I've been a vegetarian for two days.

[Spang]

Further, what is your alternative revenue stream to replace the one that goes away when hunting does?

That's not my problem.

It's paid for most of the conservation efforts since the '30s afaik, self serving or not it impacts a lot of areas that aren't hunting. You aren't willing to pay a 15 percent surcharge at Whole Foods to make it up, considering you the one who wants the change to happen?

Were abolitionists responsible for coming up with an alternative revenue stream for the slave trade or farming industries? Not that I'm aware of, but, if I'm understanding you correctly, they should have been?

[Canelek]

Hunting...human slave trade...

A bit of a reach there...just a bit...

[Aslanna]

Not sure why you're arguing with him. He's blind to anything outside his narrow view of the world. I posted actual studies to refute his "vegetarians don't get diseases at the same rate as meat-eaters" bullshit and he totally ignored it.

Ask him if he's stopped taking any sort of medication or using just about most cosmetic items (soap, shampoo, etc) that have been tested on animals. I'm going to guess no.

[Canelek]

soap, shampoo, etc

That is a bit of a reach as well! I am guessing patchuli.

[Spang]

Ask him if he's stopped taking any sort of medication or using just about most cosmetic items (soap, shampoo, etc) that have been tested on animals. I'm going to guess no.

And you'd be wrong. Mitchum deodorant, the stuff I apply to my underarms everyday, isn't tested on animals. Nor are Tom's of Maine products, such as their toothpaste and mouthwash, which I use both of.

[Aabidano]

Were abolitionists responsible for coming up with an alternative revenue stream for the slave trade or farming industries? Not that I'm aware of, but, if I'm understanding you correctly, they should have been?

I don't agree with the human==animal equivalence you make. Regardless, it's not a 1:1 comparison.

I'm assuming you still want habitat restoration\maintenance to happen as well as other conservation efforts currently paid for by hunters, fisherman, etc... That group has been paying for it as no one else was willing to 100 years ago.

So as the one who wants to abolish the taxes paying for something you would seem to value, what's your alternative?

[Funkmasterr]

Not to mention in the Midwest, the deer population would be wildly out of control if hunting went away. It would become a problem.

[Spang]

Not to mention in the Midwest, the deer population would be wildly out of control if hunting went away. It would become a problem.

Re-introduce wolves into the population. Problem solved.

[Aabidano]

-introduce wolves into the population. Problem solved.

Only if you kill off all the humans, restore all the other pieces of the puzzle our ancestors broke and raze the cities while you're at it.

Are you willing to be the first into the euthanization chamber?

[Boogahz]

The wolves could eat the vegans, since they would be up at the top of the man made food chain!

[Winnow]

The wolves could eat the vegans, since they would be up at the top of the man made food chain!

Hell yes, the smelly vegans would be the first to attract the wolves and they'd be easy prey as they try to pet the wolves right before their throats are ripped out by the animals that really don't give a shit if they're eating vegans or not.

[Spang]

Hell yes, the smelly vegans would be the first to attract the wolves...

Wolves prey on ungulate creatures.

[Winnow]

And smelly vegans because they're easy prey.

[Aabidano]

Plus a vegan's impact by acreage & resource use is far larger, you've nominated yourself based on your own logic.

[Sylvus]

Hell yes, the smelly vegans would be the first to attract the wolves...

Wolves prey on ungulate creatures.

Wolves primarily prey on ungulate creatures. They occasionally prey on humans. They also exhibit omnivorous tendencies, kind of like most people do. Fancy that!

[Spang]

They occasionally prey on humans.

Very rarely. Humans are more likely to die from a toaster than a wolf.

[Sylvus]

I'm not particularly concerned with my chances of being killed by a wolf. I'm sure that chance is much lower than your (or any vegan's) chance of getting cancer, diabetes or heart disease.. I just wanted to point out to you that, as usual, you're making blanket statements that are far from absolute truths.

[Aabidano]

Wolves primarily prey on ungulate creatures.

Not to say they don't prey on deer as they do, doesn't the bulk of their diet in many areas consist of mice & such? Large prey being a cold weather almost-exception?

[Sylvus]

I was assuming he was misquoting the Wikipedia page on Gray Wolves, which uses that language. Ultimately it says that they are not very picky eaters and subsist on diets of pretty much anything that's available including mice, ungulates, carrion, fruits and vegetables, etc.

[Spang]

Plus a vegan's impact by acreage & resource use is far larger...

That's completely untrue.

[Aslanna]

That's completely untrue.

Just like all your "facts" in this thread. Fabrications of a delusional and/or brainwashed mind.

[Spang]

That's completely untrue.

Just like all your "facts" in this thread. Fabrications of a delusional and/or brainwashed mind.

What do vegans and vegetarians eat? Plants. What do so-called omnivores eat? Plants, too. Plus, animals. What do you think they feed those animals? Fucking plants. Seriously, I'm not making this shit up.

[Aabidano]

That's completely untrue.

Just like all your "facts" in this thread. Fabrications of a delusional and/or brainwashed mind.

What do vegans and vegetarians eat? Plants. What do so-called omnivores eat? Plants, too. Plus, animals. What do you think they feed those animals? Fucking plants. Seriously, I'm not making this shit up.

Again, as a philosophical stance you're fine, practically speaking it doesn't work out. Unless of course you've moved to a non-industrialized commune. Between acreage tilled, fuel used, manufacturing of equipment to do so, etc.. Your diet is more impacting overall than mine.

Kind of like curbside and most other non-industrial recycling; while very profitable, actually consumes more resources than it saves. And then there's hybrid cars in a similar situation.

On feed, I can't hang out in a field eating grass for 6 months, in the process turning myself into 80lbs of tasty mutton.

++, even at the feedlot the feeds fed to animals while similar, aren't generally something you could actually digest and aren't handled in at all the same way.

[Spang]

Between acreage tilled, fuel used, manufacturing of equipment to do so, etc.. Your diet is more impacting overall than mine.

Wrong. My diet doesn't require the growing of plants to be consumed by animals. Nor does it require the mass breeding of said animals, nor the mass slaughter of them. Not eating animals is better for you, the animals, and the planet.

[Aslanna]

Just like all your "facts" in this thread. Fabrications of a delusional and/or brainwashed mind.

What do vegans and vegetarians eat? Plants. What do so-called omnivores eat? Plants, too. Plus, animals. What do you think they feed those animals? Fucking plants. Seriously, I'm not making this shit up.

You are. Although I wasn't talking about your latest tirade whatever it's about because honestly I don't really bother reading your posts too closely anymore since all I see is "blahblahblah". I was talking about everything in this fucking thread. Your grasp of "facts" is a joke. As is your selective quoting to pull out a single thing from a post, that was usually meant as sarcasm, and comment on that while ignoring everything else that was said.

[Spang]

I'm probably very close to setting the record for posting the most facts in a single thread.

[Aabidano]

Between acreage tilled, fuel used, manufacturing of equipment to do so, etc.. Your diet is more impacting overall than mine.

Wrong. My diet doesn't require the growing of plants to be consumed by animals. Nor does it require the mass breeding of said animals, nor the mass slaughter of them. Not eating animals is better for you, the animals, and the planet.

Never said it did, I was referring to overall impact. The direct animal impacts are almost entirely incidental to what you consume, the level of waste is staggering. Minus the small percentage that get ground up I to your stone ground wheat bread of course.

[pyrella]

The millions of animals killed to produce his food don't count, since you kill 1 more to have a hamburger.

I'm actually surprised he hasn't pulled an anti-abortion stance - it's either the animals he's responsible for killing don't fit within his definition, or he has...human guilt, and doesn't care about them. PEOPLE ARE ANIMALS TOO!

Vegans - Standing up for very narrowly defined values while contradicting themselves more frequently than the bible.

[Spang]

Never said it did, I was referring to overall impact. The direct animal impacts are almost entirely incidental to what you consume, the level of waste is staggering. Minus the small percentage that get ground up I to your stone ground wheat bread of course.

I don't consume stone ground wheat bread. I think you have a huge misconception of vegans.

[Spang]

The millions of animals killed to produce his food don't count...

Actually, they do count. Approximately 10 billion land animals and 18 billions marine animals are slaughtered annually for human consumption in the United States. Vegans contribute to none of that. Animals will always be slaughtered, but far less would be slaughtered if everyone was vegan.

[Spang]

I'm actually surprised he hasn't pulled an anti-abortion stance...

I support a woman's right to make her own decisions. Further, I'm a dude, so it doesn't really matter if I'm pro-choice or pro-life...I'm never going to be pregnant.

[Sueven]

My favorite Spangism on this thread is when he's listing famous vegans, and he includes:

the director of public affairs for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

Wait, so a third-level manager at a mid-tier nonprofit that advocates veganism is a vegan!? Check out the PCRM's "four food groups." It'd be embarrassing if you couldn't find a vegan middle manager at that place.

On the other hand, I'm totally down with reintroducing wolves and bears into their former ranges. It wouldn't restore the pre-colonization balance, but who cares? It's a valuable move.

[Canelek]

I remember reading about bring back wolves in some part of the Pacific NW. I'll need to look at the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife site. Most state DFWs are good about conservation, as opposed to the whining types who spout nonsense yet do not lift a fucking finger to contribute. Of course it is not just DFW and groups such as Ducks Unlimited at the forefront of wildlife and nature conservation--many fishermen and hunters volunteer their own time and reach out to fellow sportsmen in such efforts as river cleanups and restoration of once-natural creeks and streams.

For me, I am big on river cleanups. In the summer, the hillbillies and entitled lazy city kids fuck up our local rivers and riverbanks something fierce with trash. Most of these folks I have met and filled trash bags with are hardcore steelheaders and salmon dudes, but some were just glad to help out. I am not stating that vegans and the like are mitterating the environment, I am simply saying that (in my opinion) I see more vegan-pontificating than actual effort to help out the land. (i.e. spouting out misinformation helps nothing except perhaps perceived righteousness).

PS: Even if you partake in real efforts to make a positive difference, it still does not give credibility to the slightly-deranged "facts" you have presented in this oh-so-entertaining thread.

[Spang]

The millions of animals killed to produce his food...

Unless you don't eat plants, you eat my food, too. And if you don't eat my food, I feel sorry for your fucking colon.

[pyrella]

The millions of animals killed to produce his food don't count...

Actually, they do count. Approximately 10 billion land animals and 18 billions marine animals are slaughtered annually for human consumption in the United States. Vegans contribute to none of that. Animals will always be slaughtered, but far less would be slaughtered if everyone was vegan.

But you ignore the millions of animals killed anually in the process of harvesting your precious fruits and vegetables. At what point do you make the distinction between animal that's ok to kill and one that's not? Do we protect the insects? rodents? birds? Is all of the animal kingdom sacrosanct? Do we play a semantics game about the definition of the word animal? With links and facts it was provided to you showing the millions of animals that are killed in the normal process of modern (and even old timey) agriculture.

Trying to stand behind facts while being a hypocrite about them is the core failure of the persuasiveness of your arguments. You'd have better luck saying this is how you feel and providing an anecdote - as opposed to trying to bullshit everyone with easily refutable or counter argument-able 'facts'.

The most convincing thing you have posted reinforcing your stance was the C&H cartoon.

Obviously I'm biting again, and would like to know a few things about what you think/feel/know

What is it that you find most offensive or detrimental about the meat eating process? What *you* feel, not a party line, and preferably just one thing - abuse, killing, health, etc - what's the #1 priority that drives you to put forth your beliefs on others? (I know it's multi question but I just want the one driving force if there is one)

At what point should humans stop from impacting the lives of animals? This can be free form - is keeping a pet/work animal slavery? Does the use of an animal product in a fertilizer for growing crops constitute a violation of norms? Causality of environmentally impacting business/hobbies/etc that destroy ecosystems and eventually kill off animals?

What constitutes an animal? I know this is a repeat, but hey this is a different format..

What do you think would be a way a person could convince you to eat meat? This may seem like a trick question - but it's more like...what kind of argument/persuasion/money/sexual favor would be needed to change a fundamental part of your daily life? Call it a deprogramming regimen if you will. Do you feel your approach would work if we were to use it on you? If not, why would it work on us? Is it meant to be a battle of wills?


Does this series of questions break the 4th wall?

[Spang]

What is it that you find most offensive or detrimental about the meat eating process?

The purposeful torturing and slaughtering of animals prior to unnecessarily eating them.

[Tyek]

Between acreage tilled, fuel used, manufacturing of equipment to do so, etc.. Your diet is more impacting overall than mine.

Wrong. My diet doesn't require the growing of plants to be consumed by animals. Nor does it require the mass breeding of said animals, nor the mass slaughter of them. Not eating animals is better for you, the animals, and the planet.

His diet consists of Love!

[Leonaerd]

Sir, we have a confirmed troll, sir.

[Winnow]

Dipshit Vegans don't realize how many animals they kill and misplace growing their veggies. Vegans will always have double standards. They'd need to be naked in order to not support any animal killing since most normal people making everything you use in your daily lives eat meat. What give you the right to take away land to grow your crops and then kill the animals and insects that used to use that land to hunt and eat? Fucking human.

In short, vegans are asshats. The best hacker is one you've never heard about. Same with vegans. The best vegan would be one we never heard of. Strive to be that uber vegan. Better yet, sign up for some new humanities class in your college so we can move on from your last brainwashing to something else more interesting like saving African woman from having their clits cut off or something else equally as riveting.

[Aabidano]

Was waiting for the fork into homeopathy myself.

Which if you believe in it as generally presented today, a simple glass of seawater is a cure all for any ailment via the earths' water cycle. Including at least a 30c dose of my poo, as I've shat in the pacific hundreds of times while at sea.

[Sueven]

Nice try, Pyrella.

[Aslanna]

Nice try, Pyrella.

That's why you can't have an actual conversation with they guy. If you bring up any valid points and questions and he pulls out a single item to go after and ignores the rest. His selective quoting skills are well-honed in this thread.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

quoting Tim Minchin:

Hmm that's a good point, let me think for a bit
Oh wait, my mistake, that's absolute bullshit.
Science adjusts its views based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
If you show me
That, say, homeopathy works,
Then I will change my mind
I will spin on a fucking dime
I'll be embarrassed as hell,
But I will run through the streets yelling
It's a miracle! Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And whilst its memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it!

You show me that it works and how it works
And when I've recovered from the shock
I will take a compass and carve "Fancy That" on the side of my cock.

[Boogahz]

Sir, we have a confirmed troll, sir.

Spang confirmed it himself several pages ago. Now it should just be trolling the troll!

[Siji]

I will take a compass and carve "Fancy That" on the side of my cock.

I have "That's Fancy" on mine, so this is indeed a good idea.

[Spang]

Cantaloupe and Listeria: an estimated 85% of cases are from deli meats, not melons

More than a dozen deaths have been reported in the national outbreak of listeriosis linked to cantaloupes from a farm in Colorado, making it the third deadliest recorded Listeria outbreak in U.S. history, after a 1985 outbreak linked to cheese, and a 1998 outbreak linked to Sara Lee deli meat and hot dogs.

Listeria has been described as having a “Jekyll & Hyde” personality. In the natural environment, it exists as a benign “saprophyte” living off decaying vegetation. In humans, though, it is one the deadliest bacterial infections currently known, with the potential to infect the brain and kill 1 in 6 people infected despite early antibiotic treatment.

What is responsible for this transformation from an environmental soil bacterium to public health hazard? One way new human infectious diseases emerge is through a process called “exaptation,” in which an adaptation in one context coincidentally predisposes evolutionary success in an unrelated context, as was the case with Legionnaire’s disease. Legionnaire’s is caused by bacteria whose primary niche was the scum lining the rocks of natural hot springs, a warm, moist environment not unlike the human lung. The invention of machines that could mist the air with water afforded an opportunity—as evidenced by the 1976 American Legion convention outbreak in Philadelphia—for ventilation systems to condition the air with bacteria now known as Legionella. In the environment of the human respiratory tract, Legionella’s prior adaptations proved lethal in 29 of 182 cases.

Similarly, passage though animals raised for meat has been blamed for changes in pathogens that enhance human infectivity and virulence. This “exaptive” cross-host adaptation may have played a role in the emergence of diseases such as SARS and highly pathogenic strains of bird flu. The toxin that makes E. coli O157:H7 so deadly in humans apparently evolved to facilitate benign colonization in cattle. Likewise, when Listeria are ingested by livestock, adaptation to their new environment commences with the activation of a set of stress genes associated with virulence in humans. This can lead to udder invasion in mammals, resulting in mastitic milk and fecal shedding for further transmission into meat and dairy products. Compared to strains found in the environment, Listeria adapted to growth in farm animals may be more often associated with large-scale human outbreaks.

This is evidently the first time cantaloupes have been considered a culprit. The FDA/USDA Listeria risk assessment identifies deli meats as the only “very high risk” food category, accounting for an estimated 85% of cases. On a per serving basis, deli meats were identified as the riskiest, followed by hot dogs, meat pâté, unpasteurized milk, and seafood. Other dairy products, including cheese and pasteurized milk, fell into the moderate risk category, while fruits and vegetables were classified as low risk, coming in at relative risk ranking of 14 and 18, respectively (the top 13 riskiest food groups were all meat and dairy).

Of 17 outbreaks noted during a 25-year period by CDC researchers, 8 were meat, 8 were dairy, and one was from coleslaw made from cabbage contaminated with infected sheep manure. It is unclear how the cantaloupes in this case were contaminated, though early reports of the use of human sewer sludge on an adjacent field is one possibility.

To protect oneself from more typical sources of Listeria, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends that those at high risk (such as people over 50 and pregnant women) avoid hot dogs, lunch meats, cold cuts, and other deli meats unless they are recooked until “steaming hot,” to kill off any accumulated bacteria. In other words, ready-to-eat meats may not really be ready to eat.

Cantaloupes, like alfalfa sprouts, have been associated with outbreaks of foodborne illness—especially Salmonella—but it’s important to put the risk in perspective. Approximately 50 Americans are sickened in melon-borne Salmonella outbreaks every year. At the same time, the FDA estimates that 142,000 Americans are sickened every year by Salmonella from eggs.

According to a 2011 report from the Emerging Pathogens Institute, the five food poisoning sources that cause the greatest disease burden in the United States (in terms of cost, illnesses, hospitalizations, and death) are Campylobacter from poultry, Toxoplasma from pork, Listeria from deli meats, Salmonella from poultry, and then Listeria from dairy products.

The Source

[Aslanna]

I'm sure those people who died are lucky they didn't eat deli meat. Wait .. What?

Nobody was claiming that Listeria was a cantaloupe only foodborne illness so I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Oh and given the choice I'd take salmonella poisoning any day over listeria.

[Canelek]

Not sure he is trying to make a point. Seems that he just wanted to share a loosely-coupled blog (via a GP), with no personal or topical commentary. Maybe it was just just to stay sharp with php board-oriented <a href's. Gotta stay sharp! </a>


Clapclapclap

[Winnow]

spang

1) The sound of someone being hit in the face, or over the head, with a shovel. Onomatapoeic.

2. spang

A kind of ringing, clashing noise made by hitting metal objects.

spang

1) n. The sound of someone being hit in the face by a spade. v. the act of doing this.

2) n. Someone whose natural features are disfigured and contorted such that they resemble a person that has been spanged, either as a result of spanging or through poor genetic inheritance.

The name fits.

[Aabidano]

quoting Tim Minchin:

Water has memory!

It actually may, the effect only lasts about a picosecond though and might be a ghost from the previous state in the measuring equipment.