Salary Negotiation

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Leonaerd
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Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

I'm about to get moved up from intern to full time officially. This means going from hourly pay to salaried. I've never been in this position so I'm looking for tips on how to maximize my bankroll here.

A little background: I work as a "Jr Network Engineer." Essentially, I do tier one maintenance and projects. I oversee a lot of our switching infrastructure, make minor improvements, monitor our syslog, troubleshoot small issues, manage equipment moves, circuit failovers, etc. I have no credentials other than my CCNA. The rest of the team loves me, I'm earnest, constantly getting more responsibility and in general, I get shit done. This is a relatively small, agile company and without me, there would be a void to be filled.

Currently, I get paid much less than a typical industry professional. I'm sure they'll try to keep me from getting too big of a raise due to my lack of credentials, and to counter this I figure I can bring up examples of the wages somebody who does similar work typically earns.

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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Sueven »

I feel like, usually, the biggest leverage questions in a salary negotiation are: How much does your employer need you, and how many other options do you have?

Without knowing all that much about your situation, and without having the first fucking clue about what you do (what the hell is a circuit failover):

Question A seems pretty positive for you. Odds are they don't desperately need you, because you're entry level, and no matter how much they like you, entry level folks are fungible in the current economy (no matter how much they protest otherwise). But, employers still do want good entry level people, and they KNOW that you're a good entry level person, and that works in your favor. It'd be a pain in the ass to go through the work of finding somebody else good and nobody would be happy about it. Plus, your relative under-credentialing works in your favor-- they would probably want to hire a fully-credentialed person if they were to hire somebody they didn't have experience with, and those credentials would cost money.

Question B seems pretty negative for you. Here, your under-credentialing works against you. Other companies might very well be reluctant to hire you without having had the same positive internship experience that your current employer has, thereby limiting your options. Plus, it sounds like you like the job and wouldn't be hugely interested in restarting elsewhere, anyway.

So: My best guess is that you can squeeze some extra money out of them, but that you won't be able to vault yourself up into another stratosphere of pay. I don't know what salaries are in your industry, but my very general guess is that you could get a few thousand more than what they initially offer you. (It is also possible that you will move to negotiate and they will just say "No. You have our offer. That's our offer.") Focus on: How good your work has been and how much value you bring to the company, and point out that the standard employee who does your work gets paid substantially more than what they're offering you.

Good luck! Salary negotiations are scary.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Winnow »

Sueven wrote:I feel like, usually, the biggest leverage questions in a salary negotiation are: How much does your employer need you, and how many other options do you have?
That's it right there. It's still a crappy economy out there with lots of people looking for jobs they're overqualified for. If they let you go, what would you do? Would things come to a grinding halt for the company if you quit? I don't mean to be negative but when it comes to these things it's extremely important you understand how the company really sees you. Typically, most employees can be let go at the drop of a hat, even if it causes some temporary inconvenience to the company.

That said, if at all possible, try to find out what the pay range is for your job (not the national one, but what your company pays). As a new employee, just try not to hit the bottom of the scale. Most employers want some headroom in order to give raises, etc. Ask for something you'd feel comfortable working for, somewhere in the middle of the salary range (keeping in mind what the alternative is...be it unemployment, back to school, whatever) and then accept whatever counter offer they give you if you don't get it.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

what the hell is a circuit failover
You "break" some vital system on purpose in order to simulate a disaster scenario, like if a ninja infiltrated your data center and went katana all over your fiber.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Canelek »

At least in technology, the best way to increase salary is to go to another company.

That said, it is often better to get more experience at the job you have before rolling the dice in the open market. Obviously, if you are unhappy you can look for a new job while still at your current company.

Not sure what the requirements are these days for network engineers, but for DBAs, I'll usually require 3-5 years experience working with SQL Server in production for a non-junior position. Intangibles such as personality and excellent work ethic can make up for some experience deficiency. Most of us had to "earn our stripes" making much less than we wanted while gaining that critical experience.

Sort of like Vex Thal key farming...
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Winnow »

Canelek wrote:
Sort of like Vex Thal key farming...

All that Vex Thal farming produced two things for our guild. Gak's SK neck thingy and my Fungi Regen Tunic! I think we made two trips there after all that farming.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Aabidano »

Winnows' last paragraph above sums up my view. They know and like you, if they make a reasonably close offer to a realistic market salary take it and build experience & resume with them. If they don't, take it anyway to pay the bills until you find something better. I've been told a lower rate, stop-gap salary doesn't hurt you at the negotiating table too much.

Later you'll have more leverage, may turn out you really like it and want to stay put. I took my current job (sort of) 11(?) years ago, fully intending to quit :)
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

It sounds like I should be the one to open the dialogue and name my price, then accept whatever their counter-offer is.

Well, what if they begin the dialogue and make the offer and it's too low for my liking? Am I risking future leverage by counter-offering and subsequently getting shot down? I feel like I should counter offer no matter what, even if I like the offer. It shows some sense of self-worth, right?
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Boogahz »

Make sure your expectations are realistic. Wanting to make a lot of money isn't the right way. Gain an understanding of what similar, truly similar, positions are paying. Then look at what experience the people in those positions brought to the table, whether it is based on education or on-the-job knowledge. How do you compare to them? Be prepared to chop something off of that. Understand that they can just pull in another hourly worker for less, and be more prepared to explain why they don't want to do that versus preparing to ask for more money.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Sueven »

I assume they will make you an initial offer. After they do, you should say something that indicates that you love the company and want to be there, but you feel like you deserve a few thousand more for a few good, well-supported reasons. Don't ask for so much more that they'll think you're ridiculous. They'll come back to you with something-- either "sure," "no," or "how about this mid-range number," at which point you should probably just say "ok, great, thanks."
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Siji »

Being lower to mid range pay scale works in your favor when it comes time to cut numbers. For every one of 'you' there are a thousand other, more qualified people wishing they had your job. Have self worth, but have intelligence on the economy and job market too.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Xouqoa »

If you're moving from a part time intern position, I'd be cautious about asking for more than what they offer you. Mainly due to the fact that you're pretty low on the totem pole. Keep in mind that if you perform well, you should be able to advance quickly. (As long as the company/management is decent, anyway.)

If they are asking you what your salary range is, then yeah, I'd find out what the position low/high end is, and ask for something in the middle.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

So, it looks like my raise will happen shortly after the end of February, when the year's budget is finalized. I'll still be a contract employee (instead of full time) due to budget details / internal bureaucracy. But my boss wants to keep me happy and assured me that I have no need to worry about getting let go. In fact, we recently fired 15% of our staff :( and my department was completely untouched.

The budget will change again in 2013, at which point I'll be in prime position for a salary.

So for now.... no health insurance, etc.

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with how this is going. This means:

- I can work whenever the hell I want and take days off whenever the hell I want, as many times as I want, ad infinitum.
- I continue to get overtime pay. On most of the weeks we make DC trips out to Chicago, I work up to 70 hours.
- Did I mention I can roll into work at noon and nobody will care?
- I don't need health insurance for the next year. I'm healthy as fuck.
- Sky's the limit for 2013. My skills are very marketable and I could be anywhere.

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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Tyek »

[quote=
- I don't need health insurance for the next year. I'm healthy as fuck.[/quote]



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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Canelek »

Sounds like a good gig. However, it may be wise to invest in some health insurance...just sayin'.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

It would only be a year uninsured. I haven't been to the doc in years as it is (beside physicals).

How much is health insurance anyway? A billion dollars a year?
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Boogahz »

Health Insurance is only important when you need it...and nobody will sell it to you because you do.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Lynks »

Leonaerd wrote:How much is health insurance anyway? A billion dollars a year?
A lot cheaper if you ever get into an accident.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Aabidano »

You're looking for "catastrophic event coverage", or however they word it. Accidents, stroke, etc... Not the day-to-day sinus infection-type stuff.

Young and in good health they're relatively inexpensive contrasted to even a short hospital stay.

Might be tempting but don't lie on the application, they've got whole teams looking out for that sort of thing as soon as you file a claim. A cousins' title is "forensic accountant", she gets paid really well to sift around for that type of stuff. HIPAA is largely meaningless as most of your data except direct Dr. records & diagnoses are available to anyone with a checkbook and a "legitimate interest".
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Aslanna »

If you're really racking in that sort of overtime it would be dumb not to invest a couple hundred a month (or whatever it is) to pick up health insurance on your own dime for this year regardless of how healthy you think you are.

I'd also look into retirement options such as opening a Roth IRA and doing the maximum yearly $5000 contribution. It's never too early!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

If you're really racking in that sort of overtime it would be dumb not to invest a couple hundred a month (or whatever it is) to pick up health insurance on your own dime for this year regardless of how healthy you think you are.
Okay okay I'll do it. But I need a new car first. And a gaming rig. And these Oreos... and I like these shoes over here.......
I'd also look into retirement options such as opening a Roth IRA and doing the maximum yearly $5000 contribution. It's never too early!
Great advice, but I don't know if I'll be making enough for this to be feasible yet. It's beyond my accounting skills. I have student loans to pay off as well. Should I get a financial advisor to narrow my focus?

Edit: Also, I'm not convinced a retirement will be something that people do by the time I'm old enough to benefit from the investment. Our fiat currency will be monopoly money by then, right? And if I'm wrong, I'll have $5,000 / year saved up that I can just invest to carry me to my grave.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Aslanna »

Ok maybe too early for the investing and all that but I'd at least get medical insurance on your own to carry you through the next year. One accident (you know.. the kind you can't plan for hence them being called accidents) and you could be looking at a bunch of medical bills that could take years to pay off. If you are in good health it shouldn't really cost that much especially if you go for a higher deductible.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Sueven »

Look into the details of your student loans. It is likely that putting money into them is the smartest financial choice you can make. Many student loans have fairly high interest rates-- 6-8% or so. Paying them off, then, is basically like earning a guaranteed 6-8% return on an investment. That's a pretty damn good guarantee, and it gets you out from under a debt that you can't discharge. If there are no weird restrictions on your repayment abilities, it's probably a smart choice to sink as much money as you can spare into them.

Investing money into retirement accounts has the advantage of frequently exempting that money from taxation, which is a big plus. Even moreso if you have an employer match. But your skepticism about the future of such plans is well-founded. Investing for retirement is basically gambling that the current financial/political system will continue more or less undisturbed for the next 40 or 50 years, which I personally think is a bigger gamble than is usually recognized.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Avestan »

There has actually been a massive amount of research into negotiating strategies. Without diving too much into it, the major concept is that you always want to have something called your BATNA (best alternative to negotiated agreement).

You should never go into a negotiation without an alternative. The best BATNA is a concrete offer to do something else, but it might also be quitting. Regardless, you should enter into the discussion with a price point at which you will choose the alternative and stick to it. Do not adopt a BATNA lightly - make sure you believe it. If you do, will will project strength and end up in a much better place, much more consistently. It takes real work to develop this alternative, but it is well worth the effort.

Live it, love it:
http://www.negotiations.com/articles/best-alternative/
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Avestan wrote:There has actually been a massive amount of research into negotiating strategies. Without diving too much into it, the major concept is that you always want to have something called your BATNA (best alternative to negotiated agreement).

You should never go into a negotiation without an alternative. The best BATNA is a concrete offer to do something else, but it might also be quitting. Regardless, you should enter into the discussion with a price point at which you will choose the alternative and stick to it. Do not adopt a BATNA lightly - make sure you believe it. If you do, will will project strength and end up in a much better place, much more consistently. It takes real work to develop this alternative, but it is well worth the effort.

Live it, love it:
http://www.negotiations.com/articles/best-alternative/
Just like buying a car or house. If you are prepared to walk, the ball is always in your court. You win even if you lose, assuming that your alternative is at least equal to what you already have or are trying for.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Funkmasterr »

I'm thinking about doing this myself. I've been unemployed since last September though and have hardly been able to get a interview, so my situation is different. I've got a interview with probably the best tech company in the state, but in the email I got they stated the starting salary is pretty low (only 5k/year more than I'm getting on unemployment, and I can't pay my bills as is). They did state that after a year pay can significantly go up, so there's that to look forward to, but I'm thinking of trying to ask for 5k above what they stated.

I obviously don't have the luxury of walking if they say no, so if it comes to it I'll get another part time job. The reason I got lucky here is a friend works in HR for this company. I'd probably not have the interview otherwise, so I don't want to push too far. I guess if anyone has any advice I'd like to hear it, but I'm going to give It my best go.

I'm trying not to get too excited, but the company has some awesome perks. Free yoga classes and massages at work, dog friendly, free breakfast every day, free soda/red bull/coffee and beer. Arcade machines, a 250 seat rock band theater, unlimited sick days on top of vacation time, etc. That's far more than I've ever had at any other company, I really hope it works out.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Zaelath »

I'd want to know what the churn rate was on starters if the pay is low... but they do sound like a company that attempts to keep it's employees (perks aren't there because they love you), so I'd think you'll be in the bargaining position in 12 months time.

Best of luck with the interview, took me ~9 months to get an interview in MN and the economy was better, but you only need the one!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Winnow »

You're really not in a bargaining position. Take what you can get and then impress them after you're hired. You need your foot in the door more than anything. After that, you'll be able to afford fancy graphics cards again!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Funkmasterr »

Zaelath wrote:I'd want to know what the churn rate was on starters if the pay is low... but they do sound like a company that attempts to keep it's employees (perks aren't there because they love you), so I'd think you'll be in the bargaining position in 12 months time.

Best of luck with the interview, took me ~9 months to get an interview in MN and the economy was better, but you only need the one!
Thanks! (and winnow too). And Yeah MN sucks. I need to get the crap outta here.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Boogahz »

Austin is leading the nation in job creation since 2004!

http://www.statesman.com/business/austi ... 55634.html

Now Apple is probably building their US hub here with almost 4k positions too.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by masteen »

Too bad the vast majority of them are minimum wage shit jobs without benefits.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/12/news/ec ... /index.htm
http://www.economist.com/node/21526209
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Politics ... d=14161124

Also, that rate of job creation does not keep pace with population growth. So Texas unemployment is still rising AND they lead the nation in uninsured workers.

Tis truly miraculous. :roll:
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Boogahz »

Lrn2reedfoo

I never referred to the State of Texas. Rick Perry does jack and shit in Austin, unless you count draining thousands of dollars more than needed from the State for rent at his temporary residence. The majority of the jobs here are tech related, and you will make more than minimum wage even at a Best Buy.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Aslanna »

I remember minimum wage being $3.35 an hour when I was working summer jobs. I'm old :(
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Aslanna wrote:I remember minimum wage being $3.35 an hour when I was working summer jobs. I'm old :(
4.12 for me!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Canelek »

Aslanna wrote:I remember minimum wage being $3.35 an hour when I was working summer jobs. I'm old :(
Yup! I made a robust 4$/hr during that wage point. Yeah!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Knarlz »

Aslanna wrote:I remember minimum wage being $3.35 an hour when I was working summer jobs. I'm old :(

$1.25! at my first part time job in high school. That was 4 gallons of gas or 3 packs of smokes but only half of a 12 in. vinyl album ( aka LP ) or a third of a 4 track tape!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

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And Knarlz still maintains his Father Time status! :D Sup man! :)
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Aslanna »

$1.25! That was in like.. 1964!

Not seeing any $4.12 on the list. I'm going to have to call shenanigans!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Aslanna wrote:$1.25! That was in like.. 1964!

Not seeing any $4.12 on the list. I'm going to have to call shenanigans!
Holy Shit, it was actually 4.25! I've thought it was 4.12 for like.... ever. Mind blown!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Zaelath »

Knarlz wrote:
Aslanna wrote:I remember minimum wage being $3.35 an hour when I was working summer jobs. I'm old :(

$1.25! at my first part time job in high school. That was 4 gallons of gas or 3 packs of smokes but only half of a 12 in. vinyl album ( aka LP ) or a third of a 4 track tape!
3 packs of smokes here can get you 2 CDs, 3 out of the Top 10 at a retailer, 6 gallons of gas, nothing can get you 4 track tapes though ><
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Demags »

Cigarettes are currency there? Wow it really is a prison colony! :lol:
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Funkmasterr
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Funkmasterr »

^haha.

You guys are fuckin old. I don't know what I got paid for my first real job. It was in like 94, bussing tables. Definitely min wage, though.
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Zaelath
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Zaelath »

Makes the $6/hour I got in '88 as a bank clerk sound like a motza.

The $60/hour I make now makes minimum wage sound like backdoor slavery (at least the slaves got room and board, can you pay for room and board in the US on $4/hour?)
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Winnow
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Winnow »

mine was 3.35. I later got paid 3.60 at B.Dalton's Software ect in 1987 because I fucking rocked and deserved the extra .25!

1st job: Paperboy (that's slave labor, think I only got paid on tips

2nd job: Bagged Groceries. Guessing I got 3.35 but can't remember (bought my girlfriend some cassettes with my coins and used the rest to fill my '67 Mustang Convertible with Gas!)

Job one 14 years old (also setup a lawn mowing business with a friend which was under the table)

Job two 16 year old

Side note: B Dalton's Software, Etc. was a cool job back in 1987. I could check out one piece of software we sold each night, bring it back and shrink wrap it to be sold. I just happened to be running CPU BBS (Central Pirating Headquarters) on my C-64 at the time. How convenient! Don't get all uppity on me. Back then .001% of anyone knew how to pirate/hack/phreak using sprint/MCI/metro codes and we had 300bps modems and later 1200bps (that's bauds per second = about 50,000x slower than my current connection...you could watch the data stream line by line across the screen. It took 30 minutes to copy a single sided 364kb 5.25 floppy over the phone) I'd hex edit the games to include my BBS phone #, not something you'd do these days! I'd also hex edit games like Ultima III and build bridges across lava to cheat!

Anyway, it's always good if a job has "perks".

My work ethic and piracy started early with me. Moral: You can work hard and also pirate!
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Leonaerd
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

bump

Just got an offer letter from my company. I am officially a Network Engineer.

:D
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Winnow
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Winnow »

Leonaerd wrote:bump

Just got an offer letter from my company. I am officially a Network Engineer.

:D
Grats!
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Funkmasterr »

Congrats! I just got a job after almost two years of being unemployed, too. I'm doing mapping, amongst other things for a SaaS company. They actually gave me 10k above what I asked for, which I didn't think actually happened in real life.
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Tyek »

Funkmasterr wrote:Congrats! I just got a job after almost two years of being unemployed, too. I'm doing mapping, amongst other things for a SaaS company. They actually gave me 10k above what I asked for, which I didn't think actually happened in real life.
Congrats to both of you.
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Leonaerd
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Leonaerd »

bump

Interviewing with the networking team of another company. They are desperate for talent (and the perks are insaaane) so I figure why not get a good idea of how much leverage I have.

Anybody else ever been in a similar situation while still employed?
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Post by Aslanna »

For what purpose? To have the new place make an offer then use that as leverage for a raise or counteroffer at the first place? Doesn't seem like a wise career decision.

If you're just not happy with your current job then no harm no foul. Assuming you've been there awhile. Don't want to be seen as a job jumper!
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