singer can really belt out the lyrics!

-----

Also,

Neneh Cherry: Buffalo Stance > Nicki Minaj

Notice, besides rapping, Neneh can actually sing! No Auto tunes here! As a bonus, she's pretty.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by miir »

Are you fucking serious bringing up Snap in a thread about rap/hip hop?

That's even more comical than Fair trying to use 'trance' to describe Death Grips.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Winnow »

miir wrote:Are you fucking serious bringing up Snap in a thread rap/hip hop?

That's even more comical than Fair trying to use 'trance' to describe Death Grips.
Dead serious.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Just let him blab. He clearly has no idea of what is out there as far as rap music, and he's far from the only one in this thread.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Winnow »

The emo/auto-tune duo have spoken!
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by miir »

I was complaining about lazy producers using autotune years before you even knew what the fuck autotune was.
And you're the only person who ever talks about 'emo' music here.

And quite frankly, your taste in music is fucking horrible.
You opinions on current music makes it obvious that you haven't listened to anything in the past 15 years other than mainstream pop radio.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Boogahz »

Snap was just crappy pop, it was nowhere near hip-hop/rap at the time it was released. It was the "I know a black person" group for people that were afraid to even hear the message being sent out by rappers at the time.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Winnow »

"bad taste" is only relative to another person's opinion. Here's mine.

rap didn't get better because of cursing and fake gangster talk:

I fucked your sister because she's a ho!
bla blah blah ho rhymes with yo!

I popped a cap in my own ass
that makes me too legit to quit smoking grass

my crack-ho mom beat me growing up
angst angst angst what's sup!

<auto-tuned>peace biatches! Buy my next album! </auto-tuned>
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oh yeah, rap is awesome these days.
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by miir »

Winnow, if your intent was to make yourself look like a fucking idiot in this thread.... Congratulations...
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

Post by Winnow »

Yeah, I'd like to apologize. There is a rap song made later than 1990 that I do like:

Weird Al: White and Nerdy

Finally some rap lyrics that are good!

Seems plenty agree with me...72 million + views!
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Re: Hip-Hop on Trial: A Debate

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